The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[fratello del lupo]

The wound and the dagger:

 

New thought, and mentioned here http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77382 in the talk w/ BS on the way to San Jose...

Brandon: ...right. exactly, or someone like Rand who continues to fight it off. He has become very paranoid. And the wound in his side, certainly someone could make the connection that that might have an influence. I won’t say for certain but…

 

Matt: ...so, the suggestion is not only does he have the taint, which is negatively influencing him, or influencing him in such ways that might bring on paranoia, there is this accentuation of it because of Fain…

 

Brandon: ...this corruption…I mean that wound and the dagger…

 

Matt: ...that is another source…

 

This jives w/ the earring.  Something that happened that has been influencing behavior continuously since it happened.  The mordeth wound causing paranoia. It isn't HUGE or game changing, it is subtle but has effected every action since it happened.  Messing with his ability to focus and channel even?? And definitely on his lack of trust.

 

BS will never verify, but this isn't something I have seen yet. The lingering influence of fain through the wound influencing rand's mindset.

 

EDIT: ...but it happened in book 7. blood and bloody ashes thought I had something...

[analyticalkeys]

He also mentioned Fain corrupting Elaida by being with her.. what book did that happen in? If it's in that timeline, it looks like we may have something to think about.

[Sharaman]

Fain stabs RaT in Book 7 - ACoS. Also it's been discussed a lot.

[Terez]

Except the list itself has been stricken.. I'm not going through all 30 pages to find the quote, but at some point BS said that everything was still game, and his assistant shouldn't have said what he did.

This hasn't been in any report that I've seen, though I have seen Brandon say that he's not going to give us any hints, so it wouldn't surprise me (though I'm still not going to waste time on things in the list).  It's obviously Mat's hat anyway.

[Terez]

I've gone back through and read all of the posts since the list was posted, and I haven't seen any Brandon quotes that say what you are saying.  I know that he has said he isn't going to give us any hints, but I was chatting with Tamyrlin when he was talking to Peter about it, and Tamyrlin himself has posted here about it here.  If you want to check the thread for yourself, everything up to post #138 has been disqualified.

 

I would suggest to the mods that someone make a new thread with the list at the top, and to close this one, so that the list won't be buried in the middle.  That seems the smart thing to do.  It would probably also be wise to quote the above paragraph from 'I was chatting' onward, with the links (for context, since I'm the one that posted in the Theoryland thread to say everything previous was disqualified), and also to post the relevant quotes in the opening post along with the list:

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Chicago Borders 28 October 2009 - Barmacral reporting

 

Brandon mentioned a tidbit about Towers of Midnight.

 

There is a very small detail in books 4-6, not sure which one that will end up playing a huge role in Towers of Midnight (might end up being in A Memory of Light, but pretty sure he said Towers of Midnight). This is on a scale of [huge Mistborn spoiler, enlarge to read] Vin's earring in Mistborn, with how that was such a minor detail touched on in book one, and ended up being the key detail that saved the day in the end. That kind of small detail.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

 

Question: You had a quote that we all talked about just recently, that there is a small detail with this secret thing. There were two quotes we put together where you told somebody from Chicago where you say this detail first comes out between books 4-6. Is that verified?

Answer: It’s been going for a long time. Somewhere in four and six the first hints of it are mentioned.

Question: But that’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned?

Answer: It’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned. It is…hints about this hidden thing appear in pretty much…in several of the books. It first, somewhere in one of those three is the beginning of where it shows up. The first hint that you get. […] I mean, it’s a small thing that means something large, that sort of thing…and you guys are very good at finding things and I’m not going to say whether you hit it or not.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Toadstool Book Shop, Milford NH 7 November 2009 - Meg Lurvey reporting

 

Brandon...confided that there is one thing that isn’t being discussed on any of the forums yet that will blow our minds when we read it. Yay!

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Union Square Barnes & Noble, NYC 9 November 2009 - Old (Peter) Salt reporting

 

Q: You mentioned a clue that occurred in books 4-6. What can you tell us about that?

A: Brandon mentioned that he isn’t on the web constantly so he can’t state for certain whether or not it has been discussed. However he doubts very strongly that it has ever been discussed at length. That being said he did say that he was ‘very surprised’ that it hasn’t been discussed. Basically he thought it more important than ‘who killed Asmodean'.

 

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Union Square Barnes & Noble, NYC 9 November 2009 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

I asked a follow up question about the big clue in books 4-6, asking if the clue became more relevant due to events in the later books, and he said that it didn't, and that it's something we should have picked up on when it appeared. He also issued a caveat (that is basically common sense) that it is possible someone discussed this issue at some point on one of the boards and that he didn't see that, but that he has never seen it raised in his lurkings, and that this issue is more important than who killed you-know-who.

 

Brandon is concerned about the HCFFs digging and digging for the surprise in books 4-6 and ruining it for TOM. Also, he stated he never read anyone discussing it but it is possible someone has. Also, it is some puzzle that should have been looked at when it was first revealed. It's bigger than who killed Asmodean, according to Brandon.

But that's just a suggestion.  It is a lot easier to refer people back to the opening post than to refer them to a point in the middle of a long thread.

 

[Graendals favourite]

On the Mat and dagger thing, I am trying to scan Mat's thoughts since tSR, hopefully catching at least what had caught my attention earlier. In tSR and LoC, this thing is very faint (probably I had thought of it before but thought there wasn't grounds to suspect particularly.)

 

Anyway, I only saw:

tSR Imre Stand

One driver kept trying to interest the Aiel in a heavy, gold-worked crossbow with no success. The crossbow caught Mat's eye, all those inlaid gold lions with what seemed to be rubies for eyes. Small, but still rubies.

LoC A Different Dance

Mat grimaced so fiercely that a sweaty-faced hawker trying to sell him a dagger, the hilt half covered in colourful glass "gems," nearly dropped the thing, burying himself in the crowd.

 

I have a feeling there might be more after, so I will scan Mat povs through, though not very quickly, since that kind of reading but not reading gives you a head-ache when done too long.

[clu7ch]

Fain is hanging out with Elaida in FoH

[analyticalkeys]

I've gone back through and read all of the posts since the list was posted, and I haven't seen any Brandon quotes that say what you are saying.  I know that he has said he isn't going to give us any hints, but I was chatting with Tamyrlin when he was talking to Peter about it, and Tamyrlin himself has posted here about it here.  If you want to check the thread for yourself, everything up to post #138 has been disqualified.

 

Honestly, it was posted that he said that somewhere in here, but maybe that person thought better of it, because I looked back to find it for you, but it's no longer there.. possibly edited out, or something. I'm going to scan through the topic one more time.. but this is like one of those wild goose chases, with lots of obstacles to duck and dodge in between.  :-\

[lillcheese]

I know I've thrown a few ideas out there, mostly because I'm posting as I think of things on my reread. 

 

I was wondering, how much has Mat's Ashendorai (sp?) been discussed?  I vaguely recall someone mentioning that BS thought we should have been thinking about this "riddle" as soon as we saw it.  Well, I was reading Mat's finnland adventure and it occurred to me that I have no idea which request the ashendorai is supposed to fill.  Mat got 4 things out of the visit - memories, foxhead medallion, ashendorai and departure. 

 

So, people who have been on the forums for years, has this been discussed?

[Thorn]

I know I've thrown a few ideas out there, mostly because I'm posting as I think of things on my reread. 

 

I was wondering, how much has Mat's Ashendorai (sp?) been discussed?  I vaguely recall someone mentioning that BS thought we should have been thinking about this "riddle" as soon as we saw it.  Well, I was reading Mat's finnland adventure and it occurred to me that I have no idea which request the ashendorai is supposed to fill.   Mat got 4 things out of the visit - memories, foxhead medallion, ashendorai and departure. 

 

So, people who have been on the forums for years, has this been discussed?

 

That's a really good question. I'd asked myself that before a few times, since I couldn't figure out how the ashan'darei fit in, and decided that either

 

1) the *finn just like to write people messages engraved on power-wrought weapons, or

 

2) by ta'veren twisting, it was one of the many power-wrought items in the square, so they just picked it out of everything.

 

All in all it doesn't make much sense though, you're right. Is the ashan'darei steel or iron, even if power-wrought iron?

[Mr Ares]

Let me answer this with the same tone as 99&99/100ths % of Mr. Ares posts/statements/proclamations.

I wouldn't advise it. It takes years of practice, and a level of skill. I don't think you're equipped for it. You see, it requires you to not only be an arrogant sod, it also requires you to be funny, right, merciless, completely incapable of caring about the feelings of others, thus treading on them, and many more things besides. Most people just end up failing miserably. I'm unique. My awesomeness is a curse, lifting me up above everyone else. But don't worry, I don't hate you lesser mortals for it.

 

"I Told You .." in post #1 Sanderson makes perfectly clear he is NOT going to give any yes or no, up or down indication to any of these theories. So it is perfectly apparent that his assistant (Buford or whatever his name is) is playing people. It's unlikely he'd do the exact opposite of his boss's expressed desire NOT to help people with this question.

In other words, the list is perfectly valid, and anyone who ignores it is wrong.

 

One thing which happened in book 4 was that Rand rammed Callandor into the Stone. He put traps around it. In book 6, he inverts the weaves. Then when Narishma pulled it out, he complained that there were more traps than what Rand told him (happens in book 8 ). Could that be it?

Sammael embellished the weaves. The Callandor factor started in Book 3 by the way.

Any evidence for that?

No, it's just a theory some people like.

 

1. is there any way to force a poster to first read the list of stricken topics before posting?

No. If there was, we'd have used it on the Asmo threads, not to mention making sure people didn't keep posting Olver/Cain and Taimandred.

 

therefore, i dont think something should be excluded just because it involves something previously mentioned--on condition that it is mentioned in some sort of new light in 4-6

An interesting point, though I'm not sure how much help it will be. We should maybe try to keep it in mind.

 

Except the list itself has been stricken.. I'm not going through all 30 pages to find the quote, but at some point BS said that everything was still game, and his assistant shouldn't have said what he did. Take that as you will.

Said quote does not exist. The list stands. A poster on here decided to ignore it, BS hasn't said it was wrong.

 

forgive me but you guys are literally a living encyclopedia--

I'm not, dammit, I'm a figurative living encyclopaedia!

 

when do we have that scene where the Amayar looks at the female CK?  is that in 4-6?

Book 9, I believe.

 

EDIT: ...but it happened in book 7. blood and bloody ashes thought I had something...

I felt the same way when I had to shoot down my own theory (another thing introduced in book 7). I hope BS is right about it being books 4-6. Be terrible if he said a bit later, "actually, it might be 5-7, it certainly isn't 4."

 

He also mentioned Fain corrupting Elaida by being with her.. what book did that happen in? If it's in that timeline, it looks like we may have something to think about.

Book 5. Not sure how much difference it would make though. Fain just sort of exacerbated Elaida's natural crazy leanings. Elaida's actions have been discussed a fair bit, with Fain's influence brought up, but I don't see how it could become important in future. Still, that doesn't rule it out.

[Vulgir]

 

• Liandrin's and the Black Ajahs plan to setup Mazrim Taim as a False dragon.  She knows compulsion, perhaps she used compulsion on Mazrim?  For a time when he proclaims himself as the True Dragon? (Yet to come)

The Pattern will not allow it -- when Rand revealed himself over the sky at Falme, bad things immediately happened to all 3 False Dragons. Then in TDR Moiraine got worried when she heard about Masema, thinking at first that there had been another False Dragon proclaim himself (which, if true, would have meant that Rand wasn't really the real Dragon Reborn).

 

 

This seems to me to have some merit in it. We heard at the beginning of TSR that this scheme might exist (and Moiraine believes it's the most likely to be true), then Taim manages to escape somehow, and when we next see him (at the beginning of LOC) he already seems to be his evil self. Now, I'm not saying that he wasn't like that beforehand for sure, just that it stands to reason that this is where they got to him. Plus, this could be why BS said books 4-6. Unfortunately, I can't say for sure whether or not this got discussed before, so if someone saw it somewhere, could you post a reference here?

 

I really like this idea, it fits the criteria and certainly hasnt been discuessed much. Also look at what Taim wheres, no pins, just dragons on his sleaves, Taim's not demandred, but hes so so so so so similar that theres more going on there than meets the eye, even more than people suspect. Except its on the list i posted....

[Thorn]

So far, it looks like the best contenders are Mat's ashan'darei and the recession of the Blight. Neither has been fully explained, both happened in the appropriate book range, and either could prove pivotal.

[Vulgir]

So far, it looks like the best contenders are Mat's ashan'darei and the recession of the Blight. Neither has been fully explained, both happened in the appropriate book range, and either could prove pivotal.

 

Ashan'darei is on the list i posted. Its not that, besides it has already served its purpose in attracting Tuon.

[Vulgir]

Heres the list again since actually reading the thread is too much work

 

Moggy creating Bridgette

Lilwein Shipless

Egwene’s Use of need in TAR

Nynaeve and Elyane using Need in TAR

Fel talking with Rand

Farstrider in Grendals lair

The Tinker’s Song

Message in blood from the Tinkers to “Tell the Dragon Reborn”

Demandred Massing Armies

Perrin and Finnland

The Ghoolam

Demandred’s interaction with the DO

Sistters sent to recapture Taim

Rest of the 13 BA

Who killed Sahra Covenry

Graendel meeting with Ilutrade

Doorway Ter”angreal

Fel’s Note to Min

TO live you must become Morridin “Die”

Morroianes wishes to the Finn

Rand’s Effect on the Weather “The Fisher King Theme”

The sword “Justice”

Taim Setting up the BT

The BA setting up Taim as the Dragon

War in Shara

Mind Traps

Moirraines Letters to Tom and Rand

Why Matt got the Ashandarei

Matt’s medallion

Avendesora

Missing Theodrin

 

If your path has anything to do with these items, your heading the wrong way

[Terez]

So far, it looks like the best contenders are Mat's ashan'darei and the recession of the Blight. Neither has been fully explained, both happened in the appropriate book range, and either could prove pivotal.

As I pointed out in the Theoryland thread on the Blight recession, it was introduced in book one.  Even the guy that proposed the theory over there gave up on it after I pointed that out, but apparently the guy who linked the thread didn't read the whole thing.

[blue13326]

I don't know if this has been said before, I'm new here and haven't read through everything, and I don't know if this is from the proper book range, but the key to the whole series to me has been that Rand is the Fisher (the game piece was modeled from an ancient version of the Dragon).

 

At the end of this most recent work, he has nearly finished his physical transformation into the game piece--the worn cloak, the missing hand, the staff, all that is required is for him to have problems with his eyes, which we know already started a book or two ago, the Seanchan Empress says he will go blind before he will submit and the last battle begins, and the end of the book discusses a scrap of prophecy about his blindness (raising the question as to whether he actually has to go physically blind or whether the blindness was a spiritual one).

 

If you view Rand as the Fisher, the theme of control makes perfect sense; he is constantly struggling against being a game piece in the neverending cosmic struggle, yet he is constantly trying to be captured and used in the game; and, so of course, the Dark One does not want to kill him--that's not how you win the game; you win the game by using and controlling the Fisher.

[yoniy0]

I don't know if this has been said before, I'm new here and haven't read through everything, and I don't know if this is from the proper book range, but the key to the whole series to me has been that Rand is the Fisher (the game piece was modeled from an ancient version of the Dragon).

 

At the end of this most recent work, he has nearly finished his physical transformation into the game piece--the worn cloak, the missing hand, the staff, all that is required is for him to have problems with his eyes, which we know already started a book or two ago, the Seanchan Empress says he will go blind before he will submit and the last battle begins, and the end of the book discusses a scrap of prophecy about his blindness (raising the question as to whether he actually has to go physically blind or whether the blindness was a spiritual one).

 

If you view Rand as the Fisher, the theme of control makes perfect sense; he is constantly struggling against being a game piece in the neverending cosmic struggle, yet he is constantly trying to be captured and used in the game; and, so of course, the Dark One does not want to kill him--that's not how you win the game; you win the game by using and controlling the Fisher.

 

Oh, yeah, I agree (and Verin does as well). To me it seems that having Rand touch the TP is, for example, much preferable for the DO than say, letting Semi bind him and bring him to SG.

About this blind thing, I think Tuon only has that particular prophecy from the Essanik cycle to go by, and if I'm not mistaken, BS is quoted to say that that prophecy has been realized at Ebou Dar (blindness only a metaphor for not realizing his own emotional situation).

 

But do you think that this is what we've missed? That Rand is being manipulated by the DO?

[Bob T Dwarf]

But do you think that this is what we've missed? That Rand is being manipulated by the DO?

 

It's been kind of hard to miss because that manipulation has been so blatant.

 

It all goes back to how stupid the Forsaken have been.  Other than some personal playtime here and there, they've been working to a script.  Why none of these supposedly crafty people saw that they were being positioned as sacrificial pieces is a better question.  Everything they've done has had the end effect of making a hayseed shepherd into a talented, experienced, and hardened battle commander and politician.

 

Exactly why the DO wants him to be those things is another good question.  Or is the DO simply too blind to see what he has made Rand into?

[yoniy0]

Or is the DO simply too blind to see what he has made Rand into?

 

No, I won't believe that the DO is as unsophisticated as you imply. For some reason, it's vital to his plans that Rand become who he has. Now, what I will consider, is that the DO isn't as keen on Rand becoming experienced as much as paranoid, depressed, hardened to the point of inhumanity ("he must know anguish of heart..."), and he did get his way for a long time now. It might turn out that some of Rand's actions in preparing and fighting the last battle will work to serve the DO's plans. I'll bet that the last scene on tGS was not part of his plan, though. Begs the question of whether the Wheel is capable of using the DO's actions to its own purposes...

 

But I'm getting off topic. As you said, I don't believe it could be argued that we missed that manipulation taking place

[Basic]

Hiya there, first time posting here. I've been lurking here a bit since tGS came out, so maybe its time to get involved a bit!

 

One thing that seems feasible to me for the 'unnoticed detail' (at the moment!) would be the dice in Mat's head. They're certainly mentioned frequently, seem small enough to have evaded serious dicussion, as well as being something that could well be important in a big way. I don't believe they've been mentioned yet in this thread, although correct me if i'm wrong!

 

That said, i don't have my books with me at the moment, and won't until christmas, so i need two questions answering really. When are the dice first mentioned? I must say, if i had a guess myself i probably would have said books 4-6, although i can't help but feel it might be earlier. Also, has this topic been discussed heavily enough to rule it out? I would've expected it to be combed over a fair bit, but has it?

 

And here's one for you: what if they're linked to Mat's hat? No? Maybe not  ;D

[Terez]

Hiya there, first time posting here. I've been lurking here a bit since tGS came out, so maybe its time to get involved a bit!

 

One thing that seems feasible to me for the 'unnoticed detail' (at the moment!) would be the dice in Mat's head.

Introduced in book 3, alas, and I'm thinking it will be a more minor detail than that.  Have you read Mistborn?

 

Anyway, welcome to the online fandom.  ;D 

 

I started a faction group at Theoryland for Mat's hat.  :D  I don't even know that I believe that....but it's a fun idea anyway...

[Lambada]

Hmm...

According to Encyclopedia-WoT the dice in Mats Head came in in tFoH (i.e. Book 5)

 

# Mat decides that he really is going to leave. He goes to Rand's tent to tell him and winds up analyzing the next day's battle plan with Lan. He feels the dice rattling for the first time. (TFoH,Ch42)

[Basic]

Bah, i thought it might've been book 3. Oh well.

 

I must say, when i first read your theory about Mat's hat on theoryland i cracked up, couldn't stop laughing. But the more i think about it, the more sense it makes. I'm almost taking it seriously now  ;D

 

And thanks for the welcome!

[Terez]

Hmm...

According to Encyclopedia-WoT the dice in Mats Head came in in tFoH (i.e. Book 5)

 

# Mat decides that he really is going to leave. He goes to Rand's tent to tell him and winds up analyzing the next day's battle plan with Lan. He feels the dice rattling for the first time. (TFoH,Ch42)

I will fish out the quote later.  He heard them in Tear in The Dragon Reborn for sure, and I'm thinking maybe in Tar Valon as well.  The Encyclopaedia isn't always right.  Though I suppose I'll email them later when I dig up the quote...