Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

If Egwene and Rand go at it face to face using the OP, who exactly do you think will win? She won't last a minute.

 

My money goes to Rand. *Shrugs*. It depends on how they fight each other though. I wouldn't entirely rule Egwene out.

 

Unless she gets him into TAR..she will be burned to a crisp instantly..absolutely nothing she can do.

 

Except Ishy none of the Forsaken even dared to fight Rand face to face once he learnt to channel..they run.

 

Really? Asmodean? Sammael? Rahvin?

[randsc]

Look, I understand the reaction against the sort of intemperate anti-Egwene language that was used earlier in this thread, but some of you are really being quite silly.

 

Egwene is not Rand's equal in the power, she is not remotely close, and there is nothing in the book to suggest that she is. People were impressed that Egwene was capable of splitting flows of the power 14 ways; Rand is capable of dozens if not hundreds. Whether that is a function of skill or of raw power hardly matters. Milan Lucic is a much better hockey player than I am, therefore he would kick my ass at hockey. Milan Lucic outweighs me by a good 40 pounds and is doubtless much stronger than me, therefore he could kick my ass at hockey. It hardly matters; either way, I shouldn't expct to beat Lucic at hockey.

 

Egwene herself considered Rand to be much stronger than herself even before he had LTT's memories. Egwene and Elayne are supposed to be two of the strongest female channelers in generations, and Rand handled them both "like a kitten" at a time when their knowledge of the power was incomplete but his was virtually non-existant.

 

As for the truly stupid notion that knowing how to do something doesn't equal the ability to do it: Explain why Rand's abilities took such a leap after the integration with LTT. Also remember, lest anyone be tempted by the "skills atrophy" nonsense, that LTT's skills have had no chance to atrophy. He died at the peak of his power, and his soul has just recently emerged. To him, it hasn't been 3000 years since he channeled, more like minutes.

[XXX]

If Egwene and Rand go at it face to face using the OP, who exactly do you think will win? She won't last a minute.

 

My money goes to Rand. *Shrugs*. It depends on how they fight each other though. I wouldn't entirely rule Egwene out.

 

Unless she gets him into TAR..she will be burned to a crisp instantly..absolutely nothing she can do.

 

Except Ishy none of the Forsaken even dared to fight Rand face to face once he learnt to channel..they run.

 

Really? Asmodean? Sammael? Rahvin?

 

Asmodean ran from Rand to get the CK..Sammael ran from him to Shadar Logoth, Rahvin ran from him into TAR..none of them stood and fought.

 

If Egwene runs into TAR then she has a chance, She stands and takes on Rand face to face like Nynaeve took on Moghedien ...,they sweep what is left of her into a small bag.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Look, I understand the reaction against the sort of intemperate anti-Egwene language that was used earlier in this thread, but some of you are really being quite silly.

 

Egwene is not Rand's equal in the power, she is not remotely close, and there is nothing in the book to suggest that she is. People were impressed that Egwene was capable of splitting flows of the power 14 ways; Rand is capable of dozens if not hundreds. Whether that is a function of skill or of raw power hardly matters. Milan Lucic is a much better hockey player than I am, therefore he would kick my ass at hockey. Milan Lucic outweighs me by a good 40 pounds and is doubtless much stronger than me, therefore he could kick my ass at hockey. It hardly matters; either way, I shouldn't expct to beat Lucic at hockey.

 

Egwene herself considered Rand to be much stronger than herself even before he had LTT's memories. Egwene and Elayne are supposed to be two of the strongest female channelers in generations, and Rand handled them both "like a kitten" at a time when their knowledge of the power was incomplete but his was virtually non-existant.

 

As for the truly stupid notion that knowing how to do something doesn't equal the ability to do it: Explain why Rand's abilities took such a leap after the integration with LTT. Also remember, lest anyone be tempted by the "skills atrophy" nonsense, that LTT's skills have had no chance to atrophy. He died at the peak of his power, and his soul has just recently emerged. To him, it hasn't been 3000 years since he channeled, more like minutes.

 

I agree, but also think that the notion of balance and equality between Rand and Egwene, although ultimately wrong, is inspired inter alia by the following:

-overall theme of male/female balance,

-the structure of TGS (+comments that the focus went back to "two most important characters").

 

A lot of people said that they liked how TGS concentrated on Rand and Egwene. I disliked it, because it distorted the overall logic of the series and allowed for these kind of arguments that we are seeing in this thread.

[XXX]

If there was supposed to be a balance then Egwene should have been tavern or a co-dragon. As it stands she is neither. The main characters in the books are the 3 boys from 2 rivers. The whole series revolves around one of them. RJ seems to have suddenly decided that he wants Egwene as a main character but unfortunately he woke up to the fact after more than 1/2 of the series was finished.

[Guest PiotrekS]

If there was supposed to be a balance then Egwene should have been tavern or a co-dragon. As it stands she is neither. The main characters in the books are the 3 boys from 2 rivers. The whole series revolves around one of them. RJ seems to have suddenly decided that he wants Egwene as a main character but unfortunately he woke up to the fact after more than 1/2 of the series was finished.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. I think the series is inconsistent in this regard.

[Himiko]

I always thought that the books started off with Rand as the very clear main character, with the rest of the Two Rivers characters, and Moiraine/ Lan, as important secondary characters. As the books went on, and more characters were added in important roles, and others faded into the background more, I always had the main characters as a sort of "core group": Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne. All have numerous POVs, all are immensely powerful/important to the series in one way or another, but Rand has remained the "main character", if only because he and his story are the focus of the series, even when we might not see him on-page as often as you'd expect from a main character. I liked the sort of ensemble thing, but I agree that in some later books (not even all of them, which is more confusing), it does seem like RJ decided he wanted Egwene bumped up from the ensemble to nearly match Rand, perhaps because of this whole "male-female balance" thing.

[XXX]

I always thought that the books started off with Rand as the very clear main character, with the rest of the Two Rivers characters, and Moiraine/ Lan, as important secondary characters. As the books went on, and more characters were added in important roles, and others faded into the background more, I always had the main characters as a sort of "core group": Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne. All have numerous POVs, all are immensely powerful/important to the series in one way or another, but Rand has remained the "main character", if only because he and his story are the focus of the series, even when we might not see him on-page as often as you'd expect from a main character. I liked the sort of ensemble thing, but I agree that in some later books (not even all of them, which is more confusing), it does seem like RJ decided he wanted Egwene bumped up from the ensemble to nearly match Rand, perhaps because of this whole "male-female balance" thing.

 

The funny part is if he wanted to elevate anyone it should have been Nynaeve..someone with parallels to Rand in that she was someone who started of to do the right thing for others(Rand to save the 2 rivers from Trollocs and Ny to save the 2 rivers folks from an AS). She has also shown incredible character development throughout 13 books to the point the now hardly anyone can root against her like people do with Egwene.

[Jon Paul]

Whenever I entered a Dragonmount thread I press CTRL+F and search for 'Randsc'. It saves crawling through a ton of posts looking for a worthwhile contribution .

[Kahsm]

After book 6-ish, I just stopped thinking of "main characters" and saw the books more of a story of a story, or a story of the world. There are particular people with important positions or roles, but the story is about the world's struggle. I believe I read somewhere that in one of the books (forget which) Rand is in it 2% of the time. So in that type of story, I have no problem with characters moving up and down in importance. Why does the "main character" have to stay main? Obviously Rand is the Dragon, and that's not likely to fall in importance until after TG, but Egwene, Nynaeve, Mat, Perrin, Iterlude, Bryne, Moir, Suin, Tuon, Taim, Logain... any of them have the potential to have fairly significant roles in parallel stories.

 

Saying it SHOULD be a particular character doing something over another just because they are more "main" than another seems silly and close-minded.

[Hybrid]

Asmodean ran from Rand to get the CK..Sammael ran from him to Shadar Logoth, Rahvin ran from him into TAR..none of them stood and fought.

 

If Egwene runs into TAR then she has a chance, She stands and takes on Rand face to face like Nynaeve took on Moghedien ...,they sweep what is left of her into a small bag.

 

There's a difference between retreat and repositioning. You wouldn't happen to be Weiramon, would you?

 

EDIT: Snipped massive nested quotes.

[Hybrid]

RJ seems to have suddenly decided that he wants Egwene as a main character but unfortunately he woke up to the fact after more than 1/2 of the series was finished.

 

If by "suddenly" you mean "early on," and by "more than 1/2 of the series" you mean TEOTW, then yes. Though I don't disagree with "unfortunately" ...

[XXX]

Asmodean ran from Rand to get the CK..Sammael ran from him to Shadar Logoth, Rahvin ran from him into TAR..none of them stood and fought.

 

If Egwene runs into TAR then she has a chance, She stands and takes on Rand face to face like Nynaeve took on Moghedien ...,they sweep what is left of her into a small bag.

 

There's a difference between retreat and repositioning. You wouldn't happen to be Weiramon, would you?

 

EDIT: Snipped massive nested quotes.

 

They "repositioned" themselves as they dared not fight him face to face like how Moggy and Ny went at it.

 

Egwene better "reposition" herself if she ever finds herself in a fight with Rand or she becomes ash.

[Suttree]

Asmodean ran from Rand to get the CK..Sammael ran from him to Shadar Logoth, Rahvin ran from him into TAR..none of them stood and fought.

 

If Egwene runs into TAR then she has a chance, She stands and takes on Rand face to face like Nynaeve took on Moghedien ...,they sweep what is left of her into a small bag.

 

There's a difference between retreat and repositioning. You wouldn't happen to be Weiramon, would you?

 

So good...and yes I've had my suspicions as well.

[Manscher]

Repositioning to places where they would have an upper hand, meaning they couldn't or wouldn't fight Rand on even ground. Kinda just supports XXX47 argument do you not think?

[Elan Tedronai]

Asmodean ran from Rand to get the CK..Sammael ran from him to Shadar Logoth, Rahvin ran from him into TAR..none of them stood and fought.

 

If Egwene runs into TAR then she has a chance, She stands and takes on Rand face to face like Nynaeve took on Moghedien ...,they sweep what is left of her into a small bag.

 

There's a difference between retreat and repositioning. You wouldn't happen to be Weiramon, would you?

 

EDIT: Snipped massive nested quotes.

 

They "repositioned" themselves as they dared not fight him face to face like how Moggy and Ny went at it.

 

 

 

 

rand is just basically immune from death. the forsaken didnt run away. They were made to run away. if the forsaken were truly the forsaken of the old, rand al thor may his soul rest in peace would have been burnt alive back in book 1. No bumbling ignorant shepherder should be able to stand up to killers from another age. 13 of the most powerful aes sedai in an age where powerful aes sedai wer dime a dozen getting beaten by some goat herder? Does not commpute.

 

The whole cast of the emond fielders would have been dead a long time ago if it were not for the whole 'suspension of disbelief'

 

That's why i particularly do not care for the forsaken. All the big bad stories from AOL are just hogwash. Either that or LTT was just a sorry ass clown. His alter ego in the current age is doing a better 'job' at taking them out.

[Hybrid]

Repositioning to places where they would have an upper hand, meaning they couldn't or wouldn't fight Rand on even ground. Kinda just supports XXX47 argument do you not think?

 

No, it doesn't. His argument was that they ran instead of fighting Rand. I can understand how you missed this, though, because it is nonsensical.

[XXX]

Repositioning to places where they would have an upper hand, meaning they couldn't or wouldn't fight Rand on even ground. Kinda just supports XXX47 argument do you not think?

 

No, it doesn't. His argument was that they ran instead of fighting Rand. I can understand how you missed this, though, because it is nonsensical.

 

Obviously I clarified that they ran from fighting him face to face.

 

Will Egwene survive fighting him face to face?

[Entreri]

Speculation: Most powerful Dreamer and 4 or 5 elements.

Not true. Amys has stated that Egwene is potentially far more powerful than any of the Wise One Dreamwalkers alive. Maybe she isn't the most powerful certainly, but given lack of evidence and also how rare Dreaming and Dreamwalking is, it is safe to assume that she is near the top.

 

Also, Egwene has stated that she barely needed to think to use Air and Water. Dreamers and Dreamwalkers who can channel have an affinity for Spirit, and Egwene herself is abnormally strong in Earth as mentioned in TGH (being able to detect ores in an unused quarry).

 

Avienhda is the first one to actually Travel...even though she forgot how she did it.

But Egwene was the first one to actually REDISCOVER it through conscious inference and deduction. Aviendha did it on the spur of the moment without really knowing what was going on.

 

Messana defeat was impressive. Rand has defeated 5 Forsaken (6 if you count Aginor), Moraine 2, Nyaneve 1, Elza 1, Green Man 1.

Let's see. The six you refer to are Aginor, Ishamael, Rahvin, Sammael, Aran'gar and Semirhage.

 

Aginor killed himself drawing too much of the power.

Rand defeated Ishamael.

Rahvin was owning Rand until Nynaeve showed up.

Sammael got blasted by Mashadar.

Rand didn't defeat Aran'gar. It hardly takes any effort to kill someone who got trussed and bound up for the offering. Rand wasn't even aiming for her, but Graendal. Aran'gar was collateral damage and Graendal got away.

Semirhage owned Rand until the Dark One intervened. I'd say that the Dark One used Rand to defeat her.

 

Rand defeated only 1 or 2 of the Forsaken knowingly and consciously, unless you were refering to others?

 

Do you happen to remember where Amys said that? I quickly scanned books (4,5,6, Kindle) could not find it. Egwene was certainly surprised by the capabilities of the Aiel Wise Ones, and amazed that Perrin blocked balefire with his hands. I would say that Egwene is certainly close to the top, given the defeat of Messana, but not #1.

 

The Wise One's have been in TAR for 1000's of years (most experienced probably have 200+ years in TAR), and they contest the Chosen's mantra that are the rulers of TAR.

 

That does not necessarily mean that she has strength in all the said elements, affinity=/=strength. I would surmise that she has strength in Earth, Air and Water.

 

Travelling, ok. But it just goes to show you that many lost Weaves are being discovered.

 

Ishamael, Rahvin (he did kill him, regardless of the help), Aran'gar of course, Semirhage and Asmodean, even Aginor (without Rand, Aginor would be alive...in the real world, think of a bank robbery and bystander dying during the robbery/heart attack).

 

The only reason Egwene managed to defeat Messana was because she was in TAR. This is an endless debate.

 

Who killed or defeated the Chosen = where the credit goes.

 

Keep in mind that Rand would have killed Grandael and Aran'gar both, Grandael was fortunate that the TP saved her.

[Entreri]

Asmodean ran from Rand to get the CK..Sammael ran from him to Shadar Logoth, Rahvin ran from him into TAR..none of them stood and fought.

 

If Egwene runs into TAR then she has a chance, She stands and takes on Rand face to face like Nynaeve took on Moghedien ...,they sweep what is left of her into a small bag.

 

There's a difference between retreat and repositioning. You wouldn't happen to be Weiramon, would you?

 

EDIT: Snipped massive nested quotes.

 

They "repositioned" themselves as they dared not fight him face to face like how Moggy and Ny went at it.

 

 

 

 

rand is just basically immune from death. the forsaken didnt run away. They were made to run away. if the forsaken were truly the forsaken of the old, rand al thor may his soul rest in peace would have been burnt alive back in book 1. No bumbling ignorant shepherder should be able to stand up to killers from another age. 13 of the most powerful aes sedai in an age where powerful aes sedai wer dime a dozen getting beaten by some goat herder? Does not commpute.

 

The whole cast of the emond fielders would have been dead a long time ago if it were not for the whole 'suspension of disbelief'

 

That's why i particularly do not care for the forsaken. All the big bad stories from AOL are just hogwash. Either that or LTT was just a sorry ass clown. His alter ego in the current age is doing a better 'job' at taking them out.

 

 

Ishamael was interested in turning Rand to the dark side of the Force(Anakin/Palpatine). The rest of the Chosen feared Ishamael, his sanity, strength, skill and the TP. And Lanfear of course wanted him as her lover.

 

LTT's memories leaked across, even in the early books, several examples of this. All the Forsaken were fearful that Shai'tan would make LTT/Rand the Nae'blis...Shai'tan's Chosen are "always the strongest", Nae'blis=strongest=LTT.

 

And no doubt, due to LTT's reputation as being the greatest (The Great One...although no Gretzky), the Chosen were hesitant to confront him face-to-face even as a farmboy.

 

So I wouldn't discount the effect LTT had on the Chosen's psychology. LTT having spanked them so badly in AoL = they are terrified of facing him, even as a reborn farmboy. In the real world, that plays a large part in any one-on-one battle. Fighters would say that 90% is psychological.

 

Consider how they treat the Aes Sedia..."half-trained" girls, even Wise Ones they scoff at (Lanfear did).

 

In the end it is only a fantasy series and plot shields abound.

 

For far less plot shields (main characters that can die any time and frequently), I suggest The Song of Ice and Fire (the TV show - Game of Thrones is incredible as well, 10/10, one of best TV series EVER created, easy top 10 ever...makes the Legend of the Seeker TV show look 3rd rate).

[randsc]

Whenever I entered a Dragonmount thread I press CTRL+F and search for 'Randsc'. It saves crawling through a ton of posts looking for a worthwhile contribution .

 

Thank you, Jon Paul. Others could benefit from your wise example.

[Himiko]

If we're going to start measuring skill by who defeated the most Forsaken, and then get nitpicky about how Rand/ whoever had to have help, then it may be worth pointing out that, but for both Perrin and Gawyn, Mesaana would never have been defeated. If Gawyn hadn't faced off those Bloodknives, Egwene would have died, and vanished from TAR. Perrin's much more of an arguable case, but given that she was astounded that Perrin managed to shrug off Balefire in TAR, and then went on to do the same with the a'dam, one might say that, had their encounter not taken place, Egwene might have succumbed to the a'dam. As I say, that one's a little arguable. But just a thought... There's very few major wins in the series that can't be partially credited to others, or luck, IMO.

 

Light, I think I just praised Gawyn there... I'd better go and lie down for a bit...

[randsc]

Not really arguable. If Perrin didn't shrug off that balefire, Egwene dies.

[Ala Rubra]

Not really arguable. If Perrin didn't shrug off that balefire, Egwene dies.

 

The balefire's not really the important part, IMO. The important thing was that he brought the dreamspike there in the first place, forcing Messana into a showdown.

[Durinax]

Not really arguable. If Perrin didn't shrug off that balefire, Egwene dies.

 

The balefire's not really the important part, IMO. The important thing was that he brought the dreamspike there in the first place, forcing Messana into a showdown.

both are equally important, if perrin didnt bring the dreamspike egwene and co would have ran into mesaanas trap, if perrin didnt show her the power of the mind in tar she would have broken to the adam and been a slave/dead