Why are the Aes Sedai so poor in battle?

[XXX]

After reading the OP I am struck with an urge to rant.

 

The Aes Sedai have not received the full knowledge of the Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends. That has pretty much been a massive thing about them all this time. Only now are people starting to make some real discoveries again, some of which were not known even in the AoL. So I dont see what the big deal is there.

 

Secondly, its not like the Green Ajah have a load of experience fighting other channelers. The damane, on the other hand, have a potential part in any major conflict in Seanchan, which means a lot of battles will have been channeler vs channeler. Possibly not on the scale the Ashaman can put out, but then again the Ashaman are less than two years old so it could go either way.

 

Lastly, the Green Ajah dont rely entirely on offensive weaves, Warders are every bit as much of the equation. Being of the Battle Ajah isnt just about blasting your opponent any more than being a good soldier isnt just about being able to handle a weapon. Its about tactics, and battle strategy, and people management. If you want a good example of Green Ajah, look at the defensive setup Cadsuane organized for the Cleansing.

 

/end of rant

 

They received more knowledge and artifacts..angreal etc from the AoL than any other group of channellers.

 

Likely the 1000 years of unquestioned dominance in Randland just made them complacent that there was nothing else they need to know. Now they know better.

[Himiko]

Lastly, the Green Ajah dont rely entirely on offensive weaves, Warders are every bit as much of the equation. Being of the Battle Ajah isnt just about blasting your opponent any more than being a good soldier isnt just about being able to handle a weapon. Its about tactics, and battle strategy, and people management. If you want a good example of Green Ajah, look at the defensive setup Cadsuane organized for the Cleansing.

 

/end of rant

 

I agree, battle strategy and Warders are definitely a part of it, but then, I highly doubt the whole function of the Battle Ajah is supposed to just be to bond a bunch of Warders and sit back while they go off to fight. There seems little point to that. And whilst Cadsuane is kickass, tactics are clearly a strong point. But if you look at the Seanchan assault on the tower, you have the head of the Green Ajah (I believe she is, anyway) running around like a headless chicken, whilst Egwene, who currently holds the rank of "novice", and Saerin, a Brown, are the ones getting crap done. More evidence needed to show whether either Cadsuane or Adelorna are exceptions of their Ajah.

[sleepinghour]

But if you look at the Seanchan assault on the tower, you have the head of the Green Ajah (I believe she is, anyway) running around like a headless chicken, whilst Egwene, who currently holds the rank of "novice", and Saerin, a Brown, are the ones getting crap done. More evidence needed to show whether either Cadsuane or Adelorna are exceptions of their Ajah.

I think Cadsuane is the exception. Joline is a former Green Sitter and claims to have gained the shawl when Elaida's mother was still a child, so she's actually quite old. But she turned into a weeping mess after only a week of hiding from the Seanchan in Ebou Dar, and exhausted herself using fireballs against the Seanchan army. Nynaeve and Elayne faced a similar situation in Falme, but held up much better despite not having two Warders to protect them like Joline.

[Kahsm]

But if you look at the Seanchan assault on the tower, you have the head of the Green Ajah (I believe she is, anyway) running around like a headless chicken, whilst Egwene, who currently holds the rank of "novice", and Saerin, a Brown, are the ones getting crap done. More evidence needed to show whether either Cadsuane or Adelorna are exceptions of their Ajah.

I think Cadsuane is the exception. Joline is a former Green Sitter and claims to have gained the shawl when Elaida's mother was still a child, so she's actually quite old. But she turned into a weeping mess after only a week of hiding from the Seanchan in Ebou Dar, and exhausted herself using fireballs against the Seanchan army. Nynaeve and Elayne faced a similar situation in Falme, but held up much better despite not having two Warders to protect them like Joline.

 

I wouldn't say Cadsuane is an exception. just a demonstration of the degradation that some are arguing. Cadsuane is retired remember, and even she complains about the current crop of Aes Sedai. I think the complacency is fairly recent. There was a calm before this TG storm, and the Aes Sedai, for the most part, sat back on their haunches.

 

Now given that I'm usually one of the more fervent defenders of the Aes Sedai, I shall defend the first green by pointing out their war is usually with the shadowspawn. I don't really blame her for running around not knowing what to do. Some will say "well Egwene took control" Yeah, she took control by basically single handedly driving the Seanchan away. Sure she taught some accepteds to link so they could help others, but the major part of her "plan" was her, and a sa'angreal, blowing all the Seanchan out of the sky. Could the first of greens do that even if she could get the sa'angreal? Doubt it. We've already spoken at how horrible their offensive weave imagination is, even if she could coral some others to link with just to get to Egwene's natural power.

[XXX]

But if you look at the Seanchan assault on the tower, you have the head of the Green Ajah (I believe she is, anyway) running around like a headless chicken, whilst Egwene, who currently holds the rank of "novice", and Saerin, a Brown, are the ones getting crap done. More evidence needed to show whether either Cadsuane or Adelorna are exceptions of their Ajah.

I think Cadsuane is the exception. Joline is a former Green Sitter and claims to have gained the shawl when Elaida's mother was still a child, so she's actually quite old. But she turned into a weeping mess after only a week of hiding from the Seanchan in Ebou Dar, and exhausted herself using fireballs against the Seanchan army. Nynaeve and Elayne faced a similar situation in Falme, but held up much better despite not having two Warders to protect them like Joline.

 

I wouldn't say Cadsuane is an exception. just a demonstration of the degradation that some are arguing. Cadsuane is retired remember, and even she complains about the current crop of Aes Sedai. I think the complacency is fairly recent. There was a calm before this TG storm, and the Aes Sedai, for the most part, sat back on their haunches.

 

Now given that I'm usually one of the more fervent defenders of the Aes Sedai, I shall defend the first green by pointing out their war is usually with the shadowspawn. I don't really blame her for running around not knowing what to do. Some will say "well Egwene took control" Yeah, she took control by basically single handedly driving the Seanchan away. Sure she taught some accepteds to link so they could help others, but the major part of her "plan" was her, and a sa'angreal, blowing all the Seanchan out of the sky. Could the first of greens do that even if she could get the sa'angreal? Doubt it. We've already spoken at how horrible their offensive weave imagination is, even if she could coral some others to link with just to get to Egwene's natural power.

 

 

Without the sa'angreal there was nothing even Egwene could do. She clearly states that the sa'angreal prevented any attempts to shield her. I expect the Damane to be especially good at shields as a lot of their fights are against other OP users.

[David Selig]

Most of the Greens are too busy choosing revealing dresses and flirting with potential Warders to train for battles. ;)

 

In fairness, we haven't seen much of the average Aes Sedai in battle to really judge their worth. At Dumai's Wells they did great, for example, held off ten times more Shaido WO (of course, they had the advantage since the WO were totally inexperienced in battles, but still...) and all the thousands of ordinary Shaido fighters. During the Seanchan attack on the Tower they were caught by surprise and the internal discord at the time made cooperation between the members of the different Ajahs difficult.

 

Not using them in the LB would be beyond idiotic since even a weak Aes Sedai would be more useful in the battles than 10 ordinary soldiers.

[Kahsm]

Most of the Greens are too busy choosing revealing dresses and flirting with potential Warders to train for battles. ;)

 

In fairness, we haven't seen much of the average Aes Sedai of them in battle to really judge their worth. At Dumai's Wells they did great, for example, held off ten times more Shaido WO (of course, they had the advantage since the WO were totally inexperienced in battles, but still...) and all the thousands of ordinary Shaido fighters. During the Seanchan attack on the Tower they were caught by surprise and the internal discord at the time made cooperation between the members of the different Ajahs difficult.

 

Not using them in the LB would be beyond idiotic since even a weak Aes Sedai would be more useful in the battles than 10 ordinary soldiers.

 

I agree, the Aes Sedai are one type of soldier. The Seanchan fields an entire diverse army, and worse yet, the Damane are the light-cavalry to the Aes Sedai's Archers.

 

It's like playing rock-paper-scissors, but the Aes Sedai can only play scissor, and the damane can only play rock.

[Himiko]

 

Now given that I'm usually one of the more fervent defenders of the Aes Sedai, I shall defend the first green by pointing out their war is usually with the shadowspawn. I don't really blame her for running around not knowing what to do. Some will say "well Egwene took control" Yeah, she took control by basically single handedly driving the Seanchan away. Sure she taught some accepteds to link so they could help others, but the major part of her "plan" was her, and a sa'angreal, blowing all the Seanchan out of the sky. Could the first of greens do that even if she could get the sa'angreal? Doubt it. We've already spoken at how horrible their offensive weave imagination is, even if she could coral some others to link with just to get to Egwene's natural power.

 

Wasn't Egwene dosed up on forkroot, though? Even if the effects were beginning to wear off, she would still be far weaker than a lot of AS in the tower- she was so powerful because she was linked, and because she had sa'angreal. Same would have been true of the other AS, had they tried, surely?

[Suttree]

 

Now given that I'm usually one of the more fervent defenders of the Aes Sedai, I shall defend the first green by pointing out their war is usually with the shadowspawn. I don't really blame her for running around not knowing what to do. Some will say "well Egwene took control" Yeah, she took control by basically single handedly driving the Seanchan away. Sure she taught some accepteds to link so they could help others, but the major part of her "plan" was her, and a sa'angreal, blowing all the Seanchan out of the sky. Could the first of greens do that even if she could get the sa'angreal? Doubt it. We've already spoken at how horrible their offensive weave imagination is, even if she could coral some others to link with just to get to Egwene's natural power.

 

Wasn't Egwene dosed up on forkroot, though? Even if the effects were beginning to wear off, she would still be far weaker than a lot of AS in the tower- she was so powerful because she was linked, and because she had sa'angreal. Same would have been true of the other AS, had they tried, surely?

 

Maybe he was getting at the fact she can split far more weaves than most AS?

[Kahsm]

 

Now given that I'm usually one of the more fervent defenders of the Aes Sedai, I shall defend the first green by pointing out their war is usually with the shadowspawn. I don't really blame her for running around not knowing what to do. Some will say "well Egwene took control" Yeah, she took control by basically single handedly driving the Seanchan away. Sure she taught some accepteds to link so they could help others, but the major part of her "plan" was her, and a sa'angreal, blowing all the Seanchan out of the sky. Could the first of greens do that even if she could get the sa'angreal? Doubt it. We've already spoken at how horrible their offensive weave imagination is, even if she could coral some others to link with just to get to Egwene's natural power.

 

Wasn't Egwene dosed up on forkroot, though? Even if the effects were beginning to wear off, she would still be far weaker than a lot of AS in the tower- she was so powerful because she was linked, and because she had sa'angreal. Same would have been true of the other AS, had they tried, surely?

 

Maybe he was getting at the fact she can split far more weaves than most AS?

 

Split weaves, time with Damane, not being corrupted by the Aes Sedai lack of imagination, and experience being that strong!

 

Think of it this way. Weaker channelers cannot weave balefire or travel at all. So if you were one of the weaker sisters and were suddenly in control of a circle, would they think about using travelling and balefire? Not likely. And even if you did, how much experience do you have with those weaves? And we know most Aes Sedai currently are quite weak with the OP.

[pilgram]

Well, there’s several reasons for Green ajah poor performance during Seanchan assault on Tower. General mentality of individual sisters and Tower as a whole, which favors manipulation and intimidation rather than direct confrontation as well as limitations of Three Oaths, their history that left them inexperienced in larger-scale channelers to channelers combat. One can also try to make case for simple poor leadership: raw straight in power as a central factor in determining precedence doesn’t seem to make wonders for bringing most capable/competent persons on top. Than there’s simple mater of surprise to factor in. just think about it: rank-and-file sisters probably only heard rumors of Seanchan and even better informed ones (ajah heads, sitters, handlers of eyes-and-ears networks) knew that they are hundreds of miles and several countries away. And now all of a sudden in the middle of the night here they are, attacking place every Aes Sedai knew to be safe. I’ve never been yanked out of sleep by explosions and military attack on my house but I assume that it’s incredibly disorientating.

However, if I’d have to put my money on it, I’d say that it’s to make Egwene look better in comparison. Salidar embassy didn’t look that incompetent on Dumai Wells and neither did Cadsuane’s posse. Also, there’s question of Salidar AS reacting to that bubble of evil in LoC. Although the event was unexpected and in the middle of night they managed to organize themselves and put much better performance than their sisters in Tower. So I’d put green ajah performance along all other things that brought Egwene to Amirlin Seat.

One more thing: Adelorna’s comment’s on weaves used by damane is strange, since she should know alike weaves if not actually same ones.

[sleepinghour]

I wouldn't say Cadsuane is an exception. just a demonstration of the degradation that some are arguing. Cadsuane is retired remember, and even she complains about the current crop of Aes Sedai. I think the complacency is fairly recent. There was a calm before this TG storm, and the Aes Sedai, for the most part, sat back on their haunches.

The Tower has always denied the existence of the Black Ajah and assumed that all they'll need to do at Tarmon Gai'don is throw fireballs and lightning at Shadowspawn. Only the Reds have any experience fighting other channelers and that's probably why Cadsuane is so much better at it than the other Greens--she spent the last three centuries doing what Reds do: capturing male channelers. Her meeting with the wilder Norla also taught her that even an untrained wilder can wipe the floor with the strongest Aes Sedai alive. Cadsuane experienced a humiliating defeat and grew stronger because of it; the other Greens have yet to manage the latter part.

 

Secondly, as Cadsuane herself comments in TGS, she's one of the few Aes Sedai capable of thinking outside the box:

 

It was strange to her [Cadsuane] how few Aes Sedai learned to innovate with the One Power. They memorized time-tested and traditional weaves, but gave barely a thought for what else they could do. True, experimenting with the One Power could be disastrous, but many simple extrapolations could be made without danger.

So I would say Cadsuane is an exception in more ways than one, and probably always has been.

[mb]

The deathweaves can only be used against shadowspawn

Death Gates.

And more accurately, cause death for just Shadowspawn.

Transporting enemies to a random location might be useful.

[Blackhoof]

im pretty sure the only weave that only kills shadowspawn is the deathgates. but even then DG's can slice and dice ordianry people.

[Ananta]

im pretty sure the only weave that only kills shadowspawn is the deathgates. but even then DG's can slice and dice ordianry people.

 

Rand destroys the Trollocs and Myrdraal at Stone of Tear with some epic weave that targets only shadowspawn.

[CaseyWoL]

Personally I'd like to see some more wind destruction going on, rather than all this fire and lightning that seem so overused. Every time someone dies to the power it's always by being burned alive by a fireball or just balefire. The lightning weaves are described as striking down just a few enemies in large battles, without much area-of-effect awesomeness going on.

 

What about tornadoes, cyclones, snowstorms? Throw a tornado in a trolloc army and you're bound to take out hundreds if not thousands depending on the size of the weave.

 

 

Even some earth attacks would be refreshing. Have some pillars of rock shoot out from the ground and impale folks loolll

[DemandredFO]

I think the oaths are the primary cause of the decline because accidents happen during battle training.

One of the reasons the AS if there were any didn't do anything in Ituralde's battles were probably because Ituralde didn't ask. They could've linked and been that much more powerful.

The AS may just be batteries for the AM because fireballs and lightning won't be much good. As for Warders being as good as sisters no, because you can't harm a fireball by stabbing it. Back to sisters. a firestorm would wreak some havoc and I assume a linked pair could create one easily.

[Haggis]

2 reasons

 

1. Lack of experience.

 

Most sisters only experience battle in the trials to become accepted or Aes Sedai. And that's less to check battle skill then it mental strength.

 

2. Lack of focus. They can heal, study items of power, control weather, foresight is known, and of course fighting. non of the other known channelers (other then the forsaken) have as many weaves. Wise one only really knew dreamwalking until they got Aes Sedai training. Windfinders only really have weather control, and damane are basically machines used for battle or mass production (Other then the one that did a foretelling for Tuon.

[David Selig]

I'd say one of the main reasons is the ridiculous amount of time most of them spend as Novices, during which they are expected to obey their teachers absolutely and are regularly given severe punishments for any sign of disobedience or deviating from the channelling guidelines. Not only that, but they also really insist on making absolutely sure to teach the novices how dangerous experimentation with channelling can be - to the degree that even the super talented fast learners Egwene and Elayne weren't allowed to channel on their own without supervision several months after they had started their training. This is not exactly inspiring for the creativity of the students to say the least. And after you spent 7-8 of your formative years in such an atmosphere,chances are you'd remain cautious and unlikely to experiment later on in life. So they stick to the boring fireballs, because that's what they've been drilled to use and it's good enough when you're the only game in town when it comes to channelling.

[HeronMarkedSoul]

I feel like the majority of the time when the AS engage they throw down as hard as anyone. Keep in mind how many of them have actually seen battle and/or had to use the one power as a weapon.

 

As far as the Greens, aside from the example you provided I can't recall the Greens ever doing anything that would give me pause as to their battle readiness. I thought of 2 examples right off the bat of the Greens being in the thick of it;

 

The Battle near Shadar Logoth when Rand & Nynaeve were cleansing. There were 4 greens there I believe, led by Cadsuane. These women were kicking ass and taking names...not just against random darkfriends, but the Forsaken themselves.

 

Recall Kiruna at Dumai's Wells, she was not what I'd call hesitant or shy wreaking destruction. Mr. Jordan's description from Perrin's PoV;

 

"A moment later he saw Kiruna, face serenely unconcerned, striding like a queen of battles along a path carved for her by three Warders and the fires that leaped from her own hands."

[DemandredFO]

Yes, but the Shaido are human, however good. How many Non-Rand or perrin AS will freeze when a Mydraal looks at them or they see hundreds of thousands of beastial shapes crawling toward Tar Valon. Not to mention I seriously doubt tiny hand-thrown fireballs would've saved anyone at the Battle of Maradon. Also, close combat can get you killed whereas waves of fire, deathgates and the like can kill from long distance.

[MasterAblar]

The AS are simply not trained to be warriors and fight. Compared to the Ashaman whose sole purpose is to be weapons or the Damane, there's not really much reason to expect them to be any good, especially seeing how reluctant AS are to innovate.

[sleepinghour]

The Battle near Shadar Logoth when Rand & Nynaeve were cleansing. There were 4 greens there I believe, led by Cadsuane. These women were kicking ass and taking names...not just against random darkfriends, but the Forsaken themselves.

They managed to keep the Forsaken from attacking Rand and Nynaeve, which was the important part, but it wasn't what I would call a success considering everyone except Alivia was fighting three against one.

 

Verin (Brown, lead), Kumira (Brown), Sea Folk woman vs Graendal = Kumira dead.

Daigian (White, lead), Beldeine (Green), Eben vs Aran'gar = Eben dead, Beldeine injured.

Damer (lead), Corele (Yellow), Sarene (White) vs Demandred = Sarene almost died.

Elza (Green, lead), Merise (Green), Narishma with Callandor vs Osan'gar = Osan'gar dead after Elza spotted him hiding.

Alivia vs Cyndane = Alivia injured.

 

The only circle that managed to kill a Forsaken was the Callandor one after Elza caught a glimpse of Osan'gar hiding behind a tree; there wasn't even any fight. And the only circle that actually fought a Forsaken without suffering any fatalities was the one led by an Asha'man.

[HeronMarkedSoul]

The Battle near Shadar Logoth when Rand & Nynaeve were cleansing. There were 4 greens there I believe, led by Cadsuane. These women were kicking ass and taking names...not just against random darkfriends, but the Forsaken themselves.

They managed to keep the Forsaken from attacking Rand and Nynaeve, which was the important part, but it wasn't what I would call a success considering everyone except Alivia was fighting three against one.

 

Verin (Brown, lead), Kumira (Brown), Sea Folk woman vs Graendal = Kumira dead.

Daigian (White, lead), Beldeine (Green), Eben vs Aran'gar = Eben dead, Beldeine injured.

Damer (lead), Corele (Yellow), Sarene (White) vs Demandred = Sarene almost died.

Elza (Green, lead), Merise (Green), Narishma with Callandor vs Osan'gar = Osan'gar dead after Elza spotted him hiding.

Alivia vs Cyndane = Alivia injured.

 

The only circle that managed to kill a Forsaken was the Callandor one after Elza caught a glimpse of Osan'gar hiding behind a tree; there wasn't even any fight. And the only circle that actually fought a Forsaken without suffering any fatalities was the one led by an Asha'man.

 

To me it was a success. I guess it depends on how many people you think are equal to one Forsaken. IMHO that number would be many since we are talking about beings that are thousands of years old, battle tested, knowledge of weaves/practices, etc. fighting against what could almost be considered children in comparison.

 

The fact that they could hang with them at all in only circles of 3 is almost astounding. Most of those present went from no combat experience to lightning hitting Cadsuane's shield from a Forsaken and then it was an explosive combat zone. I'd say they performed impressively.

[XXX]

What happened at Shadar Logoth was not a mass battle of chanellers...it was a bunch of individual engagements with the Aes Sedai aided by Ashaman and Callandor.

 

No one is saying that the Aes Sedai(at least some of them) cannot hold their own in individual engagements, where they fall far short are when they need to fight mass battles with other Channellers