The Dark One is the Creator?

[Kaju]

Hi! Long time sporadic lurker first time poster here :) I have a theory I've been thinking about and I'd like to introduce you to it so you can poke a hole in it or help me refine it. It's not a theory that necessarily has alot of backing in the books. More of a theory that if true would knit it all together very well.

 

To me the Wheel of Time saga has always been very much about duality and balance. Good vs evil, masculine vs feminine, etc. It has also been peculiar to me how the creator has been so completely absent from the world, while his "counterpart" the dark one has been very much involved. So I pose the following:

 

What if the creator was all there was and ever would be, and more or less completely balanced between good and evil. Neutral.. boring... What if the creator, in an effort to create something better, took most of the good parts of himself and made the pattern, but realised that in doing so the bad parts remaining in him would turn him to destroy his new creation and return again to the neutral mode. To combat this he built the pattern as a prison around himself to protect it from his future evil self.

 

This explains why the dark one exists and was "sealed at the moment of creation", as well as the total absence of the creator. It also goes well with the spirit of duality in the books. There are some holes in it though. The creator would have to have had more good than evil in him to begin with or he would have had no reason to come up with his idea of a good-favoured pattern containing the evil. On top of that the pattern is obviously not a thing of pure goodness (though if you put it in perspective against the dark one it's pretty close).

 

Well, holes or not I like the idea. Maybe it could be modified? Or easily dismissed with some information I've overlooked? Either way I'd like your input. Thanks :)

[Kal11]

Honestly if the ending played out along those lines somehow I would not be disappointed with it. Although I think the ending is going to most likely go in a different direction I like your theory, very nice first post

[Nightstrike]

Compuserve Chat 26 June 1996

 

Martin Reznick: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books . . . it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

Manichaean theology taught a dualistic view of good and evil. A key belief in Manichaeism is that the powerful, though not omnipotent good power (God) was opposed by the semi-eternal evil power (Satan). This addresses a theoretical part of the problem of evil by denying the omnipotence of God and postulating two opposite powers. Humanity, the world and the soul are seen as the byproduct of the battle between God's proxy, Primal Man, and Satan. The human person is seen as a battleground for these powers: the soul defines the person, but it is under the influence of both light and dark. This contention plays out over the world as well as the human body—neither the Earth nor the flesh were seen as intrinsically evil, but rather possessed portions of both light and dark. Natural phenomena (such as rain) were seen as the physical manifestation of this spiritual contention. Therefore, the Manichaean worldview explained the existence of evil with a flawed creation God took no role in forming and was the result of Satan striking out against God.[10]

Two separate entities.

[Kaju]

Compuserve Chat 26 June 1996

 

Martin Reznick: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books . . . it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

Manichaean theology taught a dualistic view of good and evil. A key belief in Manichaeism is that the powerful, though not omnipotent good power (God) was opposed by the semi-eternal evil power (Satan). This addresses a theoretical part of the problem of evil by denying the omnipotence of God and postulating two opposite powers. Humanity, the world and the soul are seen as the byproduct of the battle between God's proxy, Primal Man, and Satan. The human person is seen as a battleground for these powers: the soul defines the person, but it is under the influence of both light and dark. This contention plays out over the world as well as the human body—neither the Earth nor the flesh were seen as intrinsically evil, but rather possessed portions of both light and dark. Natural phenomena (such as rain) were seen as the physical manifestation of this spiritual contention. Therefore, the Manichaean worldview explained the existence of evil with a flawed creation God took no role in forming and was the result of Satan striking out against God.[10]

Two separate entities.

 

Ah that settles it. I expected someone would dig up something like this :) Thank you.

[Demon_AS]

Compuserve Chat 26 June 1996

 

Martin Reznick: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books . . . it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

Manichaean theology taught a dualistic view of good and evil. A key belief in Manichaeism is that the powerful, though not omnipotent good power (God) was opposed by the semi-eternal evil power (Satan). This addresses a theoretical part of the problem of evil by denying the omnipotence of God and postulating two opposite powers. Humanity, the world and the soul are seen as the byproduct of the battle between God's proxy, Primal Man, and Satan. The human person is seen as a battleground for these powers: the soul defines the person, but it is under the influence of both light and dark. This contention plays out over the world as well as the human body—neither the Earth nor the flesh were seen as intrinsically evil, but rather possessed portions of both light and dark. Natural phenomena (such as rain) were seen as the physical manifestation of this spiritual contention. Therefore, the Manichaean worldview explained the existence of evil with a flawed creation God took no role in forming and was the result of Satan striking out against God.[10]

Two separate entities.

 

Ah that settles it. I expected someone would dig up something like this :) Thank you.

I don't think your theory necessarily deviates from the dualistic view that Nightstrike posted. The Creator vs. The Dark One begs the question of where did they come from? Maybe when taken together, the two form a whole - ying/yang and all that.

 

Personally, I don't think anyone in Randland really understands who or what the Dark One is. I hope it's one of the reveals during AMOL, because it'll be a bit boring if the DO was defeated without any illumination on what he is or how he came to be. Or whether he's even masculine, despite that gender being ascribed to him.

[Nightstrike]

The BWB says that the DO is neither male nor female, but "it" is usually referred to as male. It also says that he has no true physical form, that he is outside & beyond the world, that he is the embodiment of evil, that he is not human, and that his abilities may be equal to the Creator's. It also says that he was imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of Creation.

 

I think it's safe to say that the Creator and the Dark One do not see eye to eye. Not just from what the BWB says, but from what we've seen and heard in the series & from RJ himself.

 

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

Kurafire: What happens to the soul of someone when he becomes a Gray Man? Is his thread removed from the Pattern, or are threads and souls different things altogether?

RJ: Err, they are... Oh, uhm, no, it is gone. It is gone. And it ceases to exist in any form that you could of as real.

Kurafire: So threads and souls are the same thing?

RJ: Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment. The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.

Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?

Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

"Neither", as in there's two of them.

[mb]

I recall a different theory (from version 7 of this forum) about the Creator and Dark One.

That theory told that the Creator and Dark One like switch roles every once in a while.

 

Not sure whether that theory is true or not (in regards to this series).

[Nightstrike]

Wouldn't that mean that both of them are evil? "Embodiment of evil"

 

The DO seems to take pleasure in everything evil. Shaidar Haran has a nasty personality...

[Demon_AS]

It all comes back to balance, which is a central pillar of a theme in the series. I'm not sure I necessarily agree that the DO and Creator swap places, but I can well consider that occasionally things might get "too good" - AKA the AOL - and the Bore was a corrective mechanism by the Wheel to return balance to the world. But, of course, that was a disproportionate response, resulting in Dark ages, and now spins out another Dragon (+2 ta'veren) to compensate. More than one ta'veren has surely got to be unusual, but in this case a perfectly proportionate response by the Wheel to the DO threatening to break free.

[Guest PiotrekS]

The theory is probably not correct because of the evidence shown in previous posts, but it is nevertheless very creative and interesting

 

It deals with one problem - if the Creator and the DO are two equal beings, how was the Creator able to imprison the DO and in such a way that the DO is unable to free himself?

[SylvanFox]

Why did the Creator imprison the DO, and why did he wait until creation to do so? Maybe he didn't seal the DO off to protect the pattern, but created the Pattern for the purpose of imprisoning him. So he would have been a threat to the Creator somehow. Probably because they are about equal. And the Creator.... what are the limits to what he has created? He made the Pattern, yes, but did he make anything outside of it? Did he make the DO, in the Christian way? Is he.... good at creating? Granted, the Pattern is a pretty piece of work, but is he maybe sitting it out because he is incompetent to handle it..... or because he simply is not there. He made something to seal the DO and went about his merry way, never giving a damn about his creation. I don't know.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I have come to think that people are wrong about the DO being sealed away in a prison. RJ has said that the BWB is information based on what the people in the wheel of time believe. While most of it is fact, it does not mean everything is entirely true. The people of the WoT THINK that the DO was imprisoned at the moment of creation.

 

I say that it is in part true, but not the way people think. The DO isnt actually imprisoned, the creator just created the pattern and sealed it, so the DO could not get in. SO the pattern is really sealed up, not the DO.

 

So the DO is like a theif trying to break into a house. The creator locked up up tight as he could.

 

This explains the whole creator/DO inbalance. If they are opposites, the creator couldnt actually hold the DO in a prison. But perhaps he could seal up the pattern so the DO couldnt get in.

 

Without help from the inside that is...

[Stitch]

Well as for taking the good parts and making the pattern, we are told that the pattern is neutral; and while Aes Sedai speak the truth as they see it (to an extent) I believe that they are correct in this regard.

 

Rather than the Creator having seperated the good and bad aspects of itself, I would rather suggest that the Creator surrounded itself in its creation, that reality was born around the creator itself and that as ages passed the Creator became influenced by its own creation, that the evil of humanity seeped into creation and the Creator itself. For the Creator who was neither good nor evil (as the pattern it had created) it was subjected to the good and evil of humanity and the evil had the greatest impact, tainting the Creator itself and 'driving it mad' (or rather teaching the Creator that being evil was the way to go). Now evil, the Dark One as it became known was first discovered (the very first emergence of the Dark One) trapped within its own creation the pattern, since the creator (now the dark one) was at the very centre of creation. After discovering the DO, the people within the pattern freak out then manage to seal it somehow, then forget all about it, then someone breaks the seal and the dark one is even more pissed than before, but someone manages to seal it all over again, then everyone forgets about it - and so on for a LOOOONG time. Hence we have a mad creator, aspiring to get free from its binds and in doing so it must destroy the Pattern, each time its efforts to escape are thwarted it becomes more and more angry, and all the time it is forced down, imprisoned by its own creation further twists it.

 

We are told this is to be 'final' time, so Rand must either permanently seal the DO (seems dubious unless he can create a seal that is more powerful than the Dark One will EVER be) kill or destroy the DO (again unlikely for the same reason - and how do you kill something that isnt 'alive' in the first place? back to that in a second) or else change the DO in some way (such as purifying the DO, by removing the rage etc). Now the killing something that isnt alive point is VERY interesting, we do know of ONE thing capable of destroying something rather than killing it - Balefire. Is it possible that Balefire will be used to remove the Dark One from the pattern (which, although we are told it must currently act within certain restraints imposed by the pattern, it is not quite within the pattern in the first place) - would this destroy the DO, destroy the pattern, or merely allow the DO to escape?

 

Personally I think that the Dark One is to be cleansed rather than destroyed, or perhaps otherwise removed from the pattern - unconstrained by its own creation.

 

 

For those arguing God/Satan... I dont want to get into a theological slugfest (isnt the place for it), but the argument is somewhat flawed given the history of Satan.

[NetSlider]

Oh boy, another one of these.

 

Well, without going into it too much (I've started working on this theory awhile ago and hopefully will finish it before the end of summer if I find time) but I have to say that the only way that the whole DO vs. Creator works is if DO is the Creator or part of the Creator (meaning, part of the creation if it makes sense). I know others don't agree but DO and the Creator are not equal (they logically can not be) in any way (if what we are told in the books is true about the Creator imprisoning DO in the beginning). And if it is not than DO seems to be stronger than Creator (as illogical as it might sound) for DO actually touches the world and the Creator does not (at least not as "directly", minus EotW cap, if it was him of course).

 

RJ is simply wrong when it comes down to it (that's right, I said it!). That's another reason I like WOT - RJ really left the whole subject very open; after all, one can draw clear parallels between DO and Creator and God/Satan (as was down above) and the debate there is hardly clearcut (at least in the way that one point of view can convince the other, that is).

 

I personally think it all comes down to choice of people at the end and if they worth the blessing of the Creator or destruction by DO. So what you say in your first post is very close to what I think as well.

 

In any event, yes I think DO is the Creator.

[NetSlider]

I have come to think that people are wrong about the DO being sealed away in a prison. RJ has said that the BWB is information based on what the people in the wheel of time believe. While most of it is fact, it does not mean everything is entirely true. The people of the WoT THINK that the DO was imprisoned at the moment of creation.

 

I say that it is in part true, but not the way people think. The DO isnt actually imprisoned, the creator just created the pattern and sealed it, so the DO could not get in. SO the pattern is really sealed up, not the DO.

 

So the DO is like a theif trying to break into a house. The creator locked up up tight as he could.

 

This explains the whole creator/DO inbalance. If they are opposites, the creator couldnt actually hold the DO in a prison. But perhaps he could seal up the pattern so the DO couldnt get in.

 

Without help from the inside that is...

 

I must say, very interesting idea.

 

Something new, at least to me. But even so, that means that Creator somehow is smarter/better/quicker/whatever than DO. I mean if they are truly balanced, nothing Creator does DO can not do/undo (from purely philosophical point of view). If they are truly balanced. And that's my problem when it comes to balance in its pure form, there is no movement whatsoever. No progress in any direction (in pure balance within infinity). There can be not fluctuations because then they are not balanced. Maybe that's the whole point of having a champion who will chose a movement (even if very temporary in the big picture) and will create a small fluctuation of power between DO and the Creator. But than there is pattern and the Wheel (whatever they really are in the "real" sense) that completely mass this whole idea.

 

It's getting a bit abstract, sorry . Anyways...so the weather is nice....

[Demon_AS]

Maybe we're ascribing personalities to nature.

 

What I mean is, everyone's making the assumption that the DO is evil and the Creator is good. It could just be that what people call the DO is a force that works for total annihilation - not inherently evil, but working towards its purpose. To counter this force we have the Creator - i.e. everyone in Randland who is an extension of the Creator. They strive for creation and existence - which is the Creator's purpose.

 

We're now in a state of imbalance - with the DO threatening to overwhelm Creation... and now we have three ta'veren spun out to rectify the balance.

 

The theory is pretty basic, but I'm no philosopher lol.

[DigitalSoul]

Some people compare the DO, the creator and the dragon with the hindu gods Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu.

they all have different parts to play, Shiva is the destroyer, Brahma the creator and Vishnu the preserver.

 

They have differents parts to play but all of them is still essential to the universe and the to the turnings of the wheel.

 

Maybe someone allready wrote about this, if that is the case, sorry for repeating

[Demon_AS]

Some people compare the DO, the creator and the dragon with the hindu gods Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu.

they all have different parts to play, Shiva is the destroyer, Brahma the creator and Vishnu the preserver.

 

They have differents parts to play but all of them is still essential to the universe and the to the turnings of the wheel.

 

Maybe someone allready wrote about this, if that is the case, sorry for repeating

I'm not sure we can equate the Dragon with the Creator... but I have seen a similar theory being proposed regarding our three Emond's Field ta'veren. Rand is the Destroyer, Perrin the Creator and Mat the Preserver.

[mb]

I guess DigitalSoul meant these::

-Dark One = Shiva

-Creator = Brahma

-Rand = Vishnu

[rand4747]

I don't think its so much as good versus evil, its more order/balance versus chaos/unbalance. The dark one certainly is evil, but his evilness is the manifestation of his being oposite to the balanced world of the creator, so the creator is not good or bad, what he does is seen as good though.

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

If, as the going idea seems to be, the world of Randland is our world, then it is blatantly obvious that the Creator is the Flying Spaghetti Monster (Pesto Be Upon Him).

 

It is therefore apparent that the Great Serpent is one of His Noodly Appendages tied and bent into a figure eight, and Infused With The Sauce. By extension, the Pattern, and all its living threads are thin spaghetti tied together to form the Great Lasagne Sheet known as the Age Lace.

 

It goes without saying that the Dark One is blatantly the Evil Antipasta, who can surely spoil the Great Lasagne Sheet, by unthreading and rotting the thin spaghetti of the Pattern. Rand, who is surely Touched By His Noodly Appendage, is a powerful Pastafarian with years of experience blending marinara, and will use the Sauce to seal the Bore.

 

The Antipasta does recruit from the Light. It is quite possible that Sammael was a Midgit.

[Aliriel]

If, as the going idea seems to be, the world of Randland is our world, then it is blatantly obvious that the Creator is the Flying Spaghetti Monster (Pesto Be Upon Him).

 

It is therefore apparent that the Great Serpent is one of His Noodly Appendages tied and bent into a figure eight, and Infused With The Sauce. By extension, the Pattern, and all its living threads are thin spaghetti tied together to form the Great Lasagne Sheet known as the Age Lace.

 

It goes without saying that the Dark One is blatantly the Evil Antipasta, who can surely spoil the Great Lasagne Sheet, by unthreading and rotting the thin spaghetti of the Pattern. Rand, who is surely Touched By His Noodly Appendage, is a powerful Pastafarian with years of experience blending marinara, and will use the Sauce to seal the Bore.

 

The Antipasta does recruit from the Light. It is quite possible that Sammael was a Midgit.

 

Ummm... Did you just happen to be watching an Itialian cooking show when you wrote this? Or maybe just really hanging out for a bowl of pasta?

I do agree about Sammy being some sort of midgit though .

 

A.

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

No, I had already Partaken of His Noodly Goodness before posting, which I believe is the reason behind my revelation that the Creator was in fact the FSM (Pesto Be Upon Him)

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

[True Source Creator]

If the Creator is the Flying Spaghetti Monster, then this whole series makes perfect sense. All plot threads not yet connected, or explained (better way to put it), won't need to be, because that's enough to explain them.