Thoughts on Logain

[master]

I'd say its more likely he ousts taim. But it would be funny in he marries the current queen after the damage he did. Actually, replace funny with hilarious.

[MasterAblar]

Or shaved off his beard.. Oops, no, he doesn't have one. Grow one maybe

 

A bearded, hairless Logain. I have to admit, that's a pretty good disguise.

[Elan Tedronai]

ousting taim is worthless glory.

 

No the real glory will be him becoming the first amongst the ashamen to be truly raised as Aes sedai. Currently only rand has that position. All the ashamen will follow logain once rand disappears from the scene.

[LeeM.Erickson]

This has sort of become a debate on whether or not the Asha'man will relocate to Tar Valon or not, but I'll bring it back to Logain...(for the record, I think Elaida's palace will become the new Black Tower)

 

I always had sort of my own personal loony theory about Logain's glory. I don't really believe it, but it's something I considered. Basically it would be that Logain ends up being remembered as the Dragon Reborn, after a long time of the stories becoming muddled. Basically like Final Fantasy Tactics, where the real hero is lost to the mists of time while someone else gets all the glory from it. It has some appeal as this is likely something that happens in real life, certain people become remembered as heroes for things that they might not have even done. A sort of example would be Columbus discovering America, for instance. There's a little bit of reference to this in the books as well, where Thom and Elayne are on the Sea Folk ship in TSR, and Thom says something about how stories change so much that in the future, someone else might be remembered as the hero of this Age (I don't have my book handy, but I think he jokingly says he himself could be remembered as such). I really doubt this will be the case as it would seem really disappointing to all of us readers that Logain gets all the glory for Rand's deeds, but there is a certain logic to it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

1. It's interesting how the viewing is phrased "beyond what any "MAN" could dream of." Hinting towards something involving the White Tower, for 3000 years all female. Fits with the co-Amyrlin over the Asha'man theory, or something similar.

 

2. Egwene's dream of Logain i always interpreted as his defeat of Taim.

- stepping over what looks like Rand's body, but his face is a paper mask etc.. - Taim is/was a false Dragon. Remember the Black Ajah plot from TSR about them using Taim to do crazy stuff in the name of the Dragon reborn.

 

- He steps over black stone, which of course, metaphorical Black Tower.

 

 

Anyway, I dont really have a fixed theory, just two points that may add or take away from various theories.

[Lisa Campbell]

'Logain's glory' as in Min's vision, seems markedly like the vision of Sheriam (shining halo of blue and silver). I know that supposedly if Min knows the meaning from her reading it is bound to be true, but what if she inferred that meaning?

[Thor]

Min never saw any glory in Sheriam. but as soon as he saw Logain's, she KNEW it was glory.

[Lisa Campbell]

She did, and it was related to Sheriam's beheading.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Well, I was just finishing a reread of ACoS and, I believe it was the viewing Min had of Caraline Damodred and High Lord Darlin getting married, where she saw red and white flashes around them. She notes to herself that the colors that she sees don't matter. So I wouldn't look too hard into the colors of auras or halos that Min sees in viewings. There's nothing about green and brown that indicate sisters hurting Rand, but she knew what it meant (although I believe the colors were described as "sickly" which would indicate something not good). But because she saw blue and gold around Logain and the viewing told of glory, doesn't mean blue and gold = glory necessarily. What happened to Sheriam sure wasn't glorious.

[Thor]

She did, and it was related to Sheriam's beheading.

 

she didn't, stop making up nonsense.

[FarShainMael]

She did, and it was related to Sheriam's beheading.

 

Min saw colours: 'Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light'. These colours did not mean 'beheading'; they were associated with Sheriam's beheading - the silver was the axe, the blue was the dress she was wearing, the soft golden light was sunshine through a thinning in the clouds (interesting, that - what was Rand doing at that moment?). Similarly, the blue and gold Min saw in Logain's Viewing-aura do not mean glory, but they may be associated with it, as I commented earlier.

[Kahsm]

I don't think she ever guesses at meaning (at least not without saying so), though it is possible. "The knowing", as it's referred to in the text is part of the talent. Sometimes she gets it, sometimes she doesn't. It's not that she had puzzled things out from previous experience.

[SqueeEGA]

@ lmerickson: I've thought the same thing for quite some time. Logain steps over Rand and takes the throne, laughing maniacally, Rands face shattering. Rands face shatters b/c his name is lost to time, where Logain, who ends up leading the Asha'man, is remembered as The Dragon Reborn. He's laughing maniacally b/c of the sheer irony of the whole situation. I'd find that to be oddly appropriate.

 

I also like the idea of the Asha'man seating themselves in Elidas palace. Nothing introduced in this series is unimportant. Since that tower exists, at least in part, it must be there to serve a purpose. and one of the primary themes of the series is gender co-operation, so it makes some sense. The idea of them staying in Andor seems absurd. Tar Valon is the seat of channeling in the world, so it would make sense that, now that saidin is clean, the men would seat themselves there as well. I can see Egwene offering the option to the Asha'man herself...at least after getting to know some of them, particularly Flynn (sp?). He seems so reasonable.

[MasterAblar]

I also like the idea of the Asha'man seating themselves in Elidas palace. Nothing introduced in this series is unimportant. Since that tower exists, at least in part, it must be there to serve a purpose. and one of the primary themes of the series is gender co-operation, so it makes some sense. The idea of them staying in Andor seems absurd. Tar Valon is the seat of channeling in the world, so it would make sense that, now that saidin is clean, the men would seat themselves there as well. I can see Egwene offering the option to the Asha'man herself...at least after getting to know some of them, particularly Flynn (sp?). He seems so reasonable.

 

The Wise Ones, Windfinders and Seanchan disagree.

 

There is 3000 years of hate, fear, and prejudice in the way of a reconciliation so I have very hard time seeing it happen so quickly and easily. Egwnene and the Aes Sedai don't see the Ashaman as equals, and until they do I don't see the Ashaman agreeing to any kind of agreement. Even the most reasonable Ashaman like Androl don't trust the Aes Sedai one bit. Those who are bonded with Aes Sedai, like Flinn might feel somewhat differently, but not necessarily towards the Aes Sedai as a whole. And even if they were regarded as equals, the Ashaman might not want to put limits on themselves joining with the Aes Sedai. They're a new organisation with everything to build whereas the Aes Sedai have outdated laws and traditions always getting in the way. Joining together might not be advantageous for the Ashaman at this point. And beyond that the Ashaman are rather proud of who they are, and going to Tar Valon might look like having an Aes Sedai leash put on them to most people. I don't see what's particularly absurd about staying in Andor. Besides, Elaida's tower is at the foundations point. It'll take quite some time for it to be built. Personally I neither see Egwene offering the option, nor the Ashaman accepting. At least not in the short term.

[hurryupnwait]

I disagree that the tower is just foundations at this point. In one of my earlier posts I discuss Elaida pov chapters in which she thinks on going over the mini model tower to discuss progress on her tower. She also thinks on how upset she is that the sisters are not working on her tower as much as she wants them to. Though she wants more cooperation a partly power constructed project would likely have made decent progress. This Tower from reasonable deduction is clearly beyond the foundation stage.

[MasterAblar]

I disagree that the tower is just foundations at this point. In one of my earlier posts I discuss Elaida pov chapters in which she thinks on going over the mini model tower to discuss progress on her tower. She also thinks on how upset she is that the sisters are not working on her tower as much as she wants them to. Though she wants more cooperation a partly power constructed project would likely have made decent progress. This Tower from reasonable deduction is clearly beyond the foundation stage.

 

She {Elaida} strode to the nearest window and stood staring down toward where her fantastical palace would rise to overtop the Tower itself. Eventually. If sisters could be convinced to work on it again. The heavy rain that had begun during the night was still falling, and it seemed unlikely she could see anything of that palace's foundations, all that had been completed so far.

 

I believe this is the last time progress on the Tower is mentioned, and it's very unlikely work started up again. It'll certainly have stopped after Egwene was declared Amyrlin. This is from Tarna's point of view, and I think the only time Elaida has a pov after this is when she is captured in tGS, and she is understandably quite unconcerned with her tower at that point.

[hurryupnwait]

Master Ablar, I concede the point to you on the Tower's progress. That was an impressive bit of research right there.

[Kahsm]

The fact that it's just a foundation makes it more likely to me. They'll just build a tower similar to the white one on that foundation instead of the palace, which would obviously not be appropriate for an organization to use as a "school/academy".

[randsc]

Chekhov's Gun. Look it up.

 

Why was the other tower mentioned, repeatedly, if it serves no further role in the story?

[MasterAblar]

The fact that it's just a foundation makes it more likely to me. They'll just build a tower similar to the white one on that foundation instead of the palace, which would obviously not be appropriate for an organization to use as a "school/academy".

 

And where do the Ashaman live while it's being built?

[Suttree]

Chekhov's Gun. Look it up.

 

Why was the other tower mentioned, repeatedly, if it serves no further role in the story?

 

Indeed, despite MA's consistent denials it seems like the most logical answer.

[MasterAblar]

Chekhov's Gun. Look it up.

 

Why was the other tower mentioned, repeatedly, if it serves no further role in the story?

 

Indeed, despite MA's consistent denials it seems like the most logical answer.

 

Elaida's arrogance is reason enough for the Tower to be mentioned, and it was not mentioned that often.

 

There is neither need nor desire, on either side, for the Ashaman to move to Tar Valon. What seems realistic to me is that it'll take some time for both groups to get over their rather negative opinions of each other.

 

Also, there's Aviendha's vision to consider. In that future, the Ashaman and Aes Sedai stayed seperate. Now, of course, that future is unlikely to come to pass, but nonetheless it shows that the joining of the two groups is hardly a done thing. And why should it happen in the real future if it did not happen in Aviendha's vision, which had nothing to do with the Towers, but rather the Aiel. Whatever is changed by Aviendha to ensure that her vision does not come to pass, is unlikely to affect the Towers and their immediate plans for the future (I say immediate because ultimately they both get destroyed by the Seanchan in Aviendha's future). So there is not necessarily any reason to expect the "real" future to vary from that of Aviendha's vision as far as the Black and White Towers are concerned.

[Owayn The Traveller]

If they did move to Tar Valon why wouldn't they just live in the tower with the others. It's half empty as it is.

[MasterAblar]

If they did move to Tar Valon why wouldn't they just live in the tower with the others. It's half empty as it is.

 

I'm sure the Aes Sedai will be very happy about that. And beyond their personal feelings, the WT is beginning to fill up. Novices are pouring in, and knowing Egwene she'll want that to continue.

[Owayn The Traveller]

If they did move to Tar Valon why wouldn't they just live in the tower with the others. It's half empty as it is.

 

I'm sure the Aes Sedai will be very happy about that. And beyond their personal feelings, the WT is beginning to fill up. Novices are pouring in, and knowing Egwene she'll want that to continue.

 

Im saying if they did move to Tar Valon. Others were saying they would live in Elaida's tower, which isnt even finished or close to it. Instead of building another Tower they could of moved in despite the increased number of novices. Nearly every description of the Tower is focused upon how empty it is.

 

I don't think they will move to Tar Valon, they have there own place. They only possible way I could see them even consider moving there, is if the black tower was rent in blood and destruction.