Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[dovien]

It seems to me that the 'Lord of Chaos' title and quotes are all intended to refer to Rand, especially considering his ta'veren effect.

[Talmanes]

Yeah that was exactly what I thought too. The DO told the Forsaken not to kill Rand at the time, and said 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' and it is later repeated by Taim when he receives orders about Aes Sedai bonding Asha'man.

[ranjitb]

"There are perhaps 20 other Sisters in Caemlyn at the moment, and all but me are Red Ajah." So who did the Warders belong to? Was this simply an error? I know it's possible for Aes Sedai to "lend" Warders, but knowing the attitudes of most Red Sisters, I really doubt any would have anything to do with Warders.

 

I have always assumed that there is a difference between being a Warder-trained man, and a bonded-Warder.

The tower has (or had, in the past before the new mass influx) a much, much larger force of trained warders than it did AS to bond them, and I assumed that they were under the overall command of the Amrylin seat. (Think Gawyn and his younglings under Elaida).

Since SS was Amrylin at the time of Logains capture, she no doubt sent along a few 100s of warders along with the red sisters to deal with him.

[username13]

"There are perhaps 20 other Sisters in Caemlyn at the moment, and all but me are Red Ajah." So who did the Warders belong to? Was this simply an error? I know it's possible for Aes Sedai to "lend" Warders, but knowing the attitudes of most Red Sisters, I really doubt any would have anything to do with Warders.

 

I have always assumed that there is a difference between being a Warder-trained man, and a bonded-Warder.

The tower has (or had, in the past before the new mass influx) a much, much larger force of trained warders than it did AS to bond them, and I assumed that they were under the overall command of the Amrylin seat. (Think Gawyn and his younglings under Elaida).

Since SS was Amrylin at the time of Logains capture, she no doubt sent along a few 100s of warders along with the red sisters to deal with him.

 

Doubt it, the main thing that separates a Warder from other swordsmen is the bond. Suian wouldn't have gone around happily bonding 100 random passerbys just so she could put them in fancloth and send them along with the Red Ajah.

[White_star]

Questions about TEOTW: Mat w/ ruby-dagger sickness and Rand not affected by him. Sorry if this was asked already.

 

Was this because of Rand's tavereness or because he could channel, or some other reason? In other words, why didn't sick Mat w/ that dagger affect Rand? If Perrin (not as strongly taveren as Rand) was w/ Mat instead of Rand would he have been effected?(Moraine said it would have eventually, are we assuming she's right or is this a guess on her part)

 

Thanks, I hope that made sense.

[Evoke]

Who is the Lord of Chaos?

 

Is it the DO? is it Moridin?

 

I forgot.

 

The Lord of Chaos is a referral to Rand's dark path. The Dark One is constantly influencing him into becoming Removed. Spoiler] - his ultimate weapon. The Dark One would rather Rand was turned than killed, and until Veins of Gold he is succeeding in his plans. Taim doesn't understand the full meaning of the phrase yet still uses it.

[Talmanes]

Well I think Moraine was right, as Mat actually had the dagger in his possession, whereas Rand was just in contact by association.

[White_star]

Well I think Moraine was right, as Mat actually had the dagger in his possession, whereas Rand was just in contact by association.

Yes, and Moraine was surprised it hadn't effected Rand yet. Or, am I mixing that up with her surprise they made it that far (with Fades and Dark-friends being irresistibly drawn to it- was that Tarveren or because Rand can channel/touch the OP), in which case I'm sorry.

[Suttree]

Who is the Lord of Chaos?

 

Is it the DO? is it Moridin?

 

I forgot.

 

The Lord of Chaos is a referral to Rand's dark path. The Dark One is constantly influencing him into becoming the Blind Champion - his ultimate weapon. The Dark One would rather Rand was turned than killed, and until Veins of Gold he is succeeding in his plans. Taim doesn't understand the full meaning of the phrase yet still uses it.

 

There is also this ref...

 

LoC

The lions sing and the hills take flight.

The moon by day, and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

—chant from a children's game heard in Great Arvalon, the Fourth Age

Edited December 26, 2010 by Suttree

[blazetheearth]

Well I think Moraine was right, as Mat actually had the dagger in his possession, whereas Rand was just in contact by association.

Yes, and Moraine was surprised it hadn't effected Rand yet. Or, am I mixing that up with her surprise they made it that far (with Fades and Dark-friends being irresistibly drawn to it- was that Tarveren or because Rand can channel/touch the OP), in which case I'm sorry.

 

To me, it seemed that Mat was the reason it had not affected Rand. Mor says that the dagger is contagious, and we saw DF attracted to it. We also know now that Padan Fain can infect others the way Mor described. To me the difference lays in Mat and his personality/TR-stubbornness. Mat was not presented as being of a suspicious or non-trusting nature. Prankster and trickster yes, but he was not even openly distrustful of Mor and Lan until it was revealed that she was AS and even then he showed no distrust of Lan (continuing to workout with him with weapons, etc). I would dare say that if he had not gained the dagger until TGS for example that it would have a much more profound effect on him and those around him.

 

But the Blood of Manetheren runs strongly in Mat, possibly more strongly that any of the other Tav'eren, since we see him spouting OT before he ever went to SL. And Manthere's were know as among the most stubborn (which can also be described as strength of will) among those of their Age. Aridhol's (and by extension Mordeth's) problem was suspicion. Suspicion of their friends, their neighbors, even their families and the lengths that those people were willing to go to to prove their suspicions. Mat fought that suspicion, constantly. We see from his comments to Rand that it is eating away at him, and that he hates it. Mat's own stubbornness might have been what contained the dagger's contagion. He trusted Rand completely. The one time that he seemed suspicious of Rand was around the time they got to Camelyn, and Mat apologized immediately. By the time Mor arrived, Mat had almost completely lost the battle to hold off the dagger's taint, and the stronger Mordeth became with in Mat then the more likely the taint would have been able to spread because Mat would have lost all of his trust of others. He would not have been Mat anymore.

 

So in my opinion, whatever force inhabits the dagger (call it Mordeth's spirit for easy reference) was bending all of it's energy to converting Mat into it's 'perfect vessel' that it had no strength to spare to spread the taint to those around Mat. It knew that once it won and possessed Mat then it could spread as far as it wanted, but taking over Mat was proving much more difficult than anyone (including Mor) had any reason to expect. Mor even seemed surprised that Mat had lasted as long as he did.

 

Just my opinion. But it is a theory that makes everyone in the books right and makes one of our 'Heroic Trio' seem even better than he was.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Ishadar

[Evoke]

Who is the Lord of Chaos?

 

Is it the DO? is it Moridin?

 

I forgot.

 

The Lord of Chaos is a referral to Rand's dark path. The Dark One is constantly influencing him into becoming the Blind Champion - his ultimate weapon. The Dark One would rather Rand was turned than killed, and until Veins of Gold he is succeeding in his plans. Taim doesn't understand the full meaning of the phrase yet still uses it.

 

There is also this ref...

 

LoC

The lions sing and the hills take flight.

The moon by day, and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

—chant from a children's game heard in Great Arvalon, the Fourth Age

 

Yes, however that's from the fourth age. While the events of the Wheel of Time occur in the third.

 

I like Terry Pratchett's view, which could be used to explain this:

 

But it was much earlier even than that when most people forgot that the very oldest stories are, sooner or later, about blood.

[Evoke]

 

 

To me, it seemed that Mat was the reason it had not affected Rand. Mor says that the dagger is contagious, and we saw DF attracted to it. We also know now that Padan Fain can infect others the way Mor described. To me the difference lays in Mat and his personality/TR-stubbornness. Mat was not presented as being of a suspicious or non-trusting nature. Prankster and trickster yes, but he was not even openly distrustful of Mor and Lan until it was revealed that she was AS and even then he showed no distrust of Lan (continuing to workout with him with weapons, etc). I would dare say that if he had not gained the dagger until TGS for example that it would have a much more profound effect on him and those around him.

 

But the Blood of Manetheren runs strongly in Mat, possibly more strongly that any of the other Tav'eren, since we see him spouting OT before he ever went to SL. And Manthere's were know as among the most stubborn (which can also be described as strength of will) among those of their Age. Aridhol's (and by extension Mordeth's) problem was suspicion. Suspicion of their friends, their neighbors, even their families and the lengths that those people were willing to go to to prove their suspicions. Mat fought that suspicion, constantly. We see from his comments to Rand that it is eating away at him, and that he hates it. Mat's own stubbornness might have been what contained the dagger's contagion. He trusted Rand completely. The one time that he seemed suspicious of Rand was around the time they got to Camelyn, and Mat apologized immediately. By the time Mor arrived, Mat had almost completely lost the battle to hold off the dagger's taint, and the stronger Mordeth became with in Mat then the more likely the taint would have been able to spread because Mat would have lost all of his trust of others. He would not have been Mat anymore.

 

So in my opinion, whatever force inhabits the dagger (call it Mordeth's spirit for easy reference) was bending all of it's energy to converting Mat into it's 'perfect vessel' that it had no strength to spare to spread the taint to those around Mat. It knew that once it won and possessed Mat then it could spread as far as it wanted, but taking over Mat was proving much more difficult than anyone (including Mor) had any reason to expect. Mor even seemed surprised that Mat had lasted as long as he did.

 

Just my opinion. But it is a theory that makes everyone in the books right and makes one of our 'Heroic Trio' seem even better than he was.

 

Padan Fain encountered Mordeth in Shadar Logoth. Mordeth needed a body to posses and found one with a soul already belonging to someone else - this is why there are still traces of Fain within. Matrim would not have devolved into a Mordeth type person, he would have become like one of the whitecloaks in the Two Rivers who followed Fain. Matrim's inner strength may very well have been what kept him sane this long, however in the end he would have become just like one of the citizens of Aridhol.

[blazetheearth]

Padan Fain encountered Mordeth in Shadar Logoth. Mordeth needed a body to posses and found one with a soul already belonging to someone else - this is why there are still traces of Fain within. Matrim would not have devolved into a Mordeth type person, he would have become like one of the whitecloaks in the Two Rivers who followed Fain. Matrim's inner strength may very well have been what kept him sane this long, however in the end he would have become just like one of the citizens of Aridhol.

 

I agree that in the end Mat would have fallen under Mashadar's complete control. He was on the brink of it when Moraine found him, I was only commenting on why Mat did not infect Rand the way the Moraine thought that it would have by then, and why Mat had not already been consumed by it. I seems as though had it been anybody else that they would have fallen to the dagger's control long before Mor found them in Camelyn.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Ishadar

[Rinnsal]

When Egwene gets her Dream Ter'angreal from Verin in The Dragon Reborn, Verin reads a small and very cryptic part of a supposedly lost book to her. Do we see other parts of that book or hear about them in the rest of the series?

[moratcorlm]

No.

[Nomos]

My dad just posed a theory I haven't heard before. I wanted to get some ideas from you guys on it.

 

We know that the DO can bring back Forsaken as other people. We know that Asmodean was killed. We know that Mazrim Taim appeared to Rand after Asmodean was killed.

 

Things you might know but I don't know myself: was Asmodean permanently killed?

 

If we don't know for sure that Asmodean was permanently killed, could the DO not have returned Asmodean as Taim? We know that Taim is at least a DF, so it stands to reason that he could be Asmo since we know he's not Demandred. Taim also called the Aiel the "so called Aiel" which implies he knew the AOL Aiel.

 

Thoughts?

[Sid]

The manner in which Asmo was killed could be indicated in how his final words hung in the air when death took him. Very similar to Be'lal's final words when he was balefired by Moiraine, suggesting the Asmo was in fact balefired, which would mean no rebirth for him, even if the DO cared to do so, which he didn't seem to.

 

 

I hesitate to answer any Asmodean related questions because they're usually not 'simple questions' as the thread suggests

[moratcorlm]

It's not out of the question that Taim is an Age of Legends Forsaken or something who was transmigrated into the body Bashere remembers, but I think it's really improbable that it would be Asmodean in that case. All indications are that he genuinely switched sides and then DIED THE FINAL DEATH.

 

Still, I don't think there's anything in-text that specifically rules it out; Shai'tan could well be lying. That said, RJ has said numerous times that "The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean".

WinespringBrother: Could the Dark One have brought back Asmodean if he wanted?

 

RJ: No.

[Puck]

Wasn't there a sa'angreal that Rand had in Lord of Chaos when he was captured and put in the box.

I think i was a statue of a man with a sword? Did I make that up?

[moratcorlm]

It wasn't sa'angreal, just an angreal. It disappeared sometime during his kidnapping. Here's the history.

[Puck]

It wasn't sa'angreal, just an angreal. It disappeared sometime during his kidnapping. Here's the history.

 

Thank you so much. Thats been bothering me for awhile since I could not find mention of it anywhere.

[mb]

was Asmodean permanently killed?

Robert Jordan told that the Dark One was/is unable to resurrect Asmodean. The means of his death has not been revealed up through Gathering Storm. To me it seems most probable that Asmodean died inside a Gateway since his killer would have been closer than Moiraine was to Belal; though balefire would be the next likely means.

[ranjitb]

Cadsuane is from Far Madding (unless I'm horribly mistaken).

And while she is ancient by modern AS standards, she isn't really that old. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 years.

The eldest Kinswoman was pushing 600, and LTT [Removed] died [in the - yoniy0] prime [of his - yoniy0] life [Removed].

 

So even if Cadsuane's potential lifespan has been halved/oaths, she doesn't really need to resort to necromancy at this point to extend her life.

Edited January 3, 2011 by yoniy0
Still from ToM, though a very minor point

[fikkie77]

My dad just posed a theory I haven't heard before. I wanted to get some ideas from you guys on it.

 

We know that the DO can bring back Forsaken as other people. We know that Asmodean was killed. We know that Mazrim Taim appeared to Rand after Asmodean was killed.

 

Things you might know but I don't know myself: was Asmodean permanently killed?

 

If we don't know for sure that Asmodean was permanently killed, could the DO not have returned Asmodean as Taim? We know that Taim is at least a DF, so it stands to reason that he could be Asmo since we know he's not Demandred. Taim also called the Aiel the "so called Aiel" which implies he knew the AOL Aiel.

 

Thoughts?

If I remember correctly, Asmo was killed only days before Taim appeared before Rand. That seems too short a time for the DO to give Taim's body to Asmo. Beside that, the DO and the creator (RJ) both said that Asmo died the final death.

[yoniy0]

So even if Cadsuane's potential lifespan has been halved/oaths, she doesn't really need to resort to necromancy at this point to extend her life.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying. We know modern AS rarely live for more than 300 years. Hence, Cads may very well die of natural causes in the near future.