The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Ashaman Kovan]

I'm pretty sure that was just Mashadar. Or something related to it. The eyes of all the people consumed by it. Or something.

[Lambada]

I'm pretty sure that was just Mashadar. Or something related to it. The eyes of all the people consumed by it. Or something.

That's what I thought too. But the descriptions seem similar, that it makes me wonder if the eyes in TaR are similar - people who died in TaR or the Finns (Who certainly seem fairly malevolent).

 

I think the descriptions are too similar to pass off.

[Luckers]

Something related to the BUT being the unseen eyes in TaR is the fact that we got a very similar description of unseen watchers way back in Book 1 in Shadar Logoth.

 

Not sure what to make of it atm

 

Any thoughts?

 

We also see them at the beginning of tGH with Fain the most likely source. I actually wrote a theory out suggesting that the Unseen Eyes of TAR are the evil that twisted Mordeth and led to the creation of Shadar Logoth--its listed in the Theory Database thread.

[Mystica]

not sure if this has already been opted and no way im reading through 257 pages of posts, so here's my random thought as I'm re-reading LoC. When Taim first comes to Rand, he brings with him one of the Seals on the DO's prison. Instantly Lews Therin starts screeching in Rand's head 'destroy it! have to destroy it!'. The intensity of the 'mad'man is so big that before he realises, Rand was literally poised on the verge of smashing the disc to the ground. Both hands raised up over his head, holding the disc. 

 

fast forward to TGS. Min continues to study the notes from the scholar and comes to the realisation that the scholar concluded that the Seals on the DO's prison would have to be destroyed in order to win the Last Battle and defeat the DO.

 

Everyone has a tendency (especially in the early books, such as LoC) to disregard whatever Lews said due to his mad state, but later in the books it becomes clear that what he says, eventhough stark raising mad, more often than not has more than a little truth, value and validity. The event was small and easily overlooked and forgotten in the scope of everything else that happened.

 

It jus stood out to me now that I have read TGS (for the 4th time). Not at all certain this is what Brandon meant, but thought I'd throw it on the pile with everything else.

[lillcheese]

I've been away for a few months.  I remember the good ole days when this thread was all new and shiny.  *sigh*.  Anyhoo, I don't remember what page this was on when I left.  I started reading again at Luckers's declaration of position. Hmm.. what was my point?

 

Oh yes.  First, someone in the past several pages mentioned Asmo made a beeline for the CK keys and wondered how he knew they were in Rhuidean.  Mat told him.  Mat starts describing the ter'angreal and Asmo starts grilling him for details.  Supposedly to make a song out of it.

 

But I wouldn't bother posting that on its own.  I had another point.  Thinking. . .  

 

Oh yes, regarding Lucker's compilation. Section 2.5, regarding Mat's link to the Horn.  I thought I read once upon a time someone quoting RJ that the link was restored when Mat's death was undone.  That's very specific of me, right?  Is there anyone out there who can verify, maybe even with the original quote?

 

ETA:  Having reached the end of the compilation, I looked at the quote page at theoryland and found nothing.  Still looking, but now I think perhaps I misremembered. 

[StefanR]

Bashere's broken crown

 

 

[Orderofolde]

No, somewhere in one of the trips where Elayne visits the borderlanders and their camp in Andor, there is a brief blurb calling the crown of Saldea the "Broken Crown," much like the Illian crown is the "Crown of Swords."  It's been a while since I listened to my audiobooks back that far, but there was a lot of wonder about the "Broken Crown" as Faile had mentioned it or it was present during some of her talks with Perrin.

[FarShainMael]

Going back a few pages..

 

Even loonier theory.. I wonder if it's Callandor Mk2? You know, the other male sa'angreal? Maybe, if Mat is going to be using his shiny new black yew bow, perhaps Rand will take over the ashandarei?

 

(AFAIK, Rand hasn't handled it at all, except perhaps briefly when he was

unhooking Mat in Rhuidean.)

 

Rand would feel that the object is power related if he is close to it. And if he touches it, he would definitely know.

 

Rand encounters Mat in tFoH Ch52, and he's holding his spear, so Rand ought to be able to tell I would think.. unless, of course, his foxhead medallion is hiding it!

 

[Sharaman]

As far as one can figure, Rand has not really ever touched it.

Perhaps at Rhuidean when he pulls off Mat off and gives CPR.

After that, Mat has shown it to him at close quarters when he can't read the writing but that's pretty much it.

It's still very far fetched to consider it a ter'angreal.

 

We've seen no indication that it is anything except a power-wrought naginata, "given" to Mat as a proof of contractual fulfilment.

‘Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made.

Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades.

What was asked is given. The price is paid.’

 

 

[FarShainMael]

Ah well, I did say it was a loony theory.. RAFO I think!  ;)

 

[NetSlider]

Probably not the but, however, it might be important to figure out how they stuck him to Avendasora with their limitations.  Might be important for the Tower of Ghenji

Well, Slayer might be a good candidate to consider...

No - Rhuidean can't be reached from TAR. Nor can Finnland.

Actually, FInnland can. Remember Parrin chasing slayer...he did enter Tower from TAR.

Perrin didn't enter the Tower and the Tower is not in Finnland itself, it's a portal to Finnland.

 

Quote from ACoS tour 1996

 

Q: Also, what was going on in Aelfland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they traveling in time?

RJ: Not traveling in time. the physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is really bad. You can not go to Aelfland in Tel'aran'rhiod (similar to stedding).

 

 

I didn't mean that you can "wish" yourself to Finnland in TAR. What I meant is that there is a way to get to Finn through TAR via the Tower. Which makes me wonder, is there some way to get to SG as well?...

[Sharaman]

Why would the Finns need Slayer or anybody else to hang Mat? Clearly they grab him and overpower him themselves. The doorway is a few paces walk from the Tree. They can just walk out, string him up and walk back in.

 

For Slayer - you'd need him to wander into ToG, then take some sort of short-cut through the Finn realms (where the physics are different but we don't know how) to come to the Rhuidean gateway.

BTW nothing in his PoV really suggests that he has dealings with the Finns.

 

SG - the entire Blight is supposedly inaccessible from TAR.

I'd guess however, that given the the Rand-Ishamel-Moridin dream sequences that TAR is accessible from SG. if its a one-way connection, it begs the question of how Slayer goes "home" from TAR of course.

 

 

 

 

[NetSlider]

Why would the Finns need Slayer or anybody else to hang Mat? Clearly they grab him and overpower him themselves. The doorway is a few paces walk from the Tree. They can just walk out, string him up and walk back in.

 

For Slayer - you'd need him to wander into ToG, then take some sort of short-cut through the Finn realms (where the physics are different but we don't know how) to come to the Rhuidean gateway.

BTW nothing in his PoV really suggests that he has dealings with the Finns.

 

SG - the entire Blight is supposedly inaccessible from TAR.

I'd guess however, that given the the Rand-Ishamel-Moridin dream sequences that TAR is accessible from SG. if its a one-way connection, it begs the question of how Slayer goes "home" from TAR of course.

 

 

 

 

I really doubt that Finns can leave "their" world. If they could, why would they be so excited for people start coming in again? obviously they "enjoy" in some way from interacting with humans and if they simply can leave their domain they would. No, I think that someone else besides Finns had to get Mat out. Slayer just seems like a most likely candidate considering that we know he goes inside the tower from TAR when Perrin tries to hunt him. It can not be more clear that Slayer does have some sort of relationship with the Finns. The POV that we have from him is very, very limited. Now, for him to travel to Rhuidean would be very easy as he enters TAR in flash and than just really fast jump to Rhuidean (just as Eggy did on her way to Salidar (sp)).

Regarding Rand coming to Ishy's dream that is a very interesting point. I never realized the complication it has. What if, and this is only if, Rand was not really in TAR when talking to Moridin, but instead was in some other place all together? What if (and this is the part when I'm going to say something really, really loony) he was actually inside the DO's prison or some place very closely related to the DO's prison? I do tend to believe that the bore Lanfear made was done in some way through or with the help of TAR.

[Sharaman]

The Finns don't control the physics of the Wotland world so they can't access memories, tell fates, hand out gifts, etc. So they don't get "excited" about it or "Enjoy" meeting people in Wotland.

 

But there's no stated prohibition AFAIK about the Finns able to come and go between their realm and the Wotland, and there are legends about people meeting them in the Seanchan culture as well. So they may be perfectly capable of traveling normally about in the Wotland world. 

 

There's no proof that Slayer entered the ToG. He disappeared near it but he may just have left TAR. When  RJ was asked to confirm if Slayer went into ToG he RAFO-ed.

 

On what else except the fact that Slayer went near the ToG in TAR do you deduce a connection to the Finns?

 

Slayer cannot reach Rhuidean "in a flash" without your making some assumptions.

Rhuidean itself cannot be reached in TaR at this point of the TSR story. It is only able to be reached after Rand-Asmodean tear down the OP shield later. Amys tells Egwene this when Egwene suggests watching Rhuidean through TAR.

If Slayer is coming to hang Mat, he must 1)appear outside Rhuidean in TAR and then walk into Rhuidean past the shield - this will take some time and Aiel may see him.

2) he must get into ToG (other side of the Wotland continent), and then go into Finnland and travel through Finnland to the Rhuidean doorway. We don't know how long it will take since Finnland physics is different.

 

I find it easier to believe that the Finns who knocked out Mat, simply hanged him as well.

 

[aunt_pol]

Will just disagree with the second part of your first point there Sharaman. Moiraine did tell Rand & Mat that the Finns got something from sifting through human memories/thoughts/experiences. And I think they did a lot of heavy breathing in Mat's POVs?! Ick!

[metallicafan08]

One thing I never understood about the whole Rhuidean scene and Mat's hanging is that Rand and Mat were in Rhuidean for 7 days!? So I can kinda understand Rand goin into the glass colums and seeing the history of the aiel and time flowing at a different rate so he thought he was there for a few hours but on leaving realises it was 7 days. But it doesn't make sense with Mat? Either Mat and Rand were only in Rhuidean for a few hours but once you enter Rhuidean time flows differently, so when Rand leaves the glass colums its just luck that he comes out just in time to save Mat. Or the alternative is they were actually in Rhuidean for 7 days but Mat couldn't have been hanging from the tree for 7 days waiting for Rand to save him. I suppose there could be the possibility that they were both in Rhuidean for 7 days and when Mat entered the Doorway luck or Ta'verenism meant he was in there for the same amont of time that Rand was in the colums so Rand came out just in time to save him?? The other possibility makes no sense, that maybe Rand was in the colums for 7 days but Mat was only in the land of the Aelfinn for a few hours but then they held him there for 7 days only to hang him from the tree just in time for Rand to save him?? One more possibility thinking about it (and this is a crazy theory) is that Mat was only through the Doorway for a few hours and then got chucked back through the Doorway by the Finns, then SOMEBODY ELSE hung him from the tree? And who do we know was in Rhuidean at the time?? That's right moiraine!! now bear with me but what if one of her answers from going through the doorway in Tear was that she had to come to Rhuidean and hang Mat from the tree by the spear, maybe for no other reason than he needed the spear as it is going to be very important to him in the future and this way he thinks its a gift from the Finns but it was Moiraine all along!! Whatever the reason it's a bit strange? What do people think????

[Sharaman]

Will just disagree with the second part of your first point there Sharaman. Moiraine did tell Rand & Mat that the Finns got something from sifting through human memories/thoughts/experiences. And I think they did a lot of heavy breathing in Mat's POVs?! Ick!

 

So what are you disagreeing with? I agree with you and Moiraine. I'm just saying that they need to initiate this process in their own realm, not in Wotland, which is why, to quote netslider, they get more "excited" if a human being comes to their realm than about them going to Wotland.

 

@metalicafan - time flows differently in Finnland.

 

[Fleety]

New Theory

I've been pondering this one for a while.  I've read every page in this thread too  :o :o. And last time I checked, it wasnt in Lurkers compilation thread. I could be wrong on both accounts though. ::)

 

Given the BUT is similar to the Mistborn unnoticed thing, I began to think about the Mistborn series. In that series, it was an ear-ring right?  I've read someone's summary of the Mistborn Unnoticed thing.

 

Is it similar in that people don't notice it, or is it similar in that it's like an ear-ring, or both?

 

It got me thinking. What is something in Randland's major characters that is like an ear-ring?

 

My suggestion is Rand's Dragons on his arms, the ones he got at Rhuidean. I suspect they may be a Ter'angreal, that we don't know the purpose yet (maybe channel in Shayol Guyol??).

 

We do know that it's possible for a terangreal to make other power wrought devices - such as the terangreal that makes the Warders shifting cloaks.

 

And we do know that Aes Sedai often wear *angreal in their hair (Cadsuane) or as a necklace (Mat).  So it's not beyond the realms of possibility. And these *angreal can appear sparkly, like Rand's jewels.

 

Now, Rand got thse Dragons at Rhuidean. Rhuidean contained many *angreal transported by the Jenn Aiel on behalf of the AoL Aes Sedai. One particualar device (the glass columns maybe) marks Clan Chiefs with one Dragon (we dont know how/if it marks the women, survival is enough).  We know it marked Rand twice, marking him as He who comes with the dawn. It the thing that marks Clan Chief a ter'angreal?

 

Apart from marking him, could the rose coloured jewels in his arms be a ter'angreal? He certainly looks at them and wonders what they mean:

 

From The Shadow Rising (Book 5) - Chapter 9 - Decisions

He turned his hands over, looking at the heron branded into each palm. He had examined them so often that he could have sketched every line perfectly from memory. The Prophecies foretold them.

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die.

Once the heron to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.

 

But if the herons “named him true,” what need for Dragons? For that matter, what was a Dragon? The only Dragon he had ever heard of was Lews Therin Telamon. Lews Therin Kinslayer had been the Dragon; the Dragon was the Kinslayer. Except now there was himself. But he could not be marked with himself. Perhaps the figure on the banner was a Dragon; not even Aes Sedai seemed to know what that creature was.

 

Could Rand's sparkling jewel Dragon's be a ter'angreal?  Maybe the Aol's Aes Sedai prepared a little surprise for him......

 

It begins in book 4, and continues through Book 5 (above). The only thing not going for it is ongoing reference. I dont think it is referred to enough, but I could be wrong.

 

Thoughts?

[Dreamwalker]

And last time I checked, it wasnt in Lurkers compilation thread.

 

Bahahaha! Maybe that was intentional, but if it wasn't, for future reference, his name is Luckers. But he does tend to lurk about in the shadows around here.  ;)

[lordofsoup]

And last time I checked, it wasnt in Lurkers compilation thread.

 

Bahahaha! Maybe that was intentional, but if it wasn't, for future reference, his name is Luckers. But he does tend to lurk about in the shadows around here.  ;)

 

lol

Is there any reason entering the Doorways can't be a little like going to Narnia?  Between one time you go through and the next only five minutes could pass, but then you leave and come back again and it could have been a thousand years, but only one on your side. 

[Mystica]

New Theory

I've read every page in this thread too  :o :o.

 

 

dude....... respect!

 

 

[lordofsoup]

New Theory

I've read every page in this thread too  :o :o.

 

 

dude....... respect!

 

 

 

how long it take?

[Dreamwalker]

And last time I checked, it wasnt in Lurkers compilation thread.

 

Bahahaha! Maybe that was intentional, but if it wasn't, for future reference, his name is Luckers. But he does tend to lurk about in the shadows around here.  ;)

 

lol

Is there any reason entering the Doorways can't be a little like going to Narnia?  Between one time you go through and the next only five minutes could pass, but then you leave and come back again and it could have been a thousand years, but only one on your side. 

 

Yeah that seems like it could be true, because Finnland has some really weird physics/laws of nature that are different than our own that I could totally see the nature of time being different there too. We already know that TAR is kind of like that.

[Luckers]

And last time I checked, it wasnt in Lurkers compilation thread.

 

Bahahaha! Maybe that was intentional, but if it wasn't, for future reference, his name is Luckers. But he does tend to lurk about in the shadows around here.  ;)

 

*quietly begins the kill bill whistle*

 

I've been pondering this one for a while.  I've read every page in this thread too  . And last time I checked, it wasnt in Lurkers compilation thread. I could be wrong on both accounts though.

 

You are indeed not mistaken. An original theory--impressive.

 

It fits the present but not noticed, and you're correct its very similar to the Mistborn Unnoticed thing... however there are two problems. Firstly the Dragon Tattoo's are first revealed in tDR by Rhuarc. Secondly there is nothing really in their origin or nature which should have alerted us to their significance.

 

Nevertheless this will go up in the next update of the Compilation.

[Shadow102984]

I am not sure if any one has thought of this, but what about the dead walking?