Att Ajah Heads: Weapons Training for WT members

[Elgee]

Currently, the rules are as follows:

 

Any Accepted or Aes Sedai may train up to a Weapons Score of 5. Accepted may only train up to a 5 and no higher until reaching the rank of Aes Sedai. Accepted must train with someone of the Warders Yard as must Aes Sedai, though Aes Sedai may train with their Warder with permission. Full Rank Aes Sedai of any Ajah but the Red or Green may train to a Weapon Score of 7. Sisters of the Red and Green Ajah may train up to a 10, however they must be granted permission by BOTH DL’s. A form must be completed and rp plans submitted before approval will be reviewed. Each requirement completed from WS 1 to WS 10 must be pmed to your DL with a link to said thread for recording purposes.

Before you begin training, you must follow these steps in order.

 

  1. Permission from your Division Leader.

  2. Email the Warder's Division Leader at warders.staff@gmail.com with your information (bio, ws, div)

 

Also you may not bond anyone who doesn’t have a higher WS than you, so this limits your bonding prospects.

 

There's more, which you can read here: http://whitetower.aliciawilkerson.com/?page_id=62

 

Now, my personal opinion has always been that if you want to play with weapons, go make a Warder Character. Nowhere in the Books is there any mention (that I can recall) of AS training with weapons. AS have the OP to play with, and just because our male counterparts at the BT train with weapons, doesn't mean we should do the same. The Asha'man don't (didn't) have Warders, Aes Sedai do.

 

I therefore feel that AS also training as warriors is not only not according to the Books, but also encroaching on Warder territory.

 

Possible Exceptions:

 

Green Ajah: They are the Battle Ajah, and can thus be considered a special case.

(Claire suggested a class in Battle Tactics, which especially the Greens might benefit from. We could offer that as an Accepted Class, and make it mandatory for all those who want to go Green to take that. Or any full AS can take it, but it's mandatory for Greens. It could perhaps be taught by someone from the Warders Yard, which would have the dual benefit of more interaction between the 2 Divs. Battle tactics would certainly be more useful (especially to a Green) than swinging a sword, IMO. )

 

Red Ajah: They were not allowed to Bond, and could thus also be considered a special case (in the past). Now they are allowed to Bond Asha'man, and we get into a tricky area.

 

I have opened this matter up for discussion and vote at the Reds, in my capacity as Ajah Head. 

What I put to vote at the Reds is this:

Should Reds train with Weapons?  (Voting closes: 23-03-2010, 19:54:10)

Options:

Reds should not train with Weapons

Reds may train, but only up to level 7

Reds may train up to level 10

Other - please post to explain

 

I also asked them to discuss:

How do you feel about weapons training for Reds? Since Bonding is now allowed, is there any justification for the Reds to

a) be allowed to have a higher score than the other Ajahs (apart from Green)

b) be allowed to do weapons training at all

 

 

I would like to hear from all the other Heads what your thoughts are on the matter, and how you would like to proceed.  Would you like to have the matter decided on a per Ajah basis, or would you like me to throw the discussion open to all Aes Sedai as a group / all members (from novice to AS) as a group?

 

Bear in mind that now all Ajah's can bond BT members, and the weapons score thing will come into play there too. Most of them don't seem to have a score higher than 10, and that is actually the exception - most seem to have a score of 7, or so.

 

Also, it doesn't seem that many people other than the Greens are taking advantage of this system, which leads me to believe that it's not something the average Aes Sedai is interested in. In all the time I was MoN (more than a year), not a single novice or Accepted expressed any interest in weapons training, that I can recall).

 

Oh yes - you can check out the BT Weapon scores here, to compare your score (if you have one) with those of potential bondeds:  http://blacktowerdiv.wordpress.com/active-members/

 

 

PS: All training done so far, or permission granted by both DLs to train up to 10 (for currently approved character - if a bio had to be reapproved, all Talents and permissions need to also be reapplied for), will stand, should this system change.

[Lavinya]

A revamp is a good idea. I don't think weapons training should be scrapped all together. My suggestions -

 

1) Change the limit for all Aes Sedai/Accepted (except Green but including red) from 7 back down to 5. Enough to have a basic still, but considered a trainee as far as the WY is concerned. Maybe limit Accepted to a WS of 2 or 3 until they are raised.

 

2) Drop the Greens back down to 7. From what I am aware, Tower Guards stop being trainees at this WS (Eqwina can correct me!). So, even the playing field and drop the Green limit back also. Still makes them competent warriors, but still only about par with your average newly graduated trainee.

 

3) That it's not a popular idea and not many do it is a good thing. It's not supposed to be appealing to every WT character. Having a select few with some weapons experience is plausible.

 

4) Interaction with the WY is always a good thing, our divs should be super close, just like in the books :)

 

5) Consider that it is not always godmodding or pointless to have some weapons training for your Aes Sedai. Let me use my own Aes Sedai as an example.

 

Lavinya is of the Gray. She endured unknown torture and abuse at the Black Tower, at the hands of one Linten, a dreamwalker. He stalked her by day and invaded her dreams by night. She was constantly bound to another Asha'man, and compelled to obey, and was forbidden to channel. So, totally helpless, yes? Moving on from her release, she still has severe night terrors and is afraid to sleep during the night, for fear of Linten finding her (as he promised) and continuing his abuse. Channeling during sleep is dangerous, and is not even certain against someone as proficient in the dream world as Linten is. The solution? Her promised Tower Guard can protect her waking, but sleeping she is on her own. So, he suggests some basic weapon training, to assist her in those times when she is unable to channel. I'm currently rping the first thread (had permission from Eq and Jayde at the time, we were just slow to get started lol)

 

Now, a bit of a unique situation, but it's logical, don't you think, for Lavinya to want to know how to at least hold a sword?

 

6) Is the current system being abused? I don't think it is, therefore I don't think it's a bad system. Needs just tweaking, not abolishing ;)

[Taei]

I think that would fall under the special considerations part Lavi. As for me, when I first joined and was looking around I had never been on a WoT RP board before and I was actually kinda shocked to see that you could train in weapons. While I do agree with the possibility of being able to take a beginners class, basically a how to not kill yourself with a sword class, most Aes Sedai from the series seem to think that weapons are useless. I mean, when you think about it, why wait till you find a sword and pick it up when you can simply create a blade with air by thinking about it. Unless they're expecting to be inside a stedding the Aes Sedai rely heavily on their abilities to channel and when they don't think that's enough they usually bring Warders or armed guards along. I think that possibly a basic weapon course that will give you a WS of 1 or 2 (not kill yourself level) would be about all most Aes Sedai would be interested in, if they're interested at all.

 

The Greens seem to be mainly battle leaders more than sword masters so I would agree with the tactics course as well. I'd say for them to know more than the basics with any weapon would be rare as well. Perhaps they might know a trick or two from their Warders, but again that would only be rare.

 

There is a lot of interaction between Aes Sedai and Warders in the books, but it's all social unless they are bonded. It seems to take place a lot in the Warder's Yard where Aes Sedai are known to be spectators. Perhaps allow for more interaction between the two that way instead?

 

Summary: I like it. Perhaps add a basic training course for how to act around weapons but not with a high skill level and allow for more social interaction in the Warder's Yard (onlookers).

[Elgee]

You put the mind set of the AS very well, Taei  :D

 

Another thing to consider: novices and Accepted don't seem to have a spare moment. The one repeating theme is that they're exhausted to the point of crying. So where would they find the time to train?

 

Now Lavi's case is an interesting one. I can see exactly why she would want to train - that's the type of motivation I would be perfectly fine with.

 

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about: a system where it's not the norm, but consists of special cases, which are properly motivated. Something like the Talent system, where you have to apply for it, and give good reasons.

[Eqwina]

I really look at this from two ways seeing as I have an AS with a WS and obviously because of the WY.

 

I have to tell you that I NEVER was happy with, or agreed with the decision to raise the AS Weapon Score. I felt that it was too far out of line for the books. That being said, I can say that most AS would probably like to know one end of a weapon from another. That does not mean everyone would, but I think they should be allowed the opportunity. To use the example Taei made, yes the AS can make a blade out of thin air, but what good does it do them if they cannot use it.

 

The Reds and the Greens have more reason than others to wants to train with weapons, but as for the other Ajah's I do not think they should be able to do much more than learn physical fitness, basic weapons, and perhaps on speciality weapon if they wanted to. Like throwing knives or a staff.

[U4ea]

I won't speak for other Ajahs, since I have more experience being Green than anything else. *shrugs*

 

My opinions:

 

1- Keep in mind that just because someone is Green doesn't necessarily mean she has a warder (or ten) to protect her. Knowledge of how to defend herself with sharp, pointy things is a skill any trained soldier at this time would have.

 

2- As an AS with a WS over 5 and approval to go to 7 or 8, I'm not a particularly big fan of not being allowed to attain it. Considering this is something that requires BOTH DL's approvals, I think it'll be easy enough to control it. I don't have to worry about my warder being lower than me, since Kyn's WAY over anything I'll ever be able to reach there. And honestly, how many of those who COULD do it have actually done it? I think that, in itself, helps govern it.

 

3- When I went through the raising process (6 years ago! OUCH!), the WS of 5 was required before you could petition. However, I did it AFTER I finished all my other req's, rather than in the middle of all the other req's. Perhaps we could make that standard, as well? I'm ok with dropping it to a 2 or 3, but I think it should remain a requirement for a Green.

 

4- The main reason I was given for why Greens need a WS (again, a million years ago) was simply this: What happens to a soldier who is used to taking care of thing with "magic" when she's cut off from it? No soldier in their right mind would ever dump all of their training into a single method of fighting for that very reason. In our case, we simply know enough about our sword to be able to defend ourselves in the event that what we're more used to having is taken away.

 

5- I think this is getting blown WAY out of proportion. Like Taei said, it's not like we'll ever get a WS high enough to be a Master. In fact, we'll never get a score high enough to make it to Tower Guard, which is the first rank where you can bond someone from the Warder's Div, anyway. So, again, as long as we don't go higher than 10 (and then only with some serious reasons behind it), you'll never have to worry about being higher in WS than your warder. Therefore, the Warder will ALWAYS be better at it than you.

[Eqwina]

Hmm.. I am not seeing anything blown out of proportion, its opinions.  :D

 

To me it is not so much a matter of anyone having a higher WS than the Warders,or FL, orBothR or whomever. I have just always felt that in the books there was no real mention of this, and so we should regulate it here. Though I still stand by the point that no AS should have a WS above 7 as that is the trainee level. *shrugs*

 

Now that the topic has come up, I would like to look at (if we can) revamping the Aes Sedai WS rank advancement.

 

WS0 - WS1: Meeting the mentor, Weapon Selection/Handling/Care of weapons-Good as is

 

WS1 - WS2: Basic Physical overview: Basic Fitness, Basic Movement - Good as is

 

WS2 - WS3: Survival This involves a short trip out of Tar Valon to learn about the use of herbs, weapons and basic survival skill. A request can be made to the MoT to do the AS OP wilderness training instead. Rayne Sedai has written this out, the thread will have to be approved by the MoT before awarding WS. Good as Is

 

WS3 - WS4: Basic Weapon Handling: an introduction to the basic forms. A spar can be included in this lesson, main objective is to become acquinted with the forms as they can be found on the Gaidin website. Beginner forms This is where I start to dislike the reqs. I think that IF an AS wants to train in the yards that she may want to choose a single weapon or perhaps only 2 to focus on at this point. In my mind it is more likely to be knives or a staff, but if she wants to learn a sword that is possible to.

 

WS4 - WS5: A choice of one of these options:

 

A difficult assignment set by the mentor where the AS/Accepted is forbidden from using the OP.

A trip that seems non-training related, only OOC we know it is part of training. This can only be done by AS as Accepted could not leave the Tower alone. The Sister would encounter trouble and use her training to fend this off. Maybe she can't use the OP? (scared, cut off, shielded)

A spar with a trainee of WS 3-6, have the outcome be random and make sure to have a few rounds in the spar to cover all the basic forms and the things you have learnt. Can also be with Aes Sedai who has WS5.

Create your own RP that will reflect all that you've learned. Needs Staff approval from MoT.

 

WS5-WS6 The Open Road - Aes Sedai organized an RP in a hostile (to AS) area. A conflict occurs to which the Aes Sedai must choose to battle either with OP (and reveal herself), with a weapon or try to find a more peaceful way out of the situation. How well does the Aes Sedai handle this situation? Must encounter 2 PCs from another division,(Min 16 posts for the entire RP)

 

 

WS6-WS7 Quid Pro Quo - An Aes Sedai and/or Tower Guard (Warder is okay!) is sent on a mission. They are placed in a situation where they must rely solely on their WY training and the help of the other. (How well do they work together? If OP is used, what are the consequences? Do they still risk it?)Must include 3 other PCs.(Min 18 posts for entire RP)

 

WS7-WS8 Tactics & Defense - The Aes Sedai learns about tactics and how to defend 'home base' based on terrain and available resources and demonstrates some proficiency in both.May be a field or research RP.(Min 18 posts for Entire RP.)

 

WS8-WS9 A choice of one of these options: (Min 20 Posts)

 

Borderland Assistance - The Aes Sedai will spend 1 year IC assisting Borderland defenses.Must include Shadowspawn training & Borderland Survival.Must include 3 PCs outside the White Tower Division (only 1 Warders Yard PC Allowed)

A Choice Made- The Aes Sedai encounters a situation where she is unable to use the OP and her warder/Tower Guard is injured, she must then use her skills to save her own Warder or the Tower guard.Must include 1 PC outside the White Tower Division

WS9-WS10Create your own RP that shows how your character is developing because of the training in the Warder Yard, weaponry, or the art of war in general.Must be approved by the WT and WY Staff before start of RP. Must include 1 PC outside the WY and WT Divisions.(Min 30 posts for entire RP)

 

[Wayward_fool]

HOLA!!! I MADE IT!!! I'm here now. Let me work out my thoughts and respond properly.

 

Just wanted you to know I have access here now and I've read your thoughts and I have some of my own and am too muddle brained to get everything sorted out. Love ya all FELLOW AJAH HEAD PEOPLE!

 

*bounces*

[Mystica]

I have to say I'm with Eqwina on this. In the books, Aes Sedai as a rule consider weapon usage beneath them. Excepting the odd Sister getting some one-on-one training from her own personal Warder, there is not a single hint in the books anywhere that Sisters train in weapons. At all. They don't consider being cut off from the Source, as that line of thinking is too horrible to contemplate. Every time they linger on the thought of being stilled they quickly steer their thoughts away from it. They don't 'want' to know. Greens in the book die in battle just like every other Sister. There is no indication that they use weapons of any sort, but indeed are more battle leaders, pointing their warders where they want them while using the OP as their own weapon.

 

There definately is no indication of Reds ever training weapons. Given the book Reds' disdain for anything that is even remotely male, they'd shudder at the thought of taking any form of lesson from a man. Any man. No matter how good he may be. Furthermore, Reds more than any other have a stubbornly excessive pride in their own superiority as Aes Sedai. They would never stoop to the level of a mere soldier, wielding swords or daggers. It would simply be beneath them beyond the point of thought.

 

Personally, I don't see any need for any AS to have a weapon strength. Just because they can stick a knife into a careless body doesn't make them proficient fighters when facing a fair knife fight. Their instinct would automatically kick in and that instinct in an AS is to reach for the Source, not the blade. That's what Warders are for. Or Tower Guards.

 

As for Novices and Accepted....... HELL NO!

No way that they would EVER in a million gazillion ages be allowed by ANY Aes Sedai to wield a weapon.

 

 

But that's just my opinion based on the books. *shrugs*

[Wayward_fool]

Alright, here are my thoughts.

 

1) No Aes Sedai in the book ever trained in weapons. But by the scale we're using we might have people having scores below 5. Anything above would require REALLY special circumstances. That's the whole point of having Warders I supposed. Or you'd see alot more of them not being worried by Forkroot Tea. No Saidar? Nevermind, out comes the sword. Swish, swish, DIE SCUM!

 

*ahem*

 

2) That being said, I really don't think we should put TOO many restrictions on our Novices and Accepted. Simply because it puts off activity. We need more active people who are willing to do creative things with their characters. When it's all "you can't do this" and "you can't do that" and "do this before you can do that" it gets boring. And seeing how excited the novices can be about the current Rps, it's definitely encouraging.

 

3) How can we put a positive twist to this? How can we encourage activity with this? I'm suggesting Rping actual encounters which require weapons. I don't know what yet. I find activity always increases when RPs involve madness like danger and actual fighting and stuff. People wanna show off their skills and stuff in such things. Having a weapon skill would be cool for this.

 

4) Is we implement a proper system how can we use it to improve activity? I like activity…

 

My cents. I’m new, so please don’t beat me up.

 

Unless it’s in a naughty way. *winks*

 

[Elgee]

I've started this discussion at the Red Ajah, and I'm going to repeat most of what I said there.

 

Let me start off by saying that all your opinions, but ESPECIALLY those that DISagree with me, are much appreciated and have given me great food for thought. I’ve already changed my personal opinion from “any WS for AS is a damn idiotic idea and totally implausible” to “oh my yes – ok obviously some would come to the Tower having already gotten some, or would have a really good reason to train once they’ve become AS”.

 

Let me tell you a bit about my mission, before we move on to this specific matter. As I’ve posted around, and as approved by the Admins, this is the basics:

 

The PSW is a Portal Stone world based on the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. Any characters and RPs in the PSW are expected to conform to what would be plausible or a logical extrapolation, based on the WoT books. This includes the behaviour of Aes Sedai, to a lesser extent that of Accepted, and also the relationships between Novices, Accepted and Aes Sedai.

 

Obviously, character weaknesses make for more interesting RPs, and the Light knows Aes Sedai are not perfect! However, Aes Sedai make EXTREME sacrifices to gain the shawl, and only more so thereafter. They WANT to be Aes Sedai, more than anything else. Moreover, they have to have “the right stuff” in order to be allowed to go through the Arches and the Rings. Those who couldn’t “cut it”, would have been put out of the Tower and most likely joined the Kin. Anyone who has made it to a position of authority, like Sitter, Ajah Head, MoN, etc, would be especially determined, intelligent and dedicated to the Tower. Bear that in mind when you make your character's weaknesses.

 

 

Now, I am not infallible. I can be wrong. In fact, I can be a total dumb-ass ignoramus at times, just like everyone else. Just because someone stuck a DL sticker on my forehead doesn’t suddenly make me an omnipotent god with an infallible memory for all the rules. If you disagree with me, say so, and give me evidence or a logical argument to the contrary. I will ALWAYS listen with an open mind. And just because I have disagreed with your previous 29 arguments, doesn’t mean that I’ll disagree with this one. In the end, I’ll take all opinions on board, and make the decision I think will be best for the WT and the PSW. That might mean that sometimes I’ll go WITH the majority, and sometimes I will not.

So … anyway, now we’ve gotten that out the way, let’s move on to specifics.

 

Here is something someone said at the Reds, which I then responded to:

... to have the same options available to them as that of any other Channeller on the forums?

 

Kin can have WS up to 10. Asha'man can have WS up to 10, Freelander channelers can have WS up to 10, and now you want to restrict the Aes Sedai from what every other division has? The ability to achieve it is Harder than ANY other division and yet you want to restrict them even more?

 

... the Option ... available to ALL Aes Sedai should the PLAYER choose. You don't want your Red to have WS 10, don't apply to train. Don't screw with the chances for others simple because you personally don't like it.

 

It's all about equal opportunity. ...

 

“AS to have the same options available as that of any other Channeller”

“Equal opportunity”

 

Let’s take those two things you mentioned specifically, and examine them from the other side. Which channellers do we have?

 

Black Tower: They train extensively with the OP, more than anyone else. They also train with weapons, though their average maximum seems to be 10.

Their handicaps:

1) they are feared and reviled, and up until the amnesty, gentled as soon as found, if not killed.

2) The Taint is pretty much the biggest handicap there is. Not only do they suffer terribly physically, but they also go raving insane.

3) They are pushed to the limits and beyond, causing a very high rate of death

4) Their only option (by decree of the Dragon) is to become living weapons for TG

5) They cannot train to a very high WS without very good motivation

6) They must rely solely on themselves – no Warders to “feed off” or protect them.

 

Damane: Their OP training seems to be better than that of AS, in some instances.

Their handicaps:

1) They are slaves, with absolutely no free will or choice

2) They are abused, both physically and mentally

3) The only Weaves they can learn, are those taught to them by their Suldams. (No Healing, for instance)

4) They cannot defend themselves in any way, unless they are linked to a Suldam, and said Suldam allows it

5) They most certainly won’t be allowed anywhere near a weapon

6) They can’t even rely on themselves, as they have no free will -  no Warders to “feed off” or protect them.

 

The Kin: At least some of them would most probably train with weapons, since they’re not allowed to channel openly to defend themselves. (Interesting note: there are no Kin with WS)

Their handicaps:

1) Not allowed, according to the Rules of the Kin, to channel openly (especially not where they can get caught out)

2) Not allowed to explore the OP further than they’ve been taught, officially

3) Not allowed to have relationships

4) Must disappear and reinvent themselves every few years to prevent exposure

5) Living in fear of being discovered by the AS

6) No formal system of Weapons training, like that provided by the WY or BT  is available to them

7) They must rely solely on themselves – no Warders to “feed off” or protect them.

 

Wise Ones: Greatly revered amongst their people. All Aiel are taught some fighting techniques. Many Wise Ones could have gained quite an impressive WS before becoming apprentices, probably more so than any other group of Channellers (especially if they were Maidens before).

Their handicaps:

1) Firmly discouraged from using physical force. Their weapons are even taken and melted down once they become apprentices. RPs where they fight with anything other than their wits or the OP, would be incredibly scarce.

2) Wise Ones who can channel and those who can’t are all on equal footing. Channelling isn’t really a major part of their “duties” or modus operandi.

3) They are disregarded by almost everyone other than Aiel.

4) They must rely solely on themselves – no Warders to “feed off” or protect them.

 

Windfinders:

Their handicaps:

1) They are subservient to the Sailmistresses, etc

2) They must rely solely on themselves – no Warders to “feed off” or protect them.

 

I could go on, but quite frankly I don’t see the point, so I’ll just move on to what advantages Aes Sedai have over all these groups:

1) They are trained quite extensively (though some groups are better in some areas, none best them overall)

2) They are either revered, respected or feared enough throughout Randland (including the Aiel, up until recently) that their word is pretty much law. Even the Commander of the CotL would come if the Amyrlin summoned him.

3) They can quite openly channel pretty much wherever they want, except Amadicia and Illian/Tear (can’t remember which now)

4) Not only can they (almost always) openly channel to defend themselves, they are also the only group who have that ENORMOUS extra benefit, namely Warders. Just because some choose to not Bond (which is quite few, btw!), they all have that option, apart from the Reds (until recently).

 

Now, look at all of that, and then tell me HONESTLY which group is the LEAST disadvantaged? So some groups can have a higher weapons score than AS. So frigging what? AS have many advantages over THEM. Why not just disband the Warders altogether and say “Sisters are doing it for themselves.” Or even say that all Channellers should be allowed to bond Warders.

 

Everything is always flexible, to a lesser or larger degree, of course. The problem has come in (especially with the WT), that over the years, the rules were stretched, then bent, then broken, then changed (or even worse – they weren’t changed, they were simply ignored) - until things got so far out of hand that intervention had to come from the top. I now have the task of setting things right. Some people are inevitably going to be upset by that. That’s unfortunate, and will be avoided where possible, but the needs and rights of the majority have to supersede those of a few individuals.

 

What are the needs / rights of the majority? To determine that, let’s think of WHY people want to RP at DM. I’d say they've read the books, and think: damn, I so want to RP being an AS / Asha'man / Wise One / insert type of character of choice here.

Now they come here, and expect to be able to RP those types AS THEY WERE IN THE BOOKS, not "well, I'd love to RP a Wise One, but she must be able to fight with a sword. " ... that's just non-sensical, and I'm pretty sure NOT what 99% of those people will come here expecting to find.

 

As someone so succinctly put it: Players have a choice on which characters they want to play and they can play them all if they want. But if you CHOOSE to play a character that is characterized by certain abilities and NOT others then don't start whining that you want those other abilities for that character too. They know what they choose.  There are no One Power wielding, Aiel spear throwing, Seanchan guarded Ogier Blademasters.  Deal with it.

 

It all basically comes down to being creative within the restrictions of a specific character type.  If they don't have that creativity, then it's not our fault and we cannot change the basic system of the PSW just for them.  The Revolutions board is there for anyone who wants to take the basic idea of WoT RPing, and go outside the borders with it.  (That has a grand total of 18 threads in the past YEAR, btw, of which 7 went over 1 page.)

 

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All that being said, and as I said right at the top, I can now see how having a WS is plausible, in some instances.

 

I don't see that the Reds should be allowed to have one higher than anyone else, though, and any WS would need a very good justification. Novices and Accepted doing weapons training isn't justified in any way, that I can see.

[Lavinya]

Some things are the way they are, because that is how they always have been. Like Accepted were allowed to train in the WY up to a maximum of 5. I think a few who went green did it that way, became interested in battle and tactics as a lead up to choosing the Ajah.

 

I don't think anyone save the Greens should have a higher WS than anyone else.

 

I think 5 is a perfectly acceptable cap for all other Ajahs, and that 7 is also ample for Greens. It's enough to equal a raw tower guard recruit, ie a just promoted trainee. Not too high, but high enough to be adequate.

 

If anyone wants a higher WS than this, I think they would need some pretty impressive reasoning. But maybe, a good way to make this change is to allow for applying to go higher. I'm not saying it would be easy and that anyone could attain it, but that way the option is there for anyone who really needs/wants the higher score. Say, once a Green reached her cap of 7, she had some really plausible and pressing IC need to go higher. Let's say she watched all her warders cut down while she was shielded or something. If she'd been that little more skilled, she may have been a help. Say that her character develops a new resolve to train for when she's helpless. (Or something, I like to think that anyone who seriously wants a higher WS is going to have a whole lot better reasoning than I can think of off the top of my head lol). Let them apply officially, and have both the WT DL and WY DL look it over and decide if there is reason enough, and let them have the power to approve or deny. That way, it's only in extreme circumstances and is more plausible. It's entirely possible that out of 200 Aes Sedai in the tower, 5 or ten of them had trained to a level 8 or 9 WS ability in their lifetime.

 

So, my proposal in summary (and it is just a suggestion, please pick apart/change/add to at will)

 

No Novices may train

Accepted may APPLY to train with good IC reason, up to a maximum of WS3 (so no more than basic care handling of weapons essentially)

All Ajahs EXCEPT for Green may train to a maximum of WS 5

Greens may train to a maximum of WS 7

Higher scores are rare and are only allowed to be trained for after applying to the WT & WY DLs, with extremely good IC reasons and purpose for the higher score. Even with special permissions, Greens may train no higher than 10, and all other ajahs no higher than 7

 

Something like that. I'd say too, that the training for the higher levels be very difficult to achieve, so that people are going to really really want it to even attempt to apply and complete the reqs.

 

And that's my two cents and then some :)

 

 

Elgee, what makes you so awesome is that you listen regardless of who the opinion belongs to or how contrary it is to your own. I know I have disagreed with a few times lately and you have always listened and thought and made educated decisions after taking everything on board. Sign of a good leader, my dear friend *snuggle*

[Wayward_fool]

Hmmmm... Interesting points everyone. I like how this Hall works. Far less, "I say you do this, means you do this, MORON!!" than some other orgs. *ahem*

 

Anyway... regarding Elgee's point. I think it's really strange that people come to the WT expecting to have a WS. I know there ARE Aes Sedai who have a history in the past with some sort of weapons training, but think about it. Someone who is in the WT for more than 100 years, hardly getting a chance to train, hardly getting a chance to practice with their swords... even if you started with a 10, you'd probably have a 2 by the time you are a fully Aes Sedai. Novices and Accepted are not allowed to train weapons anyway. And Aes Sedai would look absolutely undignified training in public, sweat pouring down their face, being trounced by the Warder they are training with. So I really don't see how it’s realistic for them to maintain an image of Aes Sedai serenity and still train with swords. And that translates once again to your skills deproving over time.

 

So that being said, I think we may think about implementing a more flexible system. Novices and Accepted coming to the tower, feel free to have some sorta WS. Capping possibly at 5. I’m guessing everyone will choose a 5. *rolls eyes* But if you want to be an Aes Sedai, your WS will deprove as you spend more time training the OP instead of you weapon. An Aes Sedai would likely not have much of a score left by the time she’s done, really. I really don’t see any Aes Sedai spending time at weapon training. Think you’re a depressed soul who can’t survive without a weapon? Big deal… your Arches and Aes Sedai testing should have been prove enough that you’ll need to be really strong of mind and soul to survive. Relying on your sword… not likely to happen after the emotional and physical pain you’ve gone through. Otherwise everyone coming out of the Arches and the Aes Sedai training would have jumped on their swords. Re-read Moiraine’s testing. You really think if she were not having an Aes Sedai mindset that she’d be happy without a sword? Unlikely.

 

*shrugs*

 

Like I said, let the Accepted and Novices come with WS. But if they wanna be AS, they’re gonna be needing to sacrifice themselves some. Even Green legends like Cadsuane did without weapons. What makes you so desperate and special that you’d need to have it? I say cap it at about 5 or 6. Anything higher would require regular practicing and high levels of being beaten undignified to the ground by a trainer. You want that? Give up your shawl then. That’s just not being Aes Sedai enough.

 

*grins* Just more cents from me.

 

[Elgee]

Lol *snuggles Lavi & Boopsie*

 

You're both coming up with very interesting ways to do this.

 

Boopsie, I never even thought of the fact that without practice, those who come to the Tower with WS will deteriorate. Good point!

 

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons: I'm presuming that at some stage we're going to open the novice book to older ladies (to keep in line with what happened in the books). Now it's MUCH more likely that at least some of those older gals will have a higher weapons score. How would we handle that? I'm thinking the practicalities of 2 points in particular:

 

1) How high would they be allowed to have? Let's say we have a woman who was a guard, then asked to be tested et voila - can learn to channel. Her score would likely have been higher than 10, say.

2) Would they have to RP out having gained that Weapon Score? Right off the top of my head, maybe they would have to make her a Kin character first, do the requisite WT there, then come to the WT?

 

I don't want to get into that topic right now (of older characters), but I don't want whatever our system is going to be to preclude such a scenario. Ie let's make like a boyscout and be prepared.

 

(Oh yes - if you want to start talking about older characters now too, I can make a new topic, or you can  :D)

[Wayward_fool]

Hmmm... older women who enter the Tower? Hmmm... interesting question.

 

Well... unfortunately you ARE going to end up with Godders if you allow both. To make it a balanced system, even if it's not logical, make them use their WS scores to buy their OP scores. The higher you want your OP skill, the lower your WS. We might need to do random generating.  I’m thinking in terms of the skill scores we generate. It’ll be like the OP spread over the elements. You can choose how you wanna allocate your skill score. We give you a value… say… 36. You can either have all for your OP… or you can buy WS points with them. Which means… each WS costs 2 Op scores. Up to a max of 7. So if ya wanna max your WS, you end up with an OP score of 36 - (2 x 7) = 22. So yeah, you good at slash-slash, but when it comes to OP. You is sucking badz. And conversely, the more WS you sacrifice the higher your OP. It's a freedom of choice.  As long as at any point in time your total skill buying ability is 36. We can work on actual values later.

 

Did you understand that? Well…

 

Think of it this way... it's like any other skill. It's practically impossible to be very skilled at 2 totally differing things. You can focus on one, and have the other stagnant at a certain level or try your best to balance it all out. So if you wanna learn to play with swords... go ahead. You won't have time to train as a channeler, so your skill with the OP will go down. (New channeler) Or you may wanna focus on developing your OP skills at the WT, which means you WS will go down. That way, both skills are balanced.

 

Anyone got any problems with this?

 

[Kara_J]

So yeah, you good at slash-slash, but when it comes to OP. You is sucking badz.

 

 

:D Boopsie I love you! That just made my night!

 

But yes, I agree with you and can see your point. I think that'd be a fair way of doing things :)

 

[Eqwina]

Wow *is shocked* I NEVER would have thought to do that..buying OP with WS. *grins and loves on her new ajah head*

[Taymist]

I've been having a think about this since you PMd me Elgee.

 

I don't see any need to complicate the WS system for possible "older novices". Let me illustrate. I had a merchant's guard join the BotRH. She started at WS5... which is the cap for AS that's being suggested. Previous experience of some kind does not an advanced swordsman make.

 

So if that same merchant's guard had become a novice, she would, as someone already mentioned, have NO time for weapon training. What skills she did have would be deteriorated by the time she became AS... we're talking many years after all....and additionally be of little interest given her dedication to the OP and the Tower.

 

I think caps of 5 (all) and 7 (Greens) is more than adequate, particularly given the option to apply for higher IF a very very good reason ICly is provided and approved. Such cases should be really rare but should also be available (and should be honoured for those already approved like Lor or Lavy).

 

If Novices aren't allowed to train weapons, then they don't need a WS no matter what their past skills are. Every fibre of their being will be concentrated on WT training in the OP. By the time they reach Accepted, they would still start from scratch like anyone else given they were not previously Warder trained, a very different matter to training from elsewhere. Just as my guard has to be trained in the Band's way of doing things.

 

Hopefully this makes some sense... basically, I think WS should rest primarily in the Warders' Yard. It's become an issue for AS that it should never have become. As long as approval rests with the 2 DLs and requirements are tough for higher scores, it should be a simple matter to regulate this. I don't think you need to hugely overhaul the system or introduce new calculations.

 

 

 

[Lavinya]

I agree with Tay. Simple is better and easier than totally changing everything. And the proposal isn't over the top and is plausible. Probably the only thing that would need really long looking at is the reequirements to gain the higher scores, and making them attainable but only after a LOT of hard work and seriously good reason, and approval from the two DLs.

[Wayward_fool]

Well... it would be GREAT if we could keep it simple. It would DEFINITELY be great. The less work the better, I always say. But what Elgee is bringing up the the fact people are really seldom simple and are probably not going to be happy about the simple system. The whole point why we're having this discussion is the fact that we've been having the simple system for AGES, and it hasn't worked out as well as we thought it would be.

 

I mean, what's the point of this discussion? What you have proposed is what we have now. Novices, no weapon training, no WS. Accepted, same thing. Aes Sedai, work REALLY hard and then get higher scores if someone on the demi-god level approves it.

 

*shrugs* Like I said, the less work the better. If we can keep it as it is and everyone's happy, then let's do that. But if we have to revisit this issue every few months, then we need to look into this. I'm new at this being Ajah head thing, so I have no idea what the previous problem was to be honest. But Elgee seems pretty adamant about improving the system, so I'm just offering my two cents worth. And hoping to be worth my keep as Ajah head. Heh.

 

So, a summary. What we’re basically suggesting are two different ways of doing it:

 

1) We set out OP skills as a general skill score for buying OP points or WS points. WTers are free to distribute their skill points (Up to a max of 5 or 7) as they please, but as their WS goes up their OP Skill goes down.  To do: Figure out how to tweak the scores.

2) We just keep things as they are. But restrict Novices and Accepted to having no WS until they’re AS and then figure out how to set standards for higher WS. (Which we should start discussing?) Did I get this right? To do: Figure out the higher WS.

 

That’s about it in terms of options. I think.

 

Thus speakth the First Weaver. *nods and bows*

 

[Elgee]

I'm glad people are thinking about this  ;D

 

Ok here's what we currently have (and if I got anything wrong, please correct me - I've not had to deal with any request to do weapons training since I became DL ... almost a year ago now? [which tells me that most WTowers aren't interested in doing it, which led me to thinking why the hell do we have this system in the first place!):

 

Any White Tower character (Aes Sedai or even Accepted) can train up to WS 5 (no justification needed).

Any AS can train up to WS 7 (no justification needed). 

Any Red or Green can train up to WS 10 (must have permission from both DLs).

 

Now, as several people have stated (and I believe), training with Weapons is simply not something the average AS would even contemplate. Accepted certainly would not have the time or the freedom to train. And just to make it clear, I'm talking about BOOK characters, not the scewed (IMO) system that's developed here on DM.

 

Some hold the opinion that Greens should be allowed to train further, because they're the Battle Ajah and what happens if their Warder(s) get injured/killed. As far as I'm concerned, that's why Greens are allowed to Bond more Warders than any of the other Ajahs. I'm going to set aside the matter of the Greens till Lor is well enough to join us again, though.

 

So this is what I tentatively propose, taking in account all of your opinions:

 

1) Only full Aes Sedai can do weapons training, up to WS 5 (justification needed / not needed - to be determined).

2) Should we implement the "older novices" idea, they could come to the Tower with a WS they earned in another Div, but will lose WS levels for every (number of years to be determined) they are in training to become AS.

3) Reds may not train any higher than anyone else (they can Bond Asha'man now, so don't have that excuse any more)

4) Greens - to be determined

5) Any AS can train up to WS 7 / 10 (to be determined) - both DLs must approve it, and will only be granted in exceptional circumstances. 

 

What I find interesting, is that the one class that would seem the most useful to AS (especially Greens!) is on level 7-8:

WS7-WS8: Tactics & Defense – The Aes Sedai learns about tactics and how to defend ‘home base’ based on terrain and available resources and demonstrates some proficiency in both.May be a field or research RP.(Min 18 posts for Entire RP.)

And another one for Greens, which is on level 8-9:

Borderland Assistance – The Aes Sedai will spend 1 year IC assisting Borderland defenses.Must include Shadowspawn training & Borderland Survival.Must include 3 PCs outside the White Tower Division (only 1 Warders Yard PC Allowed)

 

To me, those 2 seems like something all Greens should do, rather than learning to fight with a weapon, if they're going to do something like this at all.

[U4ea]

I'm fuzzy with meds and my back hurts, so this is going to be short. I hope it still makes sense, though...

 

1- I really don't want to start the "if you want more swords, bond them" argument, since Warders can be slim pickin' sometimes (there aren't many active ones, atm... including me). I think we've justified Greens having a WS.

 

2- Given this discussion, I can agree that just about everyone BUT the Greens should probably have a general idea about strategy and how to use a small pointy thing without getting themselves hurt, but a WS isn't necessary. Anyone wishing to have one should need serious IC justification for it. Moreover, anything above 5 should have to be approved by both DL's.

 

3- I thought everyone was capped at 5? I had to get permission and apply to be able to raise mine over 5 and that was just... a year ago? two maybe? When did that get raised over 7?

 

 

I would propose that:

 

a) any Ajah could train up to a 5 without outstanding circumstances (but would still need approval from the DL)

b) Greens (or would-be Greens) can train up to 5 without approval from the DL (we'd can make this part of the after-raising requirements to be more in line with the Accepted not having time to play theme).

c) only Greens can train above a 5, but need approval from both D/Ls. The cap being 7/10 (I don't really care which number we decide on, oddly enough- maybe it's the meds?)

d) Any application for a higher WS will be reviewed, but only those with extenuating circumstances will be given approval.

 

 

Since I think I'm the only person who even has permission to go up to 7, atm, the only person I'm hurting with these rules is myself. And, honestly, I haven't had time to go higher than 6 since I started.

 

Also, perhaps we need to realign what threads are needed for the WS we're offering to better fit what the AS taking them would need. I agree that not everyone would need to know Sword Forms, so perhaps we can save those kinds of specific trainings for the 6+ club. I like the idea of the two req's you posted being lower on the req list, too. "Defending home base" is something even Moiraine did with the kids WAY back in the Eye of the World, so I'm with you there.

 

 

 

 

Drug-induced ponderance:

Perhaps Battle Weaves should be a part of the WS training for Greens? We only teach it after their first petition has been denied and, at least to my fuzzy head, it makes sense that it fits the idea of battle training.

 

Drug-induced ponderance #2:

Perhaps instead of a WEAPON SCORE for Aes Sedai, we could have something more in line with a "battle readiness score." Incorporate defensive weaves and some weapons training, but more survival skills (since we're talking about being in the woods surrounded by beasts who want to kill you and eat you for dinner) than weapon-based training. 

 

 

Drug-induced ponderance #3:

I'm not sure any of that made sense, so I'm going to put my head on a pillow and hope it makes more sense tomorrow.

 

Drug-induced ponderance #4:

This wasn't short, was it? Egads, I'm loopy!

 

 

 

[Taymist]

I like Lor's thoughts (drug induced or not  ;) ). She makes a very valid point about lack of Warders to bond for the Greens.

 

The only thing I would add is that I don't think any AS at all should be learning Sword Forms at any time. No AS was ever recorded as being a Blademaster or having learned the Forms and it takes too much away from the Warders. Knowing the Forms in a general sense is plausible for Greens perhaps but actually training in them rather than basic swordplay is just too advanced and way beyond what any Sister would ever need to know imo. The emphasis really needs to be more on the battle tactics/battle weaves side.

[Elgee]

*Wants some of Lor's drugs*  ;D

 

The only thing I would add is that I don't think any AS at all should be learning Sword Forms at any time. No AS was ever recorded as being a Blademaster or having learned the Forms and it takes too much away from the Warders. Knowing the Forms in a general sense is plausible for Greens perhaps but actually training in them rather than basic swordplay is just too advanced and way beyond what any Sister would ever need to know imo. The emphasis really needs to be more on the battle tactics/battle weaves side.

 

I agree with you, Tay, but I'm trying to find a middle ground here. I don't want to piss off people too much by just doing away with Weapons Training for AS completely.

 

 

Lor, I just want to check this bit with you:

 

2- Given this discussion, I can agree that just about everyone BUT the Greens should probably have a general idea about strategy and how to use a small pointy thing without getting themselves hurt, but a WS isn't necessary. Anyone wishing to have one should need serious IC justification for it. Moreover, anything above 5 should have to be approved by both DL's.

 

I'm confused - are you saying Greens should NOT have a general idea about strategy and weapons, but other Ajahs SHOULD? Or are you saying "everyone should have it, but ESPECIALLY the Greens? The last would make perfect sense to me.

 

3- I thought everyone was capped at 5? I had to get permission and apply to be able to raise mine over 5 and that was just... a year ago? two maybe? When did that get raised over 7?

 

I think it's been like that since before I joined here (Feb 2008). I don't recall Jade changing it since then, anyway. Time flies  :D

 

 

Also, perhaps we need to realign what threads are needed for the WS we're offering to better fit what the AS taking them would need. I agree that not everyone would need to know Sword Forms, so perhaps we can save those kinds of specific trainings for the 6+ club. I like the idea of the two req's you posted being lower on the req list, too. "Defending home base" is something even Moiraine did with the kids WAY back in the Eye of the World, so I'm with you there.

 

Drug-induced ponderance:

Perhaps Battle Weaves should be a part of the WS training for Greens? We only teach it after their first petition has been denied and, at least to my fuzzy head, it makes sense that it fits the idea of battle training.

 

Drug-induced ponderance #2:

Perhaps instead of a WEAPON SCORE for Aes Sedai, we could have something more in line with a "battle readiness score." Incorporate defensive weaves and some weapons training, but more survival skills (since we're talking about being in the woods surrounded by beasts who want to kill you and eat you for dinner) than weapon-based training. 

 

Those are very good ideas! I especially love Drug-induced ponderance #2  ;D

 

I've re-read the AS Training with Warders thing carefully, and I think that Lor's Battle Readiness Score is actually a much better description for it. Especially if some of those classes are shuffled around, so you have stuff like The Aes Sedai learns about tactics and how to defend ‘home base’ based on terrain and available resources and Borderland Assistance – The Aes Sedai will spend 1 year IC assisting Borderland defenses come before learning how to wield pointy things.

 

Here's a VERY rough draft of an idea:

 

For instance, if we have in level 1 to 5 something that would be useful to AS, like:

1) Survival: This involves a short trip out of Tar Valon to learn about the use of herbs, weapons and basic survival skill.

2) The Open Road – Aes Sedai organized an RP in a hostile (to AS) area. A conflict occurs to which the Aes Sedai must choose to battle either with OP (and reveal herself), with a weapon or try to find a more peaceful way out of the situation.

3) Tactics & Defense – The Aes Sedai learns about tactics and how to defend ‘home base’ based on terrain and available resources and demonstrates some proficiency in both.May be a field or research RP.

4) Defensive Weaves

5) Basic Battle Weaves

 

In level 6-7 we could have stuff like:

1)Borderland Assistance – The Aes Sedai will spend 1 year IC assisting Borderland defenses.Must include Shadowspawn training & Borderland Survival.

2) Advanced Battle Weaves

 

In level 8-10 we would have actual Weapons training, with sharp objects:

 

 

Eqwina, Lor, I'd appreciate it if especially you two have a look at it and tell me if that's a viable option (shifting those levels around). Here's the linky: http://whitetower.aliciawilkerson.com/?page_id=29

 

If we can do that, maybe we could then say something like the following:

all AS can do up to level 5

all Greens MUST do up to level 5

all Greens can do up to level 7

any AS who wants to go up to level 10 (where you learn what to do with the pointy stuff), and any non-Greens who want to go to level 7, must get permission from both DLs and must give a very good reason for it.

 

I don't want to put too much of a burden on the Warders, but luckily if we bring in the OP classes that would obviously be taught by AS.

 

Actually had a thought ... Lavi, some of those classes could be taught to Accepted, couldn't they? I think they're on the list, but since no-one has been willing to teach them, they've been a bit forgotten.

[Elgee]

Another thought (ok stop rolling your eyes ... seriously ... I often have thoughts on the 1st Sunday of the month!)

 

Anyhoo ... just thinking of Lavi's character who has quite good reasons for wanting to learn how to defend herself without the OP, but would not necessarily want to do all those battle tactics etc.

 

We could keep the old WS for AS system (or something like it), mostly to do with Weapons Training - that would be capped at 5, let's say, and would need permission from both DLs.

 

The BRS would then be a totally separate thing.

 

Just throwing that out there as a possible  :D