The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Nethran Thaimal]

I forsee the Aiel making the Waste bloom using their singing once they have rediscovered the song. In order to do this they will have to co-operate with Ogiers, Tinkers and probably a Nym. Perhaps the Aiel will make Avendesora bloom again through singing.

 

I think Someshta was the last of the Nym. :\  They'll have to find out how to make them again probably.

 

 

As for why they haven't Sung life into the Waste, they've forgotten the Song just like the Tinkers.  It'll take those who remember to bring it back, which will probably be the Clan Chiefs, Wise Ones, and Rand, since they have seen and lived that part of their past. That's what I think, anyway.

[Sharaman]

What about the dagger that makes you invisible to shadowspawn, or the black rod that has to do with pain or the key that has to do with singing?  Those are the only 3 terangreal that Elayne and Avi go into any detail on.

Found in Book VII (CoS) and discussed in detail only in WH (IX) I think.

 

[Nightstrike]

Aiel singing might be something that depends on their  pacifism? Could explain why it was lost?

 

[BladeDancer]

Aiel singing might be something that depends on their  pacifism? Could explain why it was lost?

 

 

That is possible. We simply do not know enough about it because we only one POV during Rand's vision. We don't if Nym are needed. We don't know if current Aiel can sing it. We don't know if it is a specific song/harmony that is needed.

 

Aviendha going to Rhuidean could be crucial as she could discover something about this, as well as identifying any Ter'Angreal remaining in Rhuidean.I have a vision of Enaila bursting into Song and surprising everyone - sort of like Susan Boyle in a Cadin'sor!  :o

[thewalrus777]

Aiel singing might be something that depends on their  pacifism? Could explain why it was lost?

 

 

That is possible. We simply do not know enough about it because we only one POV during Rand's vision. We don't if Nym are needed. We don't know if current Aiel can sing it. We don't know if it is a specific song/harmony that is needed.

 

Aviendha going to Rhuidean could be crucial as she could discover something about this, as well as identifying any Ter'Angreal remaining in Rhuidean.I have a vision of Enaila bursting into Song and surprising everyone - sort of like Susan Boyle in a Cadin'sor!  :o

 

They don't remember the song because it reminds them of The way of the leaf. Which most aiel despise. They call those who practice The Way "Lost Ones" for a reason.

[BladeDancer]

Aiel singing might be something that depends on their  pacifism? Could explain why it was lost?

 

 

That is possible. We simply do not know enough about it because we only one POV during Rand's vision. We don't if Nym are needed. We don't know if current Aiel can sing it. We don't know if it is a specific song/harmony that is needed.

 

Aviendha going to Rhuidean could be crucial as she could discover something about this, as well as identifying any Ter'Angreal remaining in Rhuidean.I have a vision of Enaila bursting into Song and surprising everyone - sort of like Susan Boyle in a Cadin'sor!  :o

 

They don't remember the song because it reminds them of The way of the leaf. Which most aiel despise. They call those who practice The Way "Lost Ones" for a reason.

 

I think the Aiel have forgotten their ability and the Song because they have forgotten everything about the Da'Shain Aiel. It is only the ritual of sending Clan Chief candidates to Rhuidean which prevented their history as pacifists from being completely forgotten. The Aiel did not use Sword, or ride horses. They avoid and dislike Tinkers, they revere Avendesora and had a treaty with the Carhienen. They were secretly called the People of the Dragon. All of these things are ingrained in their warrior culture but the reasons were forgotten except by Clan Chiefs (and probably Wise Ones). The Aiel might have called Tinkers 'Lost Ones' but until Rand revealed the truth, the Aiel generally would not have known why the Tinkers were traditionally shunned but allowed to cross the Waste without being attacked.

[Nethran Thaimal]

And the reason they've forgotten about the Da'Shain Aiel is because they traveled behind the Jenn and not with them.  The Jenn would not have passed their knowledge of their past on to those who became the warrior Aiel, and the warriors had no reason to remember what was lost because they had chosen another path.  The Jenn-who-became-Tinkers, though, forgot the song because for over 300 years they were unable to stop moving, and because they couldn't stop moving they had no opportunity to Sing.  There were no fields to Sing. Since they had no opportunity to Sing, it wasn't passed to their descendants, and once they had an opportunity to stop moving they had forgotten the Song.

 

I saw something about Aviendha and Elayne having found a ter'angreal that has to do with singing.  I forgot about that, but could it have something to do with the Song also?

[Skeeve the Great]

And the reason they've forgotten about the Da'Shain Aiel is because they traveled behind the Jenn and not with them.  The Jenn would not have passed their knowledge of their past on to those who became the warrior Aiel, and the warriors had no reason to remember what was lost because they had chosen another path.  The Jenn-who-became-Tinkers, though, forgot the song because for over 300 years they were unable to stop moving, and because they couldn't stop moving they had no opportunity to Sing.  There were no fields to Sing. Since they had no opportunity to Sing, it wasn't passed to their descendants, and once they had an opportunity to stop moving they had forgotten the Song.

 

I saw something about Aviendha and Elayne having found a ter'angreal that has to do with singing.  I forgot about that, but could it have something to do with the Song also?

 

Tinkers separated from Aiel before warriors Aiel came to exist. And the Song was the reason - pre-Tinkers beleived that all was going to return the way it was if they find the Song. Aiel started to call them "the Lost One" because pre-Tinkers abandoned the Convenant and the last task Aes Sedai left them to do - to find a safe place for angreals and stuff.

[nophone]

It's possible that the song activates some sort of Ter'angreal or on the other hand, that some Ter'angreal is needed to make the song work.

[Tervvo]

Did Lews Therin say anything much in those books ?

I read them so long ago.

Some little mad utterance ?

[WolfDragonFox]

I am now starting the book 4-6 stretch after finishing the first three of course...I will be noting every minute detail, happening, event, viewing, and anything else that I notice goes untalked about.

[nophone]

Did Lews Therin say anything much in those books ?

I read them so long ago.

Some little mad utterance ?

 

i don't think it would be a small thing. Brandon seemed to suggest that he was surprised that the topic was not discussed to death, which would imply that there is more to it than a brief mention.

[ed2funy]

So, I am not sure if this has much to do with the BUT, but the Ogier Longing.

 

We learn that the Ogier need to used the Book of Translation so that they can come back in the next Age.

 

From http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

 

Book of Translation

An Ogier artifact. Opening it will take the Ogier people to another world.

 

I cannot remember anywhere where it said the Ogier left before the AoL.

It always says they were left wondering, looking for the steddings.

Maybe the Longing developed because they didn't go home, and come back?

 

Also, on another note, I think the Song is very important.

Avi might find another ter'agreal in Rhuidean, or she might actually hear the song yes.

 

[Sharaman]

The Ogier are from another planet.

They came to WoTland before the AoL and they've not left since.

The Book of Translation is an open return ticket.

 

[ed2funy]

I am pretty sure I remember Loial or one of those old Ogier saying they have to open the Book if they want to come back.

 

Since they didn't before the AoL, this may be why they have the Longing.

[Sharaman]

In the only place the Book of Translation is mentioned, (KoD, during Loail's marriage scene) they say that it's necessary to use the book if they want to leave WoT.

[Pete4]

I haven't seen it in forums, but I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before.

 

We know that you cannot win Snakes and Foxes without breaking the rules.

IIRC this was first mentioned in LoC, when Mat met Olver, and repeated many times after.

 

I think this "break the rules" behaviuor would be used by:

1.- Mat to rescue Moraine from finns. (Highly probable)

2.- Rand to win the LB. (Less probable, but I added it according to Verin's explanation tha LB would be different than what Rand expect it to be)

 

 

[nophone]

So, I am not sure if this has much to do with the BUT, but the Ogier Longing.

 

We learn that the Ogier need to used the Book of Translation so that they can come back in the next Age.

 

From http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

 

Book of Translation

An Ogier artifact. Opening it will take the Ogier people to another world.

 

I cannot remember anywhere where it said the Ogier left before the AoL.

It always says they were left wondering, looking for the steddings.

Maybe the Longing developed because they didn't go home, and come back?

 

Also, on another note, I think the Song is very important.

Avi might find another ter'agreal in Rhuidean, or she might actually hear the song yes.

 

 

The Ogier that returned with the Seanchan never experienced the longing, presumably because they were able to find stedding prior to getting all emo and depressed. They can stay away from stedding without any repercussion.

[NetSlider]

To follow up on this, does any one else noticed that Ogier Gardeners seem to have no Longing? Or maybe they just don't specify it? Also, if they do need to be in the stadding once in a while, how can they survive in the Randland once arriving for the return without invading one? (I just don't see Ogier on this side of the Ocean be very happy to see Ogeir with axes and all)

[BladeDancer]

To follow up on this, does any one else noticed that Ogier Gardeners seem to have no Longing? Or maybe they just don't specify it? Also, if they do need to be in the stadding once in a while, how can they survive in the Randland once arriving for the return without invading one? (I just don't see Ogier on this side of the Ocean be very happy to see Ogeir with axes and all)

 

It is an unresolved mystery. How do Seanchan Ogier not need to go to Stedding? Is the fact that they become soldiers somehow giving them a purpose such that the Longing is diminished? It will be interesting to see a meeting between a local Ogier and a Gardener. And would the Gardener have a Seanchan accent?

[Nightstrike]

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

 

Week 3 Question: How do the Seanchan Ogier cope with the Longing, given that their duties in the Deathwatch Guard take them overseas? Are there many stedding in Seanchan?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are many more stedding in Seanchan than there are in the part of the world where the story is taking place, and that is why the Seanchan Ogier don't suffer from the Longing. Because there are so many more stedding, they were able to find them more easily even during the Breaking and therefore never had the very extended separation that Ogier on this side of the Aryth Ocean had, though they seldom were able to settle in one for very long until the Breaking ended.

 

Also, I don't think 2 years is too long to be separated from a stedding. Not for the big, bad Gardeners.  :D

Maybe they even got into some stedding in the conquered lands "this side" of the Aryth Ocean?

 

[nophone]

To follow up on this, does any one else noticed that Ogier Gardeners seem to have no Longing? Or maybe they just don't specify it? Also, if they do need to be in the stadding once in a while, how can they survive in the Randland once arriving for the return without invading one? (I just don't see Ogier on this side of the Ocean be very happy to see Ogeir with axes and all)

 

It is an unresolved mystery. How do Seanchan Ogier not need to go to Stedding? Is the fact that they become soldiers somehow giving them a purpose such that the Longing is diminished? It will be interesting to see a meeting between a local Ogier and a Gardener. And would the Gardener have a Seanchan accent?

 

The Ogier Gardeners, that returned with the Seanchan never experienced the longing, presumably because they were able to find stedding prior to getting all emo and depressed. They can stay away from stedding without any repercussion. I read this some where. I believe RJ commented on it in an interview.

[dflinn]

Did Lews Therin say anything much in those books ?

I read them so long ago.

Some little mad utterance ?

The one thing I noticed re-reading 4-6 after reading TGS was the progression of Lews Therin's voice. It started as Rand having memories, then he would realize it wasnt his memory. So after the re-read I did start agreeing with those who say there never was a Lews in Rand's head. It was just a way for Rand to deal with memories popping up that were not, what he thought, were his. He would remember then say wait, thats not my memory thats Lews Therin's and eventually it just branched into Lews Therin.

[Wantanswers]

[qoute]We know that you cannot win Snakes and Foxes without breaking the rules.

IIRC this was first mentioned in LoC, when Mat met Olver, and repeated many times after.

 

 

It was first mentioned in The Shadow Rising, when Perrin met Birgitte in TAR.

[Crael123]

It might actually be the Snake and Foxes thing..... mat is going into the ToG in ToM so that would make sense.