The White Tower - Seanchan Attack

[capuga]

@Ranjitb - This was discussed in the troop deployment thread (buried here somewhere) but I'll mention it now; The Seanchan Return likely had up to a million troops, possibly more. It was planned and organized over two hundred years. That's two hundred years of building boats and gathering supplies. The Seanchan have lost considerable casualties, but are still a formidable force.

 

I get your point and that is the explanation that we accept. But if you actually thing about that logically it still doesn't make much sense. How many soldiers can a ship hold? Even if they can hold 1000 (which seems like an awfully big ship to me) that is a 1000 ships of just soldiers. Think of how many ships would be needed for the civilians and all their strange beasts. How many ships to supply that many people for a very long sea voyage, not to mention having any excess supplies at the end of the trip? Have we really seen that many ships? Would all the ports in Randland be able to fit that many ships? I still think if you spend too much time thinking about the logistics instead of the story you'll get frustrated.

[Grandis]

Erunion - I don't doubt your statistics but once again I ask you - even if the Seanchan number 2 million HOW ARE THEY FEEDING THEM given that there is no food left, anywhere.

The Seanchan-occupied territories do not have a problem with their food rotting.

[bysomy]

The blight takes up almost half of Randland. There could conceivably be a large population of trollocs, much more than the population of Aiel+ Westlands, given that it is bigger, Trollocs multiply faster, and there are large stretches of uninhabited territory in the westlands. Also, Seanchan has a whole CONTINENT of resourses and soldiers. The ships brought the soldiers/settlers/animals over and then most of them left. Also, why didn't the Seanchan go through the Morenal Ocean and conquer Shara first?

[Lacanos]

The blight takes up almost half of Randland. There could conceivably be a large population of trollocs, much more than the population of Aiel+ Westlands, given that it is bigger, Trollocs multiply faster, and there are large stretches of uninhabited territory in the westlands. Also, Seanchan has a whole CONTINENT of resourses and soldiers. The ships brought the soldiers/settlers/animals over and then most of them left. Also, why didn't the Seanchan go through the Morenal Ocean and conquer Shara first?

There probably are more trollocs than men.

Also, the Seanchan chose "Randland" because it was where Artur Hawkwing ruled, that was the point of the return. He never beat the aiel and although he sent an expedition to Shara, that is assumed to have perished (although I wonder whether it did...)

[RyanDuranGeiger]

The Pattern could want the Seanchan to conquer (Ta'veren effect, causing their food to spoil slower).

 

Abusing the three oaths, the Seanchan can pop into the middle of the Tower, wrapping all the guards in air (To avoid accidentally putting a Warders life in danger), start collaring/shielding the Aes Sedai/Accepted/Novices. Since neither is fatal, the Aes Sedai can't fight back with any amount of force.. Sure the Novices/Accepted could, but they would be no match for the Damane/Sul'dam (Novices/Accepted aren't considered to be sisters, so "Their life, or that of another sisters" won't allow the Aes Sedai to start).

I'm sure Elaida (Or any other Aes Sedai captive, for that matter) would be willing (ecstatically) to will 'em in with their oaths/weaknesses.. With Elaida to describe the hall right outside of the Amyrlin's chambers, they could easily capture their leader (And their main way to fight off the attack.. Besides maybe Nynaeve)

 

 

Edit: typo.

[randychoy]

If the final 3 books were originally envisioned to be one large tome by RJ, I can't believe there would be another battle of the White Tower at all. There seems to be this huge build up of all of nations, AS, Windfinders, Aiel, Kin, and remaining unturned Ashaman to band together to duke it out with the DO. It seems inescapable for the Seanchan to not be apart of that coalition. I like the idea of Mat coincidentally showing up when the Seanchan arrive, blow the horn, have all of the Seanchan in awe of Artur friggin Hawkwing (commanded by Mat PoR), and then join the fold without any bloodshed. Since the Seanchan are so fanatically superstitious about owls and random minutiae I can easily see them quickly joining forces with Rand and the AS once they see the forefather of their culture incarnate (he isn't of the blood, he IS the blood), who is leagues above their insanely revered empress may she live forever.

[babuada]

If the final 3 books were originally envisioned to be one large tome by RJ, I can't believe there would be another battle of the White Tower at all. There seems to be this huge build up of all of nations, AS, Windfinders, Aiel, Kin, and remaining unturned Ashaman to band together to duke it out with the DO. It seems inescapable for the Seanchan to not be apart of that coalition. I like the idea of Mat coincidentally showing up when the Seanchan arrive, blow the horn, have all of the Seanchan in awe of Artur friggin Hawkwing (commanded by Mat PoR), and then join the fold without any bloodshed. Since the Seanchan are so fanatically superstitious about owls and random minutiae I can easily see them quickly joining forces with Rand and the AS once they see the forefather of their culture incarnate (he isn't of the blood, he IS the blood), who is leagues above their insanely revered empress may she live forever.

Problem is Hawkwing will come at Mat's bidding but he won't follow him. They only follow DRAGON REBORN.

[babuada]

this is not the white tower of elaida anymore. I can just about picture Egwene at the top of WT in the voice of wesley snipes (blade 2) shouting ''you obviously do not know who you're ****ing with'' before sending tuon and her army back to the abyss

This isn't the Oath free Egg anymore I can imagine she being collared this time if she goes into the tower. Can't even feel sorry :( After all she dug her own grave (she took the oath so that she can play better power politics).

[babuada]

Erunion - I don't doubt your statistics but once again I ask you - even if the Seanchan number 2 million HOW ARE THEY FEEDING THEM given that there is no food left, anywhere.

The Seanchan-occupied territories do not have a problem with their food rotting.

Right. Because they are better at serving the needs of common people. Common people are happier under Seanchan rule

[Suttree]

Erunion - I don't doubt your statistics but once again I ask you - even if the Seanchan number 2 million HOW ARE THEY FEEDING THEM given that there is no food left, anywhere.

The Seanchan-occupied territories do not have a problem with their food rotting.

Right. Because they are better at serving the needs of common people. Common people are happier under Seanchan rule

 

How does that have anything to do with whether food would be spoiling or not?

 

Also could someone provide a source for the Seanchan territories not having a problem with food spoiling? Doesn't seem right to me for some reason. If it's correct I would like to check it out. Thanks!

[csarmi]

Abusing the three oaths, the Seanchan can pop into the middle of the Tower, wrapping all the guards in air (To avoid accidentally putting a Warders life in danger), start collaring/shielding the Aes Sedai/Accepted/Novices. Since neither is fatal, the Aes Sedai can't fight back with any amount of force.. Sure the Novices/Accepted could, but they would be no match for the Damane/Sul'dam (Novices/Accepted aren't considered to be sisters, so "Their life, or that of another sisters" won't allow the Aes Sedai to start).

 

I don't think that's true. What would stop the Aes Sedai from shielding all the Seanchan / releasing the a'dams? Does that count as using the power as a weapon? I don't think so.

 

Also, after the last Seanchan raid, I believe that any of the Aes Sedai would feel in more than danger if ANY Seanchan channelers showed up.

[csarmi]

How does that have anything to do with whether food would be spoiling or not?

 

Also could someone provide a source for the Seanchan territories not having a problem with food spoiling? Doesn't seem right to me for some reason. If it's correct I would like to check it out. Thanks!

 

The point (and the key) is one word: ORDER. (Order and belief gives strength)

[Taura-Tierno]

The Pattern could want the Seanchan to conquer (Ta'veren effect, causing their food to spoil slower).

 

Abusing the three oaths, the Seanchan can pop into the middle of the Tower, wrapping all the guards in air (To avoid accidentally putting a Warders life in danger), start collaring/shielding the Aes Sedai/Accepted/Novices. Since neither is fatal, the Aes Sedai can't fight back with any amount of force.. Sure the Novices/Accepted could, but they would be no match for the Damane/Sul'dam (Novices/Accepted aren't considered to be sisters, so "Their life, or that of another sisters" won't allow the Aes Sedai to start).

I'm sure Elaida (Or any other Aes Sedai captive, for that matter) would be willing (ecstatically) to will 'em in with their oaths/weaknesses.. With Elaida to describe the hall right outside of the Amyrlin's chambers, they could easily capture their leader (And their main way to fight off the attack.. Besides maybe Nynaeve)

 

 

Edit: typo.

 

I don't think it works like that. The Seachan would have to convince the Aes Sedai that their lives are not in danger, and I for one wouldn't believe them. By the same reason, a rapist could capture an Aes Sedai and say "I will rape you but I promise not to kill you", and then the Aes Sedai would be unable to defend herself. I think the Aes Sedai would still consider her life to be in danger. It would depend on each sisters definition of being in a life-threatening situation, but the Seanchan attacking again ... well. Last time they killed people. Why wouldn't they again?

 

They cannot say anything that convinces the Aes Sedai that their lives are not in danger. In a way, being captured by the Seanchan is the end of your life. You're not you any more. You're damane.

 

There is also the question of the warders; why on earth would the Seanchan keep them alive afterwards? There is no way an Aes Sedai would believe that they would keep the Warders alive after "tricking" the Aes Sedai into not feeling threatened. Thus, they'd be protecting the warders. And, since some Aes Sedai would fight back, the Seanchan would have to use force, which might result in some Aes Sedai dying, no matter how accidental. And that would, in turn, put every Aes Sedai' life in jeopardy. Thus, they would be able to fight back. I can't imagine seeing Egwene being prvented from killing the Seachan by the Oaths. I definitely think she'd consider being collared the end of her life.

[ajfurst]

Just on the Oaths and the Seanchan post LB. Would the world really think so much less of Aes Sedai (they are hardly trusted now), if the Oath was changed to include along with the life of the AS, warder or other AS to add ' or in last defense of my freedom.'. Oppressing the common man/woman with the power could not be considered in the last defense of an Aes Sedai's freedom, but it would allow them to then fight the Seanchan. If the Aes Sedai are going to stick with the idiocy of the three oaths post LB, then unless the Seanchan give up the a'dam, they'd be crazy to leave them exactly as they are.

[wvlr2]

We all know that they A'dam can not make captured AS do anything against the Three Oaths. So tell me - how far can that be taken?

 

If an AS Stated - Before she was captured: "I will not be held by the A'dam and it has no power over me. The A'dam will not give me pain and I will nbot be commanded by it to harm another AS or the WT." could that block the function of the A'dam?

 

Or would it take an actual Oath on the OR stating the same to fully defeat the A'dam?

 

What do you think?

[Durinax]

We all know that they A'dam can not make captured AS do anything against the Three Oaths. So tell me - how far can that be taken?

 

If an AS Stated - Before she was captured: "I will not be held by the A'dam and it has no power over me. The A'dam will not give me pain and I will nbot be commanded by it to harm another AS or the WT." could that block the function of the A'dam?

 

Or would it take an actual Oath on the OR stating the same to fully defeat the A'dam?

 

What do you think?

I dont think that would work at all it would almost be like saying 'I will not require air to breathe for the rest of my life' it just wont work since it goes against the nature of the object, and since it is out of tar the oath would have significantly less power.

 

I wonder if a collar would prevent people from entering tar, cause a few AS who can on command enter tar could spy and report army movements, plans, etc. especailly if they are under a der'sul'dam or whatever the highest ranking ones are

[David Selig]

The Aes Sedai should've changed the Third Oath to "Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends, Shadowspawn or channellers or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister.". Since they're no longer the only strong organisation of channellers around, it makes no sense to voluntary put themselves at such a disadvantage, especially since they know that one of the other groups (sul'dams and damane) are trying to enslave them and aren't restricted in their usage of the One Power.

 

They should've thought about this when everyone reswore the Oaths in TGS as part of the BA purge, the memories of the Seanchan attack, in which most Aes Sedai were helpless but the Novices and the only Aes Sedai not bound by the Oaths pushed the Seanchan back almost by themselves, were still fresh. It would've been the perfect time to introduce this change. But I guess it's too much to ask the Aes Sedai to show some common sense, even when it's in their best interests.

 

If the Oath is changed this way, it still helps with the ordinary people trusting them not to use the Power against them. Not that this seemed to work much anyway, since despite it the vast majority of Randlanders still don't trust the Aes Sedai at all.

[Taura-Tierno]

I still don't see why they'd have to change it; fighting the Seanchan still meant they were fighting for their lives, so they were free to use it as a weapon. The reason it went so badly was because they were out of practice. Adelorna commented on it; she felt ashamed that the Green Ajah was so lousy at fighting the the OP compared to the damane.

 

The Aes Sedai doesn't have to be staring down a fireball to consider her life to be in danger. Remember those Aes Sedai travelling with Mat? They could use the One Power as a weapon when the enemy was close enough that they felt threatened. I would assume they felt that, being in the heat of the battle, they could use the Power as a weapon against any enemy, not necessarily one who was trying to run them through with a sword, since any enemy might kill them at any time. Kind of, "them or me". So being in the middle of a fight the Seanchan would definitely count as being threatened.

[AquilaInfernus]

A couple of things, the Seanchan are preparing a full assault of the White Tower, therefore Warders and the like are definitely in considerable danger. Secondly, the Aes Sedai were able to manage a defence of their own (though they were pretty bad at it, due to woeful planning) and initiates died in the raid. I agree with Taura-Tierno that you would have to convince them that they weren't in danger to invoke the oaths.

 

It's still going to be disastrous for both sides (unless the White Tower are all out on the Field of Merrilor), but I also doubt that Egwene has kept the way of opening the a'dam secret. Did she not teach circles in the midst of the battle then send them off to fight/flee? (I don't have TGS with me) Pretty sure her organised defence then included teaching how to unlock the a'dam...

[blazetheearth]

A couple of things, the Seanchan are preparing a full assault of the White Tower, therefore Warders and the like are definitely in considerable danger. Secondly, the Aes Sedai were able to manage a defence of their own (though they were pretty bad at it, due to woeful planning) and initiates died in the raid. I agree with Taura-Tierno that you would have to convince them that they weren't in danger to invoke the oaths.

 

It's still going to be disastrous for both sides (unless the White Tower are all out on the Field of Merrilor), but I also doubt that Egwene has kept the way of opening the a'dam secret. Did she not teach circles in the midst of the battle then send them off to fight/flee? (I don't have TGS with me) Pretty sure her organised defence then included teaching how to unlock the a'dam...

 

The only reference to her showing anyone the trick is when she shows Adelorna right after Eggy frees her. There is absolutely no further mention of the trick being distributed among the WT. Not even a reference to the Captain-General distributing the knowledge among the Greens, much less the whole Tower. The only person that we see using a "flick of the power" to open an a'dam, in the entire series IIRC, before Eggy in the WT is when Nyn does it in Falme. To me, this weave is similar to that of ceundilllar in CoT. It was mentioned once early in CoT, but at the same time the 'once' that it is mentioned shows several of the AS and Accepted and Novices all doing it. It would be really disappointing if the WT whipped out all AS knowing the trick without even a line during morning reports between Silviana and Egwene concerning how the learning of the trick is going. That would just be poor writing. I mean since ONE LINE could take care of all of the argument over whether it has been taught, why wouldn't that one line be there if it was being passed around?

Word count shouldn't have been an issue, but if it was then a couple of lines could have been taken away from the whole Elayne-takes-the-Sun-Throne scenes.

 

For that matter, Eggy has to know how many Windfinders were caught in EB, so why under the Light didn't she take a couple of lines to quickly teach even one of the WF and WO during their meeting in TAR if she is spreading the trick through out the WT. That is really just saying, "I want you to help me so that we can all be stronger, but I'm not going to give you a trick that would help you keep your people out of Seanchan collars." I would rather think of her as bumbling stupid for not holding classes among the WT, than have her protect only the WT while keeping it from the other groups.

[csarmi]

There is absolutely no mention of the Salidar Aes Sedai preparing their defense vs the forsaken (not in details, at least) yet they had a working plan set up as soon as a Bubble of Evil struck them.

 

Aes Sedai are NOT stupid and the Hall is actually competent most of the time. Do not underestimate them.

 

It would be entirely implausible for the Aes Sedai caught unprepared (for Tarmon Gaidon and for Seanchan attack). Can it happen that way? I'm afraid so, but that would be a HUGE mistake onthe author's part.

[Taura-Tierno]

It wouldn't be odd if it hadn't been mentioned. I mean, they've probably planned A LOT for future encounters with the Seanchan. And if not planned, at least discussed. It's such a minor thing that I don't care either way, if it's mentioned being distributed or not. I do, however, recall Egwene telling Adelorna that most of the time, it isn't worth it. Am I correct? That it's easier to shield or kill? It might be that most Aes Sedai aren't deft enough in their weavings to do it. Some might be. But I bet a lot of Aes Sedai know it by now.

 

If the author would show every piece of planning and distributing of information that takes place, the series would truly be neverending. I see no reason why it would be mentioned; there are way more important things to fit in the books.

 

And there are others things that have been passed around that isn't really mentioned until ... well, until it's shown.

[David Selig]

There is absolutely no mention of the Salidar Aes Sedai preparing their defense vs the forsaken (not in details, at least) yet they had a working plan set up as soon as a Bubble of Evil struck them.

But this is different. None of the PoV characters were among the Salidar leadership back then.

 

Plus it was hardly a good plan. Nynaeve noted later that only a few of the Aes Sedai knew about it beforehand and most of the circles consisted mostly of novices and Accepted in them, not Aes Sedai.

 

Aes Sedai are NOT stupid and the Hall is actually competent most of the time. Do not underestimate them.

Given that they were totally unprepared for an attack the previous time, despite knowing that there's an army with a Travelling at their disposal besieging them, doesn't speak well for them at all. You could say they didn't expect the Tower split to turn into open combat between sisters, and I agree, but they should've been prepared for that possibility. Instead when an enemy appeared at the Tower, they were caught completely disorganized and unprepared.

 

Hopefully this has taught them a lesson, since as much as most of them annoy me, I'd hate to see the Aes Sedai turn into Seanchan pets. But nothing in the Egwene's chapters in ToM indicated that they are preparing seriously for a defense.

[blazetheearth]

There is absolutely no mention of the Salidar Aes Sedai preparing their defense vs the forsaken (not in details, at least) yet they had a working plan set up as soon as a Bubble of Evil struck them.

 

Aes Sedai are NOT stupid and the Hall is actually competent most of the time. Do not underestimate them.

 

It would be entirely implausible for the Aes Sedai caught unprepared (for Tarmon Gaidon and for Seanchan attack). Can it happen that way? I'm afraid so, but that would be a HUGE mistake onthe author's part.

 

When we see the SAS face the bubble of evil, it is from 2 Accepted's PoV, They had not been told about the plan because the Hall was specifically trying to keep those plans underwraps so that the Forsaken could not learn of the plans. How is that situation similar to this? Here we have the Amrylin's PoV and we have seen her recieve reports from her Keepers about things going on with the AS that are not disseminated to Novices or Accepted. The circumstances are completely different. In the BoE scene, neither Elayne nor Nynaeve were a part of making the Many Large Circles plan, here Egwene had better be part of any planned defense, but her PoV does not show us any planned defense. If it is in place then it should have been referred to in her thoughts even if no verbal mention was made of it. Had Eggy already been Amrylin during the BoE scene, then I would have called it bad writing to introduce that planned response w/o giving us the reader some hint of it from her PoV.

And it is in no way implausible, because the AS, while intelligent, are completely self-centered. I mean look at the scene with the Hall in ToM. Rand has already stopped there and told everyone that he will break the seals in 30 days, then within a couple of days after that what do we see from the Hall of the Tower? More of the same politicing and in-fighting that caused the break in the first place. This is your example of "competent"? The Hall (and by extension 99% of all AS) has only been competent in managing its own affairs and sticking its nose into other people's business (both of which we have seen plenty), but as far as competence concerning the world outside the WT.... I have seen very little, and most of that is from AS that are considered to be non-traditional (ie: Moraine, Cads, Nyn, Pevara, etc). I don't think that they are stupid, just very short-sighted, self-centered, and extremely arrogant about their place among other Randlanders (the only reason for having that place is the ability to channel).

Channeling does NOT make them smarter or wiser, and it should not give them special privileges in the Randland society. The Wise Ones are a perfect example of how the WT could have been if the AS had not been so wrapped up in the thinking that "I can channel, so I'm better than anyone who can't, and the more I can channel then the better I am than anyone else that can channel less." It is mind set and attitude that handicap the AS, not lack of intelligence.

[Elan Tedronai]

elaida's foretelling by itself has assured the futility of this seanchan attack.