The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Ataxia]

When Mat and Rand went through the doorway (along with Moiraine, TSR Into the Doorway) the people inside were telling them to hurry because of the strain.(Because of their Tav'?) Pg 252 about halfway. Has this been discussed?  Maybe Mat will disrupt it when he goes to rescue Moiraine? Does it keep the 2 species separated? Would be funny to see those creatures fighting each other while Mat slips out.

[analyticalkeys]

When Mat and Rand went through the doorway (along with Moiraine, TSR Into the Doorway) the people inside were telling them to hurry because of the strain.(Because of their Tav'?) Pg 252 about halfway. Has this been discussed?  Maybe Mat will disrupt it when he goes to rescue Moiraine? Does it keep the 2 species separated? Would be funny to see those creatures fighting each other while Mat slips out.

 

I was under the impression that they said the strain was from too many people entering the ter'angreal at the same time, and the Dragon Reborn, no less, caused enough of a pull.

[9kindsofidiot]

Not sure if this has been brought up yet. I've only had time to read the first 10 or so pages of this thread.

 

I know the death of Mat (Rahvin by lightning in book 5) has been discussed a lot and may be disqualified. However, a detail regarding his death may not have been talked about much. If Mat has died, doesn't that mean he is no longer tied to the Horn? This possibly relates to Elayne and Nynaeve's need walk as well. They could have been dropped in that storeroom because the Horn is located there and must be secured again (i.e., re-tied to Mat).

[Bob T Dwarf]

Mat's death/undeath has been discussed.

 

Nobody knows enough about how that cosmography is supposed to work to say whether he's still tied to the Horn or not.

[ckparrothead]

I think the small detail that has gone unnoticed but may be have big implications is the fact that the health of the Blight seems to be directly linked with the metaphorical battle between Rand and Ishamael.

 

We already know that the health of the land is tied with Rand, the whole Fisher King analogy, that's been given to us and expounded upon by RJ, by BS, etc.  But one thing that doesn't seem to be discussed is how the health of the Blight doesn't seem to be connected just to the fortunes of all agents of the Shadow, but rather to Ishamael himself. 

 

At the end of the Eye, after giving some Trollocs lessons on surfing 20 foot earth waves in Tarwin's Gap, he goes and meets Ish in some room and they battle, Rand points some sword of light at him and burns the ever loving crap out of Ish.  Sure enough they go back to the Eye and the Blight feels different to everyone, quieter, defeated.  That's when Moiraine gives her little "we just dealt a mighty blow to the Dark One today" line.

 

So in TSR, we see that the Blight has retreated a full two miles beyond the markers, no sign of any kind of corruption or pestilence in that span.  Well, what just happened?  Rand actually killed Ishamael.  They don't start talking about the Blight's retreat until TSR, and they talk about it again some in LOC, and throughout the books there are a few more references to it.  But then by TGS we see the Blight has expanded quite a bit.  Why?  Well, as RJ described the situation after KOD, the Shadow is winning. Ishamael's battle for Rand's soul is being won by the Shadow.  The Light is on the ropes.  They need a miracle.  Ishamael himself is thriving as Moridin and his schemes against Rand are bearing fruit.

 

The implications of some small thing like the health of the Blight being directly tied in with Ishamael's fortunes are pretty big.  Verin said in TGS that she doesn't think this battle is being fought how al'Thor thinks it will.  We know that Ishamael and Rand are linked in some kind of weird way.  Since TPOD, Lews Therin had been babbling about "the three of us" being destroyers and whatnot, making multiple references in TPOD and WH to there being a third person in the battle for Rand's soul.  In TPOD, in Rand's dreams he sees a third face, blurry but vaguely recognizable.  Just before he channels the True Power in TGS, he sees a "clouded face" for a brief moment.  Remember all of those times Ish ranted on about how he and Rand have fought this battle thousands of times?

 

Anyway I think it's as good a theory as any.  The Blight's retreat is definitely something that didn't truly surface until Books 4-6, and it's something that most people overlooked, never really spent a ton of time theorizing about it or speculating on the implications.  But the implications of it could indeed be way more than folks had assumed.  The implications of the Blight retreating and expanding according to the rise and fall of Ishamael himself, may give us clues as to the nature of the dynamic between the Light and Shadow, the nature of the connection between Rand and Ish, may give us clues as to how the Last Battle may really be fought.

 

And that would certainly make it a lot more important than who killed Asmodean.

[WinespringBrother]

Anyway I think it's as good a theory as any.  The Blight's retreat is definitely something that didn't truly surface until Books 4-6, and it's something that most people overlooked, never really spent a ton of time theorizing about it or speculating on the implications.  But the implications of it could indeed be way more than folks had assumed.  The implications of the Blight retreating and expanding according to the rise and fall of Ishamael himself, may give us clues as to the nature of the dynamic between the Light and Shadow, the nature of the connection between Rand and Ish, may give us clues as to how the Last Battle may really be fought.

 

I had the same idea, but actually the blight's retreat began in book 1.

[1eejit]

This was noticed a long time ago on Wotmania but is almost never discussed, making it a good contender for BS not having read it. Mat had no Aes Sedai with him at the time, so although he had the Foxhead Medallion his companions were all vulnerable to whatever Graendal might want to do to them.

Since Olver also appears in this chapter another idea is that he is working for her somehow, possibly subconsciously (like those who attended the Darkfriend Tea Party).

She may also be able to identify Mat's dreams due to this encounter, and has been able to spy on him further that way.

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 7 Question: Since the first few books, Rand's and Perrin's dreams have been protected. Rand can weave a ward around his dreams. Perrin being a Wolfbrother has protected his dreams. How have Mat's dreams been protected since the first half of the series?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A side effect of his foxhead medallion, though he doesn't know it. This was not part of the intended purpose of making the medallion; it's a true side effect.

Fair enough, but I'm sure she could easily spy on the dreams of all his companions after seeing them in person if she so desired.

 

Point is, this link between Mat and Graendal fits the timeframe and is never discussed.

[ckparrothead]

The Blight didn't actually retreat in Book 1, did it?  I thought it just felt different and quiet at the Eye.  And then when they got to the border post they saw that everything was sprouting in a hurry.

[somathus]

Could it be something to do with Graendal hanging out in an inn Mat was visiting?

Beginning of LoC:

A handful of others dotted the members of the Band. Here a lean' date=' fork-bearded Kandori with a moonstone the size of his thumbnail in one earlobe and silver chains across the chest of his red coat, there [b']a copper-skinned Domani woman, though wearing a modest blue dress, with quick eyes and gemmed rings on all her fingers[/b], elsewhere a Taraboner in a conical flat-topped blue cap, thick mustache hidden behind a transparent veil.

[Graendal's] thin blue Domani gown clung and more than hinted. As usual she had a ring with different stones on every finger' date=' four or five gem-encrusted bracelets on each wrist, and a wide collar of huge sapphires snugged around [b']the gown’s high neck.[/b]

Given that these are in two consecutive chapters I think it's almost certainly her. I also doubt that a red herring would be quite so well hidden.

(Note: 'modest' is very subjective, and that's Mat's PoV - and it is high-necked at least)

 

I can't see Graendal wearing anything that someone else, especially Mat, would consider to be modest.  She likes them tight and sheer

 

[djerf]

Well, we've never really had clarification as to wht it means that (apparently) Narishma will "follow after" Rand.

 

I have a thought on this that includes some mind bending over the time paradox with balefire and might or might not be the thing Brandon Sanderson is refering to.

It came to me a few weeks after reading TGS and is bulit upon the fact that the DO cant step outside of time.

 

Say that at TG a bunch of people is creating a seal over the DO while Rand is useing Sadin to hold the DO back ( someone has to hold him back ) now the DO would cunterstrike at sadin and taint it right so loads of male chanelers will go nuts, but we know the DO will and Rand knows that the DO cant step outside of time ( from mordin in TGS) and even better, Narshima knows how to make balefire and will do it if Rand tells him so.

Now there is a problem thoo, Sadin is in fact tainted so Narshima cant balefire rand AND Aliva is soposed to help Rand die, so say he instruct them to bond so Narshima can, noone trust aliva but Rand so to the others he can just say that those two will bond in order to make sure she wont do something bad.

 

Ok Narshima balefires Rand back to before he used sadin to hold the DO, now sadin never tuched the DO but it is to late for him to do anything about it ( cant step outside of time right). The good part is that the light won the bad part our hero died, wierd thing is that Eggy or avhi or the braid girl ( cant remeber acronyms for her and cant spell nyaneve) it could even be Logian and his "glory to come" thing ( The one who saved the one who save the world would be a great thing ?) was there and saw him kill rand, acting in rage she balefires Narshima gues what happends? Rand is alive and thus two prophecis is fullfilled ( to live you must die (if the taint had been allowed rand would have died) and the one who draws it shall follow after( indeed he would be balefired after rand was))

One thing is unclear thoo, if the DO was stoped from tainting sadin by the death of rand in the first time would bringing him back allow the DO to taint it or would it be to late?

 

Ok it's thin but I like the theory =)

 

[Mightyshug]

Little thin, & sorry if this has already been shot down, but my own view is that this issue relates to Alanna's bonding of Rand. I believe she was trained by Sheriam (Black Ajah), & spent a lot of time with Verin (Black Ajah) through out books 4, 5, & 6. So, possible that Rand has been bonded by a member of the Black Ajah? What could this mean? I also note (unless I missed it - sorry if so) that this was not specifically ruled out on the thread that Luckers ended up locking. Maybe? Maybe not? RAFO I suppose!

 

Hey ho.

[Bob T Dwarf]

o in TSR, we see that the Blight has retreated a full two miles beyond the markers, no sign of any kind of corruption or pestilence in that span.  Well, what just happened?  Rand actually killed Ishamael.  They don't start talking about the Blight's retreat until TSR, and they talk about it again some in LOC, and throughout the books there are a few more references to it.  But then by TGS we see the Blight has expanded quite a bit.  Why?  Well, as RJ described the situation after KOD, the Shadow is winning. Ishamael's battle for Rand's soul is being won by the Shadow.  The Light is on the ropes.  They need a miracle.  Ishamael himself is thriving as Moridin and his schemes against Rand are bearing fruit.

 

The implications of some small thing like the health of the Blight being directly tied in with Ishamael's fortunes are pretty big.  Verin said in TGS that she doesn't think this battle is being fought how al'Thor thinks it will.  We know that Ishamael and Rand are linked in some kind of weird way.  Since TPOD, Lews Therin had been babbling about "the three of us" being destroyers and whatnot, making multiple references in TPOD and WH to there being a third person in the battle for Rand's soul.  In TPOD, in Rand's dreams he sees a third face, blurry but vaguely recognizable.  Just before he channels the True Power in TGS, he sees a "clouded face" for a brief moment.  Remember all of those times Ish ranted on about how he and Rand have fought this battle thousands of times?

 

Anyway I think it's as good a theory as any.  The Blight's retreat is definitely something that didn't truly surface until Books 4-6, and it's something that most people overlooked, never really spent a ton of time theorizing about it or speculating on the implications.  But the implications of it could indeed be way more than folks had assumed.  The implications of the Blight retreating and expanding according to the rise and fall of Ishamael himself, may give us clues as to the nature of the dynamic between the Light and Shadow, the nature of the connection between Rand and Ish, may give us clues as to how the Last Battle may really be fought.

 

And that would certainly make it a lot more important than who killed Asmodean.

 

Not quite.  Rand didn't actually kill IshyBa'alz.  He just hurt him very badly, as we see at the DF Social in TGH.

 

Two things happened that could account for the Blight's retreat.

 

First, Rand beat Ba'alzy.  Second Loial sang to Someshta's monument tree.  We don't see the Blight's retreat until after both of those things have happened.

 

Was one or the other enough to cause it?  Did it take the combination of both things?  No way to tell for sure, yet.

[1eejit]

Could it be something to do with Graendal hanging out in an inn Mat was visiting?

Beginning of LoC:

A handful of others dotted the members of the Band. Here a lean' date=' fork-bearded Kandori with a moonstone the size of his thumbnail in one earlobe and silver chains across the chest of his red coat, there [b']a copper-skinned Domani woman, though wearing a modest blue dress, with quick eyes and gemmed rings on all her fingers[/b], elsewhere a Taraboner in a conical flat-topped blue cap, thick mustache hidden behind a transparent veil.

[Graendal's] thin blue Domani gown clung and more than hinted. As usual she had a ring with different stones on every finger' date=' four or five gem-encrusted bracelets on each wrist, and a wide collar of huge sapphires snugged around [b']the gown’s high neck.[/b]

Given that these are in two consecutive chapters I think it's almost certainly her. I also doubt that a red herring would be quite so well hidden.

(Note: 'modest' is very subjective, and that's Mat's PoV - and it is high-necked at least)

 

I can't see Graendal wearing anything that someone else, especially Mat, would consider to be modest.  She likes them tight and sheer

a)She's using Mask of Mirrors as part of her disguise, that may affect the look/fit of the dress somewhat.

b)Graendal is smart enough not to draw undue attention to herself when disguised.

c)Mat's standards of a modest Domani dress is probably anything which isn't like a second skin :P

[Bob T Dwarf]

a)She's using Mask of Mirrors as part of her disguise, that may affect the look/fit of the dress somewhat.

b)Graendal is smart enough not to draw undue attention to herself when disguised.

c)Mat's standards of a modest Domani dress is probably anything which isn't like a second skin :P

 

I doubt that's Graendal.  As we see in the very next chapter, she's been very busy elsewhere lately.  First going to Shara and kidnapping the Sh'Schmucks, and then visiting Shayol Ghul and getting an atta girl from the DO.  And, finally setting up the meeting with Sammael to try to maneuver him into attacking Rand.

[aunt_pol]

This is melting my head, you guys.

I'm in the middle of book 4 in my (too embarrassed to admit how many times) #th re read, and I can't find a bloody thing that sits right. If it's not some silly little detail about the Finns, it's probably Aviendha's silly bracelet, alright, but quite how that's supposed to turn out more WOW than who killed Asmo defeats me. So I guess that means somebody totally boring and predictable killed him.

 

Valan Luca :D, take a bow.

[yoniy0]

a)She's using Mask of Mirrors as part of her disguise, that may affect the look/fit of the dress somewhat.

b)Graendal is smart enough not to draw undue attention to herself when disguised.

c)Mat's standards of a modest Domani dress is probably anything which isn't like a second skin :P

 

I doubt that's Graendal.  As we see in the very next chapter, she's been very busy elsewhere lately.  First going to Shara and kidnapping the Sh'Schmucks, and then visiting Shayol Ghul and getting an atta girl from the DO.  And, finally setting up the meeting with Sammael to try to maneuver him into attacking Rand.

 

Plus, your whole argument is the similar descriptions. So which way is it? Is she smart enough to disguise herself or were we given similarities to deduce it's her? Saying it's just similar enough to give us a clue but not too much so to make Mat think she's a Forsaken (why would he think that, BTW? Only Rand know what they look like) seems weak, to me.

[Grubb]

Ok so I've been slowly picking my way through this thread over the last couple of days and I'm not sure if someone has brought it up but something i haven't seen brought up is Rands unique reaction to healing or lack of reaction i should say. i think it first happens around about the right books, can't be sure tho it has bee a fair while since i read back that far. His lack of reaction to the healing is consistently mentioned throughout the series and it could be a thing that could carry more consequence than on first appearances.

[Sharaman]

Ok so I've been slowly picking my way through this thread over the last couple of days and I'm not sure if someone has brought it up but something i haven't seen brought up is Rands unique reaction to healing or lack of reaction i should say. i think it first happens around about the right books, can't be sure tho it has bee a fair while since i read back that far. His lack of reaction to the healing is consistently mentioned throughout the series and it could be a thing that could carry more consequence than on first appearances.

No, RaT's just very stoic because he's learnt to handle pain and not show it. Lan is the same - in New Spring as well as later - he only blinks when he's been healed.

[Jareth Bixx]

Ok so I've been slowly picking my way through this thread over the last couple of days and I'm not sure if someone has brought it up but something i haven't seen brought up is Rands unique reaction to healing or lack of reaction i should say. i think it first happens around about the right books, can't be sure tho it has bee a fair while since i read back that far. His lack of reaction to the healing is consistently mentioned throughout the series and it could be a thing that could carry more consequence than on first appearances.

No, RaT's just very stoic because he's learnt to handle pain and not show it. Lan is the same - in New Spring as well as later - he only blinks when he's been healed.

 

I read that as meaning healing is ineffective on Rand. Hence the reason he still has those scars, and shouldn't madness itself be "healable?" It is if you ask our IRL Psychological community. HAH! Or did I miss the boat on this?

[Vulgir]

No hes just leared how to handle the pain like Lan, such as when Semi is tourtureing him and he stops screaming, hes been through so much hes leared to live with pain.

[1eejit]

a)She's using Mask of Mirrors as part of her disguise, that may affect the look/fit of the dress somewhat.

b)Graendal is smart enough not to draw undue attention to herself when disguised.

c)Mat's standards of a modest Domani dress is probably anything which isn't like a second skin :P

 

I doubt that's Graendal.  As we see in the very next chapter, she's been very busy elsewhere lately.  First going to Shara and kidnapping the Sh'Schmucks, and then visiting Shayol Ghul and getting an atta girl from the DO.  And, finally setting up the meeting with Sammael to try to maneuver him into attacking Rand.

 

Plus, your whole argument is the similar descriptions. So which way is it? Is she smart enough to disguise herself or were we given similarities to deduce it's her? Saying it's just similar enough to give us a clue but not too much so to make Mat think she's a Forsaken (why would he think that, BTW? Only Rand know what they look like) seems weak, to me.

Yes similar descriptions, not identical. RJ has given us clues to deduce her identity but without making it blatently obvious. Very much his style.

It's not that she's trying to avoid being spotted as a Forsaken, but that she doesn't want to attract too much attention from the lecherous Mat - which she surely would without MoM disguising her appearance somewhat.

 

 

As for her being busy that doesn't hold much water. She could have spent just a few hours in Maerone, it's not like she had a full 24/7 schedule for the entire (loose) timeframe overlap.

[analyticalkeys]

This argument is ridiculous, imo. RJ has always used very SIMILAR descriptions for people from the same land.. as Graendal is based in Arad Doman, she was picking up on the local style, it only makes sense that she's wearing the same thing as every other Domani out there.

[Mr Ares]

This has been mentioned in a few theories but it hasn't really gotten the attention it deserves (that I've seen). In tDR Verin gives Eg the list of ter' stolen by the BA and it includes a series of  dice joined together that alter chance in some way. This is never mentioned again but immediately after Mat's healing, (where Verin was present), Mat's luck begins to manifest itself. Granted, it happens in book 3 but the dice in Mat's head start in book 4. I don't know if this has anything to do with the big mystery but I would bet the house those dice were involved in Mat's healing and are responsible for his luck. If Verin or other BAs were involved that would fit the comment that Mat's luck is very similar to the DO's luck.

Mat's luck began after SL, we see signs of it in Shienar near the start of TGH, and he hears the dice at the end of TDR. Timing wise, the dagger is the only thing that fits for Mat's luck.

 

No, we first hear of that in book 2, as well as the Crystal Throne and the Towers of Midnight. Don't know about the rst, but I can rule that one out.

 

Could it be something to do with Graendal hanging out in an inn Mat was visiting?

Beginning of LoC:

A handful of others dotted the members of the Band. Here a lean' date=' fork-bearded Kandori with a moonstone the size of his thumbnail in one earlobe and silver chains across the chest of his red coat, there [b']a copper-skinned Domani woman, though wearing a modest blue dress, with quick eyes and gemmed rings on all her fingers[/b], elsewhere a Taraboner in a conical flat-topped blue cap, thick mustache hidden behind a transparent veil.

[Graendal's] thin blue Domani gown clung and more than hinted. As usual she had a ring with different stones on every finger' date=' four or five gem-encrusted bracelets on each wrist, and a wide collar of huge sapphires snugged around [b']the gown’s high neck.[/b]

Given that these are in two consecutive chapters I think it's almost certainly her. I also doubt that a red herring would be quite so well hidden.

(Note: 'modest' is very subjective, and that's Mat's PoV - and it is high-necked at least)

The great thing about this theory is that it shoots itself down - the descriptions, the only thing this has going for it, don't match.

 

She may also be able to identify Mat's dreams due to this encounter, and has been able to spy on him further that way.

RJ said Mat's dreams are protected as a side effect of his medallion.

 

Guys, i think I have an answer.

I don't have books 4 to 6, so hopefully someone can check this out.

From memory, books 4 - 6 have lolial's viewpoint on the ogier. His last development was he stood up at the council?

 

given that the council takes a long time to decide things, and im guessing its probably been a year or two since book six, they could have made the decision to follow rand into battle and tarmon gaidon?

 

What do you guys think? I dont think anyone has commented on ogier very recently.

 

Im very confident myself that the ogier have to be re-engaged piror to tarmon gaidon and the next book would be the logical place to put it.

Loial goes to speak with the Great Stump in book 11. This is something that is very likely to show up, in AMoL if not ToM, but does't really fit this specific thing.

 

When Mat and Rand went through the doorway (along with Moiraine, TSR Into the Doorway) the people inside were telling them to hurry because of the strain.(Because of their Tav'?) Pg 252 about halfway. Has this been discussed?  Maybe Mat will disrupt it when he goes to rescue Moiraine? Does it keep the 2 species separated? Would be funny to see those creatures fighting each other while Mat slips out.

Lanfear was held by both the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, so they are not kept a part and we have no reason to believe they would fight.

 

a)She's using Mask of Mirrors as part of her disguise, that may affect the look/fit of the dress somewhat.

b)Graendal is smart enough not to draw undue attention to herself when disguised.

c)Mat's standards of a modest Domani dress is probably anything which isn't like a second skin :P

So she masquerades as a Domani, under a Mask of Mirrors, then goes back to her Palace and puts ona completely different disguise as a Domani when people come to visit? Graendal doesn't go in for particularly modest attire, nor do Domani. So it is an enormous stretch to go from Graendal's dress, to another dress described differently, because they both happen to be blue. There is no evidence for this theory. It makes no sense, at all. The best evidence you can come up with is that the descriptions match when they don't, and you explain that away! You explain why the two dresses don't look the same when your argument was based on them wearing the same dress. Don't you see the absurdity?

 

RJ has given us clues to deduce her identity but without making it blatently obvious.

No he hasn't. He has given us no reason to believe this is Graendal, that this woman is any more important to the books than any of the other characters mentioned in the background in the same chapter. You have a Domani woman in a Domani dress, nothing to indicate she is anything more than she seems. Also, the thing in question has to show up in later books, and this doesn't.

[1eejit]

I'm not saying the two dresses don't look the same, and it's not at all clear that that is the case.

"thin blue domani gown, clung more than hinted" can easily be the same as a domani gown judged to be "modest" from another person's PoV. An immodest Domani dress is like a second skin :P

Not to mention the rings also match well, putting it past vague coincidence.

 

The similarities of dress combined with how closely together these descriptions appeared are a pretty strong indicator given that this is a Robert Jordan book we're talking about. The master of describing details, of hiding things in plain sight.

 

 

 

 

 

No, he didn't specify modest by domani standards, but given the different background and attitudes to women between the two character's PoV's we have it's certainly not an unreasonable interpretation of the passage. Again, the dress itself would be nowhere near conclusive, despite the closeness of the two appearances, but combined with gemmed rings on every finger I think we can be pretty certain who it's meant to be.

A ring on any finger is pretty uncommon. A blue domani dress is pretty uncommon. Having both on two supposedly different characters in two consecutive chapters being solely due to coincidence strains plausibility.

[shinerfan]

I think this might actually be it but I gave away my copies of the early books years ago. Gonna have to rebuy them to look into this. What about the giant worms that live in the blight? There was a conversation between Forsaken, (Graendal $ Sammael, I think) concerning whether they would ever change now. This would seem to hint at some metamorphosis-possibly into dragons? I've got the big white world book somewhere, gonna dig it out and see what I can find.

Does anyone remember details about that exchange?