Elayne's Arc

[smileyman]

I stand behind elaynes actions 100%, she had to appear to be taking a tough stance on the 'rebels'

 

 

now for something I think is more interesting. I think Andor is going to break in half, after the shadowspawn have destroyed the city, and once the shadows armies that over run kandor come south I think that the band and the other military groups are going to be pushed back.

 

I think Andor is doomed. Especially since almost any noteworthy army is in the field of merillor,

 

I think Elayne was justified in her reaction to Perrin. I don't think she had any serious intentions of arresting or beheading Perrin, but she did have to bring it up and they reached a nice legal fiction to keep the Two Rivers independent with Perrin still in charge.

 

I would really like to see Caemlyn burn to the ground--after all Elayne has a nice throne waiting for her in Cairhien, but I can't see it happening. As far as the armies go, the Red Hand is still in Caemlyn as is a huge number of mercenaries and sell swords. They may not be the best soldiers around, but they'll have competent leadership with Mat or Talmanes there.

[Mr Ares]

So, I've still not seen any decent reason why going into your own dungeons, with your own armed guards outside, disguised as an ally, armed with the Power, to interrogate an unarmed and shielded prisoner is a stupid plan or a massive risk. Really, it seems like people are just saying this decision was stupid because they think it's mandatory for her to make at least one massive cock up per book.

 

Elayne knew it was a dumb idea BEFORE she did it.

 

"That means that the two of them have gone out for drinks", Elayne said with a sigh. Light, this was a bad time for it.

 

Or was it a good time? Birgitte couldn't object to Elayne's plan for the Black Ajah if she was out with Mat."

 

Later, she overrode the attempt at objections by her guards.

 

Honestly - what's the point of having a Warder if you are going to not only ignore their warnings, but act in a way where they cannot even object to your dumb plans?

 

I like Elayne - I think she's a pretty strong character, though she's not one of my favorites. But she does really stupid things...

So Elayne knew it was a dumb idea? Would you care to provide a quote to substantiate that? The one you provide says that the timing might be bad - which she then decides isn't the case, the timing might be good after all - but not the idea. As for overriding the objections of her guards, she is the Queen. She has that right. It is not enough to say that the plan is dumb, you have to give reasons why, and so far everyone has failed, completely and utterly, to provide a decent explanation for why that plan could be considered stupid. As it is, she came up with a sensible plan that went disastrously wrong in an unforeseeable way.

[sleepinghour]

Was rereading TDR for the part about Noam and came across this quote:

 

"Chesmal Emry is one of the most talented Healers anyone has seen in years. Light, could you imagine being Healed by one of the Black Ajah?"

-- Elayne, The Dragon Reborn chapter 25

[David Selig]

Was rereading TDR for the part about Noam and came across this quote:

 

"Chesmal Emry is one of the most talented Healers anyone has seen in years. Light, could you imagine being Healed by one of the Black Ajah?"

-- Elayne, The Dragon Reborn chapter 25

Nice find.

 

It's impressive how often such small hints turn out to be important many books later.

[MattTaz]

Just a quick one:

 

Elayne telling Gawyn he was jealous and selfish, couldnt help punching the air at that one.

Mat wandering the Halls of Mourning, I think BS showed how much Mat cares for Olver a few times in this book.

Mats copy medallions were going to be given to Tuon and Olver says a lot. I really think Olver is gonna buy it in AMOL.

Will Caemlyn be destroyed???? I think the Legion of the Dragon may decide. They probably number 50,000+ by now.

Are they still camped near Caemlyn?

[WhiteJoker]

Just a quick one:

 

Will Caemlyn be destroyed???? I think the Legion of the Dragon may decide. They probably number 50,000+ by now.

Are they still camped near Caemlyn?

No. When Rand pulled out of Andor for Elayne he pulled everything except the Black Tower out. If the Legion was still there she'd have used them somehow to help secure her throne and considering her insistence of securing the throne without Rand's help, the only logical use she'd have had for the Legion would be to kick them out to show how she can make Rand do what she wants; anything else would have implied she was leaning on Rand's power and influence.

[Baelorn]

So Elayne knew it was a dumb idea? Would you care to provide a quote to substantiate that? The one you provide says that the timing might be bad - which she then decides isn't the case, the timing might be good after all - but not the idea. As for overriding the objections of her guards, she is the Queen. She has that right. It is not enough to say that the plan is dumb, you have to give reasons why, and so far everyone has failed, completely and utterly, to provide a decent explanation for why that plan could be considered stupid. As it is, she came up with a sensible plan that went disastrously wrong in an unforeseeable way.

 

I think you're getting hung up on what the dumb part of it was. The plan was not dumb. It was actually a very good plan. I thought her disguise was one of the coolest uses of MoM we've seen. However, she knew it was dangerous. Even if she didn't think so she knew Birgitte would and her guards clearly thought it was as well.

 

Look at it this way. Mat is an amazing General. He's so awesome his plans are almost always foolproof. Mat knows how good his plans are but guess what? He almost always has a contingency plan. Just in case that one toss of the dice out of a thousand doesn't go his way he always has a way out.

 

Elayne's plans have a much lower success rate but she doesn't see the need for any backup or a contingency plan? That is dumb.

[Charlz Guybon]

Just a quick one:

 

Will Caemlyn be destroyed???? I think the Legion of the Dragon may decide. They probably number 50,000+ by now.

Are they still camped near Caemlyn?

No. When Rand pulled out of Andor for Elayne he pulled everything except the Black Tower out. If the Legion was still there she'd have used them somehow to help secure her throne and considering her insistence of securing the throne without Rand's help, the only logical use she'd have had for the Legion would be to kick them out to show how she can make Rand do what she wants; anything else would have implied she was leaning on Rand's power and influence.

When was the last time they were mentioned? KoD? Maybe even TPoD? They seem to have been forgotten about completely.

[randsc]

Just a quick one:

 

Will Caemlyn be destroyed???? I think the Legion of the Dragon may decide. They probably number 50,000+ by now.

Are they still camped near Caemlyn?

No. When Rand pulled out of Andor for Elayne he pulled everything except the Black Tower out. If the Legion was still there she'd have used them somehow to help secure her throne and considering her insistence of securing the throne without Rand's help, the only logical use she'd have had for the Legion would be to kick them out to show how she can make Rand do what she wants; anything else would have implied she was leaning on Rand's power and influence.

When was the last time they were mentioned? KoD? Maybe even TPoD? They seem to have been forgotten about completely.

 

But they have been in every index, which suggests they still have a key role to play.

[Mr Ares]

So Elayne knew it was a dumb idea? Would you care to provide a quote to substantiate that? The one you provide says that the timing might be bad - which she then decides isn't the case, the timing might be good after all - but not the idea. As for overriding the objections of her guards, she is the Queen. She has that right. It is not enough to say that the plan is dumb, you have to give reasons why, and so far everyone has failed, completely and utterly, to provide a decent explanation for why that plan could be considered stupid. As it is, she came up with a sensible plan that went disastrously wrong in an unforeseeable way.

I think you're getting hung up on what the dumb part of it was. The plan was not dumb. It was actually a very good plan. I thought her disguise was one of the coolest uses of MoM we've seen. However, she knew it was dangerous. Even if she didn't think so she knew Birgitte would and her guards clearly thought it was as well.

 

Look at it this way. Mat is an amazing General. He's so awesome his plans are almost always foolproof. Mat knows how good his plans are but guess what? He almost always has a contingency plan. Just in case that one toss of the dice out of a thousand doesn't go his way he always has a way out.

 

Elayne's plans have a much lower success rate but she doesn't see the need for any backup or a contingency plan? That is dumb.

The thing is, no-one has been able to explain what the dumb part actually was. How was it dangerous? She was disguised as a Chosen. If that failed, she was still a channeler. Against a shielded opponent. In her own dungeon. With her own guards and the Kin holding the shield nearby. And she can't be killed, nor can she miscarry. She has Healers nearby if she is injured, which is itself a somewhat distant possibility. The odds are stacked ridiculously in her favour, what more should she have done? No-one other than her was put in any danger, and the danger to herself was minimal. She had back up. Seriously, what more precautions would it have been reasonable to take? What sort of contingencies should she have? Why can no-one give a good answer to any of this?

[randsc]

The plan wasn't dumb. In fact, what is dumb is that no one thought to try it before.

 

What is dumb is the waiting-until-my-warder-is-out-of-the-castle-so-I-can-be-naughty-girl crap.

 

What's the purpose of Warders, again?

 

Hell, if we want to be honest about it, it doesn't make a lot of sense for Warders to hold other important jobs. Like, say, Captain-General. They would seem to have plenty to do without that.

[gengrecko]

I think Camelyn is relatively safe. First of all Talmanes is gunning straight for those Dragons, which, when he gets to them I believe will push back the trollocs pretty nicely. Second, the Kin is still in the city, and while Elayne wouldn't force them to fight for Camelyn against intruders I have no reason to doubt that they will take up arms against the Trollocs. Then there are the AS that are also in Camelyn. Im sure all the sell swords around Camelyn will fight alongside the Band. All in all I see a blood bath for the trollocs if Talmanes can get to those Dragons fast enough.

[Durinax]

I dont know, who knows whats all with the trollocs. I think the first thing the trollocs are going to go for is the castle, they should have intell on the new weaponry.

 

I think we will see our first important darkfriend uprising in the series

 

imo Caemlyn gets destroyed

[bjsm]

I dont know, who knows whats all with the trollocs. I think the first thing the trollocs are going to go for is the castle, they should have intell on the new weaponry.

 

I think we will see our first important darkfriend uprising in the series

 

imo Caemlyn gets destroyed

 

Agreed. We need serious devastation to make it seem like the Last Battle. The Trolloc Wars began with the razing of one of the largest and most important cities in the world; it is befitting that the Last Battle begin with the destruction of another major capital, especially one around which so much of the story has revolved so far. (Well, I suppose Maradon was destroyed first, but Caemlyn is a much more important city than Maradon, and some of Maradon was saved.)

 

The dragons will be retrieved, but the city will be utterly destroyed.

[didymos]

In fact, what is dumb is that no one thought to try it before.

 

I've always hated this line of argument. Practically every novel idea becomes "obvious" in hindsight. That and it's very easy for readers, with a much wider and complete view of the books' world, to make connections the characters don't (or flat-out can't). How many people would have thought of impersonating a Forsaken in that way had we not been given examples of them using the OP to create that whole "shock and awe" effect by appearing as figures made of flame or shadow with weird voices and whatnot?

[Serenla]

The thing is, no-one has been able to explain what the dumb part actually was. How was it dangerous? She was disguised as a Chosen. If that failed, she was still a channeler. Against a shielded opponent. In her own dungeon. With her own guards and the Kin holding the shield nearby. And she can't be killed, nor can she miscarry. She has Healers nearby if she is injured, which is itself a somewhat distant possibility. The odds are stacked ridiculously in her favour, what more should she have done? No-one other than her was put in any danger, and the danger to herself was minimal. She had back up. Seriously, what more precautions would it have been reasonable to take? What sort of contingencies should she have? Why can no-one give a good answer to any of this?

Playing devil's advocate, eh? Okay, I'll give it a shot.

 

There are quite a few reasons why Elayne’s “plan” was a dumb one, starting with the fact that she didn’t actually take the time to make a plan. She acted on impulse with her motivation for moving fast being that her Warder would try to stop her from doing it. If she knew that Birgitte would see this as a bad idea, would that not clue her in to the fact that it may be dangerous?

 

Why was it dangerous? Start with the fact that if it would be believable that one of the Forsaken would visit one of the Black Ajah in Elayne’s dungeon, isn’t it possible that one of the Forsaken could interrupt her little impromptu interrogation? It might not be likely but it is a possibility.

The bigger reason it should have been obvious that it was dangerous is past experience. Elayne has been aware of three instances where a darkfriend channeler/s have been captured and held. In all three instances, other darkfriends have either killed them in captivity or freed them. Stone of Tear, Mohogdien in Salidar and Ispan on the way to Caemlyn. That’s three for three. She should have expected someone to come to either free or kill these prisoners. Being in the dungeon with them was dangerous and stupid.

 

As far as Elayne channeling, she hasn’t been able to rely on it since the early days of her pregnancy. On the very night that she was depending on channeling to protect herself, it took three tries to embrace the source. That’s like walking into a possible gunfight with a gun that may or may not reload and just hoping that you won’t have to shoot.

 

Yes, her own guards were right outside the door, but she had no way to communicate with them if she needed their help and they had no way to communicate with her if any problems came into play. That’s not backup.

 

No danger to anyone but herself? Is there any reason to believe that being stilled would hurt her children? As far as I know there isn’t any…. Being burnt out has a detrimental effect on Warders doesn’t it? I imagine stilling does too. Elayne is bonded to Birgitte Silverbow and the Dragon Reborn. So if Elayne were to get stilled it could cause the death of two Heroes of the Horn. Sounds to me like stilling Elayne could put the whole world in danger. And that’s if she is not captured again. In that case how many would have to die this time to get her back? In addition, she can have her children in a dungeon and have them be born healthy.

 

It was an idea that would have been great had she taken the time to plan. Rather than make and hold the gateway herself, she should have gotten one of the Kin to hold it. She could have make wards to be tripped in the event of any problems so that her guards would know to come in or she could have been warned to leave through the gateway. Or had guards come through the gateway to protect her if needed. She rushed into this so fast she almost went in claiming to be a Forsaken while wearing pink slippers!!! For this to even be called a plan there would have had to of been some checking of details and considering what might go wrong. Elayne did neither; she proved once again that she is an irresponsible, inconsiderate child.

[David Selig]

I started to write a detailed reply, then realised most of it just repeats what has been written pages ago and deleted it. This is really going in circles.

 

But you know what, all those complains would've sounded a lot more convincing if we weren't talking about a series in which all characters do far riskier stuff without much planning practically all the time. Normal standards don't really apply here. If we used the same kind of reasoning as in the post above for most other characters, including all of the main ones, and expected them to plan for every contingency every time, then we should consider all of them irresponsible idiots. But reading a fantasy adventure about really cautious people is just boring and this is the reason they risk more than what's usually healthy and sensible.

[Mr Ares]

The plan wasn't dumb. In fact, what is dumb is that no one thought to try it before.

 

What is dumb is the waiting-until-my-warder-is-out-of-the-castle-so-I-can-be-naughty-girl crap.

 

What's the purpose of Warders, again?

 

Hell, if we want to be honest about it, it doesn't make a lot of sense for Warders to hold other important jobs. Like, say, Captain-General. They would seem to have plenty to do without that.

What use would a Warder have been in this instance? She couldn't go in there with Elayne. She could either wait by the Gateway or by the cell door. In neither case would it have been likely she would be needed.

 

The thing is, no-one has been able to explain what the dumb part actually was. How was it dangerous? She was disguised as a Chosen. If that failed, she was still a channeler. Against a shielded opponent. In her own dungeon. With her own guards and the Kin holding the shield nearby. And she can't be killed, nor can she miscarry. She has Healers nearby if she is injured, which is itself a somewhat distant possibility. The odds are stacked ridiculously in her favour, what more should she have done? No-one other than her was put in any danger, and the danger to herself was minimal. She had back up. Seriously, what more precautions would it have been reasonable to take? What sort of contingencies should she have? Why can no-one give a good answer to any of this?

Playing devil's advocate, eh? Okay, I'll give it a shot.

 

There are quite a few reasons why Elayne’s “plan” was a dumb one, starting with the fact that she didn’t actually take the time to make a plan. She acted on impulse with her motivation for moving fast being that her Warder would try to stop her from doing it. If she knew that Birgitte would see this as a bad idea, would that not clue her in to the fact that it may be dangerous?

Or that Birgitte is overprotective.

 

Why was it dangerous? Start with the fact that if it would be believable that one of the Forsaken would visit one of the Black Ajah in Elayne’s dungeon, isn’t it possible that one of the Forsaken could interrupt her little impromptu interrogation? It might not be likely but it is a possibility.

To guard against the spectacularly unlikely in such a manner reeks of paranoia. Next, she shouldn't go outside due to the possibility of a meteorite killing her. That one of the CHosen would interrupt such a brief session is exceedingly unlikely. One cna hardly be considered stupid for failing to take precautions against stuff that almost certainly will not happen.

The bigger reason it should have been obvious that it was dangerous is past experience. Elayne has been aware of three instances where a darkfriend channeler/s have been captured and held. In all three instances, other darkfriends have either killed them in captivity or freed them. Stone of Tear, Mohogdien in Salidar and Ispan on the way to Caemlyn. That’s three for three. She should have expected someone to come to either free or kill these prisoners. Being in the dungeon with them was dangerous and stupid.

Expecting someone to attempt to free or kill them is one thing, expecting that to coincide with you being in there is quite another. Being in there with them is a negligible risk.

 

As far as Elayne channeling, she hasn’t been able to rely on it since the early days of her pregnancy. On the very night that she was depending on channeling to protect herself, it took three tries to embrace the source. That’s like walking into a possible gunfight with a gun that may or may not reload and just hoping that you won’t have to shoot.

People have pointed out in the thread that Elayne has difficulty grasping the Source, not once she has already got it. So a better analogy would be a gun with a tendency to stick in its holster being unholstered before the fight. So, precautions taken.

 

Yes, her own guards were right outside the door, but she had no way to communicate with them if she needed their help and they had no way to communicate with her if any problems came into play. That’s not backup.

She could just scream really loudly. As they are just outside the door, by your own admission, they should hear and would probably respond, if only to check on what was going on.

 

No danger to anyone but herself? Is there any reason to believe that being stilled would hurt her children? As far as I know there isn’t any…. Being burnt out has a detrimental effect on Warders doesn’t it? I imagine stilling does too. Elayne is bonded to Birgitte Silverbow and the Dragon Reborn. So if Elayne were to get stilled it could cause the death of two Heroes of the Horn. Sounds to me like stilling Elayne could put the whole world in danger. And that’s if she is not captured again. In that case how many would have to die this time to get her back? In addition, she can have her children in a dungeon and have them be born healthy.

Captured by who? The shielded prisoner in the dungeon? Stilled by the same person? As already explained, there is no reasonable risk of anyone else interfering, therefore she cannot be considered stupid for not guarding against only the unreasonable risks. There's a greater risk of Elayne being turned to the Shadow - all that would require is a really persuasive argument. I don't know whether the prisoner could be persuasive enough, but it's more likely than a bunch of Kin being murdered or one of the Chosen showing up at the exact same time.

 

It was an idea that would have been great had she taken the time to plan. Rather than make and hold the gateway herself, she should have gotten one of the Kin to hold it. She could have make wards to be tripped in the event of any problems so that her guards would know to come in or she could have been warned to leave through the gateway. Or had guards come through the gateway to protect her if needed. She rushed into this so fast she almost went in claiming to be a Forsaken while wearing pink slippers!!! For this to even be called a plan there would have had to of been some checking of details and considering what might go wrong. Elayne did neither; she proved once again that she is an irresponsible, inconsiderate child.

What difference would a Kin held Gateway have made? Or wards, considering how spectacularly unlikely it was she would be interrupted in the manner she was? Guards would have given the game away - and they would have gotten killed if the prisoner did escape the shield. And who says the Chosen can't wear pink slippers? Evil people can still wear pink. Checking of details? They were, as the pink slippers were caught. Considering what might go wrong? Well, all reasonable problems seem to have been accounted for, given that the only fallback people seem to have is "what if there was a jailbreak at the exact same time she was in there", which is such a huge problem that had she arrived minutes earlier or later she would have been completely safe. There is a tiny, tiny risk of her being in there when it happens.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Lemme see if I've got this -

 

Are people actually contending that before Elayne does anything she should first have a knock-down, drag-out with her Warder and her midwife?

 

Of course Birgitte would think it was a bad idea. Elayne is pregnant. Birgitte ( and everybody else in that palace ) thinks it's a bad idea if Elayne gets out of bed.

 

Is Elayne supposed to spend the rest of the series letting herself be governed by everybody else's fears? Even in pink slippers, she could trip and fall. The next person though the door could be a grey man, or a gholam. Heck she could choke on that gawdawful warm milk.

 

I know, let's wrap her in a rug, put her in a windowless room, put guards on the door - lots and lots of guards - and deny her food or drink. That'll keep her safe!

 

Sorry guys, but all the bleating about how dumb or thoughtless or whatever she is doesn't hold water.

 

Now, if somebody wants to kvetch about how dumb it is to keep any of the BA alive, at all, ever, I might agree...

[AutomatedTeller]

I don't think anyone is thinking that she has to fight with Birgitte and her midwife all the time.

 

Running risks when it has to be run and you are the only one who can do it? Necessary.

 

Runnings risks, no matter how slight, when there's no need and there are others who can do it? not smart. Doing it when you know your head of security would object, but is conveniently not there? Childish.

 

Why not have one of the Kin do it? I dont' even know that Birgitte would object to the plan to question them that way, but I'm sure she would have had more guards in the area.

[putts]

I keep hearing people complain about Elayne in this book. I am forced to assume that this comes from the PoV of people who have not been around a woman for an entire pregnancy. Emotions come, go and fly around all over the place. The only thing you know is that you know nothing and you had better get used to it. While I found her ranging from whimsical to dangerous to thoughtful sometimes hard to understand ... it was good to see real life blended into the story in front of my eyes.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't think anyone is thinking that she has to fight with Birgitte and her midwife all the time.

 

Running risks when it has to be run and you are the only one who can do it? Necessary.

 

Runnings risks, no matter how slight, when there's no need and there are others who can do it? not smart. Doing it when you know your head of security would object, but is conveniently not there? Childish.

 

Why not have one of the Kin do it? I dont' even know that Birgitte would object to the plan to question them that way, but I'm sure she would have had more guards in the area.

 

OK. So, who's this infallible source of all knowledge? Who is it that knows precisely when a risk has to be run? Who is it who knows when Elayne is the only one who can take that chance? Who is it that infallibly judges that this was something one of the Kin could handle?

 

What is Elayne going to do that her head of security won't object to? Take a bath? She could have a spasm and drown. There simply is nothing that Elayne can do that Birgitte won't find fault with. That's her job. Warder/Security Chief has a job description of being a professional paranoiac. The job is to take precautions against everything. Whether it's likely or not. Whether it's even possible or not.

 

Nothing she can possibly do is safe anymore. If this truly is The Last Battle, safe doesn't exist anymore. It's down to Do or Die.

[LazyMonk]

It's weird there's no mention of Sylvase after we discover her man is a DF. I would have expected Elayne to race upstairs and bite her head off.

[Charlz Guybon]

I dont know, who knows whats all with the trollocs. I think the first thing the trollocs are going to go for is the castle, they should have intell on the new weaponry.

 

I think we will see our first important darkfriend uprising in the series

 

imo Caemlyn gets destroyed

 

Agreed. We need serious devastation to make it seem like the Last Battle. The Trolloc Wars began with the razing of one of the largest and most important cities in the world; it is befitting that the Last Battle begin with the destruction of another major capital, especially one around which so much of the story has revolved so far. (Well, I suppose Maradon was destroyed first, but Caemlyn is a much more important city than Maradon, and some of Maradon was saved.)

Maradon is the capital, largest city and lynchpin of the defense of the most powerful borderland. It's every bit as important as Caemlyn on the world stage.

[Durinax]

maradon was salvaged enough, and since there is a strong choke point outside of maradon so the city doesnt matter much.

 

Kandor is the lynch pin since it was weaker link in the chain. with kandor fallen it opens up the possibility for flanking actions