WOT: The downfall of the series

[Mr Ares]

look at harry potter nobody saw dumbledore's death coming and when he died you were like WTF,

Really? Dumbledore was such an obvious character to kill, though. After all, he's Harry's mentor. You have to get the mentor out of the way somehow, so the hero can shine on his own.

 

For another Ned and Robb were to honourable to live anyway so they really shouldn't count.

I disagree - while both were honourable, in neither case was their downfall brought about by their honour, they both committed dishonourable acts. In fact, a combination of dishonourable acts and stupidity were what really did for them. Look at Ned: he tells Cersei he's planning to make amove against her, in order to give her the opportunity to run. She's a murderer - letting her escape is more or less letting her get away with murder (dishonourable) and telling her he's making a move was one of a number of stupid moves (trusting Littlefinger, not accepting Renly's offer of help). Robb is even more blatant: he pisses off the Freys by going back on his word (dishonourable) and marrying Jeyne Westerling. The Freys are allies, and fairly important ones, and Lord Frey is known to be rather prickly. Annoying them in this way gains him nothing, and he gains precious little from marrying a Westerling. What I would have done in Robb's position (assuming I gave a damn about honour) is arrange a marriage for her and ensure any child that might be mine is well cared for. In Ned's position, I would have taken the Baratheon kids in hand and sent them away before Stannis arrived (they're innocents, so protecting them is quite within the bounds of honour), while arresting Cersei. Ned tries to be honourable, but he also makes really stupid mistakes - a smarter man could have left with at least one out of honour or life, probably both, but Ned has neither by the end.

 

It's as if Adolf Hitler or Osama were sent back 3 millinia. They were evil and destructive before they died but would they be the same in 1,000 BC.

I don't know, but I have a sudden desire to find out. Coming soon: Hitler v. Jesus. Hollywood - make it happen.

[Suttree]

C'mon, tell me a book or movie where the good do not win

 

Joe Abercrombie-First Law Trilogy

 

R. Scott Bakker-The Prince of Nothing

[EvilSocrates]

Lot of straw getting tossed around up there: people are not saying kill all the characters! People are suggesting that the villains are not very threatening, and this bleeds tension out of the series, and also, because they are so built up in the lore, hurts the credibility of the world.

 

Someone pointed out that Fain is an effective villain in WoT, and I think that's a great point. He has both threat and in world plausibility.

(1)He is pure poison wherever he goes (probably part of the reason that Eladia is bonkers, and certainly caused all sorts of Whiteclock drama. Started to work on the Seanchan too.) Fain can make a scene threatening just be being near somebody important. RJ could have freaked us out by just having a scene where Fain introduces himself to the high lords of Tear. Moreover, he kills people important to the main characters, which is the main way you can add tension to a story without killing off super-important people. If Fain is ever around Tam, consider me nervous.

(2) He has an in-story explanation for why he doesn't pursue more effective avenues of killing the boys. Hes goddamn crazy, its personal to him, so he wants to hurt them in certain ways, and he doesn't want to reveal himself. He is just this traveling dangerous murderous force that causes awful wherever he goes.

(3) We are never entirely sure what his game plan is, or what his capabilities are. It adds tension like a good horror movie, where you don't really get to see the monster. You just see fain sitting there torturing a Myrddraal he somehow overcame near a bunch of Trollocs. Creepy. Great character.

 

The forsaken, in contrast, are pansies. Makes them poor villains. Ishamael is the only one who ever does anything useful, and possibly his apparent incompetence is due to him playing a different game than the other Forsaken. I wouldn't want to be a nameless redshirt Aes Sedai around one, especially Semmy, but they don't threaten the main characters at all. Makes the battles seem more like boss fights in a video game that an actual threat.

 

Any real tension in the novels comes from the main characters getting in each-other's way or the dark one's touch (long winter long summer (felt very oppressive to read--in a good way), famine, etc.

[randsc]

+1 to EvilSocrates. The only real tension left in the series is what exactly the post-TG world will look like.

[Wolf505]

I disagree - while both were honourable, in neither case was their downfall brought about by their honour, they both committed dishonourable acts. In fact, a combination of dishonourable acts and stupidity were what really did for them. Look at Ned: he tells Cersei he's planning to make amove against her, in order to give her the opportunity to run. She's a murderer - letting her escape is more or less letting her get away with murder (dishonourable) and telling her he's making a move was one of a number of stupid moves (trusting Littlefinger, not accepting Renly's offer of help). Robb is even more blatant: he pisses off the Freys by going back on his word (dishonourable) and marrying Jeyne Westerling. The Freys are allies, and fairly important ones, and Lord Frey is known to be rather prickly. Annoying them in this way gains him nothing, and he gains precious little from marrying a Westerling. What I would have done in Robb's position (assuming I gave a damn about honour) is arrange a marriage for her and ensure any child that might be mine is well cared for. In Ned's position, I would have taken the Baratheon kids in hand and sent them away before Stannis arrived (they're innocents, so protecting them is quite within the bounds of honour), while arresting Cersei. Ned tries to be honourable, but he also makes really stupid mistakes - a smarter man could have left with at least one out of honour or life, probably both, but Ned has neither by the end.

 

Ned's downfall wasn't that he was too honorable, it was that he expected others to live up to his standards. For example, he couldn't imagine Littlefinger betraying him, or that Cersei would do what she did. He expected them to do the right thing and they didn't. As for Robb, well, he let the little head do the thinking for him and it cost him his life, plain and simple.

 

To the original point of this thread though, I disagree completely that having major characters die is necessary. There are plenty of great stories told where it never happens. In fact, it could be seen as kind of a cop out. I don't think letting Ned live in ASOIF would've made the series any less. In fact, it really pissed me off when it happened since Ned was one of my favorite characters. On the other hand I don't think I've ever read a character in a book that I've hated more then Joffrey. I was rooting for him to get his skull caved in from pretty much the time he was introduced, and when he finally did die, I cheered. Most of the other "villains" in ASOIF have something that makes them entertaining, even Cersei is a good character when you read her POVs.

 

I think showing the world decay around our heroes and killing off people they love and care about is a far more interesting plot device then simply killing the heroes.

[idiostock]

There must be Aiel names for Gawyn, since Lan got a nickety-nack for cleaving through them with an "inferior" sword. Gawyn might not have ever been hit by an Aiel.

 

Not following you here. I thought Lan's nickname came from his personnel war against the blight. Didn't realize it had anything to do with fighting the Aiel.

 

I think that's Dai Shan, which the borderlanders named him. Unless I'm mistaken, the Aiel named him Aan'Allein for the time he spent in the eastern marshes, being a one man army (the same place Masema was went he fought Aiel and gained his racism).

 

Yeah, you're mistaken.

 

Aan'allein doesn't mean, "One Man Army." It means, "One man who is an entire nation" and it refers to Lan's status as the last of the Malkieri royal house, and his war againt the Shadow.

 

Well, my bad, I don't know how I got that in my head.

[Mr Ares]

I disagree - while both were honourable, in neither case was their downfall brought about by their honour, they both committed dishonourable acts. In fact, a combination of dishonourable acts and stupidity were what really did for them. Look at Ned: he tells Cersei he's planning to make amove against her, in order to give her the opportunity to run. She's a murderer - letting her escape is more or less letting her get away with murder (dishonourable) and telling her he's making a move was one of a number of stupid moves (trusting Littlefinger, not accepting Renly's offer of help). Robb is even more blatant: he pisses off the Freys by going back on his word (dishonourable) and marrying Jeyne Westerling. The Freys are allies, and fairly important ones, and Lord Frey is known to be rather prickly. Annoying them in this way gains him nothing, and he gains precious little from marrying a Westerling. What I would have done in Robb's position (assuming I gave a damn about honour) is arrange a marriage for her and ensure any child that might be mine is well cared for. In Ned's position, I would have taken the Baratheon kids in hand and sent them away before Stannis arrived (they're innocents, so protecting them is quite within the bounds of honour), while arresting Cersei. Ned tries to be honourable, but he also makes really stupid mistakes - a smarter man could have left with at least one out of honour or life, probably both, but Ned has neither by the end.

 

Ned's downfall wasn't that he was too honorable, it was that he expected others to live up to his standards. For example, he couldn't imagine Littlefinger betraying him, or that Cersei would do what she did. He expected them to do the right thing and they didn't. As for Robb, well, he let the little head do the thinking for him and it cost him his life, plain and simple.

As I said, stupidity was what finished them. Ned knew these people, knew they were not paragons of honour and fell short of his standards. He still put his faith in a man who said it was a good idea not to trust him, and told a woman he planned to move against her. As for Robb, it wasn't sex that brought him down, it was marriage. That came after his "little head" had done its part.

[David Selig]

Yes, both Ned and Robb were just too stupid to live in the cut-throat world of ASOIF. Especially Ned. Good riddance as far as I am concerned.

[b3arz3rg3r]

look at harry potter nobody saw dumbledore's death coming and when he died you were like WTF,

Really? Dumbledore was such an obvious character to kill, though. After all, he's Harry's mentor. You have to get the mentor out of the way somehow, so the hero can shine on his own.

 

Which sadly never happened. From what I can remember Harry stumbled through the last book without a clue or plan or even noteworthy skills and only at the end kinda lucked out.

 

As for WoT and character death I kinda agree that RJ fell a bit too much in love with his characters. He's writing for everyone to get a happy end.

- Bringing back Moiraine is fine, but having her end up together with Thom is a bit unnecessary.

- Lan and Nyneave while really lovable characters don't really need to get a happy end where they rebuild Malkier.

- It's okay for most of the Forsaken to die, but they should have atleast gotten a slight victory or atleast a draw somewhere. Say Rand attacks Sammael and the entire city gets wiped out in the process and Sammael still gets away. That sort of thing.

- Siuan and Byrne should have never happened and Siuan should be dead.

- Morgase should be dead. Rahvin should have killed her. End of her story.

- Birgitte? Moghedien should have killed her. She contributed nothing to the story but trivia.

- Also Gawyn and Egwene. Yeah we get it you are Super Amyrlin and Super Warder. Killing him off would have done the world a favor. Egwene as Super Amyrlin would have been more credible had she ended up alone. Which would be well in line with my thinking that you ought to pay a steep price for power.

 

Of course not everything on my list should have happened like that. But atleast some of it would have been good imo.

Like this it's like a Grimm fairy tale with an "and everyone lived happily ever after".

[Ananta]

To those who say that we should wait till the last book comes out before we complain about major deaths:

 

It's too late for that now. RJ could have planned to finish off all the main characters in the last book for all I know, but that's too late. It's the last book, so the impact of their deaths doesn't carry through your whole reading experience of the 13 (14) other books. Like, for example, in asoiaf, you're genuinely afraid for the main characters throughout the book series. You've seen some real major characters die, so you expect it can happen to other major characters too. While in WoT, you can read happily through the 13 first books and not have that feeling of suspense at all, even if they do die in the last book.

[Pantherus]

I've seen complaints before about knowing the good guys win and it ruining the suspense - but sometimes you just accept they're going to win/live and just enjoy reading with a cartoon-tv-series feeling of "how will our heroes get out of THIS one?" I personally hated ASOF&I because the "good guys" kept fricken dying and losing and I just got fed up with it.

 

As for the Forsaken doing nothing - something to remember is how much they do off-screen, and remember that, in addition to hunting down Rand etc, they also spent a lot of time and effort consolidating their bases of power (Ravhin in Caemlyn, Sammael in Illian, etc)

[NitroS]

look at harry potter nobody saw dumbledore's death coming and when he died you were like WTF,

Really? Dumbledore was such an obvious character to kill, though. After all, he's Harry's mentor. You have to get the mentor out of the way somehow, so the hero can shine on his own.

 

Which sadly never happened. From what I can remember Harry stumbled through the last book without a clue or plan or even noteworthy skills and only at the end kinda lucked out.

 

As for WoT and character death I kinda agree that RJ fell a bit too much in love with his characters. He's writing for everyone to get a happy end.

- Bringing back Moiraine is fine, but having her end up together with Thom is a bit unnecessary.

- Lan and Nyneave while really lovable characters don't really need to get a happy end where they rebuild Malkier.

- It's okay for most of the Forsaken to die, but they should have atleast gotten a slight victory or atleast a draw somewhere. Say Rand attacks Sammael and the entire city gets wiped out in the process and Sammael still gets away. That sort of thing.

- Siuan and Byrne should have never happened and Siuan should be dead.

- Morgase should be dead. Rahvin should have killed her. End of her story.

- Birgitte? Moghedien should have killed her. She contributed nothing to the story but trivia.

- Also Gawyn and Egwene. Yeah we get it you are Super Amyrlin and Super Warder. Killing him off would have done the world a favor. Egwene as Super Amyrlin would have been more credible had she ended up alone. Which would be well in line with my thinking that you ought to pay a steep price for power.

 

Of course not everything on my list should have happened like that. But atleast some of it would have been good imo.

Like this it's like a Grimm fairy tale with an "and everyone lived happily ever after".

i strongly agree the only thing that morgase being alive brings is he is happy that elaine gets her mother, i have a feeling that malkier will be rebuilt at the end. pretty much the majority of the points above were kept alive because of the love of the characters, i really cant see morgase being important in the last battle at all.

[NitroS]

I've seen complaints before about knowing the good guys win and it ruining the suspense - but sometimes you just accept they're going to win/live and just enjoy reading with a cartoon-tv-series feeling of "how will our heroes get out of THIS one?" I personally hated ASOF&I because the "good guys" kept fricken dying and losing and I just got fed up with it.

 

As for the Forsaken doing nothing - something to remember is how much they do off-screen, and remember that, in addition to hunting down Rand etc, they also spent a lot of time and effort consolidating their bases of power (Ravhin in Caemlyn, Sammael in Illian, etc)

seems like all grendal does is sit afk in her base with her 50 servants under her compulsion.

[WWWwombat]

I think WoT does need a bit more tension but idk how I would provide it.

 

For ASoIaF, Ned and Robb dying really pissed me off. I think Ned was worse though because it left loose ends with him and Jon Snow and with the Lyanna memories. Idk how Martin is gonna tie those up. Maybe Howland Reed.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think WoT does need a bit more tension but idk how I would provide it.

 

For ASoIaF, Ned and Robb dying really pissed me off. I think Ned was worse though because it left loose ends with him and Jon Snow and with the Lyanna memories. Idk how Martin is gonna tie those up. Maybe Howland Reed.

 

Jon will have to find out from someone else, say Barristan Selmy that he is the son of Lyanna and Aemon Targaryen.

[T00thbrush]

As for WoT and character death I kinda agree that RJ fell a bit too much in love with his characters. He's writing for everyone to get a happy end.

- Bringing back Moiraine is fine, but having her end up together with Thom is a bit unnecessary.

- Lan and Nyneave while really lovable characters don't really need to get a happy end where they rebuild Malkier.

- It's okay for most of the Forsaken to die, but they should have atleast gotten a slight victory or atleast a draw somewhere. Say Rand attacks Sammael and the entire city gets wiped out in the process and Sammael still gets away. That sort of thing.

- Siuan and Byrne should have never happened and Siuan should be dead.

- Morgase should be dead. Rahvin should have killed her. End of her story.

- Birgitte? Moghedien should have killed her. She contributed nothing to the story but trivia.

- Also Gawyn and Egwene. Yeah we get it you are Super Amyrlin and Super Warder. Killing him off would have done the world a favor. Egwene as Super Amyrlin would have been more credible had she ended up alone. Which would be well in line with my thinking that you ought to pay a steep price for power.

 

Agreed on all counts. Gawyn would have been super easy to dispose of during that fight against the Seanchan assassins. He should have died saving Egwene, that would have been a lot more interesting in terms of impact and character development (as well as a heck of a lot more believable). Siuan, Morgase and Gawyn are very good examples of characters that have enough importance that their death would have consequences and some emotional pull, whilst not hindering the storyline.

 

For such an adult, realistic world as WoT, I find it strange that it seems to be impossible for anyone of any consequence to stay dead or stay single (I mean RJ even paired up Juilin and the Panarch, or Domon and Egeanin... now, that's really quite thorough matchmaking work!).

[b3arz3rg3r]

As for WoT and character death I kinda agree that RJ fell a bit too much in love with his characters. He's writing for everyone to get a happy end.

- Bringing back Moiraine is fine, but having her end up together with Thom is a bit unnecessary.

- Lan and Nyneave while really lovable characters don't really need to get a happy end where they rebuild Malkier.

- It's okay for most of the Forsaken to die, but they should have atleast gotten a slight victory or atleast a draw somewhere. Say Rand attacks Sammael and the entire city gets wiped out in the process and Sammael still gets away. That sort of thing.

- Siuan and Byrne should have never happened and Siuan should be dead.

- Morgase should be dead. Rahvin should have killed her. End of her story.

- Birgitte? Moghedien should have killed her. She contributed nothing to the story but trivia.

- Also Gawyn and Egwene. Yeah we get it you are Super Amyrlin and Super Warder. Killing him off would have done the world a favor. Egwene as Super Amyrlin would have been more credible had she ended up alone. Which would be well in line with my thinking that you ought to pay a steep price for power.

 

Agreed on all counts. Gawyn would have been super easy to dispose of during that fight against the Seanchan assassins. He should have died saving Egwene, that would have been a lot more interesting in terms of impact and character development (as well as a heck of a lot more believable). Siuan, Morgase and Gawyn are very good examples of characters that have enough importance that their death would have consequences and some emotional pull, whilst not hindering the storyline.

 

For such an adult, realistic world as WoT, I find it strange that it seems to be impossible for anyone of any consequence to stay dead or stay single (I mean RJ even paired up Juilin and the Panarch, or Domon and Egeanin... now, that's really quite thorough matchmaking work!).

 

Just wait for

 

Cadsuane and Tam

Come on you know it's gonna happen. He didn't knuckle down under her which means she has to fall in love with him and make it a project of the next decades to make him accept her dominion.

 

Bela and Mandarb

A match made in heaven

 

Cenn Buie and Bair

Those two could have so much fun showing each other leathery skin and gnarled hands.

[Eichhörnchen]

I think WoT does need a bit more tension but idk how I would provide it.

 

For ASoIaF, Ned and Robb dying really pissed me off. I think Ned was worse though because it left loose ends with him and Jon Snow and with the Lyanna memories. Idk how Martin is gonna tie those up. Maybe Howland Reed.

 

 

Heh. Robb was a bland borish character and his demise not all that unwelcome. In all honesty I would be saddened if Jaime or Tyrion Lannister should go, they're definitely two of the most complex well-written characters in the book. Particularly Jaime who was more layers than one could guess from the first impression.

[Hunter]

I would just like to point out that futurehermit is a jerk for the Dragonlance spoilers. Really? You couldn't black that out or something. I'm royally pissed off right now.I get this forum has spoilers for WoT, but I didn't expect spoilers for every death in any series ever. Luckily I'd already read some of these, but the Dragonlance one I had not. :|

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

. . . um. . . about anna karenina. . . you might not want to get too attached. . .

[Pantherus]

I would just like to point out that futurehermit is a jerk for the Dragonlance spoilers. Really? You couldn't black that out or something. I'm royally pissed off right now.I get this forum has spoilers for WoT, but I didn't expect spoilers for every death in any series ever. Luckily I'd already read some of these, but the Dragonlance one I had not. :|

 

I knew about Sturm - but didn't know about Robb...