Discuss The Forsaken

[Graendals favourite]

Oh well, was wrong on Mesaana, right on Graendal and Asmodean, Be'Taim not known as yet.

[didymos]

6 billion is pushing it. There are 6.7 billion people in all of the world right now. China has 1.3 billion people in it. I don't think we have a real clear idea of the size of Randland, but I figure population wise at the time of the breaking it would probably be between China at the very high end, and England at the very low end. I get the impression that the size of Randland is about the size of the England, which currently has a population of 50 million. There's no way in the world that there's 6 billion people in Randland at the time of the Breaking.

 

You do realize that the geography in the AoL was completely different, right? Also, we know for a fact that they had really kick-ass food production, even up to the beginning of the Breaking (i.e. Seed Singing, and almost certainly a number of other nifty farming tricks), and essentially the greatest public health system imaginable. 6 billion may very well be too low a figure for the global population of the pre-Bore AoL. Possibly too low by a few billion.

[smileyman]

6 billion is pushing it. There are 6.7 billion people in all of the world right now. China has 1.3 billion people in it. I don't think we have a real clear idea of the size of Randland, but I figure population wise at the time of the breaking it would probably be between China at the very high end, and England at the very low end. I get the impression that the size of Randland is about the size of the England, which currently has a population of 50 million. There's no way in the world that there's 6 billion people in Randland at the time of the Breaking.

 

You do realize that the geography in the AoL was completely different, right? Also, we know for a fact that they had really kick-ass food production, even up to the beginning of the Breaking (i.e. Seed Singing, and almost certainly a number of other nifty farming tricks), and essentially the greatest public health system imaginable. 6 billion may very well be too low a figure for the global population of the pre-Bore AoL. Possibly too low by a few billion.

 

You do realize we're not discussing the population of the entire world don't you? Merely the population of what we call Randland.

 

6 billion for the whole world is completely logical and possible. 6 billion for one continent is simply impossible--if nothing else due to space limitations. Given the few glimpses of AOL cities that we've seen, it doesn't seem like there's a big issue with overcrowding--not if an Aiel can come from the fields where they're helping the food grow to the city center in one day, so I think my guesses of population of Randland are entirely reasonable.

 

If I were to narrow them down I'd probably guesstimate around the population of the US, so 300 million or so, which is entirely reasonable for one continent.

[didymos]

You do realize we're not discussing the population of the entire world don't you? Merely the population of what we call Randland.

 

Um, you might be, but that ain't what the person you were responding to actually meant:

 

EDIT:

I am not sure how many people were in the world after the breaking, but I am assuming that there were quite a few, there is a lot of landmass in The WOT, and i am assuming that along with other parallels to our age that there were close to 6 billion people before the war of power broke out. Even if a lot of them died I get the feeling a lot were left in all the different places, as nations and armies sprung up pretty quick, and all the institutions that were created etc. If population were to in some way resemble our own and assuming there were between 14-27 million people left in the world (minority in Randland) then theoretically their world population should be between 170 and 265 million after 3000 years of growth (figures are based on estimated population growth from 3000 BC - 0 AD and 2000 BC - 1000 AD)

This really should have a new thread, I'm sure somebody out there has thought a lot harder about this than I have, and will actually have better reasons than 'I get the feeling...'

 

I don't know why you decided that figure applied to only Randland, but it obviously didn't.

[nleseul]

EDIT:

I am not sure how many people were in the world after the breaking, but I am assuming that there were quite a few, there is a lot of landmass in The WOT, and i am assuming that along with other parallels to our age that there were close to 6 billion people before the war of power broke out. Even if a lot of them died I get the feeling a lot were left in all the different places, as nations and armies sprung up pretty quick, and all the institutions that were created etc. If population were to in some way resemble our own and assuming there were between 14-27 million people left in the world (minority in Randland) then theoretically their world population should be between 170 and 265 million after 3000 years of growth (figures are based on estimated population growth from 3000 BC - 0 AD and 2000 BC - 1000 AD)

This really should have a new thread, I'm sure somebody out there has thought a lot harder about this than I have, and will actually have better reasons than 'I get the feeling...'

 

Been looking through the Guide/White Book for this quote all night. I knew I remembered this to be the case, but wasn't totally sure what the source was.

 

In the Age of Legends, the world was thickly populated, with no lands unclaimed. The disastrous upheavals of the Breaking decimated the population, but a gradual recovery meant that by the end of the reign of Artur Hawkwing, all the land between the Aiel Waste and the Aryth Ocean harbored some level of civilization. After Hawkwing's death, however, the population began a gradual decrease that the chaos of the War of the Hundred Years alone does not account for. Toward the end of the war rulers were claiming lands they lacked the manpower to hold. This decline has continued until the present, and there are now vast tracts of unpopulated land unclaimed by any nation, as well as areas that, though claimed in theory, are in practice autonomous and beyond the scope of their "official" ruler to defend or control. Towns and even some cities lie abandoned and in ruin.

 

No one is certain why the population has declined, though some theorize that it has been caused by the Dark One's touch through the gradually weakening seals. Others believe it is simply a by-product of the world's forced return to more primitive ways as knowledge and the tools of civilization have been lost. Whatever reason, all nations are affected by it, from the vast too-empty halls of the powerful White Tower, to the little village of Emond's Field in Andor, which has forgotten it ever belonged to a Queen or was part of a larger nation.

 

This is why it's possible for places like the Two Rivers to be completely unclaimed by any major power, and for there to be huge areas like the Caralain Grass that are completely empty. There just aren't enough people to keep all that land populated. So you really can't make population estimates for Randland based on real-world population dynamics.

 

For what it's worth, the world map on p.146 of the Guide has a distance scale on it, and it's roughly 3000 miles from the Aryth Ocean to the Spine, and about 2000 miles from the Blight to the Sea of Storms. (A Randland mile is 1000 spans, and a span is two paces. Assuming that a pace is about 5 feet, as it apparently was in real-world ancient Rome, I think that works out to about 5700 by 3800 miles in real-world units.) The Aiel Waste is slightly smaller than that; Shara and the Land of Madmen are both a bit bigger, and Seanchan is ginormous.

[remylevin]

whoops, that 1,000,000 is right but I meant 700,000

 

OK. That makes more sense

 

I think that the armies are pretty realistic except for Arad Doman having around 250,000 soldiers, Andor seemed to have about 100,000 at the height of their civil war, I am assuming it was the same with Tear and the others. The seanchan force opposing them was made of tens of thousands of seanchan and support from several different countries, so I guess I understand that. It has been mentioned Caemlyn and Bandar Eban have about 1,000,000 people each. I am not sure but I think we can assume that back then about 50% of people lived in rural communities, I am not sure as I haven't been able to find a real life population spread example, but I think that is being conservative, and more would have lived in the country. With a bit of geustimation I guess about each capital of every country has about the same amount of people, so each country has about 2-3 million people in it. Some would have less than this, like Amadicia, but there are all those randoms that don't live in a country, like in Far madding or Tar Volon. This would have to exclude Maya.

 

I think these army sizes are unrealistic for the type of culture we're looking at. Randland is based on various Medieval and Renaissance cultures.

 

In 1500 London had a population of 50,000. The population of the whole of England was about 2.5 to 3 million. An army of 100,000 would be 5% of the total population which is actually a huge portion of the population to put an army on the field, especially then. (I'm using England as the example here because I always felt that Andor was a close analog).

 

Go back 300 years to 1200 and the population of London was somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 with the whole of England being about 1.5 million. I don't get the impression that Andor is anywhere near a 13th century England in technology, which would indicate a corresponding drop in food production, leading to a lower population density and overall population.

 

 

EDIT:

I am not sure how many people were in the world after the breaking, but I am assuming that there were quite a few, there is a lot of landmass in The WOT, and i am assuming that along with other parallels to our age that there were close to 6 billion people before the war of power broke out. Even if a lot of them died I get the feeling a lot were left in all the different places, as nations and armies sprung up pretty quick, and all the institutions that were created etc. If population were to in some way resemble our own and assuming there were between 14-27 million people left in the world (minority in Randland) then theoretically their world population should be between 170 and 265 million after 3000 years of growth (figures are based on estimated population growth from 3000 BC - 0 AD and 2000 BC - 1000 AD)

 

6 billion is pushing it. There are 6.7 billion people in all of the world right now. China has 1.3 billion people in it. I don't think we have a real clear idea of the size of Randland, but I figure population wise at the time of the breaking it would probably be between China at the very high end, and England at the very low end. I get the impression that the size of Randland is about the size of the England, which currently has a population of 50 million. There's no way in the world that there's 6 billion people in Randland at the time of the Breaking.

 

This really should have a new thread, I'm sure somebody out there has thought a lot harder about this than I have, and will actually have better reasons than 'I get the feeling...'

 

I requested one last night.

 

RJ has stated that Randland society was comparable technologically to 17th century Europe without gunpowder. Population estimates for England around 1650 converge at about 5.6 million. Andor alone is significantly bigger than England, a fact we can deduce from the size of Randland as a whole (roughly the size of North America, probably). 100,000 soldiers would amount to roughly %1.8 of the population (if we're still going with the England analogy), not an unreasonable figure at all for a highly militarized feudal society.

 

The WoT world as a whole probably has in the hundreds of millions of people. Our world's population is estimated to be around 500 million in 1650, which strikes me as being about right for a world the size of the Wot world (especially one with such a large, stable empire like the Seanchan, analogous to imperial China). Considering that, the military figures are not unreasonable at all. furthermore, consider the fact that many of the people in the armies are newly-conscripted peasants. World military capacity can swell dramatically if a large number of short-term conscripts is included.

[remylevin]

 

Freeing the DO would destroy the Pattern and existence. The DO hasn't shared that little secret with them, so the way to free him, by destroying everything, isn't known to them, and if they did know, they'd switch sides in a heartbeat. They're all being manipulated, aside from Moridin.

 

So either the Light is defeated in a long and bloody drawn out war in which all resistance is destroyed and the DO can continue to slowly unravel the Pattern until he destroys it all (Plan B) and risk the Forsaken realizing what is happening and then working agains thim as well, or he can manipulate the Dragon into despair and madness and make him do the dirty work for him without the hassle of a long drawn out war (Plan A). Only Moridin is in on Plan A. And all the other Forsaken don't understand everything about Plan B. They think the DO is a conqueror who wants to rule the world, not destroy it.

 

How does any of that change how the Forsaken, if they actually thought, even a tiny bit, should behave?

 

No, they don't understand that a fully free DO means that all existence ends, but so what? What they do understand is that if they want their cookie, the DO needs to be free.

DO -> Free = Job One.

 

Is what they're doing, what they've done doing anything to accomplish their primary task, their Job One?

 

No. All they've done is create a stronger, more cohesive, more experienced opposing force. All they've done is indulge their petty passions and insure their own defeat.

 

That's the epitome of dumb. Also witless. Useless. Pitiful. Pathetic. Self-destructive. Brain dead.....

 

Elan Morin Tedronai's analysis that the Dark One MUST eventually win is based on one fundamentally wrong assumption - that those who choose to be its proxies will actually work to make that happen. Apparently "the Forsaken" are incapable of doing that. Even Moridin.

 

Only in the world of fantasy fiction would waltzing in and taking over an entire nation, then directing its military resources against your enemy be considered "useless." Especially considering that, had you not done that, those forces would have joined your enemy. You know what else is not useless? Almost causing your opponent to commit suicide and destroy the world.

 

I must be mistaken, though, because apparently, not winning=bad villain.

 

Here's the main point: LOTS OF REALLY BAD STUFF HAS HAPPENED TO THE LIGHT-SIDE CAUSE. THE FORSAKEN WERE BEHIND ALL OF IT. If you can't remember what happened, refer to the list I posted. It's partial, but it should be pretty convincing.

[Zentari]

Elan Morin Tedronai's analysis that the Dark One MUST eventually win is based on one fundamentally wrong assumption - that those who choose to be its proxies will actually work to make that happen. Apparently "the Forsaken" are incapable of doing that. Even Moridin.

Um,no.It is not based or that assumption , it is based on the assumption that if you have infinite times to attempt something , you WILL get it right eventually.

[Duskfire]

I think these army sizes are unrealistic for the type of culture we're looking at. Randland is based on various Medieval and Renaissance cultures.

 

In 1500 London had a population of 50,000. The population of the whole of England was about 2.5 to 3 million. An army of 100,000 would be 5% of the total population which is actually a huge portion of the population to put an army on the field, especially then. (I'm using England as the example here because I always felt that Andor was a close analog).

 

Go back 300 years to 1200 and the population of London was somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 with the whole of England being about 1.5 million. I don't get the impression that Andor is anywhere near a 13th century England in technology, which would indicate a corresponding drop in food production, leading to a lower population density and overall population.

 

The population is based on around the 17th century.

 

According to RJ Andor has a population of about 10 million. Keep in mind as well at this period of time we have farmers going to war, due to the whole Final Battle coming. People who wouldnt ordinarily even think about joining an army are doing so. So therefore the percentage of soldiers would probably be alot higher then in normal everyday life. The end of the world is coming, and people everywhere are filling the pull of either ta`veren or just general responsibility.

[Sharaman]

A highly militarised society like Fred the Great's Prussia could put a standing army of 300K up with a population of about 3 million.

I'd say 5-10% would be reaosnable given the circumstances. The Aiel can probably raise larger numbers.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Elan Morin Tedronai's analysis that the Dark One MUST eventually win is based on one fundamentally wrong assumption - that those who choose to be its proxies will actually work to make that happen. Apparently "the Forsaken" are incapable of doing that. Even Moridin.

Um,no.It is not based or that assumption , it is based on the assumption that if you have infinite times to attempt something , you WILL get it right eventually.

 

Just what is it that the Forsaken are attempting? It certainly isn't breaking the DO free. They don't care diddly about what happens to the DO. They just want all the toys.

 

That's why they'll never succeed. Success requires working for something beyond themselves and they're too individually selfish and shortsighted to do that. They simply lack the necessary mindset and character. Which is why Moridin's analysis is wrong. The DO simply does not attract the proper followers to ever win.

[decrepid dragon]

I think these army sizes are unrealistic for the type of culture we're looking at. Randland is based on various Medieval and Renaissance cultures.

 

In 1500 London had a population of 50,000. The population of the whole of England was about 2.5 to 3 million. An army of 100,000 would be 5% of the total population which is actually a huge portion of the population to put an army on the field, especially then. (I'm using England as the example here because I always felt that Andor was a close analog).

 

Go back 300 years to 1200 and the population of London was somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 with the whole of England being about 1.5 million. I don't get the impression that Andor is anywhere near a 13th century England in technology, which would indicate a corresponding drop in food production, leading to a lower population density and overall population.

 

The population is based on around the 17th century.

 

According to RJ Andor has a population of about 10 million. Keep in mind as well at this period of time we have farmers going to war, due to the whole Final Battle coming. People who wouldnt ordinarily even think about joining an army are doing so. So therefore the percentage of soldiers would probably be alot higher then in normal everyday life. The end of the world is coming, and people everywhere are filling the pull of either ta`veren or just general responsibility.

 

I thought that I was severely underestimating the population of the countries, I didn't want to put mopre people in Randland than there should be, but that makes Arad Domans large army pretty realistic, although from the sounds of it Randland hasn't had anything larger than battles with 30 thousand men for years, excluding Aeil war, as several people have been amazed that even 10,000 men seems like a small army when it used to be consequential. Andor wouldn't have drafted too hard for the civil war on average then (obviously some places would have drafter a lot harder than others). In medieval times when the national army did go off to fight another country they left a lot of soldiers behind, various lords men to gaurd castles and keep the peace etc. So when These countries start sending massive armies out it is because they have pulled every properly trained reserve soldier.

 

I think the Aeil people could probably put about 60-75% of their appropriate age population on the field, so excluding those below 18 and above 40 or 50, as almost all men are warriors, with a few blacksmiths, and a lot of the women seem to be maidens of the spear. That would translate to about 40 or 50% of their population? Anyone got proper numbers?

[Tom Sawyer]

Elan Morin Tedronai's analysis that the Dark One MUST eventually win is based on one fundamentally wrong assumption - that those who choose to be its proxies will actually work to make that happen. Apparently "the Forsaken" are incapable of doing that. Even Moridin.

Um,no.It is not based or that assumption , it is based on the assumption that if you have infinite times to attempt something , you WILL get it right eventually.

 

Just what is it that the Forsaken are attempting? It certainly isn't breaking the DO free. They don't care diddly about what happens to the DO. They just want all the toys.

 

That's why they'll never succeed. Success requires working for something beyond themselves and they're too individually selfish and shortsighted to do that. They simply lack the necessary mindset and character. Which is why Moridin's analysis is wrong. The DO simply does not attract the proper followers to ever win.

 

I think that Moridin's point was that no matter what the odds are, as long as they are non-zero, an infinite number of attempts will eventually result in success. If he has competent followers who give him a 1% chance of winning or incompetent followers who give him a 0.00000000000001% chance of winning, there's no appreciable difference. Needing a hundred attempt in order to break free isn't a significant improvement over needing a hundred trillion attempts in order to break free because the time it takes isn't a factor that really matters to a being who exists outside of time.

[Sharaman]

You can sort of work out Aiel forces from the Carhein battles - in TFoH Mat's chat with Lan before Carhein describes dispositions of various clans.

Note that they had all (except the Shaido) left spears behind to protect their holds in the Waste at that stage.

 

The other issue for an agrarian economy is that if you draft all the guys, you end up starving next year. That more or less happened to Europe late in WWI.

The Aiel are not in that sense agrarian. So maybe it's easier for them, like it was for Zulu and Apache.

OTOH the population of the Waste is much lower than Randland proper even though it's pretty much the same size.

So Randland proper can probably match the Aiel for size by putting much lower %ages in uniform.

 

Historically the Prussians could keep around 10% of population as a standing army - that included draftees between 16-20 and a largeish professional force.

That would be about the best you could probably assume for non-Borderlanders.

The Borderlanders may be able to push the ratio higher because for them, it's a choice between being starved next year or eaten this month

[Braden]

Not sure if this has been discussed but...

 

Anyone think Lanfear might have a big part in the final book. I found it interesting what Moiraine mentioned after she was saved.

 

"I passed through the ter'angreal"

"The ancient treaty held for both of us..."

 

I imagine this is linked to the prophecy of giving up have of the worlds light to save the world.

 

Also I always thought Demandred was in the Black Tower but it seems his army is likely these new type of Aiel.

 

Thoughts?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not sure if this has been discussed but...

 

Anyone think Lanfear might have a big part in the final book. I found it interesting what Moiraine mentioned after she was saved.

 

"I passed through the ter'angreal"

"The ancient treaty held for both of us..."

 

I imagine this is linked to the prophecy of giving up have of the worlds light to save the world.

 

Also I always thought Demandred was in the Black Tower but it seems his army is likely these new type of Aiel.

 

Thoughts?

 

Lanfear will have a part for sure. How big? Of what kind?

 

Seems to depend on how Arthurian you think things will turn out. And which version of the Arthurian tale you favor.

 

Nicola Foresaw "Three on a boat" with "he who is dead, yet lives." Malory's version has four, one of whom is Morgana LeFay, who would seem to be most like Lanfear.

 

A RAFO for sure.

[Braden]

I have always been intrigued since we heard of moraines survival.

 

One could assume lanfears wishes involved revenge or some how getting less therins love.

 

Still looking forward to the chapters where Rand sees moiraine and also elayne pregnant.

[Kahlika]

I imagine this is linked to the prophecy of giving up have of the worlds light to save the world.

 

Also I always thought Demandred was in the Black Tower but it seems his army is likely these new type of Aiel.

 

Thoughts?

 

Giving up half the light of the world to save the world was Mat losing an eye to save Moiraine. I tend to think of it as linked to Mins viewing that Rand "will almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone" - said when Moiraine was thought to be dead. So Mat gave up half the light of the world (an eye) to save the world (bring Moiraine back to assist Rand). I suspect that Moiraine will end up being the one other Rand links with to use Callandor.

 

I don't know that they're Aiel, but I hope Demandred has something to do with them. It's about time we saw him do something.

[TheAngryDruid]

Not sure if this has been discussed but...

 

Anyone think Lanfear might have a big part in the final book. I found it interesting what Moiraine mentioned after she was saved.

 

"I passed through the ter'angreal"

"The ancient treaty held for both of us..."

 

I imagine this is linked to the prophecy of giving up have of the worlds light to save the world.

 

Also I always thought Demandred was in the Black Tower but it seems his army is likely these new type of Aiel.

 

Thoughts?

 

Yes, Mo and Lanfear's 3 wishes (well, 2 for Moiraine since 1 was on the angreal) are interesting.

 

For the record, I think Lanfear will play a big role in the final book, and that was before Rand's dream of her. Of course, it is well known I'm a bit crazy on the Forsaken issue (Taim = Moridin).

 

I see at least several things that point to it.

 

First, as mentioned, Rand's dream/vision, and his reaction to it.

 

Second, since the Rand/Moridin meeting in T'A'R I've been convinced that the fact of the DO's nihilistic goal, and the fact that only Moridin seems to get it, could be a factor in a Chosen switching sides. After all, they want to live forever, if the DO's victory is imminent, then so is their demise. No more sensation/living for Granedal. No more research for Mesaana. Etc. We know the Chosen don't want to unravel the Pattern (they stopped using balefire before, and Demandred is extremely hesitant when the DO asks if he'll unleash balefire in his service). Asmodean was true after he was cut off, if not reformed. He saved Rand's life, and held on to that tuft of grass as long as he could. Might the others feel the same if they know the end is near, and a mortal lifespan would be more than the DO now can offer?

 

Third, the whole "no one can walk in the Shadow so long they can't come back to the Light" bit. It's been used a bit too often not to be true, IMHO, and dovetails nicely with the point above. I don't count Verin (she was never dark to begin with). Ingtar & Tomas, I guess. But they didn't live the redemption (well, maybe Tomas did). Still, I think it could happen again. There is some additional support for Lanfear on this score. We know that Lanfear wasn't always evil (Rand's trip to Rhuidean). She alone of the Chosen has openly talked of challenging the DO (and the Creator).

 

Fourth, the Morgan Le Fey parallels. Lanfear has serious Morganna/Morgan Le Fay parallels. In some Arthurian legends, she is the beautiful sorcerous and is the antagonist to Arthur (sound familiar). In some versions, she is Arthur's half-sister, in others (like in Ecalibur) she is also is the mother to Arthur's son Mordred, who kills Arthur. In others, it is one of her two older sisters (Morgause, not Elaine) who mother Mordred (and Gawain). In still others she is an enchantress/healer who reconciles with Arthur and is one of the four ladies who carry his body to Avalon after the battle on Camnlann. Her early paralles are Welsh and she was at first supernatural, but she later is mortal, though her magical powers are retained. In some Arthurian tales, she is a foil to both Arthur (whom she resents because Uther married her off and hunted other users of magic) and Guinevere (Egwene al'Vere) and was a pupil of Merlin's. In these earlier works, she is the prototypical seductress and mistress of the night (in some works seducing Arthur and giving birth to Mordred, though his mother is usually Morgause).

 

Later, in things like the Mists of Avalon, feminists portray her more sympathetically in the Celtic (or even Welsh?) tradition of feminine power and a healer/spiritual figure. As do many of the French romances which refer to her as a benevolent figure.

 

In fact, if one plots Morgan's treatment in literature chronologically, it starts out good, goes very bad, and then returns to a favorable portrayal at the end. A little strained, perhaps, but interesting.

 

Fourth, the name of the book itself. "A Memory of Light." Now, I thought this referred to some memory of LTT's that Rand would uncover and use, and it still may. But couldn't it also refer to a memory of light from one who has turned to the Shadow? In Writings (ToM 5) Graendal remembers how she felt when she took her first steps to the Shadow, and gets Moridin to do the same. I wonder if these are forshadowings of more "memories of light" to come?

 

Last, I think you may have a point about the "one who is dead, yet lives." Now, I always thought this was Moiraine, and it may well be. But Moiraine never died, Lanfear did. And she has all that Bore knowledge. And she loves LTT truly, in her limited way, of course. Any way, Rand may need her to seal the Bore. He still doesn't know how.

 

Anyway, tear me apart, but that is my case for her having a big role in the final book, and maybe even the Light's victory.

[Jillain Sanche]

Not sure if this has been discussed but...Anyone think Lanfear might have a big part in the final book. I found it interesting what Moiraine mentioned after she was saved. "I passed through the ter'angreal""The ancient treaty held for both of us..." . . .

 

I think you may have a point about the "one who is dead, yet lives." Now, I always thought this was Moiraine, and it may well be. But Moiraine never died, Lanfear did. And she has all that Bore knowledge. And she loves LTT truly, in her limited way, of course. Any way, Rand may need her to seal the Bore. He still doesn't know how. Anyway, tear me apart, but that is my case for her having a big role in the final book, and maybe even the Light's victory.

 

Well that is an interesting question. If you recall, there have been a couple of quotes from Min in TGS and TOM regarding how to seal the Bore, based on her readings of Fel's books.

In TGS, she read something about a need to have something with which to touch the DO, if my memory serves. I have wondered if Rand could use Moridin through their baleful "connection"?

[Cirin]

I had postulated after Moridin's and Rand's discussion in The Gathering Storm that "A Memory of Light" may be referring to Moridin finally coming back around to the Light, particularly since his "fall" so to speak was largely caused by him seeing the Dark One's release as the only escape from the endless cycle (note the almost exact parellel to Rand's dilemma at the end of that book), but after the scene at the end of this book it is possible that Lanfear could play that role as well. Certainly if anyone knows how to close the Dark One's prison, Moridin (his Champion) and Lanfear (the one who drilled the Bore in the first place) would be the two. Time will tell.

 

By the way, I thought Graendel still being alive was kind of a waste. Not only did they remove a sweet and fitting death for her (I thought it she was gonzo in the last book), but she didn't even do anything effective in this book, just sat in a cave. We'll see if she's around in the next book, but I kind of got the feeling she was all done... maybe not, though, we'll see.

[Ruska777]

Does anyone have any thoughts as to whether or not Moggy is going to have any impact in the last book......aside from being mindtrapped. Just finnished my

fourth re-read of the series and find myself wondering when, not if, Moridin will switch sides. Seeing him fighting with Rand...possibly smoking Taim, would be epic.

 

 

[MrFantasy]

I have to say, from a knowledgeable background perspective I am extremely disappointed in the MEDIOCRE job the Forsaken have done since being released from their prison. If you think of the tremendous advantage that they had in the beginning, when they were all freed and no one even knew they were free, it is truly shocking to see how little they have accomplished in their time.

 

IF I WERE NAE'BLIS, things would be different. You wouldn't've just be given a free pass to do as you wish, you'd get very specific, strict orders, and it'd be made clear that if you disobeyed or failed to complete the task in any way, you'd immediately be executed and that was that.

 

I would've ordered a massive assault on the White Tower to kill as many of their leaders and powerful channelers as possible. It is likely that one or several of the Forsaken may have died in such a pursuit, but you can't tell me that they wouldn't have taken out a LARGE amount of Aes Sedai if they were careful how they went about things.

 

Also, I would've ordered the Forsaken to either take over or kill every single World Leader and anyone who stepped up to the place of the assassinated World leader. That would have plunged much of the world into utter chaos, thereby ensuring that the inevitable takeover of the Shadow was smooth and efficient, with hardly any resistance.

 

And last but not least, how, the name of Holy Hell, could they really have failed to kill Rand if that was the will of the Great Lord?! In the beginning of the series he was a simple country rube, not knowing up from down on a sword! If Fades and Trollocs could've located him, then you bet your ass Forsaken could've located him and they could've simply killed him without a fight, just a simple weave of fire to consume him.

 

Simply pathetic. F-- Moridin!! I don't care what plots you have stewing I could've done a far better job were I in your place!

[Elan Tedronai]

I have to say, from a knowledgeable background perspective I am extremely disappointed in the MEDIOCRE job the Forsaken have done since being released from their prison. If you think of the tremendous advantage that they had in the beginning, when they were all freed and no one even knew they were free, it is truly shocking to see how little they have accomplished in their time.

 

IF I WERE NAE'BLIS, things would be different. You wouldn't've just be given a free pass to do as you wish, you'd get very specific, strict orders, and it'd be made clear that if you disobeyed or failed to complete the task in any way, you'd immediately be executed and that was that.

 

I would've ordered a massive assault on the White Tower to kill as many of their leaders and powerful channelers as possible. It is likely that one or several of the Forsaken may have died in such a pursuit, but you can't tell me that they wouldn't have taken out a LARGE amount of Aes Sedai if they were careful how they went about things.

 

Also, I would've ordered the Forsaken to either take over or kill every single World Leader and anyone who stepped up to the place of the assassinated World leader. That would have plunged much of the world into utter chaos, thereby ensuring that the inevitable takeover of the Shadow was smooth and efficient, with hardly any resistance.

 

And last but not least, how, the name of Holy Hell, could they really have failed to kill Rand if that was the will of the Great Lord?! In the beginning of the series he was a simple country rube, not knowing up from down on a sword! If Fades and Trollocs could've located him, then you bet your ass Forsaken could've located him and they could've simply killed him without a fight, just a simple weave of fire to consume him.

 

Simply pathetic. F-- Moridin!! I don't care what plots you have stewing I could've done a far better job were I in your place!

 

 

the forsaken are a bunch of morons. all they needed was to send a gholam to the white tower. send another to shador lagoth during the cleansing of saidin.

 

what we have here is bunch of useless tools. i mean look at sammael's death. moridin helped rand and 2 books later he orders forsaken to take him or kill him if he attempts to cleanse saidin.

 

moridin is a fool just like his boss.

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, it is a good question why the gholam was sent to Ebou Dar and not Tar Valon. Or why the Forsaken didn't just link into a super-circle with a few dozen Black Ajah girls and smoke the whole island back in book two. They really do seem to be more of a group of incompetent halfwits than dangerous super villians.