Elayne's Arc

[babuada]

i would assume that this is due to oversight during the writing process, or at any rate, it isn't important enough for us to think about. but if we were to read into it, i would say it is because Egwene grew up with Nyn as someone superior to her/an authority figure in her life. Hence, she overcompensates to assert herself, as in a power struggle. Elayne was not Egwene's superior (yes, she was a princess, but that is immaterial here), and never exercised any authority over Egwene, so on a subconscious level, does not pose as much of a threat to her power.

Agree. Just petty power politics

[Mr Ares]

You are correct: Perrin's children will have no claim to the TR, they will only be its stewards. Rand's children (specifically, his children with Elayne) will be the next rulers of the TR.

Are you sure about that? Elayne's children, especially if one or both are girls would become the Daughter Heir of Andor like they've always had. I'm of the opinion that one will be a boy and one will be a girl. So they'll be Daughter Heir and First Prince of the Sword as has been tradition in Andor/Caemlyn for a long time..

 

Perrin and his chilren would be the major land owners in the Two Rivers so they would take his place, imo.

Perrin's children will be Stewards of the TR, not its lords. If Rand never returns to take up his seat Perrin will rule unopposed, and so will his heirs, but they will do so as stewards, not lords. Much like Gondor before Aragorn, now that I think about it.

 

You can make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes nothing to the Two Rivers, and that she has no claim to the Two Rivers.

 

You can make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes somthing to the Two Rivers, and that she has a claim to the Two Rivers.

 

You cannot make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes nothing to the Two Rivers, and that she has a claim to the Two Rivers.

 

It isn't complicated. There are mutual obligations. Since the Andoran throne has not provide protection and other services to the Two Rivers, it has abrogated its claim to the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

No, since the TR people failed to pay taxes to the Andoran throne, they forfeited their right to protection from the Andoran throne. Given the Andoran throne was not under any obligation to protect them, it did not fail in its obligations. That does not change her legal claim to the TR.

in situations where there is no governance or control by a central authority over a region for a length of time, it remains a part of that nation/empire only on paper.

And thus there is still a legal claim. Andor is the de jure authority in the TR, but not de facto.

 

 

It isn't complicated. There are mutual obligations. Since the Andoran throne has not provide protection and other services to the Two Rivers, it has abrogated its claim to the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

 

No, since the TR people failed to pay taxes to the Andoran throne, they forfeited their right to protection from the Andoran throne. Given the Andoran throne was not under any obligation to protect them, it did not fail in its obligations. That does not change her legal claim to the TR.

 

So the correct behaviour is "If you don´t pay me, i will leave you for the Trollocs"

It's a perfectly valid stance, yes. Morally objectionable, perhaps, but that isn't at issue really. There is no obligation to help them, and they didn't know they needed help.

 

Don´t the Seanchan have a valid claim to the whole of Randland too then? I saw you say somewhere that there is a difference between 200 and a 1000 years. To be honest, i see those as the kind of numbers where in matters such as these, there is no difference.

200 years ago is still within living memory for some people. 1,000 years isn't. No other states were claiming the TR, it was simply four villages (or three and one town, depending on the size of Taren Ferry) and a bunch of farms, no central authority. Other states were claiming the lands formerly held by the Seanchan Empire, and they failed to press their claim. Therefore there are distinct differences between the two situations. Of course, inter arma enim silent leges (in times of conflict the law falls silent). The legal authority of Andor over the TR has been accepted, even if only on paper, but the legal claim to the Seanchan is vigourously opposed. If they can conquer it it's theirs, if they can't it isn't.

 

 

I could make another list of pros and cons for Elayne, but it seems like everyone else has already done a good job of that. I liked her earlier in the series and then got more and more aggravated with her as she became more sexist and more cocky, but the thing that actually makes me dislike her is her actions as queen. She's clever(not as clever as she thinks though), and that's good to a degree, but Andor isn't supposed to be about politics and plots. It's supposed to be about honor and loyalty, but she isn't being honorable or loyal to her people at all. I good write pages and pages about this because it just drives me crazy, but I have one main questions(sorry if this was already explained):

 

1. She makes the agreement with Perrin that he will be the Steward of the Two Rivers, but that it will be Rand's territory. This is explained away as the only reasonable way that she can give the territory to Perrin. Then they discussed the issue of having children who have claims to both the Two Rivers and Saldeae and they solve this problem pretty well IMO. My question is: Does anyone else think that Elayne may have made the deal in a way that Rand actually owns the territory so that her children will have claim to it over Perrin's?

You are correct: Perrin's children will have no claim to the TR, they will only be its stewards. Rand's children (specifically, his children with Elayne) will be the next rulers of the TR.

If this is the case, which i believe it is, then I will be even more infuriated by Elayne because this is the exact thing that I don't think Andor is about and is another example of how she isn't honorable or loyal to her people.

I'm not sure I follow you. How is she disloyal to the Andoran people? Where is she without honour?

The reason that I say this is not honorable is because she's using words and semantics to trick Perrin. Perrin has earned the right to lead his people and although I thought it would be fair if he raised Manetheren, at the same time i've always been a fan of Andor so I'm ok with the agreement they made. The reason I say that she's tricking him is because she is essentially going to take away what he earned(what she seems to think she's giving him). She could not and would not do this to any of the major houses, but she's doing it to him and I just don't think it's right. Andor is supposed to be true and honorable and the honorable thing for Elayne to do would be to say that you've done a great job in the TR Perrin and I'd like for you to lead that part of the country. Instead she's trying to pull some back-handed cairhien stuff and that's not what andor is supposed to be about. In Cairhien you plot and scheme and trick people to earn your power, in Andor you work hard, do your job, and earn your position the honorable way. Anyways, that's just how I used to feel about Andor, Elayne is kinda taking that away now.

I don't think she's tricking Perrin, so much as bending over backwards to find a compromise that works for both of them. If she makes him a lord, it sends a message saying you can get made a lord by rebelling. An encouragement to rebel. She said to Perrin he had put her in a terrible predicament, and she found a way out of it, that would not involve needless bloodshed. I would call that honourable. She was clear, upfront and forthright. Blunt, even (which makes her fine in my book), but not at all Cairhienin in her manner. She wouldn't do that to a major house, true, but that's because they weren't trying to get titles by rebelling (well, those who did ended up with new lands in Cairhien). Perrin wasn't either, but that is how it would appear. Elayne was politically savvy enough to come up with a good solution, one that satisfies everyone - had she simply made Perrin a lord, it would have caused all manner of trouble for her.

 

 

Actually she can't take away anything if Rand says so.If there was a single heir to the DR then MAYBE but he's gonna leave three different bloodlines so the chances of her children or herself ruling there are slim to say the least.Plus, Rand could always step down,which means that neither she or her children will come to rule anywhere near TR.

Well, usually in matter of primogeniture who is born first is important - Elayne is pregnant, Avi isn't, Min isn't. If Elayne has anything other than two sons, she secures the succession of both Andor and the TR (two daughters gives her a Daughter-heir and a High Lady of the TR, while a son and a daughter gives her a Daughter-Heir and a First Prince of the Sword/High Lord of the TR, while two sons just gives her a First Prince and a High Lord). And if Rand abdicates, then the lordship passes to the next in line - who is currently in Elayne's uterus. Unless he disinherits his heirs (he'd have to be a bit of a prick to do that), in which case the lands default back to the Crown, and Elayne chooses a new ruler. But Perrin remains Steward, however you slice it.

 

It isn't complicated. There are mutual obligations. Since the Andoran throne has not provide protection and other services to the Two Rivers, it has abrogated its claim to the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

 

No, since the TR people failed to pay taxes to the Andoran throne, they forfeited their right to protection from the Andoran throne. Given the Andoran throne was not under any obligation to protect them, it did not fail in its obligations. That does not change her legal claim to the TR.

 

So the correct behaviour is "If you don´t pay me, i will leave you for the Trollocs" and just bitch and moan about how people are taking away toys i never play with anyway? In contrast to Perrin saving whitecloaks who are looking to kill him.

 

 

 

It's actually a valid point. If you don't recognize someone as your King or Queen (which includes things like paying taxes), you have no moral right to expect any protection from them. You can't say "I hate you, go away", and then when trouble comes beg for them to come riding in on a white stallion.

No it's not.If TR declined to pay taxes it WOULD have been but that's not even remotely implied.Andor failed to collect taxes , which is another point against it, not for it.

It is stated that if Andor had sent tax collectors, they probably would have been thrown out.

 

 

Mr Ares, you asked where Elayne had showed remarkably little sense, saying none had demonstrated to you this aspect of Elayne's persona.

No, I asked about her displaying a lack of sense in this book - particularly the BA incident, where she took all possible precautions and was the victim of bad luck. She has made stupid decisions in the past, but not in this book.

 

Mr Ares, Elayne's annexation of Carhein was awfully dumb as well. Consider the situation YOU raise. Had a US President been able to annex Canada with a speech and a song, he would have been immediately bogged down in the minutae of governance that the feat would require. How would Canada's government mesh with US style government?

It wouldn't. They would remain two separate countries. And the President/PM could easily appoint a deputy to runthings in one country while he deals with the other - much as Elayne could nominate a steward. Bear in mind that Rand is ruler of both Tear and Illian (King of Illian, and the King of Tear is the Dragon's Steward as well). Thus dealing with the invasion is not made harder by taking this step. So it is in Andor and Cairhien. It might be that in the fulness of time, they will end up as a single country (as with England and Scotland) or it might be they will break apart as two countries (as with Britain and Hanover - different succession laws meant we got a Queen and they got a King).

And yes, she DID take soldiers with her when she assumed her new throne.

She took and honour guard, not an army. Only a hundred men and women.

 

And sense would have told Elayne that the invasion would be, not in some rural area or town like Baerlon, but in the major capital, as she did have some knowledge of how the Dark One operates.

No, sense would tell her that while Caemlyn might be a target, the enemy will have to pass through other parts of the country to get there. She strengthened border defences to deal with the problem. After all, how are they to get to Caemlyn? Rand had dealt with the Waygate, supposedly.

As examples of the Shadows methodology, the invasion of the Two Rivers at the start of the series was targeted to kill Rand, Mat and Perrin, and the later invasion as well was specifically targeted to draw Rand's eye. Darkfriends 20 years prior to Eye of the World were killing ANY lad who showed he MAY channel, not just random men.

Ishamael wanted the Dragon alive - the killings of male channelers prior to the start of the series were halted by Ishamael. He exceuted the head of the BA over that incident. No, they wanted to subvert the Dragon, turn him to the Shadow, or drive him into serving the Shadow's goals. Killing him was a last resort, from Ishy's perspective. Rahvin wanted to rule in Andor, same with Sammael in Illian and Be'lal in Tear. The Shadow went into the TR in TSR to kill Fain, it was Fain and the Whitecloaks who were there to draw Rand's attention - Slayer mentions that he is there to kill the renegade.

 

That he is necessary for the universe's continued survival does not give him carte blanche to violate laws as he sees fit without having to face the consequences.

Actually, it sure as hell does.

I disagree, the good he does does not cancel out the bad. Of ocurse, this is a moot point because despite Elayne's rather blunt opening salvo, she had thought to herself earlier that "of course, she wasn't going to do that." She never had any intention of executing him.

[anotherfingolfin]

The socio-political set up of Randland seems to be in the murky period between kingdoms and nationalism. If one were to apply the standards used pre-nationalism, then Andor's inability/diseagerness to exert influence over TR, over generations, renders that region effectively independent. If we use the yardstick of nationalism, then the TR people do not consider themselves Andoran, and seem to be a distinctive enough, culturally (by Randland standards) and geographically, to be a different nation of people.

 

in situations where there is no governance or control by a central authority over a region for a length of time, it remains a part of that nation/empire only on paper.

And thus there is still a legal claim. Andor is the de jure authority in the TR, but not de facto.

 

Mr. Ares, your point seems to rest on the legal claim. By that measure, the Seanchan claim is also legal. There is nothing to suggest that a legal claim would lapse after a specific period. While i agree that the Andoran claim is probably morally stronger to that of the Seanchan, it is still not so by much. Legally, not at all.

 

Don´t the Seanchan have a valid claim to the whole of Randland too then? I saw you say somewhere that there is a difference between 200 and a 1000 years. To be honest, i see those as the kind of numbers where in matters such as these, there is no difference.

200 years ago is still within living memory for some people. 1,000 years isn't. No other states were claiming the TR, it was simply four villages (or three and one town, depending on the size of Taren Ferry) and a bunch of farms, no central authority. Other states were claiming the lands formerly held by the Seanchan Empire, and they failed to press their claim. Therefore there are distinct differences between the two situations. Of course, inter arma enim silent leges (in times of conflict the law falls silent). The legal authority of Andor over the TR has been accepted, even if only on paper, but the legal claim to the Seanchan is vigourously opposed. If they can conquer it it's theirs, if they can't it isn't.

 

Once again, if you say it is about legality, not morality, then the argument about the difference between 2 centuries and 10, is somewhat weakened. Also, if we were to go by the living memory, argument- who's memory? Because someone, somewhere is alive that remembers a time in which, in one part of the world, a certain throne controlled a certain area, does not really make things more legally sound. The lifetime of some chaneller. Not that of any member of the Andoran establishment, and not of any TR denizen.

I do not really want to open a real-world political can of worms here, but I am just SO curious. Mr. Ares, with regards to your living memory arguments; would you also then agree that the state of Israel had no claim over the land it now controls, at the time of its establishment? I ask this only to better understand the consistency of your logic.

[waffle]

Don´t the Seanchan have a valid claim to the whole of Randland too then? I saw you say somewhere that there is a difference between 200 and a 1000 years. To be honest, i see those as the kind of numbers where in matters such as these, there is no difference.

 

200 years ago is still within living memory for some people. 1,000 years isn't. No other states were claiming the TR, it was simply four villages (or three and one town, depending on the size of Taren Ferry) and a bunch of farms, no central authority. Other states were claiming the lands formerly held by the Seanchan Empire, and they failed to press their claim. Therefore there are distinct differences between the two situations. Of course, inter arma enim silent leges (in times of conflict the law falls silent). The legal authority of Andor over the TR has been accepted, even if only on paper, but the legal claim to the Seanchan is vigourously opposed. If they can conquer it it's theirs, if they can't it isn't.

 

It´s within living memory of some sisters who are usually secluded in their Tower. What do they have to with anything?

 

The legal authority over the TR has been accepted? Huh? By whom? Did i miss something in the books somewhere? Even if it was accepted, it looks to me that at some point Andor stopped caring about TR and providing them with any benefits that come from being in a nation/country. TR stopped paying taxes. So as i see it, the agreement was cancelled.

 

And it does look to me that Andors claim is being retty vigurously opposed as well.

 

"If they can conquer it it's theirs, if they can't it isn't." So after arguing that Andor has legal rights we come to the marrow of it. Perrin as good as conuered it. It´s his.

[David Selig]

Oh boy, there's a lot to be said for Elayne in the book. But one thing that really struck me was some inconsistencies in reference to Egwene. Egwene called Nynaeve to account in the world of dreams about showing her respect as Amyrlin; it needed to be done. Elayne saw the immediate aftermath of that upbraiding. Yet there was no similar conversation that we saw between Egwene and Elayne. Later on (I assume anyway with the passage of time vs. plots being so screwy in this book and I'm still trying to figure it out,) we see Elayne meeting with Alyse and Sumeko about the Kin's future, and many times Elayne refers to Egwene simply as "Egwene." It just strikes me as odd that there is that familiarity when some important business is being discussed.

Actually the conversation between Elayne and the Kin happened much earlier in the chronology.

It could be an oversight by the author, or maybe Elayne used Egwene's name to remind the Kin that the Amyrlin is a close personal friend of her thus more likely to OK any agreement she has with the Kin.

 

Mr Ares, Elayne's annexation of Carhein was awfully dumb as well. Consider the situation YOU raise. Had a US President been able to annex Canada with a speech and a song, he would have been immediately bogged down in the minutae of governance that the feat would require. How would Canada's government mesh with US style government?

This is a wrong comparison. Cairhien was not annexed, it remains a separate country, with its own nobles, laws and all, which would just share a monarch with Andor. And feudal type of government is completely different from the one in a modern democracy. Since the Cairhien nobles remained in their places, nothing much changed and there's no need for an overhaul of the administration.

 

How about her "Hey...I wanna go after the Black Ajah TO! Dont leave ME out" scene that she did in The Great Hunt. She was the DAUGHTER HEIR. Her place was to be in the Tower, NOT risking her own life gallivanting around Randland, placing her nation at risk of a Succession War had she dropped dead. The fact that she likely would have died had she remained in the Tower is irrelevant to the FACT that she abandoned her NATION to go Black Ajah hunting. In that, I could also believe the poster who said she was disloyal to her nation.

Min, the woman with the viewings who's always right, told her she has to come, that she's a part of all this as much the Emond Field guys and girls, and it will be much more dangerous for her if she stays in the Tower. I'd say that's a pretty good reason to go.

[Durinax]

How about her "Hey...I wanna go after the Black Ajah TO! Dont leave ME out" scene that she did in The Great Hunt. She was the DAUGHTER HEIR. Her place was to be in the Tower, NOT risking her own life gallivanting around Randland, placing her nation at risk of a Succession War had she dropped dead. The fact that she likely would have died had she remained in the Tower is irrelevant to the FACT that she abandoned her NATION to go Black Ajah hunting. In that, I could also believe the poster who said she was disloyal to her nation.

Min, the woman with the viewings who's always right, told her she has to come, that she's a part of all this as much the Emond Field guys and girls, and it will be much more dangerous for her if she stays in the Tower. I'd say that's a pretty good reason to go.

you have to remember that she was a very young and immature woman, and who wouldnt want to go off with friends (quite possibly her only friends) rather than sit there and wait for something terrible to happen

[folkstyle]

I could make another list of pros and cons for Elayne, but it seems like everyone else has already done a good job of that. I liked her earlier in the series and then got more and more aggravated with her as she became more sexist and more cocky, but the thing that actually makes me dislike her is her actions as queen. She's clever(not as clever as she thinks though), and that's good to a degree, but Andor isn't supposed to be about politics and plots. It's supposed to be about honor and loyalty, but she isn't being honorable or loyal to her people at all. I good write pages and pages about this because it just drives me crazy, but I have one main questions(sorry if this was already explained):

 

1. She makes the agreement with Perrin that he will be the Steward of the Two Rivers, but that it will be Rand's territory. This is explained away as the only reasonable way that she can give the territory to Perrin. Then they discussed the issue of having children who have claims to both the Two Rivers and Saldeae and they solve this problem pretty well IMO. My question is: Does anyone else think that Elayne may have made the deal in a way that Rand actually owns the territory so that her children will have claim to it over Perrin's?

You are correct: Perrin's children will have no claim to the TR, they will only be its stewards. Rand's children (specifically, his children with Elayne) will be the next rulers of the TR.

If this is the case, which i believe it is, then I will be even more infuriated by Elayne because this is the exact thing that I don't think Andor is about and is another example of how she isn't honorable or loyal to her people.

I'm not sure I follow you. How is she disloyal to the Andoran people? Where is she without honour?

The reason that I say this is not honorable is because she's using words and semantics to trick Perrin. Perrin has earned the right to lead his people and although I thought it would be fair if he raised Manetheren, at the same time i've always been a fan of Andor so I'm ok with the agreement they made. The reason I say that she's tricking him is because she is essentially going to take away what he earned(what she seems to think she's giving him). She could not and would not do this to any of the major houses, but she's doing it to him and I just don't think it's right. Andor is supposed to be true and honorable and the honorable thing for Elayne to do would be to say that you've done a great job in the TR Perrin and I'd like for you to lead that part of the country. Instead she's trying to pull some back-handed cairhien stuff and that's not what andor is supposed to be about. In Cairhien you plot and scheme and trick people to earn your power, in Andor you work hard, do your job, and earn your position the honorable way. Anyways, that's just how I used to feel about Andor, Elayne is kinda taking that away now.

I don't think she's tricking Perrin, so much as bending over backwards to find a compromise that works for both of them. If she makes him a lord, it sends a message saying you can get made a lord by rebelling. An encouragement to rebel. She said to Perrin he had put her in a terrible predicament, and she found a way out of it, that would not involve needless bloodshed. I would call that honourable. She was clear, upfront and forthright. Blunt, even (which makes her fine in my book), but not at all Cairhienin in her manner. She wouldn't do that to a major house, true, but that's because they weren't trying to get titles by rebelling (well, those who did ended up with new lands in Cairhien). Perrin wasn't either, but that is how it would appear. Elayne was politically savvy enough to come up with a good solution, one that satisfies everyone - had she simply made Perrin a lord, it would have caused all manner of trouble for her.

I don't see how you can say she's bending over backwards to find a solution for both of them because it's her and her family's fault that the TR isn't really a part of Andor anyways. If they had simply done there jobs as rulers then this wouldn't even be a question, but they didn't and it's because they didn't see the TR as worth anything. Now that it is worth something they want it. Well you know what, I think that's bull! They're your people or they're not. You don't get to choose based on how profitable it is. And anyone who says that "the TR people would just kick the tax collects out" is ridiculous because if the queen had sent guards with the tax collectors(which was common in feudal times) that never would have happened and again we would never be in this situation. Honestly I think Elayne is just lucky that Perrin doesn't want to raise Manetheren because I don't think she could stop him if she wanted. IMO there is no way she could take the TR back if Perrin had chosen to just say "screw you, they're my people". She's lucky he IS honorable and didn't want to do this. She should treat him with respect he deserves.

[babuada]

She should treat him with respect he deserves.

She did not learn humility the way she learnt Des Demar. It was her upbringing at fault. But she is learning gradually. She said THANKS and SORRY to Mat. I still have hopes for her. She will come around, with Rand's help.

[Durinax]

I like how everyone is making a big deal about her saying thank you to mat in this book. She did the same thing back in ebou dar, about the stone of tear thing.

[Graveyardhag]

@ Lan ni Aybara al'Thor

What do you mean it's her and her family's fault that the Two Rivers was left alone? That is complete and utter nonsense.

The rulers in Elayne's family (house Trakand) were her mother, and herself, neither one of them were the reason for the lack of governmental presence in the Two Rivers. Obviously Morgase could have done something, and, just as obviously didn't. That doesn't make the situation her fault.

Elayne only won the throne a few weeks back from this book. (I think, correct me if i'm wrong?) She is still trying to deal with all the repercussions of winning that. She did find the time to send someone out there, and that somone was sent away. What more exactly are you expecting from the queen who only JUST got the throne? And why on earth are you blaming her for something that went wrong hundreds of years in the past?

 

Quite alot of you are putting the image across that you really do blame Elayne for the fact the Two Rivers was Andoran in name only. I know it's hard to put the right tone across in a forum post, So I might have some of you wrong there. For those that do think like that. You are wrong. You cant blame an 18 year old girl for stuff that happened so long ago the people in the Two Rivers don't even know about it until they leave the place.

[randsc]

Neither Elayne nor Morgase can be blamed for Andor's loosing track of the Two Rivers.

 

But Andor abdicated its' responsibilities, and therefore its' claims, long ago.

 

If Elayne were dealing with someone who actually wanted to be King, she would be in some trouble.

[Crael123]

She should treat him with respect he deserves.

She did not learn humility the way she learnt Des Demar. It was her upbringing at fault. But she is learning gradually. She said THANKS and SORRY to Mat. I still have hopes for her. She will come around, with Rand's help.

 

I agree with this. I used to hate hate hate her with a passion and now I actually like and respect her. the same can not be said for Egwene though.

[f3llyn]

She should treat him with respect he deserves.

She did not learn humility the way she learnt Des Demar. It was her upbringing at fault. But she is learning gradually. She said THANKS and SORRY to Mat. I still have hopes for her. She will come around, with Rand's help.

 

I agree with this. I used to hate hate hate her with a passion and now I actually like and respect her. the same can not be said for Egwene though.

No problems with Elayne for me. She's one of the more likable characters imo. But that still doesn't change the fact that her chapters are generally the more boring ones, despite a few amusing moments here and there.

 

All that politicking. Yuck.

[folkstyle]

@ Lan ni Aybara al'Thor

What do you mean it's her and her family's fault that the Two Rivers was left alone? That is complete and utter nonsense.

The rulers in Elayne's family (house Trakand) were her mother, and herself, neither one of them were the reason for the lack of governmental presence in the Two Rivers. Obviously Morgase could have done something, and, just as obviously didn't. That doesn't make the situation her fault.

Elayne only won the throne a few weeks back from this book. (I think, correct me if i'm wrong?) She is still trying to deal with all the repercussions of winning that. She did find the time to send someone out there, and that somone was sent away. What more exactly are you expecting from the queen who only JUST got the throne? And why on earth are you blaming her for something that went wrong hundreds of years in the past?

 

Quite alot of you are putting the image across that you really do blame Elayne for the fact the Two Rivers was Andoran in name only. I know it's hard to put the right tone across in a forum post, So I might have some of you wrong there. For those that do think like that. You are wrong. You cant blame an 18 year old girl for stuff that happened so long ago the people in the Two Rivers don't even know about it until they leave the place.

 

It was inaccurate of me to say that it is specifically Elayne and her family's fault for the loss of government in the TR. What I meant and should have said was that her family has ruled for long enough to take them back in under andor control and although she has not had enough time personally(and i understand this) she has been aware of the situation in the TR. If all she did was send tax collectors and no one else, no guards, no diplomats. No one to talk to them and explain what she wants and what's going on. I think that's a pretty queen move for a queen to take to get control of "her" territory where she knows they don't recognize the Andor government, and where the population is booming. The only reason she even cares about the TR now is because it's becoming one of the most prosperous places in Andor. On that note, it would have been simple for her to make Perrin a high lord and explain that the TR has not had a high lord yet because it hasn't been big enough, but now it is. There's a simple and fair solution that would have shown Perrin the respect he deserves and been a good enough reason to explain making him a high lord. That way the other lords couldn't say that you can become a lord by rebelling.

 

When you get down to it, she should be thankful that Perrin didn't just say the TR is his now and she can come and try to get it, because she would never be able to take it back. With the new population and cultural boost in the TR and the advantageous geographical location, she would never be able to take the TR back. And the line about killing him right there is ridiculous considering he had an asha'man right outside. Unless she had every kin in the city waiting behind the door, she'd have no chance. I'm really starting to wonder how powerful Grady and Neald are getting!

 

Anyways, I don't want to sound like a total Elayne hater. In fact, I like Elayne(most of the time). I just wish there was a place for honor, loyalty, and hard work and I always thought that place was Andor. That's why I'm so upset about the way Perrin was treated and annoyed at the way Elayne acted toward him.

[waffle]

I like how everyone is making a big deal about her saying thank you to mat in this book. She did the same thing back in ebou dar, about the stone of tear thing.

 

I always got the feeling that she didn´t really mean it back then. She was kinda peer-pressured into it. Only after Mat chased off the gholam did she give a sincere thank you.

 

PS: "that oval cut-out did interesting things"- one of the best lines in wot.

[Graveyardhag]

@ Lan ni Aybara al'Thor

What do you mean it's her and her family's fault that the Two Rivers was left alone? That is complete and utter nonsense.

The rulers in Elayne's family (house Trakand) were her mother, and herself, neither one of them were the reason for the lack of governmental presence in the Two Rivers. Obviously Morgase could have done something, and, just as obviously didn't. That doesn't make the situation her fault.

Elayne only won the throne a few weeks back from this book. (I think, correct me if i'm wrong?) She is still trying to deal with all the repercussions of winning that. She did find the time to send someone out there, and that somone was sent away. What more exactly are you expecting from the queen who only JUST got the throne? And why on earth are you blaming her for something that went wrong hundreds of years in the past?

 

Quite alot of you are putting the image across that you really do blame Elayne for the fact the Two Rivers was Andoran in name only. I know it's hard to put the right tone across in a forum post, So I might have some of you wrong there. For those that do think like that. You are wrong. You cant blame an 18 year old girl for stuff that happened so long ago the people in the Two Rivers don't even know about it until they leave the place.

 

It was inaccurate of me to say that it is specifically Elayne and her family's fault for the loss of government in the TR. What I meant and should have said was that her family has ruled for long enough to take them back in under andor control and although she has not had enough time personally(and i understand this) she has been aware of the situation in the TR. If all she did was send tax collectors and no one else, no guards, no diplomats. No one to talk to them and explain what she wants and what's going on. I think that's a pretty queen move for a queen to take to get control of "her" territory where she knows they don't recognize the Andor government, and where the population is booming. The only reason she even cares about the TR now is because it's becoming one of the most prosperous places in Andor. On that note, it would have been simple for her to make Perrin a high lord and explain that the TR has not had a high lord yet because it hasn't been big enough, but now it is. There's a simple and fair solution that would have shown Perrin the respect he deserves and been a good enough reason to explain making him a high lord. That way the other lords couldn't say that you can become a lord by rebelling.

 

When you get down to it, she should be thankful that Perrin didn't just say the TR is his now and she can come and try to get it, because she would never be able to take it back. With the new population and cultural boost in the TR and the advantageous geographical location, she would never be able to take the TR back. And the line about killing him right there is ridiculous considering he had an asha'man right outside. Unless she had every kin in the city waiting behind the door, she'd have no chance. I'm really starting to wonder how powerful Grady and Neald are getting!

 

Anyways, I don't want to sound like a total Elayne hater. In fact, I like Elayne(most of the time). I just wish there was a place for honor, loyalty, and hard work and I always thought that place was Andor. That's why I'm so upset about the way Perrin was treated and annoyed at the way Elayne acted toward him.

 

As I said earlier in this thread, the threat of execution was just an empty threat. Political manouvering. Two chapters earlier she says she wouldn't do it.

I also feel I have to point out that she only has reports of whats happening in the Two Rivers, not actuall facts.

 

Also, (I just checked) the text says she sent envoys to the Two Rivers, which have all been turned away, with the residents of the Two Rivers saying they refused to pay taxes. This doesn't actually mean she only sent tax collectors, just that the Two Rivers people said they wouldn't pay any taxes to the throne.

 

Morgase tells her that fighting with Perrin would not be a good thing. And that if she pushed it she wouldn't win. Thats when she says to herslf that of course she wouldn't kill him. I'd imagine there was more talk offscreen on the subject as well.

 

I don't know that it would be that simple to just name Perrin a high lord. It's pretty much as she says, if one man from part of the realm rebels and she just names him a lord, people can and will get it into their heads that they can do it too. Especially considering she has 3 rebels (rivals? however you call them anyway) locked away, plus several of her supporters aren't well behind her. She really does need to find a way to do it without encouraging others to rise against her. Also, there would be like, ALL of her nobles wanting to know why they weren't named the high lord.

In making it look like it's all going through Rand, she removes that pressure off herself, gains a newly powerful province back under Andoran rule, Without having to use any of her army to do so. Plus she gains the alliances Perrin brings with him. She avoids a lot of bloodshed doing it this way.

 

It's my opinion she was aiming for something like this from the start. She knew Faile was a noble, has known since she first saw her, so with a noblewoman and another queen in the room she can't just smile and hand him whatever. She needs to be seen in a position of strength. Her questions where too pointed, and seemed to me to have been somewhat planned beforehand.

[David Selig]

If all she did was send tax collectors and no one else, no guards, no diplomats. No one to talk to them and explain what she wants and what's going on.

Elayne send envoys, not tax collectors. The word envoys implies they were sent to negotiate. But they were swiftly sent away by the locals who refused that. She was right not to send armed forces, since this would've most likely led to a war.

 

I think that's a pretty queen move for a queen to take to get control of "her" territory where she knows they don't recognize the Andor government, and where the population is booming. The only reason she even cares about the TR now is because it's becoming one of the most prosperous places in Andor. On that note, it would have been simple for her to make Perrin a high lord and explain that the TR has not had a high lord yet because it hasn't been big enough, but now it is.

But even with the population boom Two Rivers isn't anywhere populous enough to justify the High lord title. There were all of 4 villages there at the start of the series, with something like several thousand occupants in total. They were hit hard by the Trollocs invasion. IIRC even after the influx of refugees, Perrin had only been able to collect something like 3000 - 4000 Two Rivers men for his army which Tam al'Thor led to join him back in KoD. On the other hand, each of the 19 Andoran High Seats are able to call to arms around 10 000 trained men.

 

And the line about killing him right there is ridiculous considering he had an asha'man right outside. Unless she had every kin in the city waiting behind the door, she'd have no chance. I'm really starting to wonder how powerful Grady and Neald are getting!

Where do you get that from? Elayne herself is really strong in the Power, strongest Aes Sedai in 1000 years (except Nynaeve) she wouldn't need help to beat a run of the mill Asha'man. Unless it's mentioned somewhere that Grady is exceptionally strong, but I don't recall this.

[Mr Ares]

The socio-political set up of Randland seems to be in the murky period between kingdoms and nationalism. If one were to apply the standards used pre-nationalism, then Andor's inability/diseagerness to exert influence over TR, over generations, renders that region effectively independent. If we use the yardstick of nationalism, then the TR people do not consider themselves Andoran, and seem to be a distinctive enough, culturally (by Randland standards) and geographically, to be a different nation of people.

 

in situations where there is no governance or control by a central authority over a region for a length of time, it remains a part of that nation/empire only on paper.

And thus there is still a legal claim. Andor is the de jure authority in the TR, but not de facto.

 

Mr. Ares, your point seems to rest on the legal claim. By that measure, the Seanchan claim is also legal. There is nothing to suggest that a legal claim would lapse after a specific period. While i agree that the Andoran claim is probably morally stronger to that of the Seanchan, it is still not so by much. Legally, not at all.

Don´t the Seanchan have a valid claim to the whole of Randland too then? I saw you say somewhere that there is a difference between 200 and a 1000 years. To be honest, i see those as the kind of numbers where in matters such as these, there is no difference.

200 years ago is still within living memory for some people. 1,000 years isn't. No other states were claiming the TR, it was simply four villages (or three and one town, depending on the size of Taren Ferry) and a bunch of farms, no central authority. Other states were claiming the lands formerly held by the Seanchan Empire, and they failed to press their claim. Therefore there are distinct differences between the two situations. Of course, inter arma enim silent leges (in times of conflict the law falls silent). The legal authority of Andor over the TR has been accepted, even if only on paper, but the legal claim to the Seanchan is vigourously opposed. If they can conquer it it's theirs, if they can't it isn't.

 

Once again, if you say it is about legality, not morality, then the argument about the difference between 2 centuries and 10, is somewhat weakened. Also, if we were to go by the living memory, argument- who's memory? Because someone, somewhere is alive that remembers a time in which, in one part of the world, a certain throne controlled a certain area, does not really make things more legally sound. The lifetime of some chaneller. Not that of any member of the Andoran establishment, and not of any TR denizen.

I do not really want to open a real-world political can of worms here, but I am just SO curious. Mr. Ares, with regards to your living memory arguments; would you also then agree that the state of Israel had no claim over the land it now controls, at the time of its establishment? I ask this only to better understand the consistency of your logic.

Bear in mind that things like rights can lapse over time. And don't get too hung up on the within living memory thing, that's mostly to show that there is a difference, however slight, between 200 and 1,000 years other than one was longer ago than the other. And yes, my point is more about the legality of matters. I don't really see much of a moral argument either way. The difference between the Seanchan claim on the Westlands and the Andoran claim on the TR is thus: The Seanchan failed to press their claim, while others asserted their own claims over those regions. The Andorans didn't press their claim, but no-one asserted a rival claim over the region during the intervening period. Not the TR folks, nor any outsiders. Not before Perrin. The Seanchan claim is like someone saying "if you don't want it, I'll have it." and the owner not saying otherwise. The TR example is like the owner saying "this is still mine, you know" when someone else tries to take it. I'd rather not get into the tangle that is the Israeli/Palestinian conflict if it's all the same.

 

Don´t the Seanchan have a valid claim to the whole of Randland too then? I saw you say somewhere that there is a difference between 200 and a 1000 years. To be honest, i see those as the kind of numbers where in matters such as these, there is no difference.

 

200 years ago is still within living memory for some people. 1,000 years isn't. No other states were claiming the TR, it was simply four villages (or three and one town, depending on the size of Taren Ferry) and a bunch of farms, no central authority. Other states were claiming the lands formerly held by the Seanchan Empire, and they failed to press their claim. Therefore there are distinct differences between the two situations. Of course, inter arma enim silent leges (in times of conflict the law falls silent). The legal authority of Andor over the TR has been accepted, even if only on paper, but the legal claim to the Seanchan is vigourously opposed. If they can conquer it it's theirs, if they can't it isn't.

 

It´s within living memory of some sisters who are usually secluded in their Tower. What do they have to with anything?

 

The legal authority over the TR has been accepted? Huh? By whom? Did i miss something in the books somewhere?

Evidently. I suggest a re-read of Towers of Midnight, because in it Perrin accepts Elayne's authority over the TR, accepts the ligitimacy of their claim.

 

"If they can conquer it it's theirs, if they can't it isn't." So after arguing that Andor has legal rights we come to the marrow of it. Perrin as good as conuered it. It´s his.

Then he accepted the title of Steward, Rand as his High Lord, and Elayne as his Queen. So, no it isn't.

 

 

I could make another list of pros and cons for Elayne, but it seems like everyone else has already done a good job of that. I liked her earlier in the series and then got more and more aggravated with her as she became more sexist and more cocky, but the thing that actually makes me dislike her is her actions as queen. She's clever(not as clever as she thinks though), and that's good to a degree, but Andor isn't supposed to be about politics and plots. It's supposed to be about honor and loyalty, but she isn't being honorable or loyal to her people at all. I good write pages and pages about this because it just drives me crazy, but I have one main questions(sorry if this was already explained):

 

1. She makes the agreement with Perrin that he will be the Steward of the Two Rivers, but that it will be Rand's territory. This is explained away as the only reasonable way that she can give the territory to Perrin. Then they discussed the issue of having children who have claims to both the Two Rivers and Saldeae and they solve this problem pretty well IMO. My question is: Does anyone else think that Elayne may have made the deal in a way that Rand actually owns the territory so that her children will have claim to it over Perrin's?

You are correct: Perrin's children will have no claim to the TR, they will only be its stewards. Rand's children (specifically, his children with Elayne) will be the next rulers of the TR.

If this is the case, which i believe it is, then I will be even more infuriated by Elayne because this is the exact thing that I don't think Andor is about and is another example of how she isn't honorable or loyal to her people.

I'm not sure I follow you. How is she disloyal to the Andoran people? Where is she without honour?

The reason that I say this is not honorable is because she's using words and semantics to trick Perrin. Perrin has earned the right to lead his people and although I thought it would be fair if he raised Manetheren, at the same time i've always been a fan of Andor so I'm ok with the agreement they made. The reason I say that she's tricking him is because she is essentially going to take away what he earned(what she seems to think she's giving him). She could not and would not do this to any of the major houses, but she's doing it to him and I just don't think it's right. Andor is supposed to be true and honorable and the honorable thing for Elayne to do would be to say that you've done a great job in the TR Perrin and I'd like for you to lead that part of the country. Instead she's trying to pull some back-handed cairhien stuff and that's not what andor is supposed to be about. In Cairhien you plot and scheme and trick people to earn your power, in Andor you work hard, do your job, and earn your position the honorable way. Anyways, that's just how I used to feel about Andor, Elayne is kinda taking that away now.

I don't think she's tricking Perrin, so much as bending over backwards to find a compromise that works for both of them. If she makes him a lord, it sends a message saying you can get made a lord by rebelling. An encouragement to rebel. She said to Perrin he had put her in a terrible predicament, and she found a way out of it, that would not involve needless bloodshed. I would call that honourable. She was clear, upfront and forthright. Blunt, even (which makes her fine in my book), but not at all Cairhienin in her manner. She wouldn't do that to a major house, true, but that's because they weren't trying to get titles by rebelling (well, those who did ended up with new lands in Cairhien). Perrin wasn't either, but that is how it would appear. Elayne was politically savvy enough to come up with a good solution, one that satisfies everyone - had she simply made Perrin a lord, it would have caused all manner of trouble for her.

I don't see how you can say she's bending over backwards to find a solution for both of them because it's her and her family's fault that the TR isn't really a part of Andor anyways. If they had simply done there jobs as rulers then this wouldn't even be a question, but they didn't and it's because they didn't see the TR as worth anything. Now that it is worth something they want it. Well you know what, I think that's bull! They're your people or they're not. You don't get to choose based on how profitable it is. And anyone who says that "the TR people would just kick the tax collects out" is ridiculous because if the queen had sent guards with the tax collectors(which was common in feudal times) that never would have happened and again we would never be in this situation. Honestly I think Elayne is just lucky that Perrin doesn't want to raise Manetheren because I don't think she could stop him if she wanted. IMO there is no way she could take the TR back if Perrin had chosen to just say "screw you, they're my people". She's lucky he IS honorable and didn't want to do this. She should treat him with respect he deserves.

Andor didn't press its claim against the TR because they could hold either the mines in the Mountains of Mist or the TR, and they chose the mines for sound economic reasons. They turned their attention back their because it raised banners in rebellion - thus presenting a challenge to Andor's sovereignty over the land, something which had not previously been in dispute. She did treat him with the respect he deserves, but that doesn't mean he can go around spearheading rebellions without consequences. Much as he can't go around murdering Whitecloaks without having to face trial for it. Remember, for a good long while the TR benfited from free trade with the rest of Andor, so it's not at all as if they were denied all the benfits of being part of Andor. Also, while they might not have seen themselves as Andorans, they didn't actually do anythong to secede. Thus, they tacitly accepted the status quo, them being legally Andoran, for a long time.

 

 

The only reason she even cares about the TR now is because it's becoming one of the most prosperous places in Andor. On that note, it would have been simple for her to make Perrin a high lord and explain that the TR has not had a high lord yet because it hasn't been big enough, but now it is. There's a simple and fair solution that would have shown Perrin the respect he deserves and been a good enough reason to explain making him a high lord. That way the other lords couldn't say that you can become a lord by rebelling.

The TR was brought to Caemlyn's attention because they rebelled, not because they became prosperous. And there are other prosperous parts of Andor, without High Lords. I doubt the TR has a bigger economy than them. So that excuse would have fooled no-one, it would simply appear to be a flimsy cover for Perrin declaring himself a Lord and keeping the title because he had a big enough army, thus an inducement to rebellion. Making Perrin a Lord might be a simple move, but it has repercussions, repercussions that might negatively affect the TR, and would certainly negatively impact Caemlyn. Also, I'm not sure I would call rewarding Perrin for the good he did but not punishing him for the bad to be fair.

 

When you get down to it, she should be thankful that Perrin didn't just say the TR is his now and she can come and try to get it, because she would never be able to take it back. With the new population and cultural boost in the TR and the advantageous geographical location, she would never be able to take the TR back.

Arguable. It could certainly lead to a very costly struggle. After all, Elayne can hardly let it be seen that it is OK to rebel, can she? What if she just plonked an army down on one side of the river and didn't let anyone across? With no exports, the TR economy would take a hit, and can they raise sufficient food to feed their population?

And the line about killing him right there is ridiculous considering he had an asha'man right outside. Unless she had every kin in the city waiting behind the door, she'd have no chance. I'm really starting to wonder how powerful Grady and Neald are getting!

Well, how loyal are Grady and Neald to Perrin? If it came to a conflict between Perrin and Elayne, would they consider a war against the Queen of Andor to be within their remit? There would also be consequences to Asha'man getting involved. The White Tower wouldn't stand for it, so any move against Elayne Sedai puts AS and AM on a collision course. They'd have to be stupid not to realise the potential for conflict. So, they are very limited in how much they can help Perrin.

 

I just wish there was a place for honor, loyalty, and hard work and I always thought that place was Andor. That's why I'm so upset about the way Perrin was treated and annoyed at the way Elayne acted toward him.

Those qualities are all well and good, but Perrin was a traitor. Elayne had every right to treat him as she did, because he made mistakes that put the TR and Andor onto a collision course, and it was her that got them out of it, not him.

[f3llyn]

And Elayne is having trouble channeling reliably so you can't really count on her for anything as far as that is concerned.

[anotherfingolfin]

Bear in mind that things like rights can lapse over time. And don't get too hung up on the within living memory thing, that's mostly to show that there is a difference, however slight, between 200 and 1,000 years other than one was longer ago than the other. And yes, my point is more about the legality of matters. I don't really see much of a moral argument either way. The difference between the Seanchan claim on the Westlands and the Andoran claim on the TR is thus: The Seanchan failed to press their claim, while others asserted their own claims over those regions. The Andorans didn't press their claim, but no-one asserted a rival claim over the region during the intervening period. Not the TR folks, nor any outsiders. Not before Perrin. The Seanchan claim is like someone saying "if you don't want it, I'll have it." and the owner not saying otherwise. The TR example is like the owner saying "this is still mine, you know" when someone else tries to take it. I'd rather not get into the tangle that is the Israeli/Palestinian conflict if it's all the same.

 

Well, fair points, all. the thing is, with the lack of anythig substantial to go on, with regards to international law in Randland, it's all conjecture. Lacking hard codes to fall back on, comparing Andoran claims vis-a-vis those of Seanchan come down to murky subjectivity and sad to say, moral claims. That's the thing. Debate on a topic like this can really only be had on the morality/righteousness of it all. I don't think anybody is stupid enough to claim that in such a situation, any right minded monarch would not try to assert his/her claim over the disputed territory.

"The Andorans didn't press their claim, but no-one asserted a rival claim over the region during the intervening period."

To my mind, this sort of prima facie basis indicates, that had Perrin then decided to officially claim it, his claim becomes valid ipso facto. Sounds a little paradoxical to me, and that is why i feel that it sort of boils down to a question of who is 'in the right.'

So from where I stand, what Elayne did is normal and completely expected, morally unjustifiable, and legally indeterminable.

[folkstyle]

Andor didn't press its claim against the TR because they could hold either the mines in the Mountains of Mist or the TR, and they chose the mines for sound economic reasons. They turned their attention back their because it raised banners in rebellion - thus presenting a challenge to Andor's sovereignty over the land, something which had not previously been in dispute. She did treat him with the respect he deserves, but that doesn't mean he can go around spearheading rebellions without consequences. Much as he can't go around murdering Whitecloaks without having to face trial for it. Remember, for a good long while the TR benfited from free trade with the rest of Andor, so it's not at all as if they were denied all the benfits of being part of Andor. Also, while they might not have seen themselves as Andorans, they didn't actually do anythong to secede. Thus, they tacitly accepted the status quo, them being legally Andoran, for a long time.

1. You make a good point here, except the part abou the sovereignty not previously being in dispute because it was stated when Morgase was queen that the TR isn’t really part of Andor. Elayne recalls this as a child. Anyways, you’ve changed my mind on this one. There isn’t really any mention of wanting the TR because of its prosperity so I can now see how my previous statement had no backing

2. This does lead me to another point however. If your statement is that Elayne is turning her attention to the TR now because it has raised its own flags (and I’ll agree this is probably correct) then you are saying she is a queen who only cares about her people when they rise against her. This isn’t a quality that I’d want in a queen. So I’m back to the fact that she doesn’t really consider the TR important, so they don’t get any attention, until they raise against her. She should give all of her subjects attention. She has time to take of Cairhien, she should have time to get her own country in order.

 

The TR was brought to Caemlyn's attention because they rebelled, not because they became prosperous. And there are other prosperous parts of Andor, without High Lords. I doubt the TR has a bigger economy than them. So that excuse would have fooled no-one, it would simply appear to be a flimsy cover for Perrin declaring himself a Lord and keeping the title because he had a big enough army, thus an inducement to rebellion. Making Perrin a Lord might be a simple move, but it has repercussions, repercussions that might negatively affect the TR, and would certainly negatively impact Caemlyn. Also, I'm not sure I would call rewarding Perrin for the good he did but not punishing him for the bad to be fair.

What other prosperous areas are you talking about? I don't remember mention of any. I am guessing that you are just assuming there are other prosperous areas, maybe Baerlon or whitebridge, either way I don't know the situation with them and can't assume that they are as prosperous as the TR. The villages of the TR have grown into towns now and collectively make a pretty large area.

 

Arguable. It could certainly lead to a very costly struggle. After all, Elayne can hardly let it be seen that it is OK to rebel, can she? What if she just plonked an army down on one side of the river and didn't let anyone across? With no exports, the TR economy would take a hit, and can they raise sufficient food to feed their population?

I don’t know for sure what the economic results of blocking trade would have on the TR, but I think it is safe to say that they could raise sufficient food, since the entire area was originally farms. Also, on the economy issue, war is commonly beneficial to the economy because more supplies and equipment is needed. People can easily shift their normal jobs to jobs that will benefit the army and the defense of their land. And since Perrin kept the gold the the Aeil had in Malden, I think he’d be plenty able to pay his people for this work.s

 

Well, how loyal are Grady and Neald to Perrin? If it came to a conflict between Perrin and Elayne, would they consider a war against the Queen of Andor to be within their remit? There would also be consequences to Asha'man getting involved. The White Tower wouldn't stand for it, so any move against Elayne Sedai puts AS and AM on a collision course. They'd have to be stupid not to realise the potential for conflict. So, they are very limited in how much they can help Perrin.

1.Grady and Neald are very loyal to Perrin. Grady states this in ToM in the section of the book where he wants to go see his family. They recognize that Perrin is a true leader and would definitely protect him. Perrin had to tell Grady to wait outside when he visits Elayne. This to me is indicative of the fact that Grady wants to an will protect Perrin from Elayne.

2.They wouldn’t be stupid at all. They know the AS have already fought with AM. They were at Dumai’s wells and they are constantly watching the AS. To say that they wouldn’t fight because Elayne is AS is just wrong IMO. I don’t think that would affect them at all. They would protect Perrin.

 

Those qualities are all well and good, but Perrin was a traitor. Elayne had every right to treat him as she did, because he made mistakes that put the TR and Andor onto a collision course, and it was her that got them out of it, not him.

Yes Perrin is a traitor in that he raised his own flags and became the lord of the TR, but he is not rebelling against Andor so he’s not really a traitor. And had he not done what he’d done then all of the TR would be destroyed and Elayne wouldn’t even have people there to rule. He the lives of the TR people and she doesn’t even recognize this. I think that she did a good job of trying to come up with a solution that would be accepted publicly, but she goes about getting this solution by being a tyrant, making empty threats and false accusations, and that’s what I can’t stand for.

 

Elayne send envoys, not tax collectors. The word envoys implies they were sent to negotiate. But they were swiftly sent away by the locals who refused that. She was right not to send armed forces, since this would've most likely led to a war.

1. Ok, she sent envoys. My mistake, I just kept reading about “she sent tax collectors” and didn’t really check the fact.

2. I can’t really blame the TR people for not wanting to talk to people that are coming to take their money but weren’t there to help them when they need it.

 

But even with the population boom Two Rivers isn't anywhere populous enough to justify the High lord title. There were all of 4 villages there at the start of the series, with something like several thousand occupants in total. They were hit hard by the Trollocs invasion. IIRC even after the influx of refugees, Perrin had only been able to collect something like 3000 - 4000 Two Rivers men for his army which Tam al'Thor led to join him back in KoD. On the other hand, each of the 19 Andoran High Seats are able to call to arms around 10 000 trained men.

I’m not sure about that stat of 10,000 trained men. I can’t find the numbers anywhere online, but I’ll take your word for it until I can get my hands on my books. In all honesty I forgot about him being a “high” lord, so I’ll take my idea back. Elayne seems to have the best solution(giving it to Rand), but I wish they had made stipulations about children. And I wish Elayne would just be nice. Perrin isn’t sneaky, you don’t have to try to overwhelm him in order to get a fair deal. She could have learned that from her mother or Galad. Also, she never even thanked him for taking her mother in. Yes he did it unintentionally, but he still took care of her and rescued her from the Aiel. Anways, if these numbers are correct, then you’re right, my bad. Thanks for setting me straight.

 

Where do you get that from? Elayne herself is really strong in the Power, strongest Aes Sedai in 1000 years (except Nynaeve) she wouldn't need help to beat a run of the mill Asha'man. Unless it's mentioned somewhere that Grady is exceptionally strong, but I don't recall this.

Elayne is very powerful in the Power and she does have the problem of not being in total control because of her babies, but let’s just say that she is able to use the Power, what is she going to do? Is she going to strike Perrin down on the spot? I guess she could since she hasn’t sworn the oaths. I don’t really think she would, but she could. That’s not really being AS though is it? So she could hold him there so that her guards could kill him? Yeah, but if Grady hears anything like that happening then she’s screwed because he’ll be in the room in a second to protect Perrin and Faile. It is stated by Perrin that Grady is getting stronger because he noticed him making much larger gateways. Also, Grady is not run of the mill. He was a “dedicated” when he went to Dumai’s wells and it has already been stated that he’s stronger. Asha’men don’t gain strength steadily, they gain it in bursts.

[waffle]

 

Don´t the Seanchan have a valid claim to the whole of Randland too then? I saw you say somewhere that there is a difference between 200 and a 1000 years. To be honest, i see those as the kind of numbers where in matters such as these, there is no difference.

 

200 years ago is still within living memory for some people. 1,000 years isn't. No other states were claiming the TR, it was simply four villages (or three and one town, depending on the size of Taren Ferry) and a bunch of farms, no central authority. Other states were claiming the lands formerly held by the Seanchan Empire, and they failed to press their claim. Therefore there are distinct differences between the two situations. Of course, inter arma enim silent leges (in times of conflict the law falls silent). The legal authority of Andor over the TR has been accepted, even if only on paper, but the legal claim to the Seanchan is vigourously opposed. If they can conquer it it's theirs, if they can't it isn't.

 

It´s within living memory of some sisters who are usually secluded in their Tower. What do they have to with anything?

 

The legal authority over the TR has been accepted? Huh? By whom? Did i miss something in the books somewhere?

 

Evidently. I suggest a re-read of Towers of Midnight, because in it Perrin accepts Elayne's authority over the TR, accepts the ligitimacy of their claim.

 

No he didn´t. He just went along with the charade to help Elayne save face to prevent war within the Light side. You really think he is going to hop when Elayne says toad?

 

Elayne even pointed out that Perrin was doing a bad job of convincing her that he accepted her authority and Perrins reaction waspretty much: "Tough. Deal with it."

 

"If they can conquer it it's theirs, if they can't it isn't." So after arguing that Andor has legal rights we come to the marrow of it. Perrin as good as conuered it. It´s his.

 

Then he accepted the title of Steward, Rand as his High Lord, and Elayne as his Queen. So, no it isn't.

 

I see you are arguing in favor of the de jure stuff here. De facto it is Perrins.

 

And what legal claim does Andor have? Is there some universal law given by the Creator which regulates these matters? If you can take it, it´s yours. Perrin took it. He can hold it. Elayne can´t.

 

That opinion doesn´t extend to robbing and raping though. There´s a difference betweens one person and assets and land that people have lived on for generations, worked it and defended it. The Two Rivers people have a very valid position to claim the TR as their own. Elayne just doesn´t. Even if it once was, it really isn´t anymore.

 

I think i´m going to stop arguing now because having every argument countered by "Andor has a legal claim", when i don´t quite understand who makes the law that makes the subjugation of what basically is another nation legal, is quite boring. And the problem with making up new arguments is that they get less and less valid.

 

You have failed to convince me that Elayne has any right, moral or legal, to claim the TR as her own, and i very much doubt i can turn you around.

[Kaznen]

Where do you get that from? Elayne herself is really strong in the Power, strongest Aes Sedai in 1000 years (except Nynaeve) she wouldn't need help to beat a run of the mill Asha'man. Unless it's mentioned somewhere that Grady is exceptionally strong, but I don't recall this.

Elayne is very powerful in the Power and she does have the problem of not being in total control because of her babies, but let’s just say that she is able to use the Power, what is she going to do? Is she going to strike Perrin down on the spot? I guess she could since she hasn’t sworn the oaths. I don’t really think she would, but she could. That’s not really being AS though is it? So she could hold him there so that her guards could kill him? Yeah, but if Grady hears anything like that happening then she’s screwed because he’ll be in the room in a second to protect Perrin and Faile. It is stated by Perrin that Grady is getting stronger because he noticed him making much larger gateways. Also, Grady is not run of the mill. He was a “dedicated” when he went to Dumai’s wells and it has already been stated that he’s stronger. Asha’men don’t gain strength steadily, they gain it in bursts.

Also Grady is probably stronger in the OP then Elayne. In the OP men, for the most part, are stronger then women. While Elayne is strong for a women I don't think she has the super strengh Nyn and that freed damane and the super novice has. Remember Mo told Suane she thought Nyn was a bonfire to Egwene's candle, and Elayne and Egwene are equal strength in the OP. And Grady is above average with the AM.

 

I don't know if it was mentioned earlier but what really burned me about Elayne was during a reread of her interrogating the BA prisoner and she said was surprised the shadow was so "hell bent" on killing Mat.

 

She was like, "Sure he is a close friend of Rand, Ta'veren, a military master mind, commander of the largest single group of soldiers currently in Andor (I do think there is more Band of the Red Hand then Queens Guards, not a lot more but more), Hero of Cairehien and the Aiel, and sounder of the Horn of Valor (she knows it was him) but why would the shadow think he is a threat.

 

She is one of the few AS who hasn't figured out Mat and Perrin are vital to Rand's success.

[Durinax]

Well she doesnt know that mat is a military master mind. And I can see how she could forget mat sounded the horn of valere, I forgot, and it hasnt been two years since I learnt of that.

[Darth Krewl]

I don't know if it was mentioned earlier but what really burned me about Elayne was during a reread of her interrogating the BA prisoner and she said was surprised the shadow was so "hell bent" on killing Mat.

 

She was like, "Sure he is a close friend of Rand, Ta'veren, a military master mind, commander of the largest single group of soldiers currently in Andor (I do think there is more Band of the Red Hand then Queens Guards, not a lot more but more), Hero of Cairehien and the Aiel, and sounder of the Horn of Valor (she knows it was him) but why would the shadow think he is a threat.

 

She is one of the few AS who hasn't figured out Mat and Perrin are vital to Rand's success.

 

lol...right!

 

This on Mat and her thoughts on Perrin (IIRC, she even wanted him dead for "rebelling" against Andor's rule) have got to be some of the stupidest things this extremely stupid character has ever thought.

 

She wants to kill the "Wolf King", who is a Ta'veren vital to the Dragon Reborn's chances, who appears in many a prophecy, including those of the Shadow, while I've yet to find mention of the ruler of the Lion Throne having any importance at Tarmon Gai'don, thus stating the guy's importance. On whose side is she on? The Shadow's?

 

I've always thought that nobles in the Randland were all supposed to study the Karaethon Cycle, not to mention Aes Sedai. And Elayne's supposed to be both. But her level of ignorance concerning Ta'veren and the importance of both, Mat and Perrin, to the chances of the Light is, frankly, mind-boggling.

 

No wonder Caemlyn was targeted by the Shadow and is in such serious danger of falling. They have a complete and utter idiot for a ruler.

 

Well she doesnt know that mat is a military master mind. And I can see how she could forget mat sounded the horn of valere, I forgot, and it hasnt been two years since I learnt of that.

 

Guy commands one of the mightiest, largest and most effective military forces in the Randlands and, she doesn't know he's a military mastermind? How the hell does she think that Mat came to command the Band of the Red Hand then? By tossing the dice?

 

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Mat has got to be far more than merely "lucky" to command such a military force so effectively.