Various Issues

[Graendals favourite]

Is there way for a Hero to leave TAR than what Moghedien did to Birgitte?  In particular, to what extent could Rand still be a player after his own death?  (This might conceivably relate to "he who is dead yet lives.")

 

Guess: insufficient information.  I suspect that few people believe a gateway would suffice, but we do not really have any evidence here.

This is a great notion. I don't know about the heroes, but I am convinced this is what Isam/Luc does and what Ishamael did, only for themselves or their immediate surroundings. I realise I should take the time to prove things, but I'll just lay out the principle of the thing, this is a matter of pieces of puzzle fitting in the general picture, a matter of sketching the broader lines and not getting tangled in the detail for the moment.

 

What Moghedien did to Birgitte, Isam/Luc and Ishamael do to themselves. Why? Well, Isam/Luc cannot channel, but he must have some skill come from the Dark One to do this specific thing, alike the Myrddraal have the ability to ride Shadows. It is not done often in the series, because it is done to bring people of the Dream to the waking, and not just anyone can be brought. The Heroes cannot do it, because they cannot channel.

 

Isam/Luc is not really human, as Perrin's nose says. The Aiel Wise Ones warn entering the Dream in the flesh causes you to lose some part of what makes you human, which may of course mean many things or be false, but which may also have some residual truth in it. Isam/Luc was created in the Blight, which is a place not truly of the world. In making him the souls of Isam and Luc were combined and twisted somehow(it is not impossible Luc could have been turned to the Shadow). It is a kind of Dream, though I do not know if it is the same dream as Tel'aran'rhiod, nevertheless it cannot be accessed from the World of Dreams (of course, since the Blight is a dream itself, what could be accessed would be the land in an untainted state).

 

Ishamael was not really human, he was caught deeply in Shayol Ghul, more deeply that the others. I surmise that he could thus operate much the same way as the Dark One could, where the Dark One had sway over the world, there Ishamael could be. It follows, that it was easy for Ishamael to exist in the Dream. (Aginor and Balthamel were near the edge of the seals, and thus saw what was outside but they were further from the Dark One too. The rest of the Forsaken were in the Dark One's influence to allow them not to age, but not enough to affect the outside world, and too much not to be able to see the world in the prison.) When the Dark One gained strength to affect the world more, Ishamael could materialise out of the dream in the same way as Birgitte came out of it, and he had the capability to do this at his own will. Ishamael you could say was a dark hero, kept in Tel'aran'rhiod, or rather in Shayol Ghul, by the Dark One. Moridin is a different matter altogether, he is a real person with Ishamael's soul inserted in him.

 

The bore is no more closer to the world in Shayol Ghul than anywhere else, thus also the Dark One exists everywhere, but because of the thinness in the Pattern, it is easier for him to affect matters in the Blight. It took effort from him to have Ishamael materialise out of the prison, it took effort to fix the seasons, it takes effort to bring in the ghosts, it takes effort to have nightmares materialise out of the Dream (This presumably being what Bubbles of Evil are, the Dark One doing the same to nightmares in the Dream as Moghedien did to Birgitte).

 

Also, we have many examples of people being brought to the Dream, or at least different realities, such as the Eye was, what happened in Falme, how Rhuidean was protected, how Shadar Logoth was removed from the reality outside. The Ways.

 

Now I understand Moiraine when she said of Perrin talking to wolves, is this the Pattern or the Dark One, by whose hand do the changes come. Does Mat have the Dark One's own luck. Because having some of the Dream mix with the real world, it would certainly be possible to have unusual things happen. Could it be the Dark One's sway over the world that allows Mat his twisting of chance?

[Mr Ares]

Is there way for a Hero to leave TAR than what Moghedien did to Birgitte?

Horn of Valere and spun out as normal. It is impossible to take T'a'r constructs out of the Dream, but it is unknown if the same would apply to Heroes. Given their importance, and their limited numbers, and that Birgitte nearly died, I would advise caution with any experiments.

[DemandredFO]

I'm just re-listening to tDR and noticed something.  When Egwene told sheriam after her second trip through the rings that He said they(dark channelers) could turn him.  Sheriam misses a step and reluctantly tells Egwene that it's true.  However, she never asked who the He was, the way Aes Sedai hold He's that channel I would think even disconcerted Sheriam would ask who the He was.  Maybe it's nothing but I just thought I'd ask.

[mb]

If a Hero was a channeler when it lived, would it also be a channeler when the Horn summons it?  Would the Hero also be a channeler when it is spun out and/or ripped out?

 

When traveling with the Aiel in the pass, how was Rand able to set different sounds for different directions on the wards?

Did Rand learn Compulsion any time?  The possibilities would have been Asmodean, Lews Therin, Ashaman that guarded him.  We know Rand learn Healing; I guess from Ashaman.

 

When Birgitte was ripped out, Nynaeve feared that Birgitte was no longer a Hero.  Was Nynaeve correct?

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

If a Hero was a channeler when it lived, would it also be a channeler when the Horn summons it?  Would the Hero also be a channeler when it is spun out and/or ripped out?

 

We don't know for sure, in both cases.  However, the Dragon is the only channeler we know of who is tied to the Wheel.  None of the others have shown the ability either in our encounters with them, or in the stories we have of their past incarnations.  The ability to channel requires an element from the the soul and an element from the body, so this is a question we're not likely to be able to answer without seeing it happen.

 

When traveling with the Aiel in the pass, how was Rand able to set different sounds for different directions on the wards?

 

By weaving a slight difference in the wards.

 

Did Rand learn Compulsion any time?

 

Not that we know of.

 

When Birgitte was ripped out, Nynaeve feared that Birgitte was no longer a Hero.  Was Nynaeve correct?

 

No.  Min has seen as many adventures in her future as in her past, still intertwined with the life of Gaidal Cain.  Whether it is a connection to the Power through Elayne that re-attached her, or whether it would have happened on its own anyway, its clear that she is now or will be reattached to the Wheel.

 

I'm just re-listening to tDR and noticed something.  When Egwene told sheriam after her second trip through the rings that He said they(dark channelers) could turn him.  Sheriam misses a step and reluctantly tells Egwene that it's true.  However, she never asked who the He was, the way Aes Sedai hold He's that channel I would think even disconcerted Sheriam would ask who the He was.  Maybe it's nothing but I just thought I'd ask.

 

Sheriam has done (or not done) a number of suspicious things.  Whether it is normal Aes Sedai caginess or a sign of something else is not entirely clear.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

If a Hero was a channeler when it lived, would it also be a channeler when the Horn summons it?  Would the Hero also be a channeler when it is spun out and/or ripped out?

Whether it happened in an Age where channeling is possible or not could be important to this.

[mb]

Would Lews Therin be able to do channeling to Rand?

 

How is Slayer able to enter Telaranrhiod in the flesh?  Channelers can use gateways to enter in the flesh, but Slayer is not a channeler.

Would Birgitte and/or a spun out Hero be able to enter in the flesh?

 

The place to access other people's dreams, would a non-Dreamwalker be able to enter there?

Perrin (and supposedly other wolfbrothers) can purposely enter Telaranrhiod like a Dreamwalker can, would he (and them) also be access other people's dreams?

 

Would gleemen be able to at least learn the One Power?

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Would Lews Therin be able to do channeling to Rand?

 

I assume by "do channeling" you're referring to Rand's memories from and conversations with Lews Therin, some of which involve specific weaves and methods of channeling.

 

Well, let me say first, we don't have a definitive answer.

 

That said, I'm going to speculate.  I personally think that one of the effects of the taint is to blur the effects of time itself, or rather, the effects of the barriers that time places between events.  (That requires a LENGTHY explanation, so if you disagree with me, just say so and move on, I'm not derailing this thread with my reasoning there)  So, in this case, I speculate that the actual persona of Lews Therin can communicate with his current persona, Rand al'Thor.

 

How is Slayer able to enter Telaranrhiod in the flesh?  Channelers can use gateways to enter in the flesh, but Slayer is not a channeler

 

We don't know, exactly, but it is directly involved in changing personas.

 

Would Birgitte and/or a spun out Hero be able to enter in the flesh?

 

Yes, if a channeler opened a gateway for him/her, just the same as any other person.

 

The place to access other people's dreams, would a non-Dreamwalker be able to enter there?

 

Probably not.

 

Perrin (and supposedly other wolfbrothers) can purposely enter Telaranrhiod like a Dreamwalker can, would he (and them) also be access other people's dreams?

 

We don't know for sure, but probably not.  What Perrin does is NOT the same as Dreamwalking, it is a different way to access Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Would gleemen be able to at least learn the One Power?

 

Not unless they were born with the spark or the ability to learn, just like anyone else.  Being a gleeman is an occupation, they're just regular people.

 

[Mr Ares]

How is Slayer able to enter Telaranrhiod in the flesh?

Something Shai'tan did to him.

[CUBAREY]

also be access other people's dreams?

 

It's an ability that must be trained. Who would train Perrin or any wolfbrother.

[Jethro]

Entering other peoples dreams is an aspect of the Dreamwalker Talent. You must be born with the ability I think. Which means Ishamael has the Talent if I am right.

 

Perrin is not a Dreamwalker. Anyone can enter TAR in their own dreams, yet the Wolfbrother ability seems to give Perrin more control over his dreams. That does NOT make him a Dreamwalker. However, we have ample evidence that Perrin is a Dreamer, having glimpses of the present or future in his dreams much like Egwene does, but that is where the similarities end. Perrin is a Dreamer, not a Dreamwalker. He sees bits of the future in his dreams, but he cannot enter the dreams of others.

[mb]

When characters refer to the Light, do they mean the Creator?  If not, who or what do they mean?

 

Alantin is a term for at least male ogier, are female ogier also called alantin or is a different term used for them?

Can females have the wolfbrother ability?  If so, would they be called wolfsister or have the same term?

 

Gray Men are people who give their souls to the Dark One.  Would they be able to reproduce afterward?  If so, what would their offspring be like?

They are used as assassins; would they be able to identify who sent them?

How exactly are they able to pass undetected?

 

[Nightstrike]

When characters refer to the Light, do they mean the Creator?  If not, who or what do they mean?

I have gotten the impression that they could be meaning either The Creator or "the side of the Good ones".

 

Alantin is a term for at least male ogier, are female ogier also called alantin or is a different term used for them?

I think I've read somewhere that Alantin is an old term for Ogier. If I remember correctly, then yes, it probably includes the females.

 

Can females have the wolfbrother ability?  If so, would they be called wolfsister or have the same term?

Yes, RJ said there are wolfsisters. Or at least, there will be wolfsisters at some time in some ages.

 

Gray Men are people who give their souls to the Dark One.  Would they be able to reproduce afterward?  If so, what would their offspring be like?

I've got no idea about that. I hope they can't reproduce.

 

They are used as assassins; would they be able to identify who sent them?

I don't know about that, but I believe it's the Dark One that makes them and sends them. So, they will probably obey the Dark One. And they probably won't attack people that are not ordered to be killed. Total obedience to the DO.

 

How exactly are they able to pass undetected?

I don't know, but I imagine it's something the Dark One is able to do to them in the process of "making them" Grey Men.

 

 

[Jethro]

When characters refer to the Light, do they mean the Creator?  If not, who or what do they mean?

 

My belief is that "the Light" usually means all that is good and right, just, honorable. Randlanders, it seems to me, have almost given up on the Creator and now are pious not to the Creator himself  but to the things we as readers believe a typical God figure would stand for. We have seen it used in many different contexts. The Light burn you! Thank the Light. The Light illumine you. Light, but I wish...

[mb]

Does Illusion affect only the outside, or can it also affect the inside body parts?

 

Balefire on terangreal (and/or on other objects), would that be similar to balefire on people?  To clarify: would the last actions done with them be undone?

 

How did the gholam get to the top floor when Elayne was getting the Bowl of the Winds?  No one seemed to see it go by.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Does Illusion affect only the outside, or can it also affect the inside body parts?

 

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here ... do you mean that if, say, for example, you wove a disguise on a man to make him look like a woman, and someone then captured that person and performed exploratory surgery (for some unknown reason) to see if the "woman" had ovaries, would the Illusion show the surgeon fake ovaries?

 

My guess is no, but thats all it is, a guess ... assuming I even understood what your question was.

 

Balefire on terangreal (and/or on other objects), would that be similar to balefire on people?  To clarify: would the last actions done with them be undone?

 

Yes, the object disappears backward in time as well.  As just one example, Nynaeve's boat was not only in a different location in the river (because the rowers died and therefore their actions never happened) but it was already well into the process of sinking, because parts of the hull which were keeping the water out and the boat afloat were not longer there, as far back as the rowers. (ACoS ch 31)

 

How did the gholam get to the top floor when Elayne was getting the Bowl of the Winds?  No one seemed to see it go by.

 

It sneaked.  It is also fast.  Or maybe the building had a back door.  Or maybe it found the stuff first and staked it out.  There are an awful lot of options here.

[Luckers]

Perrin (and supposedly other wolfbrothers) can purposely enter Telaranrhiod like a Dreamwalker can, would he (and them) also be access other people's dreams?

 

RJ stated that entering Tel'aran'rhiod and entering the place where peoples dreams are are different talents (as is seeing the future in dreams). The Talents seemingly occur in concurrence, but they are apparently distinct abilities. Thus it seems unlikely Perrin could access peoples dreams if he has not already.

 

Alantin is a term for at least male ogier, are female ogier also called alantin or is a different term used for them?

 

It's the old tongue, short for 'brother'. Specifically, the phrase is tia avende alantin. Brother to the Trees--or, more acurately 'to the trees, brother'.

 

As such there likely would be a female version. Probably tia avende alantar. tin and din are male suffixes, tar and dar are female suffixes.

 

Balefire on terangreal (and/or on other objects), would that be similar to balefire on people?  To clarify: would the last actions done with them be undone?

 

To continue on Robert's answer though, the last act--of either person or ter'angreal--might not be undone... it depends on the strength of the balefire, and how far back this 'act' occurred.

 

 

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How did the gholam get to the top floor when Elayne was getting the Bowl of the Winds?  No one seemed to see it go by.

 

It sneaked.  It is also fast.  Or maybe the building had a back door.  Or maybe it found the stuff first and staked it out.  There are an awful lot of options here.

 

Actually it, and the Darkfriends sent by Sammael were there prior to Elayne, Mat and the others arrival--they removed a number of things, including the angreal Graendal wears and the binder Sammael gave the Shaido. I would assume they used the stairs.

[mb]

Door-like terangreal; if they are balefired when someone is inside, what would happen to the people inside?

Would channelers be able to do a gateway to and/or from those places?

 

If a person is both taveren and a channeler and if that person does a gateway, would both locations be affected?

Could a taveren affect the lives of people it is well acquainted with regardless of distance?

 

When Skimming, can either gateway be destroyed when people/creatures/objects are inside?  If so, what would happen to the people/creatures/objects?

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Door-like terangreal; if they are balefired when someone is inside, what would happen to the people inside?

 

Depending on the strength of the balefire, and how long ago they passed through, they might just suddenly "be" in the regular world, if the door ceased to exist before they passed through.  Otherwise, they would simply be trapped in finn'land.

 

Would channelers be able to do a gateway to and/or from those places?

 

Well ... maybe, I mean, 'finn-land is still part of the Pattern, and "touches" Tel'aran'rhiod.  But given the odd geometries of 'finn-land in general, the weaves would probably have to be adjusted, perhaps drastically so.  We don't know for sure.

 

If a person is both taveren and a channeler and if that person does a gateway, would both locations be affected?

 

No clue.  If I had to guess, I would say no, unless they passed through the gateway, but since we don't know exactly how the ta'veren twisting of chance affects the 'finns and their world, its impossible to say for sure.

 

Could a taveren affect the lives of people it is well acquainted with regardless of distance?

 

Probably yes, although distance does seem, for some reason, to affect the effects of ta'veren-ness.  Certainly ta'veren can "tug" each other over long distances.  Perrin feels Rand "needing" him from the Two Rivers.

 

When Skimming, can either gateway be destroyed when people/creatures/objects are inside?

 

Sure, by slashing the weaves.  Although the entry gate is normally closed as part of the procedure, once everyone is inside, and the exit gate isn't opened until the end of the process.  Its not as if both gates are open the whole time they are Skimming.

 

If so, what would happen to the people/creatures/objects?

 

They would be standing on the platform in the darkness.  Since the channeler who brought them there has to be with them, he or she could simply open another gateway to a different exit point.

 

[Majsju]

Door-like terangreal; if they are balefired when someone is inside, what would happen to the people inside?

Either the people would be held by the finns like Moiraine and Lanfear, or they would be allowed to leave throught the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

Would channelers be able to do a gateway to and/or from those places?

Most likely not.

 

If a person is both taveren and a channeler and if that person does a gateway, would both locations be affected?

Possibly, can not see any reason why not.

 

Could a taveren affect the lives of people it is well acquainted with regardless of distance?

No.

 

When Skimming, can either gateway be destroyed when people/creatures/objects are inside?  If so, what would happen to the people/creatures/objects?

Uhm, what?

When skimming, the doorway you enter through usually closes once you take off. I suppose it can be kept open, but I really can not see a reason why anyone would want to do that.

The exit doorway does not open until you arrive at that destination. If the first one is "destroyed", just make a new one.

 

[Luckers]

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Could a taveren affect the lives of people it is well acquainted with regardless of distance?

 

Probably yes, although distance does seem, for some reason, to affect the effects of ta'veren-ness.  Certainly ta'veren can "tug" each other over long distances.  Perrin feels Rand "needing" him from the Two Rivers.

 

I'm more inclined to agree with Maj on this and say no. We've never seen anything to suggest ta'veren can affect people accross distance--other than other ta'veren of course, and given the ta'veren telepathy we know there is a seperate and distinct connection in place between ta'veren anyway.

[ROB_88]

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Could a taveren affect the lives of people it is well acquainted with regardless of distance?

 

Probably yes, although distance does seem, for some reason, to affect the effects of ta'veren-ness.  Certainly ta'veren can "tug" each other over long distances.  Perrin feels Rand "needing" him from the Two Rivers.

 

I'm more inclined to agree with Maj on this and say no. We've never seen anything to suggest ta'veren can affect people accross distance--other than other ta'veren of course, and given the ta'veren telepathy we know there is a seperate and distinct connection in place between ta'veren anyway.

 

i think that the connection you're talking about is special for this group. if in another age, there are a couple ta'veren at the same time there will not be the same kind of effect on one another if they are seperate.

[Luckers]

As far as we know ta'veren have never co-existed before--but beyond that how do you know? From the very beginning we see their co-ta'verenism binds them.

 

There is no other reason for them to pull on each other, and given Rand is the strongest, and that he is the one that pulls on the others, we know it is directly their ta'verenism that forms this link.

[ROB_88]

as you said, as far as we know, there has never been any ta'veren co-existing, but lets just for arguments sake say that it's possible, that some live at the same time in another age.

 

yes, we see the ta'veren-ism pull on eachother from the start but these are ta'verens "created" at the same time, same place and for the same purpose. to get the world ready for the Last Battle.

 

what if there is one ta'veren in Shienar meant to sway the the battle against the Blight, while there is another in Seanchan meant to rule the Empire, and another in Shara for some other reason.

if that would happen, i doubt they would feel eachother like Perrin, Mat and Rand do

 

this is off course strictly hypothetical for now

[Luckers]

You seem to misunderstand the nature of ta'veren. The Wheel, with its fuzzy logic, does not go 'i need these people to be important'. or 'i need these people to fight the shadow'. Ta'veren exist as a self-correcting machinism, the exist to create slack in the pattern so that the Wheel can adjust itself when it starts to veer off path.

 

The three were not created for the same purpose, they were merely made ta'veren because the flow of their threads put them in positions were the Wheel needed to redirect the flow of the pattern. Their connection is not intentional.

 

The fact is that the only time concurrent ta'veren have occurred in recorded history is this incident, and they are drawn to each other--more than just drawn to each other, the weaker are drawn to the stronger. This did not occur because of their personal relationships of similarity of purpose--were that the case each would be equally be drawn to the other. Instead the two weaker are unilaterally drawn to the stronger. The point being that it is functional, occuring due to the nature of the ta'verenism, not situational, as in due to their exposure to each other.

 

As such it seems likely the effect would occur with any two ta'veren.