Discuss The Forsaken

[MrFantasy]

I think its more instead of keeping it simple the Forsaken have watched too many James Bond movies and come up with too many complex plans. The Tear plan, the plan to kill Perrin, the whole egwene in WT (Mesana could of killed her easy at any time), with Egwene dead, a key to rand would be gone and the rebels would of been screwed once Asan'gar had to flee. Just seems alot of the plans are needlessly complex. And they rely too much on others, who end up screwing up their plans. The orginal 13 BA who feld the tower proved really disapponinting in most their tasks, the army sent after Mat, army sent after Perin, etc....

 

Exactly. If they had a little more balls and weren't so afraid of direct confrontation they could've crushed almost all of their problems a long time ago.

[Danvighar]

After some thought... as a group, the Forsaken are foolish and weak.

 

However...

 

While from the reader's perspective, Graendal's plan to kill Perrin was worthless - how much do any of the Forsaken (save perhaps Moridin, and he's the kind of jerk who doesn't volunteer info like that) know about Wolfbrothers and their capabilities? How many wolfbrothers even show ability in Tel'aran'Rhiod, let alone this kind of strength? If Perrin had not had this ability, or had not been able to get strong quickly enough, Slayer would have killed Perrin and the Trollocs may well have taken out everyone else.

 

Between lack of sufficient intel, and underestimating the good guys, ("I don't believe it!" - Luke. "And that is why you fail" - Yoda), explains many of their deaths. Some of what the good guys do SHOULDN'T be possible, according to everything they know. And after all, they are the product of a superior age, where magic was scienced to death, explored in a rational manner rather than this fumble-fingered 'this feels right' so-called methodology, etc, etc - their disdain, however lacking in genre-savvy, is relatively sensible.

 

The Forsaken, even the ones who specialize in analytical fields, have certain issues inherent to their nature ("Selfishness must be preserved"). They refuse to trust each other... probably for good reason, as it's quite possible that some of the nameless 2nd-age Chosen died to "friendly" fire during the War of the Shadow.

 

Due to their 'cultural superiority' and 'superior training', they underestimate not only the good guys, but their minions, thinking of them as children not just in ability, but in mind and ambition. Sure, the Black Ajah all bow to the Great Mistress or Great Master, but Liandrin and Alviarin also tend to think of how they'll get lucky and supplant the Chosen the first chance they get, while being careful to keep their plans to themselves.

 

Even though they acknowledge Moridin as Nae'blis in 'public', each of them is certain that they, too, could be Nae'blis if things go their way, but apparently they have to follow direct orders or risk having their soul eaten or something (Dark One as Great Old One?). They also have little respect for each others' abilities, so if anything it's surprising that there were two Trios amongst them (Semirhage, Demandred and Mesaana; Graendal, Sammael, and Rahvin). (I wonder if there are any more, that we simply didn't know about; were Aginor and Balthemal a team, or just the two nearest the door save Ishamael, and got sent to deal with the problem?)

 

So, yeah. If they were genre-savvy and broke the fourth wall, they'd probably be doing a better job of it. But they were favored for their selfishness, not their urge for mass destruction. They were allowed to live because they obeyed orders, not because they ganged up and did the most sensible course of action. Why should they exhaust themselves in a charge up the middle that leaves them vulnerable to a mere 200-year-old half-trained child (either light-side or an ambitious BA)? They can't trust their comrades not to be holding back and looking to stick the knife in at the stupidest time, after all. How can they use a gholam before they find the stasis box holding it?

[Elan Tedronai]

I have to say, from a knowledgeable background perspective I am extremely disappointed in the MEDIOCRE job the Forsaken have done since being released from their prison. If you think of the tremendous advantage that they had in the beginning, when they were all freed and no one even knew they were free, it is truly shocking to see how little they have accomplished in their time.

 

IF I WERE NAE'BLIS, things would be different. You wouldn't've just be given a free pass to do as you wish, you'd get very specific, strict orders, and it'd be made clear that if you disobeyed or failed to complete the task in any way, you'd immediately be executed and that was that.

 

I would've ordered a massive assault on the White Tower to kill as many of their leaders and powerful channelers as possible. It is likely that one or several of the Forsaken may have died in such a pursuit, but you can't tell me that they wouldn't have taken out a LARGE amount of Aes Sedai if they were careful how they went about things.

 

Also, I would've ordered the Forsaken to either take over or kill every single World Leader and anyone who stepped up to the place of the assassinated World leader. That would have plunged much of the world into utter chaos, thereby ensuring that the inevitable takeover of the Shadow was smooth and efficient, with hardly any resistance.

 

And last but not least, how, the name of Holy Hell, could they really have failed to kill Rand if that was the will of the Great Lord?! In the beginning of the series he was a simple country rube, not knowing up from down on a sword! If Fades and Trollocs could've located him, then you bet your ass Forsaken could've located him and they could've simply killed him without a fight, just a simple weave of fire to consume him.

 

Simply pathetic. F-- Moridin!! I don't care what plots you have stewing I could've done a far better job were I in your place!

 

 

the forsaken are a bunch of morons. all they needed was to send a gholam to the white tower. send another to shador lagoth during the cleansing of saidin.

what we have here is bunch of useless tools. i mean look at sammael's death. moridin helped rand and 2 books later he orders forsaken to take him or kill him if he attempts to cleanse saidin.

 

moridin is a fool just like his boss.

 

You keep repeating this for some reason. Forsaken didn't know if Rand was going to Shadar Logoth or when. But let not logic be our friend in this. Bash away.

 

 

yes they didnt know when but they didnt have to. the channelling of choedan kal was enough to point rand's location or have you missed that part.

[Elan Tedronai]

people are just making excuses for forsaken. all it takes is one gholam in the white tower. pretty elementary my dear watson as holmes would say. then again common sense is not the forsaken's strong point

 

So why couldn't six destroy the AoL Aes Sedai? Surely, six whole gholam were sufficient, no?

 

 

AOL aes sedai are way better and more knowledgeable than the current lot. You drop a gholam in the white tower and i doubt they would know what the hell is it or how to counter it.

[bjsm]

As to the surreptitious stealing and murdering of Aes Sedai is more plausible, but still will eventually fail considering you can't just move darkfriends around willy nilly. The Amyrlin Seat would see a giant move of staff to the kitchens as a little suspicious.

 

Giant move? Compulsion and/or employing a few Darkfriend cooks should be enough.

 

They have sent many others to be forcibly turned in the Black Tower.

 

Sure, but if the bad guys had half a clue they could easily turned all Aes Sedai into Dreadlords. Or should I say Dreadladies? :) Kidnap, use 13/13, turn, rinse, repeat. Sounds simple enough even for the likes of Liandrin and Galina to achieve...

 

We know now that someone turned using 13x13 is really obvious. Everyone would figure out something was up after three Aes Sedai disappeared and then came back with cruel smiles and dead eyes. Also, this is speculation, but it seems like something bad probably happens to the Myrddraal involved in a turning. They may even die. 13 Myrddraal are not easy to sneak into the Tower as Aes Sedai can sense Shadowspawn. Sneaking in 13 Myrddraal for every Aes Sedai to be turned would be an impossible undertaking.

[didymos]

people are just making excuses for forsaken. all it takes is one gholam in the white tower. pretty elementary my dear watson as holmes would say. then again common sense is not the forsaken's strong point

 

So why couldn't six destroy the AoL Aes Sedai? Surely, six whole gholam were sufficient, no?

 

 

AOL aes sedai are way better and more knowledgeable than the current lot. You drop a gholam in the white tower and i doubt they would know what the hell is it or how to counter it.

 

Yeah, well, some of the Forsaken were frightened by the things and thought they should have never been made, and they were at least as knowledgeable as other AoL Aes Sedai.

[Cyf]

It's pretty simple. The gholam is an assassin, not a warrioer. It was designed to hunt down and kill people.

 

By the time an Aes Sedai, either AoL /or/ current age, finds out it's immune to the power, it's gotten in and ripped out their throat.

 

On the other hand, in an upright battle, it's not that buff. Comparatively. Yes, it'll kill quite a few, but they'll bring walls down upon it, and slow it down. AoL probably could do the Gateway trick Mat did, or something.

 

Again, assassins, not ultimate warriors. :)

[MrFantasy]

The real reason that the Forsaken seem to be so incompetent is because if they really were written as vicious and effective as we imagine that they could be then there wouldn't be any story to tell.

[WhiskyJack]

I have to say, from a knowledgeable background perspective I am extremely disappointed in the MEDIOCRE job the Forsaken have done since being released from their prison. If you think of the tremendous advantage that they had in the beginning, when they were all freed and no one even knew they were free, it is truly shocking to see how little they have accomplished in their time.

 

IF I WERE NAE'BLIS, things would be different. You wouldn't've just be given a free pass to do as you wish, you'd get very specific, strict orders, and it'd be made clear that if you disobeyed or failed to complete the task in any way, you'd immediately be executed and that was that.

 

I would've ordered a massive assault on the White Tower to kill as many of their leaders and powerful channelers as possible. It is likely that one or several of the Forsaken may have died in such a pursuit, but you can't tell me that they wouldn't have taken out a LARGE amount of Aes Sedai if they were careful how they went about things.

 

Also, I would've ordered the Forsaken to either take over or kill every single World Leader and anyone who stepped up to the place of the assassinated World leader. That would have plunged much of the world into utter chaos, thereby ensuring that the inevitable takeover of the Shadow was smooth and efficient, with hardly any resistance.

 

And last but not least, how, the name of Holy Hell, could they really have failed to kill Rand if that was the will of the Great Lord?! In the beginning of the series he was a simple country rube, not knowing up from down on a sword! If Fades and Trollocs could've located him, then you bet your ass Forsaken could've located him and they could've simply killed him without a fight, just a simple weave of fire to consume him.

 

Simply pathetic. F-- Moridin!! I don't care what plots you have stewing I could've done a far better job were I in your place!

 

 

the forsaken are a bunch of morons. all they needed was to send a gholam to the white tower. send another to shador lagoth during the cleansing of saidin.

what we have here is bunch of useless tools. i mean look at sammael's death. moridin helped rand and 2 books later he orders forsaken to take him or kill him if he attempts to cleanse saidin.

 

moridin is a fool just like his boss.

 

You keep repeating this for some reason. Forsaken didn't know if Rand was going to Shadar Logoth or when. But let not logic be our friend in this. Bash away.

 

 

yes they didnt know when but they didnt have to. the channelling of choedan kal was enough to point rand's location or have you missed that part.

 

 

Yeh I missed the part about a Gholam just waiting next door eager for their command, right? Oh wait, you think they have dozen gholams at hand..Again. lets not logic be a...We have only seen ONE gholam and that one was busy chasing Mat..Now only if Forsaken had a chip planted on Gholam so that they can go and fetch him when needed..only if..

 

 

So yes, I missed that part.

[MrFantasy]

I have to say, from a knowledgeable background perspective I am extremely disappointed in the MEDIOCRE job the Forsaken have done since being released from their prison. If you think of the tremendous advantage that they had in the beginning, when they were all freed and no one even knew they were free, it is truly shocking to see how little they have accomplished in their time.

 

IF I WERE NAE'BLIS, things would be different. You wouldn't've just be given a free pass to do as you wish, you'd get very specific, strict orders, and it'd be made clear that if you disobeyed or failed to complete the task in any way, you'd immediately be executed and that was that.

 

I would've ordered a massive assault on the White Tower to kill as many of their leaders and powerful channelers as possible. It is likely that one or several of the Forsaken may have died in such a pursuit, but you can't tell me that they wouldn't have taken out a LARGE amount of Aes Sedai if they were careful how they went about things.

 

Also, I would've ordered the Forsaken to either take over or kill every single World Leader and anyone who stepped up to the place of the assassinated World leader. That would have plunged much of the world into utter chaos, thereby ensuring that the inevitable takeover of the Shadow was smooth and efficient, with hardly any resistance.

 

And last but not least, how, the name of Holy Hell, could they really have failed to kill Rand if that was the will of the Great Lord?! In the beginning of the series he was a simple country rube, not knowing up from down on a sword! If Fades and Trollocs could've located him, then you bet your ass Forsaken could've located him and they could've simply killed him without a fight, just a simple weave of fire to consume him.

 

Simply pathetic. F-- Moridin!! I don't care what plots you have stewing I could've done a far better job were I in your place!

 

 

the forsaken are a bunch of morons. all they needed was to send a gholam to the white tower. send another to shador lagoth during the cleansing of saidin.

what we have here is bunch of useless tools. i mean look at sammael's death. moridin helped rand and 2 books later he orders forsaken to take him or kill him if he attempts to cleanse saidin.

 

moridin is a fool just like his boss.

 

You keep repeating this for some reason. Forsaken didn't know if Rand was going to Shadar Logoth or when. But let not logic be our friend in this. Bash away.

 

 

yes they didnt know when but they didnt have to. the channelling of choedan kal was enough to point rand's location or have you missed that part.

 

 

Yeh I missed the part about a Gholam just waiting next door eager for their command, right? Oh wait, you think they have dozen gholams at hand..Again. lets not logic be a...We have only seen ONE gholam and that one was busy chasing Mat..Now only if Forsaken had a chip planted on Gholam so that they can go and fetch him when needed..only if..

 

 

So yes, I missed that part.

 

Yeah but if whomever among the Forsaken was truly competent they would've either kept the Gholam handy, or established some means by which they could retrieve it at short notice. Actually a tracking chip is a good idea, maybe they could've thought to use one like Moiraine gave to Rand, Mat, and Perrin in the first book and then Traveled to fetch the Gholam as soon as they felt an urgent need for it's use. If they practiced it once or twice, they could probably have a retrieval time of less than 5 minutes. It's then entirely plausible that they could've sicked the Gholam on Randy and Nynaeve while Saidin was being cleansed, not that it necessarily would've killed them, but it would've been a good idea, especially considering how adamant Shai'tan was about stopping the cleansing (every member of the Chosen was ordered to report and attack immediately without hesitation, something that hasn't happened before or since in this Age).

 

But then again, the Forsaken don't always have the best ideas.

[WhiskyJack]

Except Forsaken had no way of knowing that Rand would attempt such a feat. I am not sure about the time period but it took Rand probably few weeks only to come up with the idea than execute it.

[Sharaman]

They know because he had told Taim, etc, but they had no clue how he intended to do it, really.

Demandred's PoV at Shadar Logoth puts it together for the first time.

Even then, given the length of time the cleaning took, the gholam ("servant" btw in several Eastern languages including Arabic, Persian, Urdu) could have been pulled out of Ebou Dar and Gated to SL.

Assuming one of the FS was thinking straight and knew where to find it.

One possible problem is that it may have been unattended at that time. Sammael was dead, and it's possible that the gholam was without a live commander.

[WhiskyJack]

They know because he had told Taim, etc, but they had no clue how he intended to do it, really.

Demandred's PoV at Shadar Logoth puts it together for the first time.

Even then, given the length of time the cleaning took, the gholam ("servant" btw in several Eastern languages including Arabic, Persian, Urdu) could have been pulled out of Ebou Dar and Gated to SL.

Assuming one of the FS was thinking straight and knew where to find it.

One possible problem is that it may have been unattended at that time. Sammael was dead, and it's possible that the gholam was without a live commander.

 

 

Just because Rand told Taim? He didn't give one detail. There was no reason to not believe that Rand wasn't just insane..

 

I am not saying that they couldn't have done it better but the way it is implied..

[Sharaman]

They know because he had told Taim, etc, but they had no clue how he intended to do it, really.

Demandred's PoV at Shadar Logoth puts it together for the first time.

Even then, given the length of time the cleaning took, the gholam ("servant" btw in several Eastern languages including Arabic, Persian, Urdu) could have been pulled out of Ebou Dar and Gated to SL.

Assuming one of the FS was thinking straight and knew where to find it.

One possible problem is that it may have been unattended at that time. Sammael was dead, and it's possible that the gholam was without a live commander.

 

 

Just because Rand told Taim? He didn't give one detail. There was no reason to not believe that Rand wasn't just insane..

 

I am not saying that they couldn't have done it better but the way it is implied..

It became obvious only once he started using the CK at Shadar Logoth. But even before that, the orders to kill him if required and bring what was in his possession means that the threat was taken seriously.

The cleaning carried on for many hours.

Once the FS went there and found too much resistance to break through to Rand, somebody could have gated back to Ebou Dar and transported the gholam to SL.

Assuming they could find it of course and that's maybe the problem.

[bsmnt23]

a thought about Mirin/Lanfear. So, 13 Dreadlords channeling through 13 myrdraal can turn a channeler to the Dark, presumably touching that channeler directly through to the Dark One itself albeit through the filters of the myrdraal. We know that Mirin was one of the lead reasearchers on the "New Power source" back in the AoL from Rand's walk through the crystal pilars. Think it's possible that Mirin never actualy ment to go darkside and that she was just turned unwittingly in that instant where the Dark One touched the world for the first time? That was a pretty significant explosion of dark energy and she was presumably at the heart of it.

 

Disguss

[RedRaider]

Forsaken were hardly "intimidating" during AOL, powerful or not. Powerful Aes Sedai were dime a dozen back then. 3000 years of story telling has made forsaken larger than life sod their real self are not living up to the standard one might expect from them.

 

Several of the Forsaken were Generals over vast armies, they were very organized and worked in conjunction with one another, and they nearly won the war. They were not to be underestimated and were very tactically sound. Since they were released from their prison they seem to be mostly idiots. THe prize was the same in the AOL as now, so what happened to them?

[Mats Spare Hat]

Forsaken were hardly "intimidating" during AOL, powerful or not. Powerful Aes Sedai were dime a dozen back then. 3000 years of story telling has made forsaken larger than life sod their real self are not living up to the standard one might expect from them.

 

Several of the Forsaken were Generals over vast armies, they were very organized and worked in conjunction with one another, and they nearly won the war. They were not to be underestimated and were very tactically sound. Since they were released from their prison they seem to be mostly idiots. THe prize was the same in the AOL as now, so what happened to them?

 

 

Probably woke up all dopey from sleeping 3000 years without any coffee to jump start the brain pan... ..For real though the lead-up between the bore being drilled, and the actual war of power in the AoL was 80-100 years, and then the war itself lasted 50-75 years (as per TSR) or if you go the BWB, 10 years.

 

All of the events in the series, from EoTW to ToM have taken less than 5 years. It seems pretty evident that no matter how experienced a given Forsaken may be that if they don't have that same sort of infrastructure as they had in AoL, that things are going to be a little loopy for them considering the time-frame differential.

 

That being said, since the alarm clock went off the Forsaken are insinuated to have been responsible for tearing up the greatest most stable empire in the world (Seanchan), Mesanna FSU in the WT pretty well with the BA, and a couple of them both managed to take over two of the most powerful kingdoms in Randland (Illian & Andor). Rahvin & Sammael both get Rando'd(Rambo'd), but he's the Dragon Reborn so it's not like the Forsaken had an oxen die and contracted dysentery.

 

I say they aren't doing too shabby of a job considering they've all only been loose for 2-3 years.

[Crashy]

The breaking of Semirhage didn't sit well with me.

You could torture her and she wont break but a couple of smacks on the bum will have her on her hands and knees eating beans off a filthy dungeon floor?

 

Reading that just made me cringe. Sure, her ego was her Achilles heel but what is more degrading, a spanking or scrabbling about eating beans off a dirty floor with an audience watching?

 

 

As for Sammael, from reading the books I see no reason to believe him dead, unless Rands Balefire got him.

If RJ said Mashadar killed him then I guess I would have to take his word for it but if that is the way it was meant to be then why was it left open like that?

 

Also, every single death by Mashadar in the books was slow, agonizing and generally involved much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the victim but Sammy just vanished. If there is no mention of him in the upcomming book then it will just feel like a plot hole to me.

[Guest Mextex]

I had a thought while I was rereading ToM earlier today- about Min's prophecy about rand wielding a sword of light fighting against a figure wielding a sword of darkness.

 

What if the sword of darkness is basically the shadow's copy of Callandor? And wielded by Moridin linked with Cyndane and Moghedien? There has to be a deeper reason why there's been two female Forsaken mind trapped besides the failure part; other Forsaken have failed just as badly, if not more, and were mostly allowed to go their own way. And it would fit a 'rival' theme as well, Rand vs. Ishamael/Moridin, Nynaeve vs. Moghedien, Moiraine vs. Lanfear/Cyndane...

 

Obviously it's just speculation on my part, but it seems to me it has some plausiblity at least (if not, feel free to correct me; I'm no expert in Jordan/Sanderson quotes, let alone every detail that happens in the book). In the same boat, we could think of Mat and Demandred squaring off their armies on the battlefield; I'm beginning to get convinced Demandred is mainly involved in Murandy, and not the Black Tower. It wouldn't make sense to place Aginor/Osan'gar there if there's already a Forsaken with influence, though he could have picked up where the mad scientist let off.

 

As for Graendal... I was thinking of Perrin, but Slayer is the more logical for him. Maybe Alivia? IIRC they're similar in the power, and it would give her a purpose still. (It's a shame she was absent from ToM, but leaving that aside.) Egwene/Elayne/Adviendha are too weak in the power, they will probably do nothing much or face random dreadlords- unless they find Alviarin, IIRC she didn't die/get captured in ToM.

 

Which leaves Shaidar Haran and Padan Fain- how ironic would it be if those two squared off, making Fain the true wild card that ultimately helps the light secure its victory.

 

Again, feel free to correct me if I have made any mistakes.

[RedVanilla]

I thought perhaps the hand of Onynx was it? that Min saw was Rand's new fake hand for holding swords yet to be made....but the idea of it being Moridin,Cyndane, and Moghedien is brilliant!

[Mr Hindley]

What do people think Graendal's status is likely to be in the next book? Sadly, with so much else going on, I suspect we've broadly seen the last of her as a standalone character. A terrible waste of a great character, but I'd say she'll just be mindtrapped and sit on a stool next to Moghedien being pointless once or twice, then get mind-splatted in one final act by Moridin. Nice to see Cyndane finally showing signs of doing something interesting.

 

As for Demandred, wasn't there some quote by BS that he was going to be the main villain of the last 2 books? Not turning out that way, is it? With only one book left, and so much else that has to be resolved, I honestly don't see how he can be anything other than a let-down. If he's running Murandy, well, er, so what when you already have Caemlyn being ransacked by Trollocs? Even if he did somehow turn out to be Mazrim Taim, again, so what? We know Taim is a bad guy, we know what he's up to - if it turns out he's not Taim but someone else, the threat is still the same, and frankly at this point I find Taim, or most of the other remaining villains more interesting than no-show Demandred.

 

Basically, I think we're now down to the point where Moridin - and possibly Cyndane - is the only Forsaken left with anything significant to contribute. Which is reasonable at this stage of the series - in a 13-book series, from a narrative point of view, the other Forsaken were the warm-up act for Rand vs Ishamael + DO.

[threadnecromancer]

Also on the more philosophical note, i am unsure whether this turn of the wheel will be anything special. In one sense I think it should be different since I am reading a story about it. But on the other hand throughout the whole series there has a been a strong message about the cyclical nature of the wheel, to break it would break one of the core concepts of the WOT universe.

 

To be honest I actually hope that the wheel will stay intact and the world basically stays the same with the One Power, T'A'R and all that stuff. I'm too scared of finding out that Randland is just Earth in the distant past or even worse: I'm scared of Rand digging a huge hole trying to find another Choden Kal and ending up uncovering the Statue of Liberty... "Planet of the Apes"-Style. 

 

Actually Randland is just Earth in the future (as well as in a way, the past). There have been hints about this since the first book (remember "Elsbet Queen of All" or Glen going to the moon in an eagle of fire), Rand won't dig up the Statue of Liberty as I would presume that (assuming the statue still exists at all) it would be in Seanchan and we have been told that there will be no more expeditions to Seanchan in the main series.

[Elan Tedronai]

What do people think Graendal's status is likely to be in the next book? Sadly, with so much else going on, I suspect we've broadly seen the last of her as a standalone character. A terrible waste of a great character, but I'd say she'll just be mindtrapped and sit on a stool next to Moghedien being pointless once or twice, then get mind-splatted in one final act by Moridin. Nice to see Cyndane finally showing signs of doing something interesting.

 

As for Demandred, wasn't there some quote by BS that he was going to be the main villain of the last 2 books? Not turning out that way, is it? With only one book left, and so much else that has to be resolved, I honestly don't see how he can be anything other than a let-down. If he's running Murandy, well, er, so what when you already have Caemlyn being ransacked by Trollocs? Even if he did somehow turn out to be Mazrim Taim, again, so what? We know Taim is a bad guy, we know what he's up to - if it turns out he's not Taim but someone else, the threat is still the same, and frankly at this point I find Taim, or most of the other remaining villains more interesting than no-show Demandred.

 

Basically, I think we're now down to the point where Moridin - and possibly Cyndane - is the only Forsaken left with anything significant to contribute. Which is reasonable at this stage of the series - in a 13-book series, from a narrative point of view, the other Forsaken were the warm-up act for Rand vs Ishamael + DO.

 

i think this is partly RJ's fault. He bigged up these guys as the baddest of the badasses who even caused alot of problems for LTT and his crew to the point of forcing LTT into his final desperate act.

 

Fast forward 3000 years later and they look like a bunch of clowns.

[ranjitb]

While the forsaken suffer terribly from "Evil Overlord Syndrome" (as do eventually all the big baddies in fantasy fiction), they are not complete bumbling buffoons as some people seem to think them to be.

A fact that you are overlooking is that anachronistic displacement is just as hard in both directions - the forsaken may have been very capable and able IN THEIR TIME, with the world and resources AS THEY UNDERSTOOD THEM. Now suddenly fast forward three thousand years and they have been thrown into a psuedo-medieval society where the technological level is two steps ahead of the iron age.

Hell, most graduate students at my University are incapable of adding two numbers together without the aid of a calculator. How well do you think most of your contemporaries would do if you took away their computers, cells phones, internet, cars etc. Not too well I'm guessing.

 

Just because Demandred had a great deal of success with a well trained army, a bazillion fancy sounding Angreal like sho-lances and joh-cars and what not doesn't mean he will be as good at using farmers with longbows. Its a stretch of the imagination as it is that the forsaken even know what the hell a longbow is.

[Elan Tedronai]

part of being a good villain is being able to adapt and be resourceful. No excuses for the forsaken being tools. Every plan has been up to now has been foiled by a bunch of farm boys and girls. the moment moridin helped rand against sammael was the turning point for me. i couldn't take any more forsaken seriously after that.