Demandred

[DocBean]

All of these arguments against Demandred sound like impatient children. Really, if you dont like a character because they havent had much screen time, thats really stupid. That was the whole point of Demandred, small hints at something big, but never actually explored, until the last, where he will finally reveal himself.

 

Come on, seriously, hear yourselves, disliking a character, simply because you dont know what they are doing and havent found out in a long time....

 

 

Defending a character because he hasn't had any screen time is as pointless as bashing a character because he's had no screen time.

I don't get why everyone is so impressed with Demandred, and his spider-like nature.

 

Honestly, would the series be any worse without him ever being introduced? No.

Will the series get more exciting when we do finally see what he's been up to? Yes.

Would the series have been better if he really was Taim - yes.

 

it is what it is, but until he proves he can play, I'm not buying this Rookie's Jersey.

 

 

 

[talligan]

Really? See I thought Demandred was behind most of the crap in book 6. The fake Aiel who wounded the one Aes Sedai in Caemlyn that ultimately chased Rand to Cairhien and thus got him captured (I don't think that was the point of the fake aiel, I think they were just there to undermine Aes Sedai trust in Rand), the wars in Shara, the Dragonsworn army (what was the comment from one forsaken that events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them?)

 

Graendel accidentally caused the war in Shara by triggering one of their prophecies, when all she wanted to do was kidnap Sharan leaders as a red herring so Sammael couldn't guess her plans. (Her real plan was to get Sammael to attack Rand, both to keep Rand's attention off her, and to get Sammael killed.) I tune out things like the Dragonsworn army, "events to the south", and the fake Aiel as hopelessly vague teasers. If one or all of them ended up being Demandred though, it would certainly play into his theme of being a hopelessly vague teaser himself.

 

Then what did he do in book 6 to please the great lord of the dark dark one?

 

>.>

 

<.<

[Impressive Bosom]

Really? See I thought Demandred was behind most of the crap in book 6. The fake Aiel who wounded the one Aes Sedai in Caemlyn that ultimately chased Rand to Cairhien and thus got him captured (I don't think that was the point of the fake aiel, I think they were just there to undermine Aes Sedai trust in Rand), the wars in Shara, the Dragonsworn army (what was the comment from one forsaken that events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them?)

 

Graendel accidentally caused the war in Shara by triggering one of their prophecies, when all she wanted to do was kidnap Sharan leaders as a red herring so Sammael couldn't guess her plans. (Her real plan was to get Sammael to attack Rand, both to keep Rand's attention off her, and to get Sammael killed.) I tune out things like the Dragonsworn army, "events to the south", and the fake Aiel as hopelessly vague teasers. If one or all of them ended up being Demandred though, it would certainly play into his theme of being a hopelessly vague teaser himself.

 

Can somebody help me with this? I've read the books all a number of times (though admittedly widely spaced readings), and often topics like this one will come up where people speak with an authoratative knowledge concerning things I have no clue about.

 

How do we know Graendel accidently caused the war in Share by triggering one of their prophecies? Which prophecy? How do we know she did it to mislead Sammael? I don't recall any of this.

 

This is just one example of many things I've learned on these boards that I don't remotely remember from any of my readings through the books themselves - though admittedly I've never followed blogs, twitter accounts, been to book signings, etc. so there might be a lot of extra-cirricular information out there I'm ignorant of.

[talligan]

Really? See I thought Demandred was behind most of the crap in book 6. The fake Aiel who wounded the one Aes Sedai in Caemlyn that ultimately chased Rand to Cairhien and thus got him captured (I don't think that was the point of the fake aiel, I think they were just there to undermine Aes Sedai trust in Rand), the wars in Shara, the Dragonsworn army (what was the comment from one forsaken that events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them?)

 

Graendel accidentally caused the war in Shara by triggering one of their prophecies, when all she wanted to do was kidnap Sharan leaders as a red herring so Sammael couldn't guess her plans. (Her real plan was to get Sammael to attack Rand, both to keep Rand's attention off her, and to get Sammael killed.) I tune out things like the Dragonsworn army, "events to the south", and the fake Aiel as hopelessly vague teasers. If one or all of them ended up being Demandred though, it would certainly play into his theme of being a hopelessly vague teaser himself.

 

Can somebody help me with this? I've read the books all a number of times (though admittedly widely spaced readings), and often topics like this one will come up where people speak with an authoratative knowledge concerning things I have no clue about.

 

How do we know Graendel accidently caused the war in Share by triggering one of their prophecies? Which prophecy? How do we know she did it to mislead Sammael? I don't recall any of this.

 

This is just one example of many things I've learned on these boards that I don't remotely remember from any of my readings through the books themselves - though admittedly I've never followed blogs, twitter accounts, been to book signings, etc. so there might be a lot of extra-cirricular information out there I'm ignorant of.

 

During the Sammael/Graendel meeting in LoC she shows off the Sh'boan and Sh'botay to Sammael in an effort to make him think she was interested in those lands. We also find out around that time that there are wars going on in that land because of the dragon reborn. Supposedly the disappearance of their rulers caused those wars or it was prophesied or something. I could be wrong though, the passage in LoC wasn't exactly clear.

[Morsker]

Well, I guess Graendel causing the mess in Shara isn't mutually exclusive with Demandred taking advantage of it and building an army there. But like all Demandred theories, it only has slightly more evidence than him spending 12 books on the dark side of the moon collecting cheese.

[OptimusPrime]

Really? See I thought Demandred was behind most of the crap in book 6. The fake Aiel who wounded the one Aes Sedai in Caemlyn that ultimately chased Rand to Cairhien and thus got him captured (I don't think that was the point of the fake aiel, I think they were just there to undermine Aes Sedai trust in Rand), the wars in Shara, the Dragonsworn army (what was the comment from one forsaken that events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them?)

 

Graendel accidentally caused the war in Shara by triggering one of their prophecies, when all she wanted to do was kidnap Sharan leaders as a red herring so Sammael couldn't guess her plans. (Her real plan was to get Sammael to attack Rand, both to keep Rand's attention off her, and to get Sammael killed.) I tune out things like the Dragonsworn army, "events to the south", and the fake Aiel as hopelessly vague teasers. If one or all of them ended up being Demandred though, it would certainly play into his theme of being a hopelessly vague teaser himself.

 

Then what did he do in book 6 to please the great lord of the dark dark one?

 

>.>

 

<.<

 

Facilitating Ishamaels return as Moridin.

[miyori]

split this up into sections to make it more readable

 

Not so spoilerific

I agree with the previous posters who claimed this 'revelation' is not really a spoiler. We know that Demandred is the only remaining general among the Forsaken--Sammael is dead and Ishamael is a philosopher and grand planner, not a general. That leaves the command of the horde of trollocs and twisted Asha'man in Demandred's capable hands.

 

 

Why Demandred disappoints; Musings on his inferiority to Ishamael

I would not get your hopes up for him as the "kingpin" of the Dark, mainly because Ishamael is the brains behind the whole operation--Demandred is a good general but lacks Ishamael's insight into the Dark One's mission. Only Ishamael understands that everyone's just a pawn to advance the Dark One's agenda, and that his victory is basically the end of time.

 

It's true, as some posters have noted, that Grandael is "wary" of Demandred. They acknowledge him as a powerful foe but can understand his human motives: he's driven by his envy and hatred of Lews Therin and his thirst for conquest/glory. On the other hand, almost every Forsaken point of view describes Ishamael as a frightening mastermind half-mad with power. Plus, Shaidar Haran interacts with him differently than the other Forsaken--you'll notice Ishamael treats him as a peer whereas Demandred views him as an unsettling presence in the LoC.

 

I feel like this is the crux of our disappointment in Demandred. It has nothing to do with the amount of exposure we've had to him; he's simply dwarfed by Ishamael. But this really isn't any different from Rand towering over most of his supporting cast. Mat is the only one aside from Rand who's really changing the face of the world. In fact, he has quite a few things in common with Demandred... (more on that below)

 

 

He will not go gentle into that good night

I feel like Brandon's enthusiasm in his exchange can be attributed to all the craziness that is going to happen when all hell breaks loose in AMoL. All those memories from Lews Therin about the Forsaken breaking cities and demoralizing the Light are a foreshadowing of what all-out war with the Shadow will look like in the present age. Only this time, Demandred has free reign of the forces of Darkness--he's more ruthless, tactical, and vicious than Sammael or any of the other Forsaken. I expect to see some really horrific scenes that will make our jaws drop--hell, RJ probably had some notes on this, having seen some pretty terrible things in his day.

 

 

Demandred's connection to Mat, badass vs. badass

Someone made the connection between Demandred and Mat earlier in this thread, and I agree that there are uncanny similarities. Both are basically the generals for their respective sides, and both have a very loose and fast style of gambling. War chapters will revolve around the interplay between the two, and it will turn out far more dynamic and interesting than the stuffy exchanges between Ishamael and Rand. This alone will make Demandred awesome.

 

side note: Ishamael's focus on Mat make a lot more sense now--surprising when you consider he's known Mat's importance in the pattern since book 2.

 

 

How he'll meet his end

I expect Demandred's downfall will be a result of his reckless gambling. Since trollocs seem endless in supply (and hence their casualties deemed unimportant), I suspect this will take the form of some open conflict between his dreadlords and the combined forces of Asha'man and Aes Sedai (or perhaps the battle for the Black Tower if that somehow doesn't get fully resolved in Towers of Midnight).

 

 

Obligatory "This is why I hate Perrin and Egwene"

Perrin prances off with his banshee of a wife to go hold the line against the endless waves of trollocs, Emond's Field 2.0... with Wolves!  ::)

Egwene "can do no wrong" al'Vere magically mends the rift between male and female Aes Sedai because all Rand is good for is pissing people off. What can't the wondergirls do? I get as angry as Ishamael just thinking about it.  >:(

 

Three cheers for Demandred, may he lop off many an annoying head!

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Maybe this time Faile can die.

 

Hopes and dreams of a madman

[The Fisher King]

I actually think sort of am kinda afraid that...after all the vagueness and absence of Demandred for most of the series...that if he DOES bust out and do something Magnificent at the very end, that...it would seem a bit cheesy and hard to credit...almost Deus Ex Machina.

 

JMO

 

 

Fish

[aunt_pol]

Yep. We're gonna have to see some major Demandred face time in ToM for him to justify his status as uber boogyman. He can't just rock up at Tarwin's Gap or somewhere and start trouncing everyone.

[Thor]

Ok a few things in this thread makes me unhappy.

 

WHY would you ever cry when a forsaken dies? There were loads more characters whose death were much sadder and far more worthy of tears.

 

HOW can you say that Mat is the only other than Rand who is awesome? Perrin in my opinion has much superior fighting ability than Mat. Perrin pretty much just bashes a Myrdraal to death whereas Mat has to jump around squirm about to kill one.

[Shadow Rider]

And Demandred had some role to play in getting the Asha'man to Dumai's Wells, to make sure Rand was freed, not a prisoner of Aes Sedai

 

Huh???, If Rand had been taken to the Tower then he would have been in Mesaana's clutches which was the point of abducting Rand, she would have scooped him up and taken him to Shayol Ghul. I think that would have pissed The Great Lord off not impressed him.

 

Shaidar Haran interacts with him differently than the other Forsaken--you'll notice Ishamael treats him as a peer

 

Really....in tGH prologue 'In the Shadow' at the DFs ball, Shaidar Haran seemed terrified of Ishy cringing. Where do we see Moridin & SH interact?

[Shadow Rider]

SPOILER tag removed...Happy?

[Duskfire]

Ok a few things in this thread makes me unhappy.

 

WHY would you ever cry when a forsaken dies? There were loads more characters whose death were much sadder and far more worthy of tears.

 

HOW can you say that Mat is the only other than Rand who is awesome? Perrin in my opinion has much superior fighting ability than Mat. Perrin pretty much just bashes a Myrdraal to death whereas Mat has to jump around squirm about to kill one.

 

Thats got nothing to do with superior fighting ability, thats just how they fight. Mat is more agile while Perrin is brute force. On their actual fighting ability, I think your completely wrong, but we'll never know so thats okay :P Mat has fought blademasters, numerous aiel at once, the gholam, etc etc. Perrin has done nothing even remotely like that. In an actual fight against Mat, Perrin would be far far too slow.

 

Huh???, If Rand had been taken to the Tower then he would have been in Mesaana's clutches which was the point of abducting Rand, she would have scooped him up and taken him to Shayol Ghul. I think that would have pissed The Great Lord off not impressed him.

 

The point of abducting Rand was to create conflict between him and Aes Sedai. I personally dont think it had anything to do with Mesaana capturing him. It was meant to fail. Thats how I interpret it anyhow.

[mossman87]

 

The point of abducting Rand was to create conflict between him and Aes Sedai. I personally dont think it had anything to do with Mesaana capturing him. It was meant to fail. Thats how I interpret it anyhow.

 

Exactly.  Let the Lord of Chaos Rule.  The Box really did a number on Rand.  The Battle.  The kneeling or being knelt.  All of it was to destroy Rand mentally yet still allow him to be free to rule and go down his dark path.

[Shadow Rider]

 

The point of abducting Rand was to create conflict between him and Aes Sedai. I personally dont think it had anything to do with Mesaana capturing him. It was meant to fail. Thats how I interpret it anyhow.

 

Exactly.  Let the Lord of Chaos Rule.  The Box really did a number on Rand.  The Battle.  The kneeling or being knelt.  All of it was to destroy Rand mentally yet still allow him to be free to rule and go down his dark path.

 

I like this theory.

[Demiandre]

What are Demandred's Talents other than beeing able to stop a closing Gateway? Do we have hints about it in the books? I can't remember. Because Aran'Gar stated that it was Dashiva's and Demandred's role to keep an eye on Rand. (Could Dashiva's perpetual rumaging have been him passing informations to Moridin??). So to keep an eye on him, he had to be around some times. He even watched Elayne in T'A'R.

[Shadow Rider]

I'm starting to think Demandred Could be at the Black Tower, not Taim, but the real man in charge.

[Duskfire]

What are Demandred's Talents other than beeing able to stop a closing Gateway? Do we have hints about it in the books? I can't remember. Because Aran'Gar stated that it was Dashiva's and Demandred's role to keep an eye on Rand. (Could Dashiva's perpetual rumaging have been him passing informations to Moridin??). So to keep an eye on him, he had to be around some times. He even watched Elayne in T'A'R.

 

All it could mean is that Demandred has spies close to Rand, not that he is neccessarily close to Rand himself. Personally I think Taim is (or was) involved with him, but it could be anyone really. Demandred enjoys using proxies; its probably against his nature to hang out near Rand and keep an eye on him personally when everyone other Forsaken is getting their ass kicked. Especially since none of the other Forsaken knows where he is; that too implies spies.

[mossman87]

 

The point of abducting Rand was to create conflict between him and Aes Sedai. I personally dont think it had anything to do with Mesaana capturing him. It was meant to fail. Thats how I interpret it anyhow.

 

Exactly.  Let the Lord of Chaos Rule.  The Box really did a number on Rand.  The Battle.  The kneeling or being knelt.  All of it was to destroy Rand mentally yet still allow him to be free to rule and go down his dark path.

 

I like this theory.

 

It's much easier frothing up a population when you have something big and bad to point at and show that all the ills in the world is due to it.  I'm sure there's a huge contingent of crazy Tea Partiers in Randland absolutely frightened that the Dragon Reborn has overtaken all sides of the political spectrum and coming to rain death and terror on them.  I mean did you hear what happened in Tear?? Cairhien?  Dumai's Wells??  I hear something is going on in Tanchico and Falme too, oh lord I'm scared :(

 

Hell the next paragraph after in LOC showed how the tales of Dumai's Wells spread throughout Randland causing even more Chaos.  So it all fits in my head.

 

Edit: Anyway that's a derail, I think Demandred was responsible for whatever helped Rand spread Chaos throughout the book, although being conservative I'd say maybe it's only Dumai's Wells. (Which would tie Dem with the BT).  Could be the other talked abouts as well, WCs, Dragonsworn, but that's been talked to death.

 

But I can also see a need for someone to keep hold of everything while Ishamael was being brought back as Moridin, so maybe that was Dem's job before he came back, and he's settled down now in the BT, who f'n knows.  It makes my brain hurt.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, I think that Demandred has been messing with everything through his proxies.

 

ON the note of proxies however, although I myself believe in Demandred's use of them, i find it strange taht while we doubt even the slightest turn of phrase throughout the books, most people dont doubt that Demandred favours proxies.

 

I mean, all we have to go on is Sammael's word. We all know that Forsaken can be mistaken as much as any, so why do we seem to take Sammael's word as cannon, while other things in the series we doubt if it is not stated plainly and backed up with 3 other soruces.

 

Strange...

 

Note: I do think Sammael had the right of it, but I do have doubts about it even still.

[Duskfire]

Yeah, I think that Demandred has been messing with everything through his proxies.

 

ON the note of proxies however, although I myself believe in Demandred's use of them, i find it strange taht while we doubt even the slightest turn of phrase throughout the books, most people dont doubt that Demandred favours proxies.

 

I mean, all we have to go on is Sammael's word. We all know that Forsaken can be mistaken as much as any, so why do we seem to take Sammael's word as cannon, while other things in the series we doubt if it is not stated plainly and backed up with 3 other soruces.

 

Strange...

 

Note: I do think Sammael had the right of it, but I do have doubts about it even still.

 

Its mentioned in the Guide too, isn't it? Been a while since I've read it.

 

In any case, it fits with the whole General thing that Demandred has going for him. Your right, it hasn't been mentioned often, but Sammael had no real reason to lie about it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I agree with you, I still believe Sammael had the right of it.

 

However, i just looked in the BWB, thers no mention of Demandred and proxies, so its only Sammael's word (As far as I know anyway)

 

And just on the point of Sammael having no reason to lie

 

BWB Chapter 5: Dark One and Male Forsaken.

 

There are some indicatios that he did not get along well with all the other Forsaken, and was especially cool towards Sammael...

 

Not really a reason as such, but there it is.

 

It is just strange that with that quote, vague as it is, and with only the one reference to proxies, (when other information is so avidly scoured and dismissed as speculation.) that the majority seem to take it as a given

[mossman87]

Even though I go from thinking he's BT, to Masema's dude, to Whitecloaks, to Shara, Murandy, and Borderlands, from the beginning (Of the character's introduction) I always thought he was Galgan, and I still waffle on it.

[DaughterOfNight]

Obligatory "This is why I hate Perrin and Egwene"

Egwene "can do no wrong" al'Vere magically mends the rift between male and female Aes Sedai because all Rand is good for is pissing people off. What can't the wondergirls do? I get as angry as Ishamael just thinking about it.  

 

Every once in a while, I get a little annoyed about how easily the girls get things done or figure something out.  At the same time, every now and then it humors me realizing how the girls' ignorance, like Nynaeve and Elayne, accidentally causes problems but their screw-up ultimately leads them to an answer, or help a person in need or find what they're looking for. Something like that, haha.  Sorry, can't cite a reference at the moment.  

 

RJ has told us that none of the main female characters are ta'veren proper but in my opinion, situations like Egwene being able to easily influence the healing of the White Tower could be encouraged in a way by the Pattern.  She may not be ta'veren but the Pattern has picked her out to be a strong force in the shaping of events with a dash of luck to boot.  I don't know... I haven't given this speculation much thought up until this moment, but who knows.

 

While we're on the subject of Egwene's magical White Tower healing abilities... I, too, feel a little... annoyance?... at how easily Egwene gets it done.  The whole lot of Aes Sedai in general, aside from a select few, annoy me because they are made out to be immature bickering girls unable to work together; they all seem so childish to me.  Why aren't there more Cadsuanes or Moiraines or Verins (not including her Black Ajah association)?

 

I'm re-reading KoD right now and I'm at the very part where Egwene is working her way up the ladder from the Novices to Accepted to AS and the series of events just seems to come too easily, particularly with the Aes Sedai.  She mentions something to one of them during a lesson or plants one of her seeds and all of the sudden, the AS in her company immediately gobbles it up.

 

I do like Egwene's story arc, particularly from KoD and on, despite how influential she is for one who has only been associated with the AS for such a short time.  She calls the White Tower her home and her life but geez, she acts as if she was born in the Tower! :)

 

Ok, I'll leave it at that.  This is a thread for Demandred, not for Egwene haha.