Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

If I remember the Brandon quote well... Shaidar Haran taught "some things" to Elza...

 

From

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,50624.0.html

 

27. Question How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?

27. Answer: Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

 

[dgd3]

Getting back to simple (I think) Q&A:

 

Does Rand still have possession of the sword (Laman's) that Aviendha gave to him?  The last concrete reference to it I can remember is in WH 33 "Blue Carp Street", but I don't have CoT or KoD on hand right now.

 

Does he still have the Dragon belt buckle she gave him?  Even though the sword holds more practical and historical value, I'd bet he values the belt buckle more, because she had it specially made for him from her own weapons.  (btw, was she completely making up an excuse for giving this to him in tFoH 4 "Twilight"? She aays it's because she's been ordered by the WO to give gifts to the three people she most hates.  We know she doesn't really hate him, but did she make up the whole story, or only the part about him being one of those three?  We know she later asks the WO to punish her for having told two lies that day, but not what those lies were.)

 

Anyway, speaking of Aviendha's weapons, have we ever seen her kill a human?  I know she's killed plenty of Shadowspawn, and because she's former FDM we assume she's killed people, but do we know for sure?  My intuition says yes, but I'm unable to recall any specific instance right this minute.  Probably facing the Seanchan or BA with Elayne...

 

EDIT: Just remembered Battle of Cairhein, where she and Egwene did some OP lightning blasts into Shaido positiions. So, to answer my own question, yes.

 

Finally, have we ever seen Min kill a human?  I don't think she has, though she's been caught up in several battles.  We know she fought Trollocs in tDR 5 "Nightmares Walking" and in KoD 19 "Vows", and she tried to off Semirhage in tGS 22 "The Last That Could Be Done", but we've never seen her actually kill anybody, AFAIK.

 

If this is true, is Min the only lead/important/POV character without blood on her hands?

[Aquarius]

Getting back to simple (I think) Q&A:

 

Does Rand still have possession of the sword (Laman's) that Aviendha gave to him?  The last concrete reference to it I can remember is in WH 33 "Blue Carp Street", but I don't have CoT or KoD on hand right now.

Not with him at all time, now that he has Justice, but I see no reason for him to discard Laman's sword. If only as a gift from Avi.

 

Does he still have the Dragon belt buckle she gave him?  Even though the sword holds more practical and historical value, I'd bet he values the belt buckle more, because she had it specially made for him from her own weapons.

Probably, yes.

 

 (btw, was she completely making up an excuse for giving this to him in tFoH 4 "Twilight"? She aays it's because she's been ordered by the WO to give gifts to the three people she most hates.  We know she doesn't really hate him, but did she make up the whole story, or only the part about him being one of those three?  We know she later asks the WO to punish her for having told two lies that day, but not what those lies were.)

Yes, that's totally an excuse. She's fighting two things at once : her visit to Rhuidean that told her that she was tied to Rand (I don't remember the specifics, sorry) and her love to Rand.

 

Anyway, speaking of Aviendha's weapons, have we ever seen her kill a human?  I know she's killed plenty of Shadowspawn, and because she's former FDM we assume she's killed people, but do we know for sure?  My intuition says yes, but I'm unable to recall any specific instance right this minute.  Probably facing the Seanchan or BA with Elayne...

 

EDIT: Just remembered Battle of Cairhein, where she and Egwene did some OP lightning blasts into Shaido positiions. So, to answer my own question, yes.

not with her own hands, with the One Power. However she probably had skirmishes with one Clan or another while she was a Maiden. Besides, when Egwene, Elayne and Nyneave are captured by some guys on the road to Tear, they are almost sold to a Myrhdral. Rhuarc, Avi and a bunch of Aiel attack the guys at the same time as the Girls turn the myrhdral into a torch. So she might have killed a darkfriend at that time.

 

 

Finally, have we ever seen Min kill a human?  I don't think she has, though she's been caught up in several battles.  We know she fought Trollocs in tDR 5 "Nightmares Walking" and in KoD 19 "Vows", and she tried to off Semirhage in tGS 22 "The Last That Could Be Done", but we've never seen her actually kill anybody, AFAIK.

No we haven't. We are repeated book after books that she's totally powerless in all the fights she gets into. She believes she's "not as good as Thom" but in fact, she's just useless.

 

If this is true, is Min the only lead/important/POV character without blood on her hands?

I'm not sure Nyneave has killed a human.

[yoniy0]

(btw, was she completely making up an excuse for giving this to him in tFoH 4 "Twilight"? She aays it's because she's been ordered by the WO to give gifts to the three people she most hates.  We know she doesn't really hate him, but did she make up the whole story, or only the part about him being one of those three?  We know she later asks the WO to punish her for having told two lies that day, but not what those lies were.)

Yes, that's totally an excuse. She's fighting two things at once : her visit to Rhuidean that told her that she was tied to Rand (I don't remember the specifics, sorry) and her love to Rand.

I disagree. The WO tell us of this custom when Aviendha is sent into Rhuidean:

"She must see them as trash," Seana said. "When she returns - if she returns - she will burn them and scatter the ashes. The metal she will give to a smith to make simple things. Not weapons. Not even a carving knife. Buckles, or pots, or puzzles for children. Things she will give away with her own hands when they are made."

Nevertheless, I believe that Aviendha was in fact lying to Rand, in that he wasn't one of the people she hated.

 

 

If this is true, is Min the only lead/important/POV character without blood on her hands?

I'm not sure Nyneave has killed a human.

No, I don't think she has. Nor did Elayne, IIRC.

[Durinax]

Aviendha did hate rand though, she hated him because she was afraid of her feelings for him and because she could not tell elayne about her feelings and she felt that rand was making her damage her honour

 

Elayne killed some seanchan when she tore apart her gateway

[shadowkiller_001]

Is there a prophecy related to Rand using Callandor in the LB?

I was thinking that Narishma would be the one to use callandor with two female channelers and that this would fit with the "who draws it out shall follow after" prophecy.

 

 

[Aquarius]

Elayne killed some seanchan when she tore apart her gateway

once again, not her own hands (not that she has any power in that area, that's what men are good for in her opinion) and more than that, she didn't blow up that gateway on purpose, there was no intention of killing.

 

(by the way, whe Aviendha DID unweave a gateway, was it Moridin or slayer that was in the stables looking at them ?)

[azrael.1289]

by the way, whe Aviendha DID unweave a gateway, was it Moridin or slayer that was in the stables looking at them ?

I think it was Moridin because we get his pov later when he is totally amazed that the new channelers are able to do something like that.

[Guest BaLefireP]

what are the differences between an A'dam and a Domination Band? Other the the Male Female thing.

[yoniy0]

what are the differences between an A'dam and a Domination Band? Other the the Male Female thing.

For one thing, the a'dam only lets you encourage obedience using mental punishment, while the Dominion Band completely strips away the target's free will. For another, we had a clue that with the Dominion Band, the tables might be turned after a prolonged period of use. And, of course, the Dominion Band requires two women to control a single man.

Can't think of any more differences right now, if anything else comes to mind I'll edit later (provided no one else beats me to the punch, that is).

[balefireruinssteaks]

Concerning ter'angreal, is the making of it determined by simply the substance used to make it?

 

I seem to remember Elayne being frustrated because she couldn't get the dream ter'angreal ring to look exactly like Coriannin's ring...she could not make the colors work exactly the same way or something.

 

Also...the Domination Band and the a'dam seem to be made out of two different substances and have two different effects - silver band/bracelet vs. darker metal used in the Domination Band.

 

I just wondered because I'm trying to envision the process by which a thing becomes a ter'angreal.  Like with the book ter'angreal...would Elayne start with a statue of a man with a book, or find a substance and then shape it into that as the ter'angreal takes form?

 

(I suppose this might not be a "simple question" heh)

[Never]

The old man that Mat meets, while fighting the Gholam, and that I really just can't remember the name of.. Olver loves him!

Anyways, is he Jain Farstrider?

[Sharaman]

The old man that Mat meets, while fighting the Gholam, and that I really just can't remember the name of.. Olver loves him!

Anyways, is he Jain Farstrider?

 

He calls himself Noel Charin and claims that he's (Jain Charin) Farstrider's cousin.

The consensus of opinion is that he is indeed Farstrider. 

 

[Bela_theDo]

my question will be about a little detail-about Siuan.

Back in FoH, when Siuan&co. entered to Salidar,and when Siuan was trying to manipulate the Salidar Six, she told them Rand had been in the Waste(and they sent Kiruna&Bera to search for him), but i dont remember if Moiraine sent a message to her or not. Can it be a mistake?

[CUBAREY]

I was thinking that Narishma would be the one to use callandor with two female channelers and that this would fit with the "who draws it out shall follow after" prophecy.

 

 

This prophecy may have long since have been forefilled. Rand Drew Callandor but left it in the Stone when he went to the Wate. Rand then sends Narishima to get the Sword from the Stone just prior to Rand fighting the Seanchen. There could be more to the prophecy but by it's own terms the preceding would literally forefill the prophecy.

[yoniy0]

Back in FoH, when Siuan&co. entered to Salidar,and when Siuan was trying to manipulate the Salidar Six, she told them Rand had been in the Waste(and they sent Kiruna&Bera to search for him), but i dont remember if Moiraine sent a message to her or not. Can it be a mistake?

Doesn't have to be. Siuan explains that she remembered the phrase 'the people of the dragon' refers to the Aiel, and that there were Aiel present at the Stone before Rand went missing. She might have gleaned that one out herself (or she might not, but it's not an inconsistency either way).

[greenman]

Would the three oaths affect asha'man channeling while linked to aes Sedai?

[yoniy0]

Would the three oaths affect asha'man channeling while linked to aes Sedai?

I don't see how. Unless their AS would make them comply (I can picture Merise forcing Narishma to live by them). Oh, but now that I think about that, you didn't mean Bonded, just Linked the normal way, right? Well, I don't see how.

[Sharaman]

In a voluntary circle, can one party (not the leader) unilaterally exit without permission from the person controlling flows?

If so, an AS sworn to the oaths could be forced to cut out, if she was in a circle that was violating the oaths.

If not, she would have to rationalise and tell herself it wasn't her fault, etc, or she'd choke to death.

Also what happens if one person in a circle suddenly dies/loses the source for some other reason such as being hit on the head?

Rand unfortunately KO-ed the whole bunch shielding him simultaneously at Dumai's Wells or else, I guess we'd know.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Would the three oaths affect asha'man channeling while linked to aes Sedai?

 

RJ stated this:

 

Q:  Would an Aes Sedai who has sworn the Three Oaths be able to link into a circle, but not lead it, that would be used to kill someone (not Shadowsworn or attacking)?

RJ:  No, an Aes Sedai wouldn't be able to join the circle or participate in any way with anything that was against the Oaths.

 

This suggests that the Oaths would interfere with a circle should the leader intend violence (whether the Aes Sedai was aware of it to begin with), which is supported by the fact that RJ stated that Aes Sedai damane are useless as weapons, despite the fact that we see Nynaeve channel Moghedian's power without her permission. The Oaths bind the channeling, not just the channeler.

 

In a voluntary circle, can one party (not the leader) unilaterally exit without permission from the person controlling flows?

 

No. This is made clear several times.

 

If not, she would have to rationalise and tell herself it wasn't her fault, etc, or she'd choke to death.

 

The 'choking' is the result of conflicting oaths. This is not what's at play here--the weaves would simply not form, whatever the leader intended. This does raise the question: does the Oath impinge on others in the link--as in whilst linked to a bound Aes Sedai one cannot make weapons unless threatened--or does it cause a break in the link--'no power supplied by this person can be contributed to this weave'

 

Also what happens if one person in a circle suddenly dies/loses the source for some other reason such as being hit on the head?

 

I don't know about what happens if they're unconcious--asleep Aes Sedai can still power a shield, though that is Spirit--but if they die their power disapears from the link. The link doesn't dissolve, they just lose the strength of the dead person.

[Sharaman]

Would the three oaths affect asha'man channeling while linked to aes Sedai?

RJ stated this:

Q:  Would an Aes Sedai who has sworn the Three Oaths be able to link into a circle, but not lead it, that would be used to kill someone (not Shadowsworn or attacking)?

RJ:  No, an Aes Sedai wouldn't be able to join the circle or participate in any way with anything that was against the Oaths.

This suggests that the Oaths would interfere with a circle should the leader intend violence (whether the Aes Sedai was aware of it to begin with), which is supported by the fact that RJ stated that Aes Sedai damane are useless as weapons, despite the fact that we see Nynaeve channel Moghedian's power without her permission. The Oaths bind the channeling, not just the channeler.

 

Clear enough. But in that case, if she can't leave the circle voluntarily, as per your statement below, will the circle collapse? Or will the power continue to flow through her, with her contributing zilch but keeping her connection open because she can't exit?   

 

In a voluntary circle, can one party (not the leader) unilaterally exit without permission from the person controlling flows?

No. This is made clear several times.

 

References please?

 

 

If not, she would have to rationalise and tell herself it wasn't her fault, etc, or she'd choke to death.

 

The 'choking' is the result of conflicting oaths. This is not what's at play here--the weaves would simply not form, whatever the leader intended. This does raise the question: does the Oath impinge on others in the link--as in whilst linked to a bound Aes Sedai one cannot make weapons unless threatened--or does it cause a break in the link--'no power supplied by this person can be contributed to this weave'

 

Yes, same as if she's Ko-ed. Or dead. Thing is, in analogy with electric circuits, does she continue to be a conductor even if she ceases to be a power source.

 

Also what happens if one person in a circle suddenly dies/loses the source for some other reason such as being hit on the head?

 

I don't know about what happens if they're unconcious--asleep Aes Sedai can still power a shield, though that is Spirit--but if they die their power disapears from the link. The link doesn't dissolve, they just lose the strength of the dead person.

 

Is this referenced from the WH cleansing at Shadar Logoth? Kumira died in Verin's circle and Eben in Daighan's.

But whatever happened to the circles , happened offstage. Or is there any other reference to this ? It's kinda important if there are circles on a battlefield and must have happened many time in both AoL and later.

 

[yoniy0]

A few issues.

First, the chocking isn't just the effect of conflicting Oaths. See Siuan in NS, she starts saying something (about not squealing quite so hard when she was a novice) and is cut short. The same with Beonin when Egwene confronts her after they meet in the Tower (KoD).

Second, I take RJ's response to mean a sister wouldn't be able to join a circle if she suspected she might be used in a way that contradicts the Oaths. However, the thing with damane AS does seem to support what you're suggesting. But perhaps, most sul'dam use the a'dam to force damane to form the weaves rather than weave them their selves (what I remember of Egwene's capture seems to support this), and this of course can't be done with AS (you can't use punishment to make them ignore the Oaths). Actually, this issue is important, and we seem to have contradictory evidence. On the first hand, we know Nynaeve channeled through Moghedien, and that every sul'dam can prevent threads from being formed. On the other, Tuon thinks about having taught the weaves for Healing to her damane, implying even other sul'dam could now direct them to Heal (i.e. Tuon didn't simply learn the weaves herself). I'd love to hear your opinion on that.

Third and last, we have a lot of cases where a damane/sul'dam dies and the other doesn't, that doesn't seem to harm the one left standing (I'm offering this as examples of how circles behave when a member gets killed, albeit forced, and degenerated, circles).

[Sharaman]

A few issues.

First, the chocking isn't just the effect of conflicting Oaths. See Siuan in NS, she starts saying something (about not squealing quite so hard when she was a novice) and is cut short. The same with Beonin when Egwene confronts her after they meet in the Tower (KoD).

The choke happened when they were speaking a lie. They may not choke but simply be unable to perform a non-verbal action which is against the oaths.

 

 

 

Second, I take RJ's response to mean a sister wouldn't be able to join a circle if she suspected she might be used in a way that contradicts the Oaths. However, the thing with damane AS does seem to support what you're suggesting. But perhaps, most sul'dam use the a'dam to force damane to form the weaves rather than weave them their selves (what I remember of Egwene's capture seems to support this), and this of course can't be done with AS (you can't use punishment to make them ignore the Oaths). Actually, this issue is important, and we seem to have contradictory evidence. On the first hand, we know Nynaeve channeled through Moghedien, and that every sul'dam can prevent threads from being formed. On the other, Tuon thinks about having taught the weaves for Healing to her damane, implying even other sul'dam could now direct them to Heal (i.e. Tuon didn't simply learn the weaves herself). I'd love to hear your opinion on that.

 

RJ's remark could also be interpreted to mean that if they had already joined a circle voluntarily and then discovered the oaths were being violated by the circle, they would not be able to channel.  The sul'dam-damane circle is forced and it can't be expanded apparently. Above we were discussing voluntary circles that can. There may be differences 

I assumed that Tuon meant that she told the AS who knew healing (Sherian-Mylen?) to demonstrate the weaves in front of other damane. That would be enough to teach them. Once the damane knows, the sul'dam can just tell her to heal when necessary.

 

Third and last, we have a lot of cases where a damane/sul'dam dies and the other doesn't, that doesn't seem to harm the one left standing (I'm offering this as examples of how circles behave when a member gets killed, albeit forced, and degenerated, circles).

 

True but that may not hold true in a case when several women are channeling in a voluntary circle and one is suddenly removed.

Also, if someone dies in a sul'dam- dmanae circle, the circle automatically breaks. Does a multi-member circle stay up even if  one (or more) members die? Like I said above, this must have happened during battle especially in AoL.

 

 

 

[FarShainMael]

'we know Nynaeve channeled through Moghedien'

 

At that point, Nynaeve hadn't taken the oaths. I don't think she has yet.

 

[yoniy0]

I assumed that Tuon meant that she told the AS who knew healing (Sherian-Mylen?) to demonstrate the weaves in front of other damane. That would be enough to teach them. Once the damane knows, the sul'dam can just tell her to heal when necessary.

Yes, but that would imply that sul'dam usually tell damane what to weave rather than weaving themselves, thus explaining why the a'dam can't be used to make an AS into a weapon. That's not the same as using an AS's ability once she becomes a part of a circle.

 

'we know Nynaeve channeled through Moghedien'

 

At that point, Nynaeve hadn't taken the oaths. I don't think she has yet.

Yes, yes. The issue is not whether Nynaeve acted against the Oaths, but rather whether a sul'dam directs her damane to do as she wishes or simply guides the weaves for the circle.