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"Slay his people with the sword of peace"


Seaine Sedai
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Right, so long story short, I was reading over the latest version of the FAQ, and I came across a few interesting entries.

Way back earlier in the series, there's a part where Moiraine mentions that the Karaethon Cycle is tricky, because with the wording of some of the prophecies we really don't know which ones Rand might have already fulfilled, and what he should do to fulfill some...etc.

She gives as an example: "He will slay his people with the sword of peace and break them with the leaf"

 

RIGHT, so the FAQ states that this has pretty much been fulfilled where Rand reveals to the Aiel that they used to be sworn to follow the Way of the Leaf. What I'd like to argue here is that only the SECOND half of that sentence applies here. He has not yet slain his people with the sword of peace.

 

Why? Well first off, Aiel have nothing to do with swords anyway. Won't touch them.

SECOND and most important: Aviendha's second trip through the pillars in Rhuidean in ToM.

She sees the destruction of the Aiel come about partially due to her children's pride and her descendants losing all knowledge of what it means to be Aiel. But what starts this? RAND declaring they could not fight the Seanchan, that HE had declared peace. The Aiel sort of partially accept the Dragon's Peace, but only partially. Then the people that all accept the Dragon's Peace get swallowed up by the Seanchan. The Aiel choose not to accept this, and it's their doom.

 

There are a few mentions of Rand dividing the land in two with a sword. I think he does this with the Dragon's Peace. Once the LB is done, Rand is tired of fighting, somehow agrees w/ the Seanchan "here's the line. Over there is yours, over here is mine. We don't fight." And as long as Rand is still around, they maybe respect that. But as soon as Rand is dead and gone, the Seanchan have no reason not to start conquering again, because they believe they have a perfect right to what was Hawkwing's kingdom anyway.

 

It's after midnight and this isn't typed up as elegantly as I would like, but I wanted to get it out before I hit the sack and see what others think. I think it's pretty self-explanatory. I'd certainly like to know if other WOT geeks have any opinions or thoughts in general on this new theory of mine (or if anyone else might have posted this. If so, I'm sorry. I don't religiously read the forums, just as much as I can).

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I also don't have a lot of time before bed, but I'd like to put out there that maybe we can look to Avi's visions to see what was meant. Rand leaves to do what he has to do after negotiating the "Dragon's Peace" with the various nations of the world, but he leaves the Aiel out, thus leaving them to the fate that will befall them.

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However, what's cool about this prophecy is that it could be fulfilled two ways IMO:

 

1. The way Avi saw, the Aiel aren't included in the Dragon's Peace and are eventually obliterated by the Seanchan

2. Avi, after seeing the visions in the columns, returns to the Aiel and influences them or Rand into including the Aiel in any peace treaties. The Aiel fundamentally change from a war-faring people to something different. The Aiel as we know it are slain, but not in the way one would think.

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Firstly, I always figured that as not touching swords was the one hold over from the Aiel's knowlage of the peace of the covenent that this made enough symbolic sense to let be...

 

However, the possible implications since Avi's trip through the columns are too tempting. Personally I'm not convinced by a return to the way of the leaf as the solution so much as a surrender of some kind to the seanchan, gai'shain(sp?) of a sort...

 

We have seen that servants (and slaves) hold very different kinds of positions in the seanchan empire, so there a precedent from their point of view for any manner of relationship (the ogier) and thematiclly, the books a chock full of people gain both power, strength and purpose through a surrender of some sort. Gawayn seems to be the latest example, and Perrin, and Rand on Dragonmount, and Egwene in the tower, and..ok, no great revelation here, but what are the thoughts on Ji to dealling with a surrendering Car'ra'carn (sp) and here I don't mean the Dragon.

 

What is the position of their honour knowing that they will have already been defeated should they now still fight?

 

I don't claim to be any expert on the workings of Ji to (hell I can't spell it)

 

 

Little help?

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However, what's cool about this prophecy is that it could be fulfilled two ways IMO:

 

1. The way Avi saw, the Aiel aren't included in the Dragon's Peace and are eventually obliterated by the Seanchan

2. Avi, after seeing the visions in the columns, returns to the Aiel and influences them or Rand into including the Aiel in any peace treaties. The Aiel fundamentally change from a war-faring people to something different. The Aiel as we know it are slain, but not in the way one would think.

I'm certain that #2 is what's coming. There are several indications of that. See Aiel need to convert to the Way of the leaf theory.

 

As for "slaying his people with the sword of peace", I agree with the OP that this has not been fulfilled. I believe that it will be fulfilled when the Aiel are included in the Peace of the Dragon and the Sword Justice that Rand now carries will play a major role in that. Hence the "sword of peace".

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I always interpreted this as Rand's revelation back in book 4 or 5 that the Aiel were descended from the Way of the Leaf, and that at some point further on down the road, the Aiel will cease to exist in their current state. The Shaido will split off from the rest of the Aiel and hold onto their traditions (the Remnant of a Remnant that will be saved), but the rest of the Aiel that follow him (the People of the Dragon) will eventually convert back to the Way of the Leaf.

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Thanks to those that responded.

 

I like the idea that now that Avi has seen the truth of how things could be if the Aiel are not included in the Dragon's Peace then she can do something to make sure that the Aiel will be saved and not wind up being scavengers that just die out as a whole.

Once the AOL comes around again anyway, who would have replaced the dedicated people who serve Aes Sedai? Someone in that society would need to function that way. The Aiel in some form are NEEDED.

 

I'm still curious to see if Justice has a part to play in this. I'm wondering how much of the aftermath of TLB we'll see in the next book and the effect it will have on everyone as a whole. And of course I'm waiting to see if I'm right if this is how Rand will "slay his people with the sword of peace"

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"sword" might at times point to any weapon. This case might be one of those times.

 

Thats interesting but i think it would have to be a general reference to all of those nations he had conquered for it to apply

 

As in, if the aiel are included then i think the word sword carries too much weight giving their feelings towards it and also aiel are also known as the dragon's people so it could be a roundabout way of calling them his people....just my thoughts

 

But if we are talking his people in general then that will probabaly be to do with the raven empire conquering the dragon empire in the far distant future because due to his peace they are all far too soft to stand up to the ravens OR the peace does not sit well with the aiel who then play that trick on involving andor by showing them the raven plans IN CASE andor enters the war which then triggers the eventual conquering of the dragon empire....but thats probably far to indirect a reference for the prophecy

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I always interpreted this as Rand's revelation back in book 4 or 5 that the Aiel were descended from the Way of the Leaf, and that at some point further on down the road, the Aiel will cease to exist in their current state. The Shaido will split off from the rest of the Aiel and hold onto their traditions (the Remnant of a Remnant that will be saved), but the rest of the Aiel that follow him (the People of the Dragon) will eventually convert back to the Way of the Leaf.

 

Yes I agree, he used peace (way of the leaf) and scattered them. Although I'm not sure that counts as 'slaying'

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About Justice, the "normal" sense of the word is not necessarily the same as peace. It may at times cause peace, but an act of justice can at times be considered violent. And peace from justice may at times be temporary; other violence doers can arise.

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I think that prophecy was fullfilled in the "Path of Daggers" i think..When he used Callandor to rain thunder on the Seanchan he ended up hurting his side too because of the flaw in Callandor.

an interesting idea but it doesn't work.

The prophecy says

He shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf.

Because of the second half it's clear that the prophecy talks of the Aiel. I don't see Rand destroying anybody else with a leaf.

But Rand didn't take any of the Aiel with him when he fought the Seanchan in tPoD. The maidens beat him up because of this afterwards. So he did't kill any of the Aiel with Callandor.

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One interpretation of "his people" could be "anybody that follows him".

I would consider such interpretation really forced here. If we take it to mean

 

"he shall slay his followers with a sword of peace and destroy them with a leaf" it still strongly implies the same group of followers in the first and the second halves and that's not the case with the Aiel and those who died for Rand while fighting the Seanchan in tPoD.

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The Aiel used to be pacifists, what we now know as Tinkers. The Aiel of the past were servants to the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends.

When Egwene try to search for Knowledge during her Dreaming, I believe it is during her captivity just before the Seanchan attack in tGS, she end up at a Tinker camp. She is suprised to see one as that would mean it have been there for a while.

 

It could be that the Aiel need to return to the Aes Sedai as servants.

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One interpretation of "his people" could be "anybody that follows him".

I would consider such interpretation really forced here. If we take it to mean

 

"he shall slay his followers with a sword of peace and destroy them with a leaf" it still strongly implies the same group of followers in the first and the second halves and that's not the case with the Aiel and those who died for Rand while fighting the Seanchan in tPoD.

A forced interpretation to me is not necessarily a wrong one.
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I still think that it refers to Callandor in the Path of Daggers. Just because both prophecies are in the same line, doesnt mean its going to happen at the same time. I also try to look up some references online to see what this could relate to and i found a passage in the bible: Psalms 78:62 "He gave his people over also unto the sword; and was wroth with his inheritance." Could be refering to the beginning how he didnt want to be the DR but had to do what he MUST. And technically hes already doing the second part of the prophecy, using the Aiel to bring order.

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However, what's cool about this prophecy is that it could be fulfilled two ways IMO:

 

1. The way Avi saw, the Aiel aren't included in the Dragon's Peace and are eventually obliterated by the Seanchan

2. Avi, after seeing the visions in the columns, returns to the Aiel and influences them or Rand into including the Aiel in any peace treaties. The Aiel fundamentally change from a war-faring people to something different. The Aiel as we know it are slain, but not in the way one would think.

 

This is good.

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However, what's cool about this prophecy is that it could be fulfilled two ways IMO:

 

1. The way Avi saw, the Aiel aren't included in the Dragon's Peace and are eventually obliterated by the Seanchan

2. Avi, after seeing the visions in the columns, returns to the Aiel and influences them or Rand into including the Aiel in any peace treaties. The Aiel fundamentally change from a war-faring people to something different. The Aiel as we know it are slain, but not in the way one would think.

 

This is good.

 

And the remenant of a remenant is the Shaido who have gone back into the waste for good.

 

I also think is is how it is going to be. The future could be changed all too easily. All she has to do is NOT sleep with Rand and that horrible ancestor would not be there to cheat the Andorians into attacking Seanchan.

 

Of course, saying that, somebody else may come along and do it, but talking about what Avi specifically saw, it is all too easy to change really.

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I think one way to look at this is that all the people are Rand's "people." He referred to the folks in Bander Eban, Tear, and Maradon as "his people."

 

Now we see that after Rand in gone the countries still keep their armies. All the Randland countries armies are made up of a coalition of private armies that the nobles have, there are a few exceptions like the Queen's Guard in Andor, the Defenders of the Stone in Tear, the Companions in Illian, and the Border Watch in the the Borderlands but for the most part it is lord so and so's armsmen and lord muckity muck's armsmen.

 

In the Seanchan empire all soldiers are part of the Ever Victorious Army. Nobles with armies of their own have a government position and their soldiers are their enforcers. But they are still first and foremost soldiers of the empire. Remember in tFoH when the Seeker told the soldiers that the noble in their group was under arrest.

 

Something we've seen about rallying armies in Randland is getting the nobles to side with who was doing the rallying. That was a big problem for Elayne.

 

Now you have the Raven empires large completely state run army going against a confederation of confederations. Look how well that turned out in the Aiel war when the other three clans all did what Janduin told them to but the alliance Marshall of the Armies changed daily.

 

The peace will fail. All peace does. But the Randland armies just can't compete with the Seanchan the way they operate.

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