Cadsuane & Moraine

[FossMaNo1]

So, I'm going through a reread right now and a thought came to me... it's one I've had all along, but now that I'm older and more mature the more I wonder about it:

 

Was Casuane Robert Jordan's replacement for Moraine?

 

I ask this from a strictly dramatic point of view. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the WoT series was only supposed to be 6 books in length at its longest. Was Moraine slated to face Lanfear and end up with the Fins in the original plan? As the series began to take on a life of its own with the author, did he come upon a storyline where Moraine would end up captured with the Fins (something that would have great dramatic impact), yet leave a hole in the story he knew he needed filling: an Aes Sedai that was above reproach near Rand in the story?

 

Just musings about the writing process from an author who's own stories sometimes evolve this way...

[Smittyphi]

According to one of Min's viewings, Rand needs Moiraine if he is to survive TG.

 

I think Cadsuane was a replacement until Moiraine could return. Cadsuane still has her own Min viewings she needs to accomplish.

[mb]

Not sure if Robert Jordan intended Cadsuane to be a replacement of Moiraine.

 

Viewing of a dead and gone woman? From reading Encyclopaedia's Towers of Midnight pages, it seems that Moiraine is not currently a candidate for that.

Aviendha seems to have a better chance for that since she has had an actual return from death. Possibly also Lanfear/Cyndane.

And Tarmon Gaidon is not the only time for it to be fulfilled.

[Sharaman]

Not sure if Robert Jordan intended Cadsuane to be a replacement of Moiraine.

 

Viewing of a dead and gone woman? From reading Encyclopaedia's Towers of Midnight pages, it seems that Moiraine is not currently a candidate for that.

Aviendha seems to have a better chance for that since she has had an actual return from death. Possibly also Lanfear/Cyndane.

And Tarmon Gaidon is not the only time for it to be fulfilled.

Viewings of a woman Min thought was dead and gone. Won't say more until you've actually read ToM.

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

Possibly provided by the Pattern as a replacement but I'm fairly certain an Aes Sedai like Cads would do everything she could to get close to the Dragon, and she certainly wouldn't accept a position of irrelevance or be a sworn Aes Sedai. It will be interesting to see how it all goes down when Moiraine reappears. Rand's surprise and subsequent joy, and then '...wtf are you doing here Cadsuane...'

[mb]

It would be some time before I read Towers of Midnight. I do not mind spoilers if they are provided.

 

Like I implied in past threads, the Viewing has never been to me about thought/belief/etc.

[NitroS]

Possibly provided by the Pattern as a replacement but I'm fairly certain an Aes Sedai like Cads would do everything she could to get close to the Dragon, and she certainly wouldn't accept a position of irrelevance or be a sworn Aes Sedai. It will be interesting to see how it all goes down when Moiraine reappears. Rand's surprise and subsequent joy, and then '...wtf are you doing here Cadsuane...'

lol haha can just imagine the awkward looks with moiraine and rand next to each other looking at cadsuane as if she wasnt invited.

[Goldstar]

Cadsuane is Rand's advisor, correct? I tend to think of his relationship to Moiraine slightly closer. He truly trusts her, probably more than any Aes Sedai besides Elayne or Nyneave.

[Barid Bel Medar]

RJ had planned the whole thing.

 

Cadsuane was always meant to do what she has.

 

She is not a replacement for Rand. Not in the veiw of the reader.

In Rand's PoV, she is. She is his advisor etc...

 

But Moiraine and Cadsuane have always had two distinctly different roles. Moiraine was always going to "die", and Cadsuane was always going to be around to complete her task. RJ didnt just put her in to fill the hole that MOiraine left.

 

Cadsuane had to teach Rand and the Asha'man to laugh and cry etc...

 

Moiraine has to help Rand win the Last Battle in some way, as per Min's viewings. Most likely through the knowledge given to her by the Finns 2 other wishes.

[jshahmiran]

According to one of Min's viewings, Rand needs Moiraine if he is to survive TG.

 

I think Cadsuane was a replacement until Moiraine could return. Cadsuane still has her own Min viewings she needs to accomplish.

 

Has she not filled this? She had somthing important to teach Rand and the othere male channlers, I thought it was to laugh or to remeber that he is human and not a weapon and I think she has done this.

[Ferdawoon]

According to one of Min's viewings, Rand needs Moiraine if he is to survive TG.

 

I think Cadsuane was a replacement until Moiraine could return. Cadsuane still has her own Min viewings she needs to accomplish.

 

Has she not filled this? She had somthing important to teach Rand and the othere male channlers, I thought it was to laugh or to remeber that he is human and not a weapon and I think she has done this.

She have made Rand understand why he need to do what he need to do, but she have not really made the rest of the Asha'man feel that same thing. At least not until Rand go there and smack them around so they can see his point of view.

[Zhipp]

Not sure if Robert Jordan intended Cadsuane to be a replacement of Moiraine.

 

Viewing of a dead and gone woman? From reading Encyclopaedia's Towers of Midnight pages, it seems that Moiraine is not currently a candidate for that.

Aviendha seems to have a better chance for that since she has had an actual return from death. Possibly also Lanfear/Cyndane.

And Tarmon Gaidon is not the only time for it to be fulfilled.

It can't be Aviendha, because she never actually died. Rand Balefired Ravine so dang hard that he never even had the chance to kill Mat and Aviendha. He was dead before they even arrived. So Min, who reads the pattern, couldn't have seen any of that, because it never really happened...anymore. Besides, didn't Min say it was someone she thought was dead and gone?

 

EDIT: Sharamon already said that. heh. That's what I get for not refreshing the page before posting.

[FossMaNo1]

I do not understand why people keep saying Moraine was probably the Aes Sedai Rand trusted the most. It is somehow implied through these assertions that Moraine meant something to Rand, but that's not at all how I recall it. I am going through my reread of the series right now and what I see right before Moraine went through the doorway was that Rand was very mistrustful of her and so had sworn her to an oath of obedience so he could have some control over her. He didn't trust her because he knew she was manipulating him.

 

Now, was he sad that she died? Yes, of course he was, but it had more to do with the fact that yet another woman died because of him than it did because he liked or trusted her.

 

If I've missed nuances of their relationship, let me know!

[mb]

It can't be Aviendha, because she never actually died. Rand Balefired Ravine so dang hard that he never even had the chance to kill Mat and Aviendha. He was dead before they even arrived.

As long as multiple people remember a event (Asmodean's POV shows that people did), I would count the event as actually happening.

 

EDIT: Sharamon already said that. heh. That's what I get for not refreshing the page before posting.

And I replied to the post::

It would be some time before I read Towers of Midnight. I do not mind spoilers if they are provided.

 

Like I implied in past threads, the Viewing has never been to me about thought/belief/etc.

[sleepinghour]

I do not understand why people keep saying Moraine was probably the Aes Sedai Rand trusted the most. It is somehow implied through these assertions that Moraine meant something to Rand, but that's not at all how I recall it. I am going through my reread of the series right now and what I see right before Moraine went through the doorway was that Rand was very mistrustful of her and so had sworn her to an oath of obedience so he could have some control over her. He didn't trust her because he knew she was manipulating him.

 

Now, was he sad that she died? Yes, of course he was, but it had more to do with the fact that yet another woman died because of him than it did because he liked or trusted her.

 

If I've missed nuances of their relationship, let me know!

No, I think you're right about Rand mistrusting Moiraine (at least prior to her "death"), though it wasn't Rand who asked her to swear an oath of obedience--Moiraine did that on her own accord because he had stopped listening to her. Hence her comment to Egwene that she had "remembered how to control saidar." She knew from Rhuidean that other attempts to manipulate Rand--including sleeping with him--would have ended badly.

 

I think sometimes fans remember Rand and Moiraine's interactions as more positive than they actually were. Even the oath was about manipulating him, not a sincere attempt to show he could trust her. That said, I have no doubt their reunion will be a tearful one--just look at how happy he was when the King of Arad Doman showed up alive. He also praised her in ToM.

[Zhipp]

It can't be Aviendha, because she never actually died. Rand Balefired Ravine so dang hard that he never even had the chance to kill Mat and Aviendha. He was dead before they even arrived.

As long as multiple people remember a event (Asmodean's POV shows that people did), I would count the event as actually happening.

 

Sure, you could say it happened, but as far as the pattern's concerned it never did. So Min couldn't have seen anything about Avienda's "death", because it wasn't part of the pattern, right?

At least, that's how I see it.

[mb]

Same balefire helped fulfill another prediction.

[Asgard Thorin]

According to one of Min's viewings, Rand needs Moiraine if he is to survive TG.

 

I think Cadsuane was a replacement until Moiraine could return. Cadsuane still has her own Min viewings she needs to accomplish.

 

Has she not filled this? She had somthing important to teach Rand and the othere male channlers, I thought it was to laugh or to remeber that he is human and not a weapon and I think she has done this.

But we still don't know what the last impossible task Cadsuane had 230-270 years in the past. Somehow, I think she is also connected to the Prophecies. UIf nothing else, she's had a lot more time to study them, so she can help, as she did when she told Rand the Sword is flawed. She based that off an interpretation of the Commentary Prophecy that said, to her and later Min's mind that Rand would have to join in a circle

[Entreri]

Yes, but Cadusane is a pale imitation of Moraine, second string. Akin to LTT and Demandred.