Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[algspkr]

I too suspect that cuendillar made by men is black. I'm trying to remember if we have any examples of cuendillar in a color other than black or white. I don't think so...

 

 

I would say probably.  The seals were almost certainly made at the time of the sealing which would mean that men made them and they are black and white.

 

They may have been made by men and women as they are not the actual seal, but a focus for the seal so they could have been made by men and women prior to the strike and then when LTT sealed the bore brought into the equation.

[saidarisnowtainted]

during that time I believe Mat is with the girls in Tanchico, Salidar, Ebou dar,

Mat was never in Tanchico. He was on his way to Illian when Perrin arrived in Caemlyn, and later he joined the girls.

 

in know that, what i mean is why the similarity in colors

No, I don't think there was any intention to hint at men being evil. The symbol is from a time before the DO was known. It might have something to do with the color of heart-stone. I've seen speculation that men-made cuendillar is black.

 

I too suspect that cuendillar made by men is black. I'm trying to remember if we have any examples of cuendillar in a color other than black or white. I don't think so...

 

Clearly the symbol is based on Yin/Yang, which also represents male and female, destruction and creation, etc. all in balance working with and against each other just like WoT. Series-wise, it probably originated as the symbol of saidin/saidar pushing on each other to turn the wheel (makes sense for the symbol of AoL AS), and the black and white are probably to show them as opposites.

 

but there is a blatant similarity in the OP represented by white and black working against each other vs the light and the dark.  did the author simply miss the fact that he was using similar means to describe each?

[Nightstrike]

He did mention that the Creator ("light") and the Dark One were counterparts. He did call it carrying on the yin/yang theme.

 

The people in the story only know it as a symbol of saidin/saidar. Not good versus evil or anything like that.

 

[yoniy0]

Well, it wasn't originally intended as such, but for 3k years now half of the sign - the flame of Tar Valon - stands as a sign for the Light, while the other - the dragon fang - is used to accuse someone of being a Darkfriend. So, I'd say she symbolism wasn't lost on Randlanders after saidin was tainted.

[firstfishman]

Are there sports in Randland?

I mean, other than swordplay, archery, horse raceing, and quarterstaff contests..

We know gambling exsists.

[Durinax]

Are there sports in Randland?

I mean, other than swordplay, archery, horse raceing, and quarterstaff contests..

We know gambling exsists.

theres wrestling, hawking, riding, and I am sure there are others. Like we have heard of bowls and stones and such

[thewalrus777]

Are there sports in Randland?

I mean, other than swordplay, archery, horse raceing, and quarterstaff contests..

We know gambling exsists.

theres wrestling, hawking, riding, and I am sure there are others. Like we have heard of bowls and stones and such

 

not to mention the sports that were in the AoL.

[rubbernilly]

Well, now, you'll have to define sport a bit better... because I think RJ's jacket bio listed pipe collecting as an indoor sport. :o

[lillcheese]

I too suspect that cuendillar made by men is black. I'm trying to remember if we have any examples of cuendillar in a color other than black or white. I don't think so...

 

 

I would say probably.  The seals were almost certainly made at the time of the sealing which would mean that men made them and they are black and white.

 

They may have been made by men and women as they are not the actual seal, but a focus for the seal so they could have been made by men and women prior to the strike and then when LTT sealed the bore brought into the equation.

 

IIRC, the Seals were made with the intention that women would join the sealing party.  After the seals were made came the disagreement on seals vs CK. When the access keys were lost, LTT thought he could convince them to go back to plan A.  The women refused and the men attempted it alone. 

 

But originally, the seals were probably made in a male-female circle.

[azrael.1289]

Why is LTT called Dragon and Rand Dragon Reborn when clearly the same Dragon soul was used even before LTT? Or have I misunderstood how that works?

[thewalrus777]

Why is LTT called Dragon and Rand Dragon Reborn when clearly the same Dragon soul was used even before LTT? Or have I misunderstood how that works?

 

I think Lews Therin was called the Dragon because they didn't have any prophecies regarding the Dragon's soul being reborn, like they did in the 3rd Age with Rand. And whose to say the soul has always been referenced to as the Dragon?

 

 

Remember there have been MANY turnings of the Wheel and Ages galore have come and gone. The Dragon may not have been reffered to the Dragon in previous incarnations.

[azrael.1289]

Why is LTT called Dragon and Rand Dragon Reborn when clearly the same Dragon soul was used even before LTT? Or have I misunderstood how that works?

 

I think Lews Therin was called the Dragon because they didn't have any prophecies regarding the Dragon's soul being reborn, like they did in the 3rd Age with Rand. And whose to say the soul has always been referenced to as the Dragon?

 

 

Remember there have been MANY turnings of the Wheel and Ages galore have come and gone. The Dragon may not have been reffered to the Dragon in previous incarnations.

Yeah...That makes sense.

[Paerish Swar]

azrael.1289, that's a very interesting question!  Also, very interesting response, thewalrus777.  It actually made me really curious about something.

 

When Mat sounds the Horn of Valere, the dead Heroes come back; but, they aren't able to do anything until the Dragon banner was brought out and flown on Perrin's makeshift pole.  Hawking even says, "Something is wrong here.  Something holds me.  You are here.  Have you the banner?"  Why is that?

 

I have to wonder, how old is the Horn of Valere? From what age?

 

Can the Heroes ever do anything without the Dragon banner if they're called back by the Horn?

 

I ask this because if the dead Heroes are "useless" without the banner, that symbol/icon would necessarily have to exist across all the ages, right?  So maybe there is always a "Dragon," specifically?

 

We know that Birgitte always gravitates towards taking up archery in every age, and the Hero Amaresu is always known with her sword (the sword of the sun, right?), maybe every incarnation of "the Dragon" in each age always gravitates towards that symbol/icon; the Dragon and the Dragon symbol must of necessity occur simultaneously.  Like Birgitte with her bow.

 

Any thoughts on any of this?

 

Oh, I just remembered that the Horn has inscribed on it the phrase, "The grave is no bar to my call" in the old tongue.  I guess it was made in the age of legends.  So maybe it was just meant to be used in this age alone when they knew that "the Dragon" would be reborn to fight the DO.

[yoniy0]

Paerish Swar, does this help?

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

Week 1 Question: Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

 

In any case, the story of the Horn was carried on through the Age of Legends in the same way that myths are today, and magnified thereafter though the twisting that occurs in the telling and retelling of a story. And believe me, stories about the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies and everything concerned with them were rife during the Breaking. When everything is going to hell around them, people cling to anything and everything that might offer hope. That is how the Breaking could end with tales of the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies already on many peoples' lips.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 24 October 2005 - Tim Kington reporting

Q: Were the Dragon Banner and the Horn of Valere made at the same time?

RJ: No.

Q: Then why did Hawkwing need Rand to produce the banner at Falme before he could attack?

RJ: Legends change.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.  In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

 

Q: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon.  Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn.  Was Moiraine wrong?

RJ: Moiraine doesn't know everything.  She was speaking the truth as she knows it. However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the Horn "controls the Heroes." 

Q: "Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?"

RJ:  "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern."  (I'm not certain if this is the exact word he used.  It may have been "schism" or "breach," but it was definitely a word expressing the concept of a forced opening/rupture.)

More at http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372

[Paerish Swar]

Thank you yoniy0!  Those quotes are awesome.  I think that answers both azrael.1289 and my questions.

 

Curious . . . what did RJ mean by "Legends change," huh?

[Aquarius]

Curious . . . what did RJ mean by "Legends change," huh?

.... They fade to myth. and even myth is long forgotten .. blah blah blah :)

[azrael.1289]

Yeah...Thanks for the info. Very interesting...Non Dragon incarnations of the Dragon soul  :o

[yoniy0]

Curious . . . what did RJ mean by "Legends change," huh?

Personally, I suspect it means "leave me be, will you? Not everything I wrote in the second book of the series has to sit well with what I said later" :)

Seriously, the banner and Rand leading them was just part of that particular moment in the Pattern. The heroes are probably more sensitive to that kind of thing, so they felt that somehow.

[Durinax]

Curious . . . what did RJ mean by "Legends change," huh?

Personally, I suspect it means "leave me be, will you? Not everything I wrote in the second book of the series has to sit well with what I said later" :)

Seriously, the banner and Rand leading them was just part of that particular moment in the Pattern. The heroes are probably more sensitive to that kind of thing, so they felt that somehow.

I believe he is talking about the game of telephone where one person wispers something to the person next to him and it travels down the line until you get purple monkey telephone from something like dishwasher. Same with oral legends, they change with every telling

[bronnt]

Why is LTT called Dragon and Rand Dragon Reborn when clearly the same Dragon soul was used even before LTT? Or have I misunderstood how that works?

 

The answer to this is actually long and rather complicated.  I've been musing over this myself lately, at least in regard to the prophecies.

 

The Dragon's soul is bound to the Wheel, and is wound out by the Pattern in terms of great need to be a champion of the Light.  He's tied to the Horn and to the Pattern like all the other Heroes of the Horn, but he holds a position of even greater significance, as he's almost always a great leader for the Light, and without him, the Pattern will inevitably collapse.  His fate, as we see with Rand and Lews Therin Telamon, inevitably forces him to confront the Dark One, with the fate of the entire Pattern in the balance.  Other Heroes may be woven out as corrective mechanisms for the Pattern's path, but the Dragon Soul has to keep the whole thing from collapsing entirely.

 

In most eras, there are no special obstacles.  The Dragon Soul is woven out, and his skills and knowledge combined with special circumstances and a proper sense of purpose will put him into a leadership context.  Lews Therin was the most accomplished man in the Age of Legends, the strongest channeler, and he rose to prominence on the strength of his own accomplishments.  The Dragon, of course, is just the name given specifically to LTT, one he earned on his own.  When the War of Shadow began, he was already in the position necessary to lead, and he managed to save creation by leading the Hundred Companions to the Bore, even though it ultimately destroyed civilization because of the taint.  And there is the rub.

 

In the Third Age, saidin is tainted.  This creates a serious rift in the Pattern.  As a result, any man who can channel is distrusted, and they are hunted down and gentled.  In such circumstances, it would be nearly impossible for the Dragon Soul to arrive and rise to prominence.  That is the purpose of the Prophecies.  They tell of the rebirth of the Dragon Soul so that people will see the signs and allow the Dragon to survive to fulfill his task.  The Pattern itself wove out the Prophecies facilitating the next incarnation of that soul, so that it would survive to fight the Dark One instead of suffering the fate of every other male channeler.  In other Ages, the Prophecies wouldn't be required, and there is no need to recognize the Dragon Soul for what it is, and hence, no need to assign to it any name-there is no prevailing prejudice against what the Dragon is to inhibit him.  In the Third Age, the Prophecies are entirely necessary to ensure that the Soul is recognized, and those Foretelling the soul's rebirth give it the name of its most recent incarnation-the name people knew.

 

Hopefully I haven't talked in circles so much that it's gotten too confusing-if so, I'll clarify it later.

[thewalrus777]

Paerish Swar, does this help?

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

Week 1 Question: Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

 

In any case, the story of the Horn was carried on through the Age of Legends in the same way that myths are today, and magnified thereafter though the twisting that occurs in the telling and retelling of a story. And believe me, stories about the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies and everything concerned with them were rife during the Breaking. When everything is going to hell around them, people cling to anything and everything that might offer hope. That is how the Breaking could end with tales of the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies already on many peoples' lips.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 24 October 2005 - Tim Kington reporting

Q: Were the Dragon Banner and the Horn of Valere made at the same time?

RJ: No.

Q: Then why did Hawkwing need Rand to produce the banner at Falme before he could attack?

RJ: Legends change.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.  In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

 

Q: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon.  Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn.  Was Moiraine wrong?

RJ: Moiraine doesn't know everything.  She was speaking the truth as she knows it. However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the Horn "controls the Heroes." 

Q: "Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?"

RJ:  "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern."  (I'm not certain if this is the exact word he used.  It may have been "schism" or "breach," but it was definitely a word expressing the concept of a forced opening/rupture.)

More at http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372

 

research for the win! thanks yoniy. ;D

[mb]

The room Rand met Moridin, the POV tells that Rand recognized it.  I suspect it was the place of one of the 'Baalzamon' dreams in Eye of World; is this correct?

 

[yoniy0]

The room Rand met Moridin, the POV tells that Rand recognized it.  I suspect it was the place of one of the 'Baalzamon' dreams in Eye of World; is this correct?

 

Let's see:

Rand woke on the floor of a hallway. He sat up, listening to the distant sound of water.

[...]

He looked down the hallway; it was so long that it vanished into shadows, walls broken by doors at intervals, the wood dry and cracked. Yes... he thought, seizing at a memory. I have been here before, but not in a long time.

He chose one of the doors at random—he knew that it wouldn't matter which one he picked—and pushed it open. There was a room beyond, of modest size. The far side was a series of gray stone arches, beyond them a little courtyard and a sky of burning red clouds. The clouds grew and sprang from one another like bubbles in boiling water. They were the clouds of an impending storm, unnatural though they were.

[...]

There was no ground beyond the courtyard. Just that terrible sky.

Rand did not want to look toward the left side of the room. The fireplace was there. The stones that formed floor, hearth and columns were warped, as if they had been melted by an extreme heat. At the edges of his vision, they seemed to shift and change. The angles and proportions of the room were wrong. Just as they had been when he'd come here, long ago.

Something was different this time, however. Something about the colors. Many of the stones were black, as if they'd been burned, and cracks laced them. Distant red light glowed from within, as if they had cores of molten lava. There had once been a table here, hadn't there? Polished and of fine wood, its ordinary lines a discomforting contrast to the distorted angles of the stones?

The table was gone, but two chairs sat before the fireplace, high backed and facing the flames, obscuring whomever might be sitting in them. Rand forced himself to walk forward, his boots clicking on stones that burned. He felt no heat, either from them or the fire. His breath caught and his heart pounded as he approached those chairs.

Yes, everything, including the description of the hallway, the room and the sky, and Rand's recognition, support that. It is the same place. Now, where is it? As I said somewhere, I don't think it's the World of Dreams. For one, Rand doesn't seem to think so. What's more, as in other times he visited this place, he gets pulled away when he embraces saidin, which doesn't happen in TAR.

My best bet is either some location near SG (we know normal rules don't apply there), or Moridin's own dreams.

[Shadow Rider]

Is it possible for some one bound by the three oaths to write a lie?

 

 

"To speak no word that is not true".

[jaldy3]

Why has'nt Egwene's ability to find raw ore been exploited more?

With all the Money troubles she and the Salidar AS were having why not have Egwene power up some gold or silver ore somewhere along the line.