Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[Suttree]

Thus, Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghedien.

 

That is all I am going to say on this matter, I leave the rest to you.

 

So in other words without a lot of pointless typing, and faulty guesswork BS never said "Mohgidein is below Messana. Messana is below Semirhage." like you claimed. Thanks for that. In the future please don't claim author quotes as fact when they never actually happened.

 

Your analytical and comprehension skills are woefully lacking.

 

Seeing as how no one her seems to agree with you, and other posters called you out on it I wouldn't really say that is the case. Also for the record fabricating author statements to back up personnel opinion is a pretty heavy faux pas around these parts. Please desist in claiming BS said things that he did not. Right(which it isn't) or wrong it is till a deduction on your part.

 

I would bet nearly all the posters here and elswhere would agree with my analysis, that Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghdiein, and of course you know this.

 

I rest my case.

 

Just go back and read the thread, four diff posters(I'll pull them all if you like) called you out on Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghdiein, claim asking for proof, to which you answered "BS said so". Since he never made that statement you then tried to cobble together various quotes to support your view. The key is it is "your deduction" BS NEVER MADE THAT STATEMENT!

 

Kid, relax.

 

As I said, you deduction skills need some working.

 

I've deduced that you flat out lied about BS making that statement.

 

As for the rest that was an awfully convoluted way to admit there is no definitive proof.

[Entreri]

Thus, Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghedien.

 

That is all I am going to say on this matter, I leave the rest to you.

 

So in other words without a lot of pointless typing, and faulty guesswork BS never said "Mohgidein is below Messana. Messana is below Semirhage." like you claimed. Thanks for that. In the future please don't claim author quotes as fact when they never actually happened.

 

Your analytical and comprehension skills are woefully lacking.

 

Seeing as how no one her seems to agree with you, and other posters called you out on it I wouldn't really say that is the case. Also for the record fabricating author statements to back up personnel opinion is a pretty heavy faux pas around these parts. Please desist in claiming BS said things that he did not. Right(which it isn't) or wrong it is till a deduction on your part.

 

I would bet nearly all the posters here and elswhere would agree with my analysis, that Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghdiein, and of course you know this.

 

I rest my case.

 

Just go back and read the thread, four diff posters(I'll pull them all if you like) called you out on Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghdiein, claim asking for proof, to which you answered "BS said so". Since he never made that statement you then tried to cobble together various quotes to support your view. The key is it is "your deduction" BS NEVER MADE THAT STATEMENT!

 

Kid, relax.

 

As I said, you deduction skills need some working.

 

I've deduced that you flat out lied about BS making that statement.

 

As for the rest that was an awfully convoluted way to admit there is no definitive proof.

 

I never said "BS said so". You are quoting incorrectly and also out of context.

 

Thus according to you this would be a lie.

 

See how easy that is?

 

Enough of your childish sillness.

 

In the future, use some deductive analysis.

 

I have wasted enough time on you and my time is precious.

 

I encourage you to keep going, as it may amuse some posters.

[Suttree]

Thus, Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghedien.

 

That is all I am going to say on this matter, I leave the rest to you.

 

So in other words without a lot of pointless typing, and faulty guesswork BS never said "Mohgidein is below Messana. Messana is below Semirhage." like you claimed. Thanks for that. In the future please don't claim author quotes as fact when they never actually happened.

 

Your analytical and comprehension skills are woefully lacking.

 

Seeing as how no one her seems to agree with you, and other posters called you out on it I wouldn't really say that is the case. Also for the record fabricating author statements to back up personnel opinion is a pretty heavy faux pas around these parts. Please desist in claiming BS said things that he did not. Right(which it isn't) or wrong it is till a deduction on your part.

 

I would bet nearly all the posters here and elswhere would agree with my analysis, that Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghdiein, and of course you know this.

 

I rest my case.

 

Just go back and read the thread, four diff posters(I'll pull them all if you like) called you out on Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghdiein, claim asking for proof, to which you answered "BS said so". Since he never made that statement you then tried to cobble together various quotes to support your view. The key is it is "your deduction" BS NEVER MADE THAT STATEMENT!

 

Kid, relax.

 

As I said, you deduction skills need some working.

 

I've deduced that you flat out lied about BS making that statement.

 

As for the rest that was an awfully convoluted way to admit there is no definitive proof.

 

I never said "BS said so". You are quoting incorrectly and also out of context.

 

Thus according to you this would be a lie.

 

See how easy that is?

 

Enough of your childness sillness.

 

In the future, use some deductive analysis.

 

What's childish is trying to back peddle and split hairs between "BS said so" and "This is according to Brandon" when asked for proof on the "Mohgidein is below Messana. Messana is below Semirhage." statement. Yeah totally out of context

[Entreri]

Thus, Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghedien.

 

That is all I am going to say on this matter, I leave the rest to you.

 

So in other words without a lot of pointless typing, and faulty guesswork BS never said "Mohgidein is below Messana. Messana is below Semirhage." like you claimed. Thanks for that. In the future please don't claim author quotes as fact when they never actually happened.

 

Your analytical and comprehension skills are woefully lacking.

 

Seeing as how no one her seems to agree with you, and other posters called you out on it I wouldn't really say that is the case. Also for the record fabricating author statements to back up personnel opinion is a pretty heavy faux pas around these parts. Please desist in claiming BS said things that he did not. Right(which it isn't) or wrong it is till a deduction on your part.

 

I would bet nearly all the posters here and elswhere would agree with my analysis, that Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghdiein, and of course you know this.

 

I rest my case.

 

Just go back and read the thread, four diff posters(I'll pull them all if you like) called you out on Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghdiein, claim asking for proof, to which you answered "BS said so". Since he never made that statement you then tried to cobble together various quotes to support your view. The key is it is "your deduction" BS NEVER MADE THAT STATEMENT!

 

Kid, relax.

 

As I said, you deduction skills need some working.

 

I've deduced that you flat out lied about BS making that statement.

 

As for the rest that was an awfully convoluted way to admit there is no definitive proof.

 

I never said "BS said so". You are quoting incorrectly and also out of context.

 

Thus according to you this would be a lie.

 

See how easy that is?

 

Enough of your childness sillness.

 

In the future, use some deductive analysis.

 

What's childish is trying to back peddle and split hairs between "BS said so" and "This is according to Brandon" when asked for proof on the "Mohgidein is below Messana. Messana is below Semirhage." statement. Yeah totally out of context

 

^See above.

 

Btw, you know that the same applies to you.

 

Endless tit for tat is worthless.

[UncleButcher1980]

[Suttree]

Endless tit for tat is worthless.

 

Except when the proof is in the thread:

 

Egwene is below Mohgidien. Mohgidein is below Messana. Messana is below Semirhage. Nynaeve is slightly stronger than Semirhage.

 

Thus Egwene is much weaker than Nyaneve and would get easily annihilated in an OP fight. Luckily for her, she fought a Forsaken in TAR.

 

I've seen this all to often lately, posters using an unsubstantiated claim as fact, and then drawing a totally separate conclusion...even if we did have proof that forsaken ranking is correct as we have no idea what the diff is between levels, it still does little to measure how much weaker Eggy is than Nyn.

 

Moraine said with training Ny will be like a bonfire to Egwene's candle..so it bears to reason that with training when Ny can access all her strength she will be much more powerful.

 

It is a figure of speech, in trying to show us that she is going to be strong in the OP. It's not meant to be taken literally or as some definitive judgement on the actual diff in power. As others have noted there is little support in the books for that "large" of a diff between the two. Nyn is talked about as stronger yes, but not bonfire to a candle stronger. That would be closer to the diff between Nyn and Sorilea.

 

This is according to Brandon.

 

...it wasn't according to BS, it was a deduction you made. Which of course backs up my initial point.

[XXX]

 

It started sucking when Egwene lovers realized that compared to the dragon..she is absolutely puny so decided to side track the thread by comparing her to other characters.

[Kahsm]

I already addressed the point. Splitting depends largely on strength (as your god Egwene herself said in tSR). Is it soley based on strength? No. Nothing in the series is solely based on strength, various people have Talents or skills in x,y,z.

 

You 'facts' are for the most part ideas. Mine for the large part are direct quotes from the books and the rest the authors.

 

Your quotes are quotes (the rare time you actually post them). Your facts are rarely based on what you claim proves them. You do realize there are ways to deduce things without an exact quote that spells it out plainly right? I can use a number of things that individually don't prove anything to at least highly suggest something to be true.

 

Here's an example of your 'evidence', "Egwene said so in tSR". Where's the quote? See I have to assume you mean the point where Rand lifts up her and Elayne and egwene comments on how powerful he is. Yes, strength makes being agile easier. I have said that a thousand times. But you take that to somehow mean Nynaeve MUST be more agile. Well, if you truly admit that agility is not only strength based, then you MUST admit that it is possible Egwene is more agile than Nynaeve, despite their relative strengths. Especially given that we have never seen Nynaeve weave as many flows as we have seen Egwene weave.

 

Furthermore, Egwene's comments about Rand in tSR are just a generic "wow he's good!". She cannot feel how strong he is or see what he's doing. She's not making some analytic comparison of his flows vs strength. She's just stating that the overall effect is impressive. This is what I mean by how you take snippets of things and blow them into some absolute truth that you feel requires no more evidence than what you originally decide to be true. And scoff at anyone who tries to point out any other interpretations.

 

And instead of jsut blanket condemning my posts as irrational or lacking evidence, how about you argue a single point I've made and explain why it's not true the way I do ALL of yours. I'd be happy to respond to something more intelligent than: "I gave you my opinion, it's obviously correct, you're obviously wrong, I don't care that you have reasonable alternative explanations that I have never explained away."

[Entreri]

I already addressed the point. Splitting depends largely on strength (as your god Egwene herself said in tSR). Is it soley based on strength? No. Nothing in the series is solely based on strength, various people have Talents or skills in x,y,z.

 

You 'facts' are for the most part ideas. Mine for the large part are direct quotes from the books and the rest the authors.

 

Your quotes are quotes (the rare time you actually post them). Your facts are rarely based on what you claim proves them. You do realize there are ways to deduce things without an exact quote that spells it out plainly right? I can use a number of things that individually don't prove anything to at least highly suggest something to be true.

 

Here's an example of your 'evidence', "Egwene said so in tSR". Where's the quote? See I have to assume you mean the point where Rand lifts up her and Elayne and egwene comments on how powerful he is. Yes, strength makes being agile easier. I have said that a thousand times. But you take that to somehow mean Nynaeve MUST be more agile. Well, if you truly admit that agility is not only strength based, then you MUST admit that it is possible Egwene is more agile than Nynaeve, despite their relative strengths. Especially given that we have never seen Nynaeve weave as many flows as we have seen Egwene weave.

 

Furthermore, Egwene's comments about Rand in tSR are just a generic "wow he's good!". She cannot feel how strong he is or see what he's doing. She's not making some analytic comparison of his flows vs strength. She's just stating that the overall effect is impressive. This is what I mean by how you take snippets of things and blow them into some absolute truth that you feel requires no more evidence than what you originally decide to be true. And scoff at anyone who tries to point out any other interpretations.

 

And instead of jsut blanket condemning my posts as irrational or lacking evidence, how about you argue a single point I've made and explain why it's not true the way I do ALL of yours. I'd be happy to respond to something more intelligent than: "I gave you my opinion, it's obviously correct, you're obviously wrong, I don't care that you have reasonable alternative explanations that I have never explained away."

 

You do realize this is a fantasy series, right? So yes, anything is possible. It is possible that Bela is the Creator, that Cadusane is a soul sucking gholam or that Egwene can weave more than Nyaneve. However, you can not provided evidence. We all understand that you believe Egwene is #1 and god. Most of us do not have this bias and therefore can more accurately analyze the facts.

 

Throughout series, what is generally observed is that strength is the largest component for anything to do with the Power. Clearly we also observe that various Talents or almost Talents can contribute to say the size/potency of the Weave etc. Nobody denies this.

 

However, until you can provide conclusive evidence that Egwene can indeed Weave more than Nyaneve, time to get back on topic.

 

And the Amyrlin, certainly no Amyrlin is equal to the DR.

[Ala Rubra]

As to Nyn's strength. Nyn couldn't shield Elayne. So give it up already. This idea that Egwene would be a toy to Nynaeve is silly. Though I am not surprised that it comes from some of the same people who think Rand is a god now.

 

Why do people keep bringing this up? It's established in WH and tSR that Nynaeve can shield someone her own strength who is currently holding the One Power. There are really only two ways to reconcile this with the scene in aCoS where Nynaeve tries and fails to shield Elayne:

 

1) RJ screwed up.

 

2) Shielding someone who is already holding the source needs more than just an attempt done in a panic.

 

Unfortunately, I do not have book 7, 9, or 4 at my disposal to quote the scenes, and in fact I may be remembering some of it wrong. But there must be some rationale to explain the discrepancy, right?

[XXX]

Ny shielded Moggy her equal when she was holding the power...and we know that Moggy is weaker than Egwene.

[Mr Ares]

Moraine said with training Ny will be like a bonfire to Egwene's candle..so it bears to reason that with training when Ny can access all her strength she will be much more powerful.

She can access her full strength without training - she just needs to be angry enough. So I'd say it doesn't bear to reason. No, without any training Nynaeve will be stronger - but that won't make her a bonfire next to their candles.

That does not make any sense.. both Egwene and Ny will get the same amount of training..the difference is the amount of strength each have, as that is the only thing Moraine is able to gauge. Moraine does not anything about how well Egwene and Ny will learn..she is going by the only thing she can gauge. Ny is much more powerful.

But she specifies with training. Training won't make Nynaeve stronger than she would be untrained. Therefore this cannot be considered a particularly helpful quote. That Nynaeve is stronger than Egwene is well established. But this quote doesn't prove a massive difference, so I wouldn't rely on it.

 

Thus, Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghedien.

That doesn't follow from the evidence you provided. What you provided said "Nynaeve is stronger than Semi, and Mesaana, and Moghedien." Not that any of those Chosen were stronger than one another. That is utter fabrication with no real support.

 

It started sucking when Egwene lovers realized that compared to the dragon..she is absolutely puny so decided to side track the thread by comparing her to other characters.

Nah, this thread started badly. Just look at the first post: "Egwene thinks so!!..in fact ,I think she thinks she is superior considering that she demands that he "submit" to the tower." Just terrible.

 

Ny shielded Moggy her equal when she was holding the power...and we know that Moggy is weaker than Egwene.

Moghedien is weaker than Egwene? So you're saying Egwene has Chosen level strength? I don't know, you Egwene lovers are hijacking a perfectly good hate thread.

[Kahsm]

Ny shielded Moggy her equal when she was holding the power...and we know that Moggy is weaker than Egwene.

Moghedien is weaker than Egwene? So you're saying Egwene has Chosen level strength? I don't know, you Egwene lovers are hijacking a perfectly good hate thread.

 

Wtf sort of bubble of evil has descended upon us when XXX47 is an "Egwene lover". I actually assume XXX47 meant to say "stronger" but slipped.

 

And here's what RJ says about Forsaken strength. I realize there are other "proofs", I'll get to that.

I don't go into that kind of thing. I know where they are. I also know they are highly unreliable. None of them is going to admit that anyone is that much stronger than they are, even when you are inside their heads. Don't take everything they say as the absolute truth or unbiased observation.

 

Here's some quotes on shielding:

I asked why Elayne thought even a Forsaken couldn't break the shield Adeleas and Vandene were holding on Ispan, expecting the answer that Elayne is clue-impaired. The correct answer is that holding a shield on someone depends not only on relative strength and fatigue, but also on whether the shield is held by channelers of the same sex as the victim. Thus two women (Adeleas and Vandene on Ispan, or Ispan and Falion on Nynaeve in A Crown of Swords) can hold another woman, but three women just get severed if they try to shield Rand. As a curiosity, it is also possible for multiple people to hold a shield without linking, but this is less strong and less precise, producing basically a layered shield.

 

Thus if Nyn was tired, she could not shield Elayne. In tGH after Rand talks to the Amyrlin, it's noted that Verin wipes sweat from her brow, suggesting she was shielding Rand (he does some stuff in the void while talking to them).

 

Also, Mogh and Nyn fight for awhile before Nyn wins, so if Mogh tired out first, that may not actually mean Nyn is stronger.

 

Q: How much stronger do you have to be to forcibly shield someone else who is already holding the One Power? Is it different for men than for women, or for heterosexual shielding? If the answer is only a little stronger, then ask him how come Nynaeve couldn't shield Elayne in A Crown of Swords, Chapter 21 (Swovan Night)? Also, how much weaker can you be and still be able to hold a shield on someone, Berowin excepted?

RJ: He did not use a "real scale" for One Power stuff. You just have to be stronger. Mostly handwaving. Consider the Kin. The woman who is very weak but has a real Talent for shielding.

And that quote pretty much destroys using shielding as any proof of anything.

[Suttree]

Thus, Semirhage>Mesaana>Moghedien.

That doesn't follow from the evidence you provided. What you provided said "Nynaeve is stronger than Semi, and Mesaana, and Moghedien." Not that any of those Chosen were stronger than one another. That is utter fabrication with no real support.

 

But Mr Ares "This is according to Brandon"!!!

 

Ny shielded Moggy her equal when she was holding the power...and we know that Moggy is weaker than Egwene.

Moghedien is weaker than Egwene? So you're saying Egwene has Chosen level strength? I don't know, you Egwene lovers are hijacking a perfectly good hate thread.

 

Ace. "we know that Moggy is weaker than Egwene"...so good coming from this source.

[Elan Tedronai]

Ny shielded Moggy her equal when she was holding the power...and we know that Moggy is weaker than Egwene.

Moghedien is weaker than Egwene? So you're saying Egwene has Chosen level strength? I don't know, you Egwene lovers are hijacking a perfectly good hate thread.

 

Wtf sort of bubble of evil has descended upon us when XXX47 is an "Egwene lover"

 

 

:biggrin:

[Guest PiotrekS]

Ny shielded Moggy her equal when she was holding the power...and we know that Moggy is weaker than Egwene.

Moghedien is weaker than Egwene? So you're saying Egwene has Chosen level strength? I don't know, you Egwene lovers are hijacking a perfectly good hate thread.

 

Wtf sort of bubble of evil has descended upon us when XXX47 is an "Egwene lover"

 

 

:biggrin:

 

It is just another in a long series of unbelievable plot twists connected with Egwene In time all proud Egwene haters will find themselves saying things like: "She's the best Amyrlin ever" or "I trust Mother's judgment in the matters of world survival". That's how Egwene works, folks...

[XXX]

Moraine said with training Ny will be like a bonfire to Egwene's candle..so it bears to reason that with training when Ny can access all her strength she will be much more powerful.

She can access her full strength without training - she just needs to be angry enough. So I'd say it doesn't bear to reason. No, without any training Nynaeve will be stronger - but that won't make her a bonfire next to their candles.

That does not make any sense.. both Egwene and Ny will get the same amount of training..the difference is the amount of strength each have, as that is the only thing Moraine is able to gauge. Moraine does not anything about how well Egwene and Ny will learn..she is going by the only thing she can gauge. Ny is much more powerful.

But she specifies with training. Training won't make Nynaeve stronger than she would be untrained. Therefore this cannot be considered a particularly helpful quote. That Nynaeve is stronger than Egwene is well established. But this quote doesn't prove a massive difference, so I wouldn't rely on it.

 

 

 

 

...so because Egwene is depicted as a candle to Ny's bonfire it is not helpful?. Well unless you prove with a quote from the books that Egwene is anything better than the candle to Ny's bonfire, we will stick with this comparison. After all you have no evidence it is anything but this.

[XXX]

Ny shielded Moggy her equal when she was holding the power...and we know that Moggy is weaker than Egwene.

Moghedien is weaker than Egwene? So you're saying Egwene has Chosen level strength? I don't know, you Egwene lovers are hijacking a perfectly good hate thread.

 

Wtf sort of bubble of evil has descended upon us when XXX47 is an "Egwene lover"

 

 

:biggrin:

 

 

I see my typo has made the Egwene lovers happy!!

[DemandredFO]

I wonder if she's going to suffer anything because of Nicola especially she knew better than to let Nicola jump ahead. I really she gets humiliated in aMoL, but she'll probably rediscover how to make jocars since she's so brilliant.

[Suttree]

I wonder if she's going to suffer anything because of Nicola especially she knew better than to let Nicola jump ahead. I really she gets humiliated in aMoL, but she'll probably rediscover how to make jocars since she's so brilliant.

 

LOL why stop with something like jocars. Bring back the standing weaves!!!

[Mr Ares]

Moraine said with training Ny will be like a bonfire to Egwene's candle..so it bears to reason that with training when Ny can access all her strength she will be much more powerful.

She can access her full strength without training - she just needs to be angry enough. So I'd say it doesn't bear to reason. No, without any training Nynaeve will be stronger - but that won't make her a bonfire next to their candles.

That does not make any sense.. both Egwene and Ny will get the same amount of training..the difference is the amount of strength each have, as that is the only thing Moraine is able to gauge. Moraine does not anything about how well Egwene and Ny will learn..she is going by the only thing she can gauge. Ny is much more powerful.

But she specifies with training. Training won't make Nynaeve stronger than she would be untrained. Therefore this cannot be considered a particularly helpful quote. That Nynaeve is stronger than Egwene is well established. But this quote doesn't prove a massive difference, so I wouldn't rely on it.

...so because Egwene is depicted as a candle to Ny's bonfire it is not helpful?. Well unless you prove with a quote from the books that Egwene is anything better than the candle to Ny's bonfire, we will stick with this comparison. After all you have no evidence it is anything but this.

Egwene is a candle next to Nynaeve's bonfire, remembering that the Oaths allow for exaggeration and this wasn't an assessment of their relative strengths. So what exactly does this quote prove? Nothing at all, Egwene lover, nothing at all.

[randsc]

]Egwene is a candle next to Nynaeve's bonfire, remembering that the Oaths allow for exaggeration and this wasn't an assessment of their relative strengths. So what exactly does this quote prove? Nothing at all, Egwene lover, nothing at all.

 

Foolishness. Of COURSE it's an assessment of their relative strengths. It may not be a terribly precise assessment of their relative strengths, but an assessment of their relative strengths it is.

[Himiko]

OK, so this isn't necessarily relevant to the topic of the thread, but:

 

As far as relative Forsaken strength levels go- we know that Nynaeve was Moghedien's equal early in the series, presumably when she wasn't at her full potential. Now, we know that she is about equal to Semirhage- possibly a little bit stronger. Therefore, we can deduce that Semirhage> Moghedien in raw strength. We know that Nynaeve is stronger than Egwene by quite some distance, so we can deduce that Semirhage> Egwene in strength, too. I don't have all the books with me to hand, but I believe that by the time Moghedien escapes in Salidar, Egwene thinks several times that she isn't a match for Mog. Since, at this time, Egwene has been forced by her damane training, and thus we can assume she is at, or very near her potential, its probably safe to assume that Moghedien > Egwene in raw strength. We know that Lanfear is the strongest female forsaken, I believe Cyndane fulfills this role, too, though is weaker than Lanfear was (please correct me if I'm wrong). I can't say for sure about Graendal, I have a feeling she's between Lanfear/ Cyndane and the others, but I don't know if this is just my personal feeling or if its ever been confirmed. The only female forsaken that we can't place for certain is Mesaana- we have a quote saying she's not particularly strong in Forsaken terms. Therefore, she is likely below Lanfear/ Cyndane and possibly Graendal, if I'm correct. Is there any definitive evidence other than "not particularly strong in Forsaken terms?" (I'm discounting the men for now, as most of them, it is suggested, are stronger than most of the female forsaken- with the possible exception of Asmodean, who seems to be, at the very least, weaker than Lanfear). If she is the weakest female forsaken, then yes, its possible that Egwene is stronger than her, I guess- and if she's not the absolute weakest of the Forsaken, then no, Egwene isn't stronger than she is, and so doesn't have "Forsaken level strength". But is the placement of Mesaana's strength relative to Semirhage and Moghedien's really that relevant? Egwene is as strong as she is, a strength that RJ listed as a step below Forsaken strength. Mesaana is now brain dead, so I guess either way, Egwene doesn't have Forsaken level strength anymore :P

 

Egwene vs. Nynaeve- going a little off topic here, but I can't help thinking that both of their abilities were written a little inconsistently by RJ. I mean- Nynaeve being clumsy with her weaves, and having dismal ability with anything except healing would actually make perfect sense, given how focused she is on healing and how little formal training she's actually had (series only covers 2 years, and she's spent a lot of that chasing Black Ajah, correcting the weather, and acting as Rand's advisor)- yet, it seems inconsistent with what we're actually shown when she weaves. She tosses out hugely complex and precise weaves, such as the 100 AS weaves, after only seeing them once- as someone posted, she does one 3 times whilst speaking. She only needs to see a weave used once and she can copy it. Those that see her weave- and I'm talking about Egwene here, who I agree, is definitely unusually agile with weaves, even for her level of skill- say that its complex, and impossible to follow- like weaving several carpets at once, I believe was the description used? She learns weaves in very short amounts of time. She has acquitted herself well in a battle against a Forsaken, and she wasn't just chucking healing spells at her and hoping :P We do see her use several weaves other than healing ones. I find it hard to believe that practising her complex healing weave has given her no practice at weaving in general? I'm sorry, but establishing Nynaeve as a skilled channeler, who learns weaves very, very quickly, but specialises herself largely in healing, through most of the series, and then have another character suddenly comment on how lame she is on anything outside of healing, when we've never seen any evidence of this in her actual weaving, except for someone else, also very skilled at healing, being better than her in healing, isn't "giving your character realistic weaknesses", its really inconsistent.

 

Similarly for Egwene- I've done my rant on how, over the course of 2 years, she's suddenly become great at everything she ever does for even the smallest amount of time before, so I won't repeat it all here. But we have someone commenting on how there is nothing more to teach her? Really? She spent even more time than Nynaeve away from the tower before she was called back to be Amyrlin, and spent most of her time after that studying politics from Siuan. So, what the WT is essentially saying is, a novice can come in, and if she is sufficiently strong, she'll learn absolutely everything the AS have to teach about weaving in ... probably about 3 months, real time (not including her time under Elaida's rule). I mean, yes, the Supergirls introduced the AS to a lot of new/ lost weaves, but surely that doesn't mean the AS had no weaves of their own to teach? Egwene's really crappy at healing, she's mentioned that- admittedly, it may be simply that she has no aptitude for it, no matter how much she learns- and she says herself that she can't see-and-repeat weaves like Nynaeve can, it takes her longer to learn them. That she has a well rounded education, I won't argue against- she's had politics training, Dreamwalker training, WT training, Wisdom training and Seanchan training- but politics, Wisdom apprenticeships and even Dreamwalker training aren't specifically related to weaving. That she is great in battle, totally understandable, she was, after all, forced under the Seanchan. But to jump from "well rounded education, including some channeling training, with focus on searching out ores and battle weaves" and "Absolutely nothing else for her to learn from the AS"- once again, it doesn't seem a great example of writing, I'll be honest.

 

I always took Egwene's reaction to Nynaeve's channeling to mean that Nynaeve could split more than Egwene. But I could be wrong, and since its never been explicitly mentioned, then we'll probably never find out unless these two actually do fight :P Moreso, I believe whoever wins will depend on how RJ/ BS decided to write their powers that day.

[MasterAblar]

OK, so this isn't necessarily relevant to the topic of the thread, but:

 

As far as relative Forsaken strength levels go- we know that Nynaeve was Moghedien's equal early in the series, presumably when she wasn't at her full potential. Now, we know that she is about equal to Semirhage- possibly a little bit stronger. Therefore, we can deduce that Semirhage> Moghedien in raw strength. We know that Nynaeve is stronger than Egwene by quite some distance, so we can deduce that Semirhage> Egwene in strength, too. I don't have all the books with me to hand, but I believe that by the time Moghedien escapes in Salidar, Egwene thinks several times that she isn't a match for Mog. Since, at this time, Egwene has been forced by her damane training, and thus we can assume she is at, or very near her potential, its probably safe to assume that Moghedien > Egwene in raw strength. We know that Lanfear is the strongest female forsaken, I believe Cyndane fulfills this role, too, though is weaker than Lanfear was (please correct me if I'm wrong). I can't say for sure about Graendal, I have a feeling she's between Lanfear/ Cyndane and the others, but I don't know if this is just my personal feeling or if its ever been confirmed. The only female forsaken that we can't place for certain is Mesaana- we have a quote saying she's not particularly strong in Forsaken terms. Therefore, she is likely below Lanfear/ Cyndane and possibly Graendal, if I'm correct. Is there any definitive evidence other than "not particularly strong in Forsaken terms?" (I'm discounting the men for now, as most of them, it is suggested, are stronger than most of the female forsaken- with the possible exception of Asmodean, who seems to be, at the very least, weaker than Lanfear). If she is the weakest female forsaken, then yes, its possible that Egwene is stronger than her, I guess- and if she's not the absolute weakest of the Forsaken, then no, Egwene isn't stronger than she is, and so doesn't have "Forsaken level strength". But is the placement of Mesaana's strength relative to Semirhage and Moghedien's really that relevant? Egwene is as strong as she is, a strength that RJ listed as a step below Forsaken strength. Mesaana is now brain dead, so I guess either way, Egwene doesn't have Forsaken level strength anymore :P

 

Egwene vs. Nynaeve- going a little off topic here, but I can't help thinking that both of their abilities were written a little inconsistently by RJ. I mean- Nynaeve being clumsy with her weaves, and having dismal ability with anything except healing would actually make perfect sense, given how focused she is on healing and how little formal training she's actually had (series only covers 2 years, and she's spent a lot of that chasing Black Ajah, correcting the weather, and acting as Rand's advisor)- yet, it seems inconsistent with what we're actually shown when she weaves. She tosses out hugely complex and precise weaves, such as the 100 AS weaves, after only seeing them once- as someone posted, she does one 3 times whilst speaking. She only needs to see a weave used once and she can copy it. Those that see her weave- and I'm talking about Egwene here, who I agree, is definitely unusually agile with weaves, even for her level of skill- say that its complex, and impossible to follow- like weaving several carpets at once, I believe was the description used? She learns weaves in very short amounts of time. She has acquitted herself well in a battle against a Forsaken, and she wasn't just chucking healing spells at her and hoping :P We do see her use several weaves other than healing ones. I find it hard to believe that practising her complex healing weave has given her no practice at weaving in general? I'm sorry, but establishing Nynaeve as a skilled channeler, who learns weaves very, very quickly, but specialises herself largely in healing, through most of the series, and then have another character suddenly comment on how lame she is on anything outside of healing, when we've never seen any evidence of this in her actual weaving, except for someone else, also very skilled at healing, being better than her in healing, isn't "giving your character realistic weaknesses", its really inconsistent.

 

Similarly for Egwene- I've done my rant on how, over the course of 2 years, she's suddenly become great at everything she ever does for even the smallest amount of time before, so I won't repeat it all here. But we have someone commenting on how there is nothing more to teach her? Really? She spent even more time than Nynaeve away from the tower before she was called back to be Amyrlin, and spent most of her time after that studying politics from Siuan. So, what the WT is essentially saying is, a novice can come in, and if she is sufficiently strong, she'll learn absolutely everything the AS have to teach about weaving in ... probably about 3 months, real time (not including her time under Elaida's rule). I mean, yes, the Supergirls introduced the AS to a lot of new/ lost weaves, but surely that doesn't mean the AS had no weaves of their own to teach? Egwene's really crappy at healing, she's mentioned that- admittedly, it may be simply that she has no aptitude for it, no matter how much she learns- and she says herself that she can't see-and-repeat weaves like Nynaeve can, it takes her longer to learn them. That she has a well rounded education, I won't argue against- she's had politics training, Dreamwalker training, WT training, Wisdom training and Seanchan training- but politics, Wisdom apprenticeships and even Dreamwalker training aren't specifically related to weaving. That she is great in battle, totally understandable, she was, after all, forced under the Seanchan. But to jump from "well rounded education, including some channeling training, with focus on searching out ores and battle weaves" and "Absolutely nothing else for her to learn from the AS"- once again, it doesn't seem a great example of writing, I'll be honest.

 

I always took Egwene's reaction to Nynaeve's channeling to mean that Nynaeve could split more than Egwene. But I could be wrong, and since its never been explicitly mentioned, then we'll probably never find out unless these two actually do fight :P Moreso, I believe whoever wins will depend on how RJ/ BS decided to write their powers that day.

 

The only other thing I can think of for Mesaana is that she says she matches up well with Semirhage in most aspects in the prologue of LoC. Then again that's from her point of view. Still if Mesaana is actually weaker than Moghedien then that comparison is so arrogant that she's clearly delusional.

As for Asmodean I'd say he's about Lanfear's level in terms of raw strength.

[XXX]

Moraine said with training Ny will be like a bonfire to Egwene's candle..so it bears to reason that with training when Ny can access all her strength she will be much more powerful.

She can access her full strength without training - she just needs to be angry enough. So I'd say it doesn't bear to reason. No, without any training Nynaeve will be stronger - but that won't make her a bonfire next to their candles.

That does not make any sense.. both Egwene and Ny will get the same amount of training..the difference is the amount of strength each have, as that is the only thing Moraine is able to gauge. Moraine does not anything about how well Egwene and Ny will learn..she is going by the only thing she can gauge. Ny is much more powerful.

But she specifies with training. Training won't make Nynaeve stronger than she would be untrained. Therefore this cannot be considered a particularly helpful quote. That Nynaeve is stronger than Egwene is well established. But this quote doesn't prove a massive difference, so I wouldn't rely on it.

...so because Egwene is depicted as a candle to Ny's bonfire it is not helpful?. Well unless you prove with a quote from the books that Egwene is anything better than the candle to Ny's bonfire, we will stick with this comparison. After all you have no evidence it is anything but this.

Egwene is a candle next to Nynaeve's bonfire, remembering that the Oaths allow for exaggeration and this wasn't an assessment of their relative strengths. So what exactly does this quote prove? Nothing at all, Egwene lover, nothing at all.

 

And how exactly do you know Moriane's quote is an exaggeration...please give me a quote from the book which says Moraine was wrong?

 

There is no evidence Moraine is wrong..Egwene lovers have strange logic.