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Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?


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on the one hand egwene says the dragon should be free man, and left alone to fulfil his prophecies.

 

then she asks him if he is going to make a petition? i mean for what?

 

 

sanderson has already confirmed that the egwene in TOM was his and the one in TGS was jordan's. Not suprising really

 

You're right about the petition thing. It wasn't the smartest thing to say, we can assume she was in shock.

 

It is funny about Egwene in TGS and ToM though. I agree she's written differently, but oddly I see it other way round than you do. For me Egwene is much, much better written in ToM than in TGS. In ToM she at least resembles a literary character. In TGS she resembles Stalin from one of the propagandistic biographies, or, to choose a milder example, a saint from an official hagiography.

 

 

The TGS egwene was abit too awesome for you piotreks? :biggrin:

 

the TGS egwene was realistic in that you knew and understood her goals. But the TOM egwene is filled with contradictions. Like the one i mentioned. Not too mention being too harsh on gawyn. sanderson in his attempt to 'put his mark' on the series has screwed up characters bigtime. from mat all the way to talmanes.

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I agree. Egwene has always been controlling (I'm being nice) and, given that she forced everyone she possibly could into swearing fealty when RJ was still writing her (and had varying thoughts about "using" Rand, punishing Nynaeve, "dealing" with Rand, taking the side of strangers over Rand, always being "against" him and Nynaeve, etc.), I didn't find her behavior or thoughts in ToM to be out of line. I thought she was quite in character (and, to drive home the idea that BS was consistent with her, all characters around her behaved irrationally and stupid in order to make her look good...just like RJ wrote).

 

But, out of curiosity, where was it stated that the tGS Egwene was RJ's and the ToM Egwene was Brandon's?

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A political office, no matter how long it has stood and regardless of its widespread economical and cultural influence can compare with the Soul designated as the champion of existence its self.

 

I see a trend here where people are distinguishing between person and office for Egwene, but refusing to do so for Rand.

 

Okay let's ignore Egwene as a person and simply focus on her office instead. And let's do the same for Rand.

 

Yep, still no comparison.

 

Rand is superior to Egwene in every conceivable manner, as a person. The Dragon is superior to the Amyrlin Seat in ever conceivable manner, as an office.

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Which of course has been pointed out by others as meaning nothing close to "submit", she is asking why he is there and being formal. Asking if he has come for counsel is very different than XXXs claim of Egwene wanting him to "submit" to the WT as you well know.

 

Which I don't agree with. She gave him two choices: either surrender to WT guidance (which is submit in any normal sense) or make a petition, which is asking WT to do something. But asking Aes Sedai to do something, as was pointed out since the first chapters of the first book, is to accept their guidance and directions in all matters.

 

So basically, she didn't give him much of a choice, really. But yes, she is "formally" asked him to submit himself to the will of the WT. :wink:

 

Exactly.

 

I find it amusing that people are arguing that "surrender" does not mean that she is asking/requesting/demanding (since we know that any "request" from the Amyrlin is as good as an order) him to submit. For those of you who clearly have a limited vocabulary, this is from dictionary.com:

 

sur·ren·der:

1. to yield (something) to the possession or power of another; deliver up possession of on demand or under duress: to surrender the fort to the enemy; to surrender the stolen goods to the police.

2. to give (oneself) up, as to the police.

3. to give (oneself) up to some influence, course, emotion, etc.: He surrendered himself to a life of hardship.

4. to give up, abandon, or relinquish (comfort, hope, etc.).

5. to yield or resign (an office, privilege, etc.) in favor of another.

6. to give oneself up, as into the power of another; submit or yield.

 

So Egwene using "surrender" is somehow proof that she isn't telling Rand to "submit"? Try again.

 

I will try again, except I'll try again to convey the fact it's not a demand, since you've chosen to quibble over a word that you've taken out of context in order to prove it could mean something similar to another word in some other context, and I'd prefer not to argue an irrelevant point.

 

Ok so I'll add the line above the one I previously quoted to hopefully make it more clear to you.

 

"Why have you come before the Amyrlin Seat?" she asked.

"Have you come to make a petition, or have you come to surrender yourself to the White Tower's guidance?"

 

1. There is no 'request from the Amyrlin' that is somehow binding. If there was, she would have only asked him about "surrendering", not mentioned petitioning, and most certainly not asked a wide-open question as to why he was there first.

 

2. She's not giving him ONLY two options. She explicitly asks him with an open question why he has come before the Amyrlin. Then she adds two possible options that are likely the answers, and make her look leader-ly in front of the Hall. Remember, she decides to leave the session open just for that reason, so they can see her confront him.

 

He answers by making a petition, because not only does he say he's going to break the seals, he says:

"I'm going to need you, all of you," he continued. "I hope to the Light that this time, you will give me your support [...]"

 

The question at the start of the thread uses this as 'evidence':

"[...] she thinks she is superior considering that she demands that he "submit" to the tower."

 

That is unequivocally untrue. Even if you believe it's 'two choices', which it's not, it's still not a 'demand' that he 'submit'. A demand would require no other choices.

Edited by Kael Pyralis
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this submission buisness is yet another sanderson fuck up as per usual.

 

on the one hand egwene says the dragon should be free man, and left alone to fulfil his prophecies.

 

then she asks him if he is going to make a petition? i mean for what?

 

 

sanderson has already confirmed that the egwene in TOM was his and the one in TGS was jordan's. Not suprising really

 

You're right about the petition thing. It wasn't the smartest thing to say, we can assume she was in shock.

 

It is funny about Egwene in TGS and ToM though. I agree she's written differently, but oddly I see it other way round than you do. For me Egwene is much, much better written in ToM than in TGS. In ToM she at least resembles a literary character. In TGS she resembles Stalin from one of the propagandistic biographies, or, to choose a milder example, a saint from an official hagiography.

 

 

The TGS egwene was abit too awesome for you piotreks? :biggrin:

 

the TGS egwene was realistic in that you knew and understood her goals. But the TOM egwene is filled with contradictions. Like the one i mentioned. Not too mention being too harsh on gawyn.

 

Here is a reasonable criticism of Sanderon's work.

 

sanderson in his attempt to 'put his mark' on the series has screwed up characters bigtime. from mat all the way to talmanes.

 

And then here is the kind of crap that makes it hard to take anything you post seriously. Now you're projecting a motivation onto Brandon's writing. If you read any interview, twitter message, blog post, etc that Brandon has ever made you will see the profound amount of respect that Brandon has for RJ. How he says that the story his RJ's and not his and he just wants to complete the story as RJ would want it as best as he can. To think that he would change characters to "put his mark" on the WoT or to make it more his is ludicris. Are some of the characters a bit different from RJ? Sure. But those are the honest mistakes of a different author writing someone else's characters. He's doing his best to get these characters to be the same as RJ.

 

Personally, I don't see much difference in ToM Egwene and the Egwene from earlier in the series. Perhaps Brandon's more blunt writing style just makes her negative attributes more obvious to see.

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if she was telling him to submit, why did she let him walk away? the dragon must be free, ya?

 

oh, skip it. you all have the whole book, you can all read every word in context instead of picking it apart into unrelated bits. you'd rather play with x rated trolls, i guess. i'm bored enough to understand that now.

 

She had little choice in the matter. According to her, Rand would have easily broken through the shield held by 2 circles of 13.

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Personally, I don't see much difference in ToM Egwene and the Egwene from earlier in the series. Perhaps Brandon's more blunt writing style just makes her negative attributes more obvious to see.

 

I don't see much difference in Egwene character RJ vs BS style either. In fact, I was amazed how close Egwene and Perrin are to whatever RJ did.

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Guest PiotrekS

 

 

on the one hand egwene says the dragon should be free man, and left alone to fulfil his prophecies.

 

then she asks him if he is going to make a petition? i mean for what?

 

 

sanderson has already confirmed that the egwene in TOM was his and the one in TGS was jordan's. Not suprising really

 

You're right about the petition thing. It wasn't the smartest thing to say, we can assume she was in shock.

 

It is funny about Egwene in TGS and ToM though. I agree she's written differently, but oddly I see it other way round than you do. For me Egwene is much, much better written in ToM than in TGS. In ToM she at least resembles a literary character. In TGS she resembles Stalin from one of the propagandistic biographies, or, to choose a milder example, a saint from an official hagiography.

 

 

The TGS egwene was abit too awesome for you piotreks? :biggrin:

 

the TGS egwene was realistic in that you knew and understood her goals. But the TOM egwene is filled with contradictions. Like the one i mentioned. Not too mention being too harsh on gawyn. sanderson in his attempt to 'put his mark' on the series has screwed up characters bigtime. from mat all the way to talmanes.

 

Yeah, too awesome. A little bit :biggrin:

 

And not only that, but everyone around her was portrayed as way too stupid/weak/evil. The contrast made it painful to read. It read to me as though everything and everyone around Egwene was distorted to make her shine even brighter.

 

In TGS, to comment on your point about consistence and contradictions, Egwene was written in a way to achieve a certain effect at the end of the book (make her a perfect Amyrlin that everybody will admire and who will be a shining paragon of Aes Sedai virtue just as Elaida will be a counter-example of Aes Sedai corruption. Make her smart, a genius channeler, Aes Sedai history, law and politics buff, strong willed but of gentle heart, fair, hard for everyone but hardest on herself...). She was a personified office, a role model, not a person I could believe in for a second.

 

In ToM, she was more human with her good and bad moves and with her contradictions. She wasn't a "Perfect Amyrlin" computer program anymore.

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i'm saying if you had me surrounded, in your place of power, and were telling me to submit, you'd flaming well stop me from walking away. and even picking the sentences apart out of context, she's asking a question.

 

you're right. i am a wacko to be in this thread. i know it's a troll fest, and yet... bored.

 

i guess that's why the mods let it go on. there's nothing else happening.

 

 

She thought of trying to stop him then decided she could not do anything about it...

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Egwene as the Amyrlin wants the Dragon to "submit" to her tower...you don't ask the person vastly more powerful and important than you to "submit" to you unless of course you are completely delusional to how insignificant you are compared to him.

 

Please give one example where she has ever asked him to "submit" to her tower?

 

She just asked him to "surrender" to her guidance..lol

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Egwene as the Amyrlin wants the Dragon to "submit" to her tower...you don't ask the person vastly more powerful and important than you to "submit" to you unless of course you are completely delusional to how insignificant you are compared to him.

 

Please give one example where she has ever asked him to "submit" to her tower?

 

She just asked him to "surrender" to her guidance..lol

 

No she didn't, she asked why he came to the tower.

 

Plus Suttree asked where it said submit to her tower. One of the possible answers Egwene suggests when she asks him why he had come is to surrender to tower guidance. Which means not to her, or to the tower itself, but to tower guidance.

 

The tower wants to guide him, he's been resisting since tGH when they tell him he's the DR, and so she's wondering if he's showed up to surrender to that guidance. She's also wondering if he came to petition the Amyrlin. But most of all she asked why he had come in general.

 

There are no demands and no requests. It is simple curiosity, with a veneer of, "I'm not afraid of you."

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Which I don't agree with. She gave him two choices: either surrender to WT guidance (which is submit in any normal sense) or make a petition, which is asking WT to do something. But asking Aes Sedai to do something, as was pointed out since the first chapters of the first book, is to accept their guidance and directions in all matters.

 

So basically, she didn't give him much of a choice, really. But yes, she is "formally" asked him to submit himself to the will of the WT. :wink:

 

She just asked him to "surrender" to her guidance..lol

 

I should have know better than to respond to the x-rated troll in the first place but since Skeeve brought it up as well. Are you both just ignoring the sentence that came before Egwene asking if Rand wanted guidance? What she said was:

 

"Why have you come before the Amyrlin Seat?" she asked.

"Have you come to make a petition, or have you come to surrender yourself to the White Tower's guidance?"

 

She is not telling him to do anything. She is asking why he came, which quite clearly is not Egwene demanding Rand "submit" to the WT.

Edited by Suttree
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Im scared to read this thread... I can't even imagine what people are saying right now. So with that being said I am responding to this after only reading the title to the thread, and I don't have time to get into a long drawn out answer, so I'm going to be breif.

 

Not even close!!

 

Rand wins in every way... no questions about it

 

 

 

Ok, I'm done now

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A political office, no matter how long it has stood and regardless of its widespread economical and cultural influence can compare with the Soul designated as the champion of existence its self.

Can compare? Should I use this as evidence of your suppressed Egwene love, or just dismiss it as a typo?

 

The Dragon and the Amyrlin don't compare, I agree with you on that. They are too different. The Dragon is not a political office, the Amyrlin is. It's like asking if a computer is equal to a carrot. That's why they don't compare. By saying one is better you are clearly making a comparison. But as it's backed up by such wonderful reasoning as "Rand is superior to Egwene in every conceivable manner, as a person. The Dragon is superior to the Amyrlin Seat in ever conceivable manner, as an office" I find it hard not be convinced. Now, a computer can be considered better than a carrot if we're talking about which has the greater processing power, a carrot is superior to the computer in terms of nutrition (although the computer tastes better - delicious plasticy goodness). Amyrlin and Dragon being equal is meaningless unless you establish in what respect we are talking about. In terms of world saving in the Pit of Doom, Dragon beats Amyrlin. In terms of saving the Westlands from the Trolloc Wars, Amyrlins were involved, Dragons weren't. Therefore Amyrlins are clearly superior to Dragons in this respect. In terms of not getting hands blown off, Egwene is clearly superior to Rand. As a person, that is. I'm not saying anything about the not-getting-your-hand-blown-off skills of either the Dragon or the Amyrlin as an office.

 

Suttree, Kael Pyralis, clearly you two are just a pair of goalpost-moving Egwene lovers.

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Suttree, Kael Pyralis, clearly you two are just a pair of goalpost-moving Egwene lovers.

 

I get that it's a long thread now, but if you don't know what you're talking about you should just stay quiet Ares.

 

I have never claimed Egwene is superior to the dragon, nor have I supported the comparison. I would have agreed with you had you not thrown in that completely uncalled for and incorrect last line. I'm not "moving goal posts" because I'm not trying to score anything here.

 

All I do, and what I see Suttree doing, is argue against the ridiculous hyperbole and that "wonderful reasoning", as you describe it, that people use to trash her. I have bumped or applauded numerous posts that criticize Egwene in a reasonable manner, because there's plenty discuss without grand categorical statements that are either completely baseless, or based on the smallest seed that could be interpreted many other ways.

 

You, on the other hand, just like to swoop in, and claim some high ground in the argument. If you think it's so silly, then don't read it. It's as simple as that. If you want to add something, then go right ahead. But your last line is the exact same "wonderful reasoning" you have trashed others for. It's a hyperbolic statement based on nothing but your own messed up opinion.

 

Now, if you're talking about off-topic points, I often end up off topic because people use off topic things to "prove" Egwene's state of mind, and then we end up arguing that. That's not moving goal posts, that's debating a supporting argument. Sometimes I don't even disagree with the person's conclusion, I just think the evidence is wrong and I'll STILL debate it. So I can see how you're confused. See, I'm actually searching for truth where truth can be found and combating hyperbole.

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Hmmm, I think either you've missing Mr Ares' joke big time, or I've missed yours. Or maybe I've just misread the whole thing.

 

If it was a joke, I totally missed it. Ares is mean though, so I think it's understandable =/

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If it was a joke, I totally missed it. Ares is mean though, so I think it's understandable =/

 

I thought it was a bit of irony, possibly at randsc and XXX47's expense. I don't think I could bear to go back through this thread to find the relevant posts, so I'll let Mr Ares explain it if he wants; chances are I've just misread the whole thing anyway. But I think Mr Ares only gets mean really when you get his name wrong.

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. . . uh. . . it was a joke. sarcasm. dry wit.

 

 

i think the trolls have confused people as to the difference between joking, and having fun at the expense of others.

 

 

 

these last 36 pages have raised a question in my mind. why is it so difficult to put someone on ignore in these forums? i mean, it can be done, thank the lord. but there are too many steps.

 

i think we need to have an "ignore this user" clicky under the avatar, because some of us are going. . . silly. . . playing with trolls.

 

(and, no, i won't take it personally if y'all put me on ignore. it's much better than bickering.)

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why is it so difficult to put someone on ignore in these forums? i mean, it can be done, thank the lord. but there are too many steps.

Two steps are too many? :wink: To put someone on ignore, all you need to do is go to your profile and add the person's name under Manage Ignored Users.

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actually, with my browser, i have to 1) go into settings, and from there 2) go into profile, and from there 3) go into manage ignored users, and then i have to 4) type in (or paste from clipboard) the name of the member i wish to ignore, and 5) then save changes.

 

the annoying part is typing in the name, or highlighting the text to copy from a difficult field without clicking into that member's profile.

 

it would be much easier, when i find myself being continually annoyed by the same person, to click the ignore button.

 

and may i also say, Jesus.

 

will that bring our long national nightmare to an end?

 

Jesus.

 

and i hope Luckers has noticed that the thread has again been derailed. it's a bad thread. if being a bad thread is wrong, it doesn't want to be right. it's not good-bad, it's evil.

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A political office, no matter how long it has stood and regardless of its widespread economical and cultural influence can compare with the Soul designated as the champion of existence its self.

Can compare? Should I use this as evidence of your suppressed Egwene love, or just dismiss it as a typo?

 

The Dragon and the Amyrlin don't compare, I agree with you on that. They are too different. The Dragon is not a political office, the Amyrlin is. It's like asking if a computer is equal to a carrot. That's why they don't compare. By saying one is better you are clearly making a comparison. But as it's backed up by such wonderful reasoning as "Rand is superior to Egwene in every conceivable manner, as a person. The Dragon is superior to the Amyrlin Seat in ever conceivable manner, as an office" I find it hard not be convinced. Now, a computer can be considered better than a carrot if we're talking about which has the greater processing power, a carrot is superior to the computer in terms of nutrition (although the computer tastes better - delicious plasticy goodness). Amyrlin and Dragon being equal is meaningless unless you establish in what respect we are talking about. In terms of world saving in the Pit of Doom, Dragon beats Amyrlin. In terms of saving the Westlands from the Trolloc Wars, Amyrlins were involved, Dragons weren't. Therefore Amyrlins are clearly superior to Dragons in this respect. In terms of not getting hands blown off, Egwene is clearly superior to Rand. As a person, that is. I'm not saying anything about the not-getting-your-hand-blown-off skills of either the Dragon or the Amyrlin as an office.

 

Suttree, Kael Pyralis, clearly you two are just a pair of goalpost-moving Egwene lovers.

 

And in terms of individual use of the one power....Rand blows Egwene out of the water in every conceivable way.

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A political office, no matter how long it has stood and regardless of its widespread economical and cultural influence can compare with the Soul designated as the champion of existence its self.

Can compare? Should I use this as evidence of your suppressed Egwene love, or just dismiss it as a typo?

 

The Dragon and the Amyrlin don't compare, I agree with you on that. They are too different. The Dragon is not a political office, the Amyrlin is. It's like asking if a computer is equal to a carrot. That's why they don't compare. By saying one is better you are clearly making a comparison. But as it's backed up by such wonderful reasoning as "Rand is superior to Egwene in every conceivable manner, as a person. The Dragon is superior to the Amyrlin Seat in ever conceivable manner, as an office" I find it hard not be convinced. Now, a computer can be considered better than a carrot if we're talking about which has the greater processing power, a carrot is superior to the computer in terms of nutrition (although the computer tastes better - delicious plasticy goodness). Amyrlin and Dragon being equal is meaningless unless you establish in what respect we are talking about. In terms of world saving in the Pit of Doom, Dragon beats Amyrlin. In terms of saving the Westlands from the Trolloc Wars, Amyrlins were involved, Dragons weren't. Therefore Amyrlins are clearly superior to Dragons in this respect. In terms of not getting hands blown off, Egwene is clearly superior to Rand. As a person, that is. I'm not saying anything about the not-getting-your-hand-blown-off skills of either the Dragon or the Amyrlin as an office.

 

Suttree, Kael Pyralis, clearly you two are just a pair of goalpost-moving Egwene lovers.

 

HaHa, nice one...

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Which I don't agree with. She gave him two choices: either surrender to WT guidance (which is submit in any normal sense) or make a petition, which is asking WT to do something. But asking Aes Sedai to do something, as was pointed out since the first chapters of the first book, is to accept their guidance and directions in all matters.

 

So basically, she didn't give him much of a choice, really. But yes, she is "formally" asked him to submit himself to the will of the WT. :wink:

 

She just asked him to "surrender" to her guidance..lol

 

I should have know better than to respond to the x-rated troll in the first place but since Skeeve brought it up as well. Are you both just ignoring the sentence that came before Egwene asking if Rand wanted guidance? What she said was:

 

"Why have you come before the Amyrlin Seat?" she asked.

"Have you come to make a petition, or have you come to surrender yourself to the White Tower's guidance?"

 

She is not telling him to do anything. She is asking why he came, which quite clearly is not Egwene demanding Rand "submit" to the WT.

 

As all debates when people tend to disagree... we see meaning and analyze things differently =O

For me the last meaning in the last quote goes as this; that the Amyrlin means that either the Dragon, blessed be his name in the Light and all things shiney is there to make a petition or there to surrender to the all wise guidance of the Tower.

If Egwene indeed was interested in the why she would have sshhhhed after the first question and listened to the Dragon´s answer. You could argue that everyone that gets to see the Amyrlin is assumed to either surrender or have a petition, but then maybe the first question was unnecessary.

 

In a way we are like Rand Sedai and Egwene. Too set in our ways, thinking we know all that we need to know, we should meet halfway and atleast agree to disagree on Egwene. Some see her as poorly written, everything that is horrible and despised in Aes Sedai, a hypocritical b*tch that speaks a certain way of values and acts on another set, some see her as a consistently written char, a step towards the Aes Sedai as they should be, a great badass Amyrlin, gowing a little step towards the AS being servants of old, and if not that, then atleast a well-needed step towards a Tower that maybe will be strong again and work for themselves AND for the people.

 

Rand fears that Egwene is as the AS the last time they failed him from his PoV- afraid, thinking they know all.. but most important thinking they fear men, strong men and especially men that can channel and will go mad.

(Abit OT but this reminds me of the Black Jewel trilogy were all the female Queens-due to corruption of their lifestyle- were afraid of a potential strong male WarLord who could physically overpower her and therefor by all means possible, violence, abuse, special rings and slavery tried to keep the males down and beat them into submission, same as in WoT with ingrained mistrust of one sex and no communication)

Egwene is also set in her ways, to narrow-minded to trust a man that can channel that was her friend, to set in the ways of how women view men in the world. So both have their issues. Rand is on top though, cause he sadly predicts Egwene´s reaction and uses it for his own advantage. We will see how that will work out. Rand also realizes that he needs women, maybe deep down he sees that it´s about balance in everything, even men and women, but Egwene hasn´t come to that realization yet as she is still rabid abit saidin-wielding black-coated men going crazy. Rand has had his phase of mistrusting and hating Aes Sedai and wanting them all if not dead then atleast controlled and under his thumb when he was Dark. Egwene is still in that phase in regards to her view of men/Asha´man but I hope she will come of around. I do, only for the Balance-theme of the books. If not... well then she is a poorly written char. Even if RJ intended her to act that way :tongue: And with all this said, I think I have a tiny bit of love for Egwene. I can see the little puny diamond in there with all the roughness, I just wish the roughness would come off already.

 

End.

Edited by Logains Pet
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