Semirhage (Spoilers)

[cleantoe]

It just occurred to me that I think Rand grasped the True Power because Moridin wanted him too.

 

Remember, Moridin feels what Rand feels, and she tortured him HARDCORE using the domination band.

 

Shaidar Haran freed her and gave her one last chance, and she was performing beautifully! After Min was killed, she would have taken Rand to Shayol Gul and would have impressed even the DO.

 

But after Semi tortured the living hell out of Rand, Moridin was probably writhing in pain and said "f*** this" and tried his damned hardest to give Rand access to the True Power by proxy.

[Ozzie Mat]

I agree with bob about there been no crack between the DO and Moridin

 

But I think the DO sent in SH because he knew semi had been broken, so gave her one more chance.

 

Also interesting theory cleantoe, I always thought Rand used the TP without Mori knowing but with the link and Mori having a sore hand he probably was in a bit a distress.

 

But I still think the DO doesn't know Rand used the TP.  (sorry I know its off topic)

[sdelu]

It just occurred to me that I think Rand grasped the True Power because Moridin wanted him too.

 

Remember, Moridin feels what Rand feels, and she tortured him HARDCORE using the domination band.

 

Shaidar Haran freed her and gave her one last chance, and she was performing beautifully! After Min was killed, she would have taken Rand to Shayol Gul and would have impressed even the DO.

 

But after Semi tortured the living hell out of Rand, Moridin was probably writhing in pain and said "f*** this" and tried his damned hardest to give Rand access to the True Power by proxy.

 

I like this. Would be a good twist if Moridin was suddenly trying to preserve himself after thousands of years of accepting the destruction of the pattern. It depends on how deep the link goes, of course. Can he feel emotion? Is he feeling emotion that he hasn't felt in a long time because of Rand, and he wanted it to stop?

 

I think that would be neat. However, I think it would be much more positively EVIL if the DO let Rand do it to kill Semirhage.

 

In any event, her death is truly cool with either of those explanations. Either the DO being a badass, or Moridin betraying the DO for himself.... The fact of the matter is she was used to further someone's cause, and she was betrayed. I'm sure we'll find out who benefited the most from this situation soon enough.

[cleantoe]

It just occurred to me that I think Rand grasped the True Power because Moridin wanted him too.

 

Remember, Moridin feels what Rand feels, and she tortured him HARDCORE using the domination band.

 

Shaidar Haran freed her and gave her one last chance, and she was performing beautifully! After Min was killed, she would have taken Rand to Shayol Gul and would have impressed even the DO.

 

But after Semi tortured the living hell out of Rand, Moridin was probably writhing in pain and said "f*** this" and tried his damned hardest to give Rand access to the True Power by proxy.

 

I like this. Would be a good twist if Moridin was suddenly trying to preserve himself after thousands of years of accepting the destruction of the pattern. It depends on how deep the link goes, of course. Can he feel emotion? Is he feeling emotion that he hasn't felt in a long time because of Rand, and he wanted it to stop?

 

 

It wasn't emotion that Moridin feels, it's physical pain.

 

Note the scene earlier in the book where Moridin is stroking his left hand as if in pain. Clearly, his hand is hurting him (and this is due to Semi blowing Rand's left hand off).

 

Also, look how deep their link goes when Rand actually intrudes on Moridin's dream, and not vice versa. This ALL takes place in the same book before the chapter where Semi runs loose with the Domination Band. I'd say that all this taking place before--especially alluding to the fact that Moridin shares the physical pain Rand receives--is pretty strong (yet still circumstantial) evidence that Moridin probably didn't mind Rand grabbing the True Power and blasting Semi before she could torture both of them anymore. Even if he could have stopped Rand, he probably didn't want to on purpose.

 

Furthermore, consider that if Moridin does feel Rand's pain through their "link", then he knows that Semirhage, the queen of torture, is going to have a lot more fun with Rand before she hands him over to the DO.

 

Moridin knows this. Even though he wants to watch the world burn, that doesn't mean he wants to suffer along the way.

 

Finally, in that same chapter, didn't Rand's vision blur real quick and the faceless man (Moridin) buzz in and out? I'll have to go back and reread that part now. :P

[randfandom]

It wasn't emotion that Moridin feels, it's physical pain.

 

While I agree that Moridin probably felt some of the physical pain that Rand was feeling, I son't think it was the cause. Moridin did not have a problem letting Rand writhe in pain on the floor. It was only when Rand was going insane emotionally due to being forced to choke Min, that he could access the True Power. The text says that "something broke within him", he lost all emotion and that only then could he access the TP.

 

My suspicion is that Rand's Teveren nature and emotional pain (not physical) was so strong that it overcame the mental boundaries that separated them. The coldness and complete lack of emotion he suddenly felt were actually Moridin's. In his despair, Rand actually controled Moridin's soul for a short time, and thus could channel the TP.

 

If that is the case, I doubt very much that Moridin either expected or liked what happened. This also fits with the earlier TAR scene between them. Moridin is losing in the mental connection between them, surprisingly as that sounds. Rand is becoming the dominant person there.

[jemron]

Who really knows?  I think there is sufficient evidence to show that Rand accessed the TP through his link with Moridin, but there is also sufficient evidence to show that Rand was granted access by the DO.

 

cleantoe, I also speculated in another thread that what you proposed is what happened, but I think that Semi may have forced Moridin/the DO's hand when she chose to torture Min/Rand and that it wasn't the DO's plan at all.  Because Semi again disobeyed orders and didn't immediately take Rand to SG like she was supposed to, Moridin was forced to prevent his own pain through his link with Rand and so he and the DO granted Rand the access through his link to Moridin.  Semi deserved her fate.

Then again, the argument could be made that, as Verin speculated, the Forsaken (in this case Semi) are so predictable, that the DO was able to plan this whole thing from the beginning, knowing that Rand would have to reach out the TP to save himself.  It just doesn't make as much sense as to why the DO would have wanted this to happen, so I don't believe it as strongly as the "Rand accessed it through his link to Moridin" theory.

 

The big question is, does the DO know about Rand's TP access or not?

[cleantoe]

The big question is, does the DO know about Rand's TP access or not?

 

I think he does. One of the reasons why he keeps fondling the Choedan Kal is because he mentions at one point his choice between using that for his lust for power or accessing the True Power again, which he refuses to do.

 

In the end, which was a great ending except for the cheezy parts about love, he finally realized he didn't need any of them.

 

The whole "three must be one" thing makes sense that it would be Rand + 2 females accessing Callandor. This ensures that it's cooperative rather than just Rand going ballistic with so much power.

 

Lesson learned I say.

[Ryamano]

It just doesn't make as much sense as to why the DO would have wanted this to happen, so I don't believe it as strongly as the "Rand accessed it through his link to Moridin" theory.

 

The big question is, does the DO know about Rand's TP access or not?

 

The Dark One can only become victorious if he corrupts Rand. That's my theory at least. Rand was killed in several different alterante realities (in TGH) but that didn't make the "Big win" to destroy all realities. I think the "Big win" only happens if Rand goes over to the DO's cause of his own will, like he almost did in Dragonmount (destroy the world because it sucks).

 

So the DO set a trap where the only way Rand could get away was by becoming more corrupt (accessing the TP). That's why the Shadow is winning now.

[Elgee]

Ok she got balefired in the end.

A reconstruction of events immediately before that.

According to BS, Shaidar Haran picked up Elza, taught her some unusual weaves and got her to open the box.

Either Elza or Superfade, ko-ed the channellers guarding Semi, (not killing the two with warders)

Then Superfade freed Semi, and skedaddled.

Elza was instructed to tell Semi to remove the compulsion  placed by Verin in PoD and gave her the Domination Band

Perhaps GLoD double crossed Semi and let RaT have access to TP. Or somehow through the link with Moridin, Rand managed to channel TP and took care of both the Chosen S&M Queen and of Elza.

So now, Questions:

Where was the Choedan Kal - did Elza have it around and RaT picked it up after balefiring them? There's no mention of it.

Did Elza just ignore it because she knows what it is, and it's likely SH would too?

The TP thing seems to be a RAFO, so we won't have answers to speculation. Nevertheless, LTT knew or deduced what it was and RaT released it, it wasn't taken away from him. So he may well be able to tap it again or shield it.

Does GLoD even know about this unauthorised access (if it was unauthorised) or Moridin for that matter?

Why did GLoD send Superfade after Moridin forbade a rescue attempt?

Does this rescue attempt mean a crack in the relationship between Moridin and GLoD?

Do the surviving  Chosen know Semi is gone?

They should, given that there is one more black sister with Rand.

But maybe not since the lines of communication are not clear.

Who does she report to?

Etc. etc.

 

 

I've not reread that part of the book yet, but something is niggling at me. Didn't Cads show the box to Sorilea and Bair? It was 2 Wise One's, anyway. She's got that box protected 9 ways to 1, yet Elza knows how to unravel the protection. No one suspicious of those two Wise Ones?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I've not reread that part of the book yet, but something is niggling at me. Didn't Cads show the box to Sorilea and Bair? It was 2 Wise One's, anyway. She's got that box protected 9 ways to 1, yet Elza knows how to unravel the protection. No one suspicious of those two Wise Ones?

 

Personally, I'm suspicious of all the Wise Ones.  We already have a good indication that Amys is Black.  It wouldn't be any surprise if those closest to her were also.

 

The thing that I find most suspicious is that Sanderson supposedly said that Shadar Haran taught Elza the weaves needed to dissipate Cadsuane's Wards.  Until now, we've been led to believe that whatever other talents or powers SH might have, channeling isn't one of them.

 

So, how would a non-channeler teach a channeler how to weave anything?

[Jemlin]

I've not reread that part of the book yet, but something is niggling at me. Didn't Cads show the box to Sorilea and Bair? It was 2 Wise One's, anyway. She's got that box protected 9 ways to 1, yet Elza knows how to unravel the protection. No one suspicious of those two Wise Ones?

 

Personally, I'm suspicious of all the Wise Ones.  We already have a good indication that Amys is Black.  It wouldn't be any surprise if those closest to her were also.

 

The thing that I find most suspicious is that Sanderson supposedly said that Shadar Haran taught Elza the weaves need to dissipate Cadsuane's Wards.  Until now, we've been led to believe that whatever other talents or powers SH might have, channeling isn't one of them.

 

So, how would a non-channeler teach a channeler how to weave anything?

 

We don't know the full extent to his powers and abilities. He has limitations, but he also has new things almost each book that we discover.  So, we don't know for sure.

[FanoLan]

I've not reread that part of the book yet, but something is niggling at me. Didn't Cads show the box to Sorilea and Bair? It was 2 Wise One's, anyway. She's got that box protected 9 ways to 1, yet Elza knows how to unravel the protection. No one suspicious of those two Wise Ones?

 

Personally, I'm suspicious of all the Wise Ones.  We already have a good indication that Amys is Black.  It wouldn't be any surprise if those closest to her were also.

 

The thing that I find most suspicious is that Sanderson supposedly said that Shadar Haran taught Elza the weaves needed to dissipate Cadsuane's Wards.  Until now, we've been led to believe that whatever other talents or powers SH might have, channeling isn't one of them.

 

So, how would a non-channeler teach a channeler how to weave anything?

 

You've previously mentioned evidence that Amys is a darkfriend, but I have not seen any presented.  Would you explain this conclusion?  In order to maintain the integrity of this thread, perhaps a discussion on Amys should be moved elsewhere.  Maybe the ToM speculation thread.  Or anywhere else you think appropriate. 

[Bob T Dwarf]

I've not reread that part of the book yet, but something is niggling at me. Didn't Cads show the box to Sorilea and Bair? It was 2 Wise One's, anyway. She's got that box protected 9 ways to 1, yet Elza knows how to unravel the protection. No one suspicious of those two Wise Ones?

 

Personally, I'm suspicious of all the Wise Ones.  We already have a good indication that Amys is Black.  It wouldn't be any surprise if those closest to her were also.

 

The thing that I find most suspicious is that Sanderson supposedly said that Shadar Haran taught Elza the weaves needed to dissipate Cadsuane's Wards.  Until now, we've been led to believe that whatever other talents or powers SH might have, channeling isn't one of them.

 

So, how would a non-channeler teach a channeler how to weave anything?

 

You've previously mentioned evidence that Amys is a darkfriend, but I have not seen any presented.  Would you explain this conclusion?  In order to maintain the integrity of this thread, perhaps a discussion on Amys should be moved elsewhere.  Maybe the ToM speculation thread.  Or anywhere else you think appropriate.  

 

Been presented elsewhere but I'll be happy to repeat it here.

 

When Rand decides to attack Rahvin, he only tells Asmodean, Moiraine, Mat, Egwene, and Aviendha.  He only tells the Aiel chiefs that they need to be ready to attack tomorrow, but not where.

 

Asmo can't communicate with any of the other Forsaken for fear of death.

Moiraine immediately retreats to her room and spends the night writing her letters to Thom and Rand and preparing herself for the battle she knows she will have with Lanfear.

Mat goes back to his room where he let's Rand's plan slip to Melindhra.  She immediately tries to kill him and he has to kill her.  He then sits staring at her body all night while trying to figure out what he should do.

Egwene and Aviendha leave together.  Egwene tries to interest Aviendha in spending the night together preparing for the upcoming battle.

Aviendha declines, saying, "I must tell Amys what I have promised to do tomorrow.  And I must be in Rand al'Thor's sleeping chamber when he comes."  She presumably does both things.

 

The next morning, Moghedien knows all about the complete plan.  The only possible source for her knowledge is Amys.

 

 

[FanoLan]

I've not reread that part of the book yet, but something is niggling at me. Didn't Cads show the box to Sorilea and Bair? It was 2 Wise One's, anyway. She's got that box protected 9 ways to 1, yet Elza knows how to unravel the protection. No one suspicious of those two Wise Ones?

 

Personally, I'm suspicious of all the Wise Ones.  We already have a good indication that Amys is Black.  It wouldn't be any surprise if those closest to her were also.

 

The thing that I find most suspicious is that Sanderson supposedly said that Shadar Haran taught Elza the weaves needed to dissipate Cadsuane's Wards.  Until now, we've been led to believe that whatever other talents or powers SH might have, channeling isn't one of them.

 

So, how would a non-channeler teach a channeler how to weave anything?

 

You've previously mentioned evidence that Amys is a darkfriend, but I have not seen any presented.  Would you explain this conclusion?  In order to maintain the integrity of this thread, perhaps a discussion on Amys should be moved elsewhere.  Maybe the ToM speculation thread.  Or anywhere else you think appropriate.  

 

Been presented elsewhere but I'll be happy to repeat it here.

 

When Rand decides to attack Rahvin, he only tells Asmodean, Moiraine, Mat, Egwene, and Aviendha.  He only tells the Aiel chiefs that they need to be ready to attack tomorrow, but not where.

 

Asmo can't communicate with any of the other Forsaken for fear of death.

Moiraine immediately retreats to her room and spends the night writing her letters to Thom and Rand and preparing herself for the battle she knows she will have with Lanfear.

Mat goes back to his room where he let's Rand's plan slip to Melindhra.  She immediately tries to kill him and he has to kill her.  He then sits staring at her body all night while trying to figure out what he should do.

Egwene and Aviendha leave together.  Egwene tries to interest Aviendha in spending the night together preparing for the upcoming battle.

Aviendha declines, saying, "I must tell Amys what I have promised to do tomorrow.  And I must be in Rand al'Thor's sleeping chamber when he comes."  She presumably does both things.

 

The next morning, Moghedien knows all about the complete plan.  The only possible source for her knowledge is Amys.

 

 

 

 

Just as I suspected, nothing but conjecture.  It seems you have presented the facts accurately, but your conclusion is not supported.  Perhaps Amys does lean dark, despite my doubt. We know the Forsaken are involved and that weaves for eavesdropping exist.  Other ways to have discovered Rand's plans exist, so to conclude Amys must be a DF is not accurate.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Just as I suspected, nothing but conjecture.  It seems you have presented the facts accurately, but your conclusion is not supported.  Perhaps Amys does lean dark, despite my doubt. We know the Forsaken are involved and that weaves for eavesdropping exist.  Other ways to have discovered Rand's plans exist, so to conclude Amys must be a DF is not accurate.

 

95% of what we know about anything comes from conjecture.  So far, Verin is the only character we have ever seen openly admit to being Dark.  If you're waiting for absolute proof about everything in this series, you'll still be waiting for the answers to most things long after the last book is written.

 

It's both solid conjecture and the only explanation or hint of an explanation for Moggy's knowledge that has ever appeared in any of the books.  I stand by it.

[lordofsoup]

i dont think that the DO knows that rand can use the TP.  he never would have given rand a means to escape from semi.  i mean great rand touches the TP and gets even more screwed up, but he is still around to apose the DO.  if he dident acess the TP then semi would have taken him back to the DO and 13 and 13 would make him the DO's sealing the fate of the world

[Dakota]

Personally, I'm suspicious of all the Wise Ones.  We already have a good indication that Amys is Black.  It wouldn't be any surprise if those closest to her were also.

 

The thing that I find most suspicious is that Sanderson supposedly said that Shadar Haran taught Elza the weaves need to dissipate Cadsuane's Wards.  Until now, we've been led to believe that whatever other talents or powers SH might have, channeling isn't one of them.

 

So, how would a non-channeler teach a channeler how to weave anything?

 

We don't know the full extent to his powers and abilities. He has limitations, but he also has new things almost each book that we discover.  So, we don't know for sure.

 

I know at one point in the book, either Suian or Egwyne or someone shows another person the weaves for travelling, even though she isn't strong enough to make the gateway herself (due to Suian's healing from stilling or Egwyne's forkroot).  She can make and demonstrate the weaves, but can't actually make them function because she's not strong enough.

 

SH's already been show that he's able to do some tricky things involving the one power, even though he can't channel himself.  Perhaps something like this is one of them, he can make and form weaves, but technically isn't able to channel, thus can't make them actually do anything.

 

Pure speculation, but pointing out that we've seen other cases where someone is able to teach someone else how to weave something without being able to actually weave it herself.

[FanoLan]

Just as I suspected, nothing but conjecture.  It seems you have presented the facts accurately, but your conclusion is not supported.  Perhaps Amys does lean dark, despite my doubt. We know the Forsaken are involved and that weaves for eavesdropping exist.  Other ways to have discovered Rand's plans exist, so to conclude Amys must be a DF is not accurate.

 

95% of what we know about anything comes from conjecture.  So far, Verin is the only character we have ever seen openly admit to being Dark.  If you're waiting for absolute proof about everything in this series, you'll still be waiting for the answers to most things long after the last book is written.

 

It's both solid conjecture and the only explanation or hint of an explanation for Moggy's knowledge that has ever appeared in any of the books.  I stand by it.

 

Is this a joke or merely forgetfulness?  You cannot seriously suggest Verin is the only confirmed DF in the series.

 

Or do you mean openly admit their DO-philia to other characters in the series?  In which case, what exactly would that have to do with whether you, as a real person, are able to present evidence from the fictional works of Jordan/Sanderson to validate a supposition that you toss about as fact?

[Random Man]

 

SH's already been show that he's able to do some tricky things involving the one power, even though he can't channel himself.  Perhaps something like this is one of them, he can make and form weaves, but technically isn't able to channel, thus can't make them actually do anything.

 

SH also could have simply explained the nature of the wards to her based on what had been reported to him, or based on what he "smelled" out. For instance, IIRC, Rand only told Narishma how to circumvent the wards around Callandor, he didn't actually show him how to do it -- and considering how irked Narishma was with Rand, he hadn't been told as much as he'd wanted to know.

[Graendals favourite]

I have assumed that Sammael altered the wards or added to them, so that should Rand go get it, he would get caught. Narishma apparently was more careful. I assumed that was where some of Sammael's confidence came from, and why he claimed truce with Rand, so that he not appear guilty of being the one to kill Rand.

[Sab]

Some of the Wise Ones are most likely DF's but becuase Moghi knew Rands plan doesn't mean they told.  It was hardly a secret he was going to attack one of the Forsaken.  Ezra might of know the location of the necklace.  But my first thought when I read it was one the wiseones were behind it.

 

Doubtful Mordin would of willingly allowed Rand to access the True Power since that is the sign of the DO's favor of him.  DO might be doing things behind Mordins back.  The one power might of been his way to tempt Rand.

 

I don't understand the sacrifice of Semi since many others have failed the DO and been punished yet still allowed to serve.  With so few choosen that he is forced to bring them back why toss away one of his best?  How could he of known Semi would stay back and make rand kill Min and not just collar him and portal away? 

[Daruya]

I know at one point in the book, either Suian or Egwyne or someone shows another person the weaves for travelling, even though she isn't strong enough to make the gateway herself (due to Suian's healing from stilling or Egwyne's forkroot).  She can make and demonstrate the weaves, but can't actually make them function because she's not strong enough.

 

IIRC, it was Sorilea who showed Cadsuane the weave for Traveling even though she wasn't strong enough to make the gateway herself.

[Anoxanmore]

I know at one point in the book, either Suian or Egwyne or someone shows another person the weaves for travelling, even though she isn't strong enough to make the gateway herself (due to Suian's healing from stilling or Egwyne's forkroot).  She can make and demonstrate the weaves, but can't actually make them function because she's not strong enough.

 

IIRC, it was Sorilea who showed Cadsuane the weave for Traveling even though she wasn't strong enough to make the gateway herself.

 

this also happens in TGS, when Ewegene shows the Novice's the weave for traveling but it won't work due to forkroot.

[Sharaman]

Sorilea shows Cadsuane the Travel weave, Egwene shows Meidani the same.

Sorilea is also v. quick at deciphering weaves - Cad's PoV when Sori uses her little balls of light and random noise to hassle Semi.

Sorilea who can channel and quickly read weaves sees the box (Bair can't channel).

We've never had any Aiel Wise One PoVs (excluding Avi) or a Rhuarc POV either.

BS says Superfade showed Elza some exotic weaves or taught them to her via a painful learning process to get the box opened.

One possibility is that he can use a version of Ishamel's method of mentally imprinting Carridin - he doesn't physically show weaves, just dumps the knowledge in her head. The "painful" description makes that likely - just being visually shown a weave would not be painful.

So does another little detail - Superfade discovers that Elza is under compulsion, (which he can perhaps smell as Saidar based) but can't clear it, hence must ask Semi to do the needful. This is indicative that SH can't actually weave Saidar.

There is yet another detail. The escape was planned not opportunistic - Elza incapacitated the three AS on guard - so she may have received prior instructions to get poison ready, etc. We know there are two other black sisters with Rand - Egwene knows about one of them. Did the instructions come via those sisters or did SH just appear out of the black and set it up?

Definitely good intelligence on the part of GLoD's minions.

Was it helped along by Aiel DFs? As Katerine's escape undoubtedly was?

 

 

 

[dholm]

I know at one point in the book, either Suian or Egwyne or someone shows another person the weaves for travelling, even though she isn't strong enough to make the gateway herself (due to Suian's healing from stilling or Egwyne's forkroot).  She can make and demonstrate the weaves, but can't actually make them function because she's not strong enough.

 

IIRC, it was Sorilea who showed Cadsuane the weave for Traveling even though she wasn't strong enough to make the gateway herself.

 

this also happens in TGS, when Ewegene shows the Novice's the weave for traveling but it won't work due to forkroot.

 

She shows it to the novices, true, but at that point, she's in a circle, and actually does make a gateway (in order to retrieve the white wand sa'angreal).

 

You're thinking of when Egwene shows the weave to Meidani.