Who do you feel most sorry for?

[Smittyphi]

And so it begins. And thus, I bow out. For anyone interested in my take read my vaguely passive aggressive position in my posts on page six of this thread.

 

Put the post number as my thread view is set to 40 and I have 4 pages for this thread

[Red2111]

again, as i said i don't care for Matt as a character. what i said about Tylin was a joke yes i realize that matt didn't force any woman to have sex with him the way Tylin did, tbh i don't relaly remember that part in the book because Matt has never been a character i was attached to and there fore cared enough about to retain events surrounding him. all i really remember about the encounter is some S&M with a pink scarf when i get to that point in my re-read a few months from now i might have a different opinion, as with the last book i acutally started to like Matt. but even now in tDR, i still dislike and mainly because of his attitude towards both woman, responsability and Rand. look at all Rand does for Matt in the first two books and the best wishes matt has for Rand is "Even if i knew the answers, he probably couldn't help Rand. He wasn't sure he would if he could."

 

then how he treats Perrin as well, theres a same lack of carring what happens to him, in it for his self selfish nature only help because i can't get out of it. and he's liek that about every single responsability he has, he doesn't even own up to the fact he contradicts himself with the whole "holding it against Perrin & Rand for acting iek a lord" while self pittying becuase peopel are shoving the Lord status on him (just like what happened with Perrin & Rand)

 

then theres his outlook on Women. in tGH when they go into the Stedding & Loial talks about how ogier men have no choice; Mat boost about how men do all the choosing and do what they want and theres nothign woman have a say in. Rand corrects him and he goes all silent and sulky. and that mentality about women, being nothing more than cattle to be judged and a pretty to dangle on his lap doesn't change until ToM and even then only slightly so. and don't even get me started on his lack of accepting responsability for Olver's actions concerning women!

 

 

do i condone what Tylin did, no. Do i feel sorry for Matt, absoltley not. and before you ask, no i'd never pick the Red Ajah lmao even though from reading that one might think i would i'm Blue to the core!! *grins proudly*

[Zentari]

And it gets under mine when people don't bother to read or think about what they've read before deciding somethings gotten under their skin and leaping in guns blazing, so I suppose you'll forgive me if I sound a little rude or hot blooded in return.

Guns blazing ? No, not by a long shot.Still I get what you mean,though that is AFTER you elaborated on it.

[Mighty Chin]

I feel sorry for It's Always Sunny

[Sleeper]

I feel sorry for It's Always Sunny

I don't.

 

She puts her opinions on the web, she's going to get feedback for them. That's kind of the point. If a lot of the feedback is criticism, well that's just b/c her opinion on the books is polarizing.

[Elan Tedronai]

yes men can't be raped by woman. If the desire ain't there, the male sexual organ will fail to function. Basic stuff. Which means it is not possible for a man to get raped in the tradtional sense. Reminds me about those stories in the news where teachers have affairs with 16 year old students.

[Sleeper]

yes men can't be raped by woman. If the desire ain't there, the male sexual organ will fail to function. Which means it is not possible for a man to get raped.

Woooooowwwwwwwwwwww......

[Zentari]

yes men can't be raped by woman. If the desire ain't there, the male sexual organ will fail to function. Basic stuff. Which means it is not possible for a man to get raped in the tradtional sense. Reminds me about those stories in the news where teachers have affairs with 16 year old students.

Education time!.I highly suggest checking for references and doing a search of your own.

[Elan Tedronai]

yes men can't be raped by woman. If the desire ain't there, the male sexual organ will fail to function. Basic stuff. Which means it is not possible for a man to get raped in the tradtional sense. Reminds me about those stories in the news where teachers have affairs with 16 year old students.

Education time!.I highly suggest checking for references and doing a search of your own.

 

 

that's why i said in a 'traditional sense' in my post. You're not telling me that tylin took a strap on to mat are you?

[Sleeper]

yes men can't be raped by woman. If the desire ain't there, the male sexual organ will fail to function. Basic stuff. Which means it is not possible for a man to get raped in the tradtional sense. Reminds me about those stories in the news where teachers have affairs with 16 year old students.

Education time!.I highly suggest checking for references and doing a search of your own.

 

 

that's why i said in a 'traditional sense' in my post. You're not telling me that tylin took a strap on to mat are you?

Did you not read the part where it says "male erectile response is involuntary, meaning that a man need not consent mentally or physically for his penis to become erect"? Basic stuff.

 

That's pretty much that, we're arguing something that's already been settled long ago. Men can be raped by women.

[Zentari]

that's why i said in a 'traditional sense' in my post. You're not telling me that tylin took a strap on to mat are you?

Rape of a man by a woman could also occur when limited sexual activities are agreed upon and a man's penis is placed in a woman in violation of the limits that had been set. Rape of a man by a woman is thus possible in several ways.

Next time, take the time to read.It is worth noticing how Mat did not even get that choice, no sexual activities were agreed at all.

 

So unless you are stating that finding someone hot gives that someone carte blanche to force themselves on you,effectively denying you any choice on the matter,your "argument" cannot stand.

[Erunion]

yes men can't be raped by woman. If the desire ain't there, the male sexual organ will fail to function. Basic stuff. Which means it is not possible for a man to get raped in the tradtional sense. Reminds me about those stories in the news where teachers have affairs with 16 year old students.

Education time!.I highly suggest checking for references and doing a search of your own.

 

 

that's why i said in a 'traditional sense' in my post. You're not telling me that tylin took a strap on to mat are you?

Did you not read the part where it says "male erectile response is involuntary, meaning that a man need not consent mentally or physically for his penis to become erect"? Basic stuff.

 

That's pretty much that, we're arguing something that's already been settled long ago. Men can be raped by women.

 

Yup. Worse still, because of the huge societal/legal double standard, and the fact that very few men would ever admit to being sexually assaulted by a woman, it isn't a particularly well known crime.

 

Personally, I'd never really thought of it until recently, but simple logic will lead you to conclude that it is possible.

Unfortunately, I doubt Mat will ever admit to it in that sense, and he certainly refused to admit it to himself, hence his strong case of Stockholm syndrome.

[Zentari]

 

Personally, I'd never really thought of it until recently, but simple logic will lead you to conclude that it is possible.

Unfortunately, I doubt Mat will ever admit to it in that sense, and he certainly refused to admit it to himself, hence his strong case of Stockholm syndrome.

Even if he DID admit it, what could he do about it, given the general conditions and societal structure while that happened ? Nothing , which only serves to further his escapist behavior.

[Elan Tedronai]

yes men can't be raped by woman. If the desire ain't there, the male sexual organ will fail to function. Basic stuff. Which means it is not possible for a man to get raped in the tradtional sense. Reminds me about those stories in the news where teachers have affairs with 16 year old students.

Education time!.I highly suggest checking for references and doing a search of your own.

 

 

that's why i said in a 'traditional sense' in my post. You're not telling me that tylin took a strap on to mat are you?

Did you not read the part where it says "male erectile response is involuntary, meaning that a man need not consent mentally or physically for his penis to become erect"? Basic stuff.

 

That's pretty much that, we're arguing something that's already been settled long ago. Men can be raped by women.

 

 

wow, you learn something new everyday. That's just impossible. A brain clouded by fear and terror will not fuel the necessary impulses to stimulate a male's genitals. not to mention the need for continual stimulation to prolong the act

[Sleeper]

yes men can't be raped by woman. If the desire ain't there, the male sexual organ will fail to function. Basic stuff. Which means it is not possible for a man to get raped in the tradtional sense. Reminds me about those stories in the news where teachers have affairs with 16 year old students.

Education time!.I highly suggest checking for references and doing a search of your own.

 

 

that's why i said in a 'traditional sense' in my post. You're not telling me that tylin took a strap on to mat are you?

Did you not read the part where it says "male erectile response is involuntary, meaning that a man need not consent mentally or physically for his penis to become erect"? Basic stuff.

 

That's pretty much that, we're arguing something that's already been settled long ago. Men can be raped by women.

 

 

wow, you learn something new everyday. That's just impossible. A brain clouded by fear and terror will not fuel the necessary impulses to stimulate a male's genitals. not to mention the need for continual stimulation to prolong the act

Wow, I'm sorry, I guess science is wrong. Let me go tell those scientists that because Elan Tedronai thinks it's impossible, then it's impossible.

 

Seriously, man?

[Zentari]

wow, you learn something new everyday. That's just impossible. A brain clouded by fear and terror will not fuel the necessary impulses to stimulate a male's genitals. not to mention the need for continual stimulation to prolong the act

Orgasms can happen as the result of forced sexual contact as during rape or sexual assault, and are often associated with feelings of shame caused by internalization of victim-blaming attitudes. The incidence of those who experience unsolicited sexual contact and experience orgasm is very low, though possibly underreported due to shame or embarrassment. Involuntary orgasms can happen regardless of gender.

More importantly:

 

Even if you have an orgasm during a sexual assault it is still rape. That is because rape is having sex with someone when they do not consent or are incapable of consenting. The consent required is an affirmative verbal consent which indicates the person's own decision arrived at while under no duress or coercion. On the other hand, an orgasm is a mere physiological response to stimulation of the erogenous zones during sex. An orgasm or sexual pleasure in general can occur in the victim of the assault despite the fact that he/she does not wish to engage in the sexual activity with the rapist. But, such an occurence is not at all relevant to the victim's lack of consent and cannot replace an affirmative indication of the victim's intention to voluntarily participate in sexual activities with the other person.

 

EDIT: Forgot to give a few details: Roy J. Levin, Willy van Berlo

Journal of Clinical Forensic Medicine

April 2004 (Vol. 11, Issue 2, Pages 82-88)

[Seeker Matt]

yes men can't be raped by woman. If the desire ain't there, the male sexual organ will fail to function. Basic stuff. Which means it is not possible for a man to get raped in the tradtional sense. Reminds me about those stories in the news where teachers have affairs with 16 year old students.

Education time!.I highly suggest checking for references and doing a search of your own.

 

 

that's why i said in a 'traditional sense' in my post. You're not telling me that tylin took a strap on to mat are you?

Did you not read the part where it says "male erectile response is involuntary, meaning that a man need not consent mentally or physically for his penis to become erect"? Basic stuff.

 

That's pretty much that, we're arguing something that's already been settled long ago. Men can be raped by women.

 

 

wow, you learn something new everyday. That's just impossible. A brain clouded by fear and terror will not fuel the necessary impulses to stimulate a male's genitals. not to mention the need for continual stimulation to prolong the act

 

I don't understand your post. You say you learn something new everyday and then say it's impossible...

[capuga]

yes men can't be raped by woman. If the desire ain't there, the male sexual organ will fail to function. Basic stuff. Which means it is not possible for a man to get raped in the tradtional sense. Reminds me about those stories in the news where teachers have affairs with 16 year old students.

Education time!.I highly suggest checking for references and doing a search of your own.

 

 

that's why i said in a 'traditional sense' in my post. You're not telling me that tylin took a strap on to mat are you?

Did you not read the part where it says "male erectile response is involuntary, meaning that a man need not consent mentally or physically for his penis to become erect"? Basic stuff.

 

That's pretty much that, we're arguing something that's already been settled long ago. Men can be raped by women.

 

 

wow, you learn something new everyday. That's just impossible. A brain clouded by fear and terror will not fuel the necessary impulses to stimulate a male's genitals. not to mention the need for continual stimulation to prolong the act

 

Perhaps the dumbest thing I have seen posted on these boards.

[Mr Ares]

I still don't know which side I fall on. I agree with Luckers on his points but they only thing that doesn't ring true to me is my initial, gut, knee-jerk reaction is Mat did want it deep down. He could easily disarm Tylin but chose not to. Like I said, it was my initial reaction and I still feel that way. You can reply to this but I won't reply back as I have read many arguments when I was lurking before.

Could he get his men, who he obviously feels responsible for, out of a Seanchan-occupied city? How about Olver? The Aes Sedai he has promised to help?

Given that Tylin was sleeping with Mat before the Seanchan arrived, they are rather a non-factor in the discussion.

[Luckers]

yes men can't be raped by woman. If the desire ain't there, the male sexual organ will fail to function. Basic stuff. Which means it is not possible for a man to get raped in the tradtional sense. Reminds me about those stories in the news where teachers have affairs with 16 year old students.

Education time!.I highly suggest checking for references and doing a search of your own.

 

 

that's why i said in a 'traditional sense' in my post. You're not telling me that tylin took a strap on to mat are you?

Did you not read the part where it says "male erectile response is involuntary, meaning that a man need not consent mentally or physically for his penis to become erect"? Basic stuff.

 

That's pretty much that, we're arguing something that's already been settled long ago. Men can be raped by women.

 

 

wow, you learn something new everyday. That's just impossible. A brain clouded by fear and terror will not fuel the necessary impulses to stimulate a male's genitals. not to mention the need for continual stimulation to prolong the act

Wow, I'm sorry, I guess science is wrong. Let me go tell those scientists that because Elan Tedronai thinks it's impossible, then it's impossible.

 

Seriously, man?

 

It amuses me, at this point, to point out that this is precisely the reason that I suggested we discuss this in terms of sexual assault as opposed to rape. Whilst Elan Tedronai's position is evidentally wrong, the misguided perception remains vis'a'vis what constitutes a rape, but thus this argument diverges, and allows Elan Tedronai to, in a confidence of his own perception, catagorically dismiss wrong doing.

 

However, whatever misunderstandings you hold about what is and is not rape, you cannot deny that Tylin locked Mat in his room, starved him, and pulled a knife when he refused to have sex with her--or do you do so, Elan Tedronai? I can, of course, provide quotes...?

 

And, I'm very sorry to inform you of this, Elan Tedronai, but whether Mat achieved an erection in the result of that, whether he managed an orgasm, those initial violations constitute the act as a sexual assault, which under our laws equates the same response as any--what was the phrase you invented? 'traditional rape'?

 

In point of fact, the presense of a knife makes Tylin's assault on Mat an aggravated sexual assault including a bladed weapon. She'd go away for a long time.

 

 

 

As it is, though, you're all letting Elan Tedronai bog you down in the argument that an erection precludes a rape, which based on his arguments thus far is being presented based on his preconceptions, not facts, and thus you are unlikely to convince him. For myself, I prefer not to bother.

[EvilSocrates]

Elan, I'm about to blow your mind. Even paraylized men--who have no feeling in the penis--can get erections! Turns out, men can have "reflex erections," which require no conscious arousal, and only require a sufficiently functioning nerve connection to the spine. HOWS ABOUT THAT.

 

Re, sexual assault. Actually, the history of this language is interesting, and Luckers alluded to it in his posts. The crime of rape has had different legal requirements over the years. For example, women used to have to show that they "resisted to the upmost" in some jurisdictions (meaning only forcible rape counted). Another example: wives specifically could not be raped by husbands. Also, and relevant here, the term usually excluded non-consensual sex that was anything other than a man forcing a woman. Thus, a man could not rape another man, or be raped by a woman (they had sodomy statutes and adultery statutes for that stuff though.) Various feminist activists wanted to change the legal definitions, and they did. In some cases, they wanted to come up with a different term, so as to divorce the current crime from its more narrow past. Hence, "sexual assault" (of various degrees, first degree being forced penetrative sex).

 

That said, Luckers, as the term is used in legal thought today, sexual assault is LESS PRECISE, not more precise. Rape is sexual assault that includes penetrative sex, which is what happened here (Mat and Tylin), and is therefore the better (more precise) term. Sexual assault can also mean unwanted touching (someone grabbing your ass) for example.

 

ON TOPIC:

Hopper has it worst, in the context of the setting. Any given final death is likely worse than a non-final death that still gets you rebirth/afterlife.

[Guest cindy.]

i hope hopper escaped the wheel and the rebirth cycle and went to heaven. yeah, i know, but i'm penciling heaven in for my own sake and hopper's.

[Bluedust9]

Elan Tedronai is a known troll, geez guys.

[Sleeper]

Elan Tedronai is a known troll, geez guys.

If he's trolling, then I'm pretty impressed, and I've had a LOT of experience with trolls.

 

However, I think this comic says it best.

[Guest cindy.]

definitely a troll, or at least playing with you, if there's a difference.