Various Issues

[RobertAlexWillis]

We've never seen anything to suggest ta'veren can affect people accross distance--other than other ta'veren of course, and given the ta'veren telepathy we know there is a seperate and distinct connection in place between ta'veren anyway.

 

I'm not so sure.  Rand, Perrin, and Mat managed to get an awful lot of people to Tear at the right place and the right time, from some pretyy large distances.  That little confluence always seemed very ta'veren-y to me.  I mean, Faile just happened to run away at the right time to meet Perrin?  The girls investigations in the Tower timed out perfectly to get them to Tear on time?

 

No, its certainly not conclusive, but it seems more than possible that people can be very subtly yanked from just about anywhere in the world.  The obvious "super-wedding day" type of effects seem to be limited by distance, but I don't think those are the only effects of ta'veren, or at least, ta'veren on the scale of Rand, Mat, and Perrin.

[mb]

At the Cleansing, what was that material Graendal was wearing?

 

If a warder is a channeler, would the one that holds its bond be able to feel if it gets severed (or burned out)?

Before the Cleansing, would being a warder slow down the increase of madness?

 

The wards Rand ordered to be put on the Waygates, they apply to when the Shadowspawn come out.  Do they also apply when the Shadowspawn go in?

 

[Majsju]

At the Cleansing, what was that material Graendal was wearing?

Read KOD, and you will find out.

 

If a warder is a channeler, would the one that holds its bond be able to feel if it gets severed (or burned out)?

 

Yes, since it is quote a shock to the body.

 

Before the Cleansing, would being a warder slow down the increase of madness?

Possibly

 

The wards Rand ordered to be put on the Waygates, they apply to when the Shadowspawn come out.  Do they also apply when the Shadowspawn go in?

Yup

 

[Nightstrike]

At the Cleansing, what was that material Graendal was wearing?

Wasn't it streith? The fabric that changes color due to the mood of the wearer?

 

If a warder is a channeler, would the one that holds its bond be able to feel if it gets severed (or burned out)?

I think they would feel something happening. But I'm not sure whether they would know exactly what, at least not if they hadn't experienced it before.

 

Before the Cleansing, would being a warder slow down the increase of madness?

I really don't think that it would.

 

The wards Rand ordered to be put on the Waygates, they apply to when the Shadowspawn come out.  Do they also apply when the Shadowspawn go in?

I think that would depend on how Rand wove the ward. I think he could have done it whichever way he wanted.

 

 

[ROB_88]

i've been wondering, in TSR when they get to Rhuidean, why do the women get naked before they move on but the men do not?

that shouldn't be any different for them

[Luckers]

I'm not so sure.  Rand, Perrin, and Mat managed to get an awful lot of people to Tear at the right place and the right time, from some pretyy large distances.  That little confluence always seemed very ta'veren-y to me.  I mean, Faile just happened to run away at the right time to meet Perrin?  The girls investigations in the Tower timed out perfectly to get them to Tear on time?

 

Faile was a fated meeting--you might as easly say any of Min's viewings must therefore be ta'veren work. Her viewings always come true, and its to some other force than ta'verenism.

 

And if you'll recall the girls investigation timed out perfectly because Mesaana, Be'lal and Lanfear saw to it that it did. That was the trap--they captured the girls to use them as bait for Rand.

 

No, its certainly not conclusive, but it seems more than possible that people can be very subtly yanked from just about anywhere in the world.  The obvious "super-wedding day" type of effects seem to be limited by distance, but I don't think those are the only effects of ta'veren, or at least, ta'veren on the scale of Rand, Mat, and Perrin.

 

There is a difference between the push of fate and the push of ta'verenism. Or, well no, there isn't. Ta'verenism simply heightens it. That's its purpose. Ta'veren create a looseness in the pattern enabling less likely events (but events that more fit the overall flow of the pattern) to occur. That push by the pattern is always there, it is only stronger when ta'veren are in play.

 

Ta'veren are enablers, not the direct source themselves. Like angreal for the wheel, if you will. Without them the push is still there, just weaker in its effect. We've see this push of the wheel active without ta'veren involved--and quite strongly. Some things are in fact so pushed that its impossible to stop them, like Min's viewings.

 

At the Cleansing, what was that material Graendal was wearing?

 

It's called streith. It was made during the Age of Legends--we see Solinda in a streith gown during the Aiel Flashback. She found it in a stasisbox.

 

Before the Cleansing, would being a warder slow down the increase of madness?

 

I don't see why it would. Nothing in the warder bond increases mental stability. That's why the Aes Sedai search for men with such traits already in play.

 

i've been wondering, in TSR when they get to Rhuidean, why do the women get naked before they move on but the men do not?

that shouldn't be any different for them

 

Because both women were using a different ter'angreal--the rings that show the future. We don't know whether the women wear clothes when going through the collumns--id assume so.

 

The rings seem to bear a similarity to the accepted test rings, and Aes Sedai require nudity there too (even though they gave up on the ceremonial nudity of becoming Aes Sedai long ago). Perhaps it is nessasary.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ta'veren create a looseness in the pattern enabling less likely events (but events that more fit the overall flow of the pattern) to occur.

 

I'm sorry, but that completely fails to account for experiences like Min, Elayne, and Egwene being almost physically drawn to Rand in Falme.  Saying that the Faile meeting was "fated" is fine, but what was the mechanism of that fate?  You're claiming some unknown mechanism of the Wheel, and calling it "fate" ... why can't ta'veren be the mechanism of fate?  Ta'veren effects seem to tighten the Pattern in places as much as loosen it ... Falme and Tear especially went down like tightly scripted events, and Rand, at least, seems to feel like ta'veren-ness forces his hand as often as it enables him.  I know that Rand's opinions don't constitute proof, but then again, there's no reason to dismiss them without counter-indications.

 

you might as easly say any of Min's viewings must therefore be ta'veren work. Her viewings always come true, and its to some other force than ta'verenism.

 

I dont see why there can be one and only one "force" of "fate" behind the results of Min's viewings.  Min seems to, in some way, "read" the future.  The forces that cause the events that were viewed could be different from event to event.  Some caused by ta'veren, some caused by regular chance, some caused by the normal forces of cause and effect.  Using the word "cause" here is a little problematic, because we usually anthropormophize "causes", and ta'veren-ness is certainly not a personal or conscious force, but then, neither is chance.

 

And if you'll recall the girls investigation timed out perfectly because Mesaana, Be'lal and Lanfear saw to it that it did. That was the trap--they captured the girls to use them as bait for Rand.

 

You don't think that ta'veren influences can affect people's motivations?  In truth, they didn't really need a trap, Rand was coming for Callandor anyway.  So, why would they choose that particular trap?  And why would Elayne just "happen" to get caught in it as well, which just "happened" to involve Gaebril/Rahvin, which just "happened" to provide the clue that Mat needed to join the party, which he just "happened" to overhear in Caemlyn?  Thats an intricate string of unlikely events, that was not all planned by Mesaana/Lanfear/Be'lal, and only some of which happened in close vicinity to a ta'veren. 

 

I don't know ... maybe ta'veren does have only a local effect, and thats why the Pattern "needed" three ta'veren, to spread the effect out.  There are just some really long odds involved with events that have happened a long way away from any of the individual ta'veren.  "Fate" is well and good, but what is the mechanism of "fate"?  If it isn't an immanent "Hand of the Creator" (which strikes me as both unlikely and inelegant, and I'm confident that you would agree there) then we don't have such a mechanism, other than ta'veren.

[Luckers]

I'm sorry, but that completely fails to account for experiences like Min, Elayne, and Egwene being almost physically drawn to Rand in Falme. 

 

Falme was a unique situation--the horn of Valere was sounded, which seemingly blurs the barriers between the waking world and TAR, meaning the reality was already softer, more maleable. Add to that three ta'veren further softening the fabric of reality, and yes it completely accounts for Falme, not just the girls feeling drawn to him, but the fact that his and Ishamael's fight affecting the fight between the Heroes and the Seanchan.

 

Saying that the Faile meeting was "fated" is fine, but what was the mechanism of that fate?  You're claiming some unknown mechanism of the Wheel, and calling it "fate" ...

 

I'm not claiming some unknown machenism--its directly stated by the finns that the Wheel has a direct and specific push when they are speaking to Mat. Here, I'll quote it.

 

“Burn your soul for a craven heart,” Mat growled, “I will that! Why will I die if I do not go to

Rhuidean? I very likely will die if I try. It makes no - ”

 

The man cut him off and spoke hurriedly. “You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled. Now, go. You must go! Quickly!”

 

why can't ta'veren be the mechanism of fate?

 

Ta'veren are A machenism of fate, not THE machenism of fate. We know this as a fact--many fated things have no relation to ta'veren.

 

Ta'veren effects seem to tighten the Pattern in places as much as loosen it ... Falme and Tear especially went down like tightly scripted events, and Rand, at least, seems to feel like ta'veren-ness forces his hand as often as it enables him.  I know that Rand's opinions don't constitute proof, but then again, there's no reason to dismiss them without counter-indications

 

Well, once again, Tear WAS a tightly scripted event. Faile messed that script up but being the one to be trapped, thus allowing Moiraine to kill Be'lal, but over all it was tightly scripted, the script writers being Lanfear, Mesaana and Be'lal.

 

And Falme was a unique situation--due to the super-duper fuzziness of the pattern between the sounding of the horn and the presence of three ta'veren the push of the pattern became like a river in flood.

 

And I don't disagree that ta'verenism results in the ta'veren being pushed. Ta'veren don't exist to smooth the path of the ta'veren--yes, it often results in them having greater influence, but that is a side effect. Ta'veren exist to create slack in the pattern thus allowing the Pattern to push its own agenda. That's just as likely to push the ta'veren as it is others--but whether it is pushing the ta'veren or pushing others, it is doing so within the limits of their ta'maral'ailen.

 

It bottles down to this. This is not dues ex machina. Ta'veren have a limited, specific effect. All random events do not result immediately from them.

 

I dont see why there can be one and only one "force" of "fate" behind the results of Min's viewings.  Min seems to, in some way, "read" the future.  The forces that cause the events that were viewed could be different from event to event.  Some caused by ta'veren, some caused by regular chance, some caused by the normal forces of cause and effect.  Using the word "cause" here is a little problematic, because we usually anthropormophize "causes", and ta'veren-ness is certainly not a personal or conscious force, but then, neither is chance.

 

Again, you seem to misunderstand ta'veren. Ta'veren 'cause' nothing. Ta'veren ENABLE things to occur. The push for them comes from the flow of the pattern, ta'veren simply set up the circumstances in which it might be possible for them to occur.

 

Ta'verenism is chaos. Good, evil, neither one matter. Ta'verenism only serves to highten things. The push, the direction, comes from something else--the flow of the pattern. RJ even describes it as a self-correcting machenism. It is not a force in itself, its something the Wheel does in order to allow it to achieve its goals. It is a tool, nothing more.

 

You don't think that ta'veren influences can affect people's motivations? 

 

Of course ta'veren can influence peoples motivations. Within the limits of their ta'maral'ailen. The girls were not within that influence.

 

In truth, they didn't really need a trap, Rand was coming for Callandor anyway.  So, why would they choose that particular trap?

 

I agree, they didn't need too... but remember they didn't actually choose that particular trap--they used many different lures. Be'lal himself expresses surprised that that was the one to work--here.

 

"“You put them in a cage,” he said. “Egwene, and Nynaeve, and Elayne. In my dreams. You kept putting them in a cage, and hurting them.”

 

The man made a dismissive gesture of his hand. “They are less than nothing. Perhaps one day, when

they have been trained, but not now. I confess surprise that you cared enough to make them useful.""

 

And why would Elayne just "happen" to get caught in it as well, which just "happened" to involve Gaebril/Rahvin, which just "happened" to provide the clue that Mat needed to join the party, which he just "happened" to overhear in Caemlyn?  Thats an intricate string of unlikely events, that was not all planned by Mesaana/Lanfear/Be'lal, and only some of which happened in close vicinity to a ta'veren.

 

Why? Fate. Destiny. Whatever. What it is not is ta'verenism. The effects of the ta'marl'ailen are limited by distance.

 

I'll say it again. Ta'verenism is not dues ex machina. It does not explain all random events.

 

And in truth, none of what you've listed is unlikely. Elayne is Egwene and Nynaeve's friend, and buddingly in love with Rand. Of course she'd become involved. Rhavin was using Elayne to create discord between Andor and the Tower so of course he'd be watching her. And he states his own reasoning for wanting to kill her. Mat overhearing WAS fortunate--and very probably the result of him being ta'veren.

 

Those events are not unlikely, with the exception of Mat, in which i agree, ta'verenism probably did play its part. The rest of them are sequential--events resulting from direct and reasonable causes.

 

Ta'veren plays its part in things, but it is not the cause for everything. This is not God Machine.

 

I don't know ... maybe ta'veren does have only a local effect, and thats why the Pattern "needed" three ta'veren, to spread the effect out.  There are just some really long odds involved with events that have happened a long way away from any of the individual ta'veren.  "Fate" is well and good, but what is the mechanism of "fate"?  If it isn't an immanent "Hand of the Creator" (which strikes me as both unlikely and inelegant, and I'm confident that you would agree there) then we don't have such a mechanism, other than ta'veren.

 

But we do have that machenism. RJ stated that the wheel has a 'fuzzy' logic. It's not intelligent, but it is instinctually reactive. It has a guideline to which it is striving--and it pushes the flow of the pattern to achieve that. When the pattern is going to far off that course it spits out a ta'veren, which loosens the rules of reality, and creates the slack it needs to cause the events that will bring it back on course.

 

It's like a computer. Computers react in specific prescribed ways to stimuli. It's not reasoning, not being specific, but there is a general push behind it that guides the flow of the pattern.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ta'veren are A machenism of fate, not THE machenism of fate. We know this as a fact--many fated things have no relation to ta'veren.

 

That's certainly true ... and I was pretty sure you would jump on it as soon as I posted it ...  ;D

 

Well, once again, Tear WAS a tightly scripted event. Faile messed that script up but being the one to be trapped, thus allowing Moiraine to kill Be'lal, but over all it was tightly scripted, the script writers being Lanfear, Mesaana and Be'lal.

 

Um ... Lanfear, Mesaana, and Be'lal's script involved a much smaller cast of characters, and their script failed utterly.  The inclusion of Perrin, Faile, and most especially, Mat, suggests a much different script (the Wheel's).  But how was that script brought about?  Yes, the Wheel has a "fuzzy logic" that allow it to make "decisions", but what is the actual mechanism of its "push"?  Describing the existence of a "push" does not describe its mechanism, that is, specifically how the "push" is implemented.  Ta'veren effects become less obvious over distance, but altering the chance of a person making one particular decision a thousand miles away is just the type of "interference" that can lead to the type of "coincidences" described.

 

The push for them comes from the flow of the pattern, ta'veren simply set up the circumstances in which it might be possible for them to occur.

 

Again, what is the actual mechanism of that "push"?

 

Why? Fate. Destiny. Whatever.

 

Ta'veren can be a mechanism of Fate.  Do you have another to name, here?

 

And in truth, none of what you've listed is unlikely. Elayne is Egwene and Nynaeve's friend, and buddingly in love with Rand. Of course she'd become involved. Rhavin was using Elayne to create discord between Andor and the Tower so of course he'd be watching her. And he states his own reasoning for wanting to kill her. Mat overhearing WAS fortunate--and very probably the result of him being ta'veren.

 

Sorry, but I see a VERY unlikely string of events there, stretching all the way back to TEOTW.  Why is Elayne "buddingly in love with Rand"?  A royal princess literally has a "love at first sight" experience with a dude who fell into her garden?  How is that likely?

 

Once the events were set in motion, then yes, everything that happened made sense.  But the beginning to each part of those strings is incredibly unlikely... but the actual result was very orderly.

 

Ta'veren plays its part in things, but it is not the cause for everything. This is not God Machine.

 

I'm certainly not claiming that ta'veren is Deus Ex Machina.  The only thing that I am saying is that a "strong" enough ta'veren influence could have a small but important influence over a large distance.  The effects would not be obvious, like they are in closer proximity.  But drawing in threads that the Pattern's "fuzzy logic" considers "important" is not unreasonable, in my opinion.

 

Ta'verenism is chaos

 

Actually, ta'veren seems to be the exact opposite of chaos.  It aligns events in ways that are normally unlikely due to the existence of chaos, or chance.  Ta'veren removes chance from the equation.  Everyone in a village gets married.  Unlikely, but not chaotic.  Coins land on the same side a thousand times in a row.  Unlikely, but not chaotic.  A bunch of Aes Sedai all agree simultaneously and almost without thought, to swear fealty to Rand al'Thor.  Very unlikely, but not chaotic.  Ta'veren seems to EXCLUDE the effects of chaos from an area, which makes it the perfect repair mechanism for the Wheel of Time, which is actually the embodiment of Order.  (Time itself is the force that allows the phenomenological world to BE a phenomenological world)

 

But we do have that machenism. RJ stated that the wheel has a 'fuzzy' logic

 

Again, "fuzzy logic" is a mechanism for reaching "decisions", maybe choosing how to "implement" them, but it is not an "enforcement" mechanism in and of itself.  And yes, those words are in quotes because they are not exactly right, but words that are precisely correct don't exist here, because we don't actually have anything like the Wheel's "fuzzy logic".  Thats why it is called fuzzy.

[Nightstrike]

But we do have that machenism. RJ stated that the wheel has a 'fuzzy' logic

 

Again, "fuzzy logic" is a mechanism for reaching "decisions", maybe choosing how to "implement" them, but it is not an "enforcement" mechanism in and of itself.  And yes, those words are in quotes because they are not exactly right, but words that are precisely correct don't exist here, because we don't actually have anything like the Wheel's "fuzzy logic".  Thats why it is called fuzzy.

"Fuzzy logic", did RJ say that? I know he said that the Wheel makes decisions due to it being the most advanced computer you can imagine. That doesn't sound fuzzy at all. The decisions that the Wheel makes must be of staggering complexity. The Wheel must be making decisions that are far, far more logical than any human ever could achieve.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

"Fuzzy logic", did RJ say that?

 

Yes, in the interview included with the release of "Glimmers", the prologue to Crossroads of Twilight

 

Q: Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

 

RJ: You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Q%26A_From_Glimmers_Prologue

 

Please note the the Wheel can "use them [ta'veren] as an influence on the Pattern."  Judging by the results, the powerfulness (and nature) of the effects ebbs and flows as needed.  For example, there was highly strict, immediate, and obvious control at Falme (and simultaneously, thousands of miles away with the other False Dragons).  Some times the effects appear very dramatic or significant (Aes Sedai swearing at Dumai's Wells) and others, they appear less so (everyone in a village getting married, coins landing on the same side over and over, etc).  The local effects are more obvious, but the boys became ta'veren just before Moiraine came to the Two Rivers.  That timing is not insignificant, at least to me.

 

What Jordan seems to describe there is more than random "looseness" that gives an individual room to act.  The effect of ta'veren seems to be described here as the what the is "doing" in response to the "feedback" that it gets from the Pattern.  "Feedback" comes in as input, in the form of what is actually going on in the Pattern.  The Pattern's "fuzzy logic" interprets that "feedback" and then alters circumstances.  Only two methods are described: the Heroes and ta'veren.  Rand is both, which accounts at least in part for his powerful influence.  The two were combined at Falme, which accounts again for the obvious and dramatic effects.  But the subtle, tiny nudges thousands of miles apart and widely separated in time (like Faile leaving Saldaea at almost exactly the time that Jordan cites as the time that the boys became ta'veren ... ) are, in my opinion, no less a result of ta'veren; they are simply less obvious.  The result is an increase in Order; people who need to be brought together are brought together (Moiraine coming to the Two Rivers, Faile meeting Perrin, and a host of other otherwise unlikely meetings), people who need to work together are forced together (the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells were bound to Rand).

 

I know he said that the Wheel makes decisions due to it being the most advanced computer you can imagine. That doesn't sound fuzzy at all. The decisions that the Wheel makes must be of staggering complexity. The Wheel must be making decisions that are far, far more logical than any human ever could achieve.

 

"Fuzzy logic" doesn't mean imprecise logic, at least not in this usage (there is more than one  ;) ).  It is a term used because computer engineers have not quantified the mathematics of actual intelligence.  So, the word "fuzzy" is used because we can't describe it precisely.  The results can be very precise indeed.

 

Edited to clarify (hopefully) an unclear thought.

[Jethro]

I like your explanation of Ta'veren-ness and the Pattern RAW.

 

Is anyone else willing to entertain the idea of Rand having his particularly rare type of madness due to Ta'veren? It is said that something that might have a one in a million chance of happening could become a certainty with a Ta'veren, and by now I think it is a safe assumption to make that Rand needed those memories in order to start killing Chosen, and the voice has helped him with the Power when he needed help several times. Just a thought.

[Luckers]

Um ... Lanfear, Mesaana, and Be'lal's script involved a much smaller cast of characters, and their script failed utterly.  The inclusion of Perrin, Faile, and most especially, Mat, suggests a much different script (the Wheel's).  But how was that script brought about?  Yes, the Wheel has a "fuzzy logic" that allow it to make "decisions", but what is the actual mechanism of its "push"?  Describing the existence of a "push" does not describe its mechanism, that is, specifically how the "push" is implemented.  Ta'veren effects become less obvious over distance, but altering the chance of a person making one particular decision a thousand miles away is just the type of "interference" that can lead to the type of "coincidences" described.

 

I'm not sure what your asking for--yes, their plan went wrong. But you'd raised Tear as being a point where 'coincidences' were extra huge. The fact is they weren't. There were people who were specifically organising just for that event. Lanfear, Be'lal and Mesaana did not plan for Mat and Perrin and the rest, its true, but their plans did cause for them to be there. By luring Rand and Elayne they brought Perrin and Mat who followed after.

 

You ask what is the actual machenism of the wheel--i dont understand that. The Wheel itself is the machenism--it is the driving machenism. Ta'verenism is a tool of that machenism. A device it uses when it's push is going off path.

 

I really, really don't understand what you are asking for. Are you looking for a character or object in the world that acts as the wheels machenism? Every part of the world is the wheels machenism, is its thread.

 

I mean nothing in Tear is particularily outragous in its flow. The three Forsaken lured Rand and the Wonder Girls, and Moiraine and the other followed Rand--which is logical. And Mat followed the girls, which again make sense. The only true reaches were Mat overhearin Gaebril, which i agree may well have been the result of Ta'verenism. And Faile running ahead--which appears to very genuinely be good fortune. It happens.

 

Quote

The push for them comes from the flow of the pattern, ta'veren simply set up the circumstances in which it might be possible for them to occur.

 

Again, what is the actual mechanism of that "push"?

 

The Wheel. That's all. The Wheel itself is the drive--it influences all things because all things are threads in its weaving. It's control is not absolute, but it is there. This is soft determinism to the max.

 

You are looking for God, an seperate distinct element that directly influence events... but there is none, the wheel is everything, and it is that everything that is the machenism you are looking for. No distinct cause, everything. Pantheism.

 

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Why? Fate. Destiny. Whatever.

 

Ta'veren can be a mechanism of Fate.  Do you have another to name, here?

 

Another to name? No--Ta'verenism is a tool the wheel uses, the Wheel itself is the drive. In that question your asking me to compare the garderner to the hoe. There is no other tool to name. Not even with Ta'verenism. Ta'verenism is not a distinct issue compared to this. It allows for the EFFECTS of the push of the wheel to be heightened, but it is still the push of the wheel that is causing things.

 

By the way, didn't i state why i thought it couldn't be ta'verenism in my initial post? you could have responded to that--rather than, you know, using the 'well if you dont know, then my answer must be right' method.

 

Sorry, but I see a VERY unlikely string of events there, stretching all the way back to TEOTW.  Why is Elayne "buddingly in love with Rand"?  A royal princess literally has a "love at first sight" experience with a dude who fell into her garden?  How is that likely?

 

Once the events were set in motion, then yes, everything that happened made sense.  But the beginning to each part of those strings is incredibly unlikely... but the actual result was very orderly.

 

Yes, because a love at first sight with a commoner is a completely new and innovative plot point. Have you seen Aladin?

 

I can't really respond to your comments--your finding significance in things i dont really reguard as all that dramatic. A difference in viewpoints i suppose. That being said, were your version correct, i still don't understand your 'it must be ta'veren' mentality. The Wheel is what drives things, even with ta'veren. The wheel is the answer to your issues.

 

I'm certainly not claiming that ta'veren is Deus Ex Machina.  The only thing that I am saying is that a "strong" enough ta'veren influence could have a small but important influence over a large distance.  The effects would not be obvious, like they are in closer proximity.  But drawing in threads that the Pattern's "fuzzy logic" considers "important" is not unreasonable, in my opinion.

 

Dude, thats exactly what you are saying... a ta'veren can effect a small event over distance, like what? Faile getting fed up with her father and going to Illian? Faile deciding to go to manetheren and this being in Ghealdin in time to meet Perrin? That's pretty God-in-the-machine to me.

 

Ta'veren are a tool that allows the pattern to increase its influence in specific areas. Not create its influence, increase it. That influence exists elsewhere. Presupposing that the Pattern needed this extra influence is utterly unsustained by the books.

 

Actually, ta'veren seems to be the exact opposite of chaos.  It aligns events in ways that are normally unlikely due to the existence of chaos, or chance.  Ta'veren removes chance from the equation.  Everyone in a village gets married.  Unlikely, but not chaotic.  Coins land on the same side a thousand times in a row.  Unlikely, but not chaotic.  A bunch of Aes Sedai all agree simultaneously and almost without thought, to swear fealty to Rand al'Thor.  Very unlikely, but not chaotic.  Ta'veren seems to EXCLUDE the effects of chaos from an area, which makes it the perfect repair mechanism for the Wheel of Time, which is actually the embodiment of Order.  (Time itself is the force that allows the phenomenological world to BE a phenomenological world)

 

Chaos is the unpredictable occuring in great number. An entire village marrying, thats chaos. Coins all landing in the same way, chaos. Aes Sedai swearing fealty to a man. Chaos. Just ask any other Aes Sedai. Anything wherein the normal rules of reality are suspended is chaos.

 

You seem to think chaos requires some detriment. It is not, it is simply a lack of the normal order applying. That is what Chaos is. Ta'verenism is chaos, both good and bad occuring with no preference to a greater degree, outside the normal order of things.

 

Ta'verenism is chaos. Thats why its a perfect self-correction machenism. It creates the fluidity that enables the push of the Wheel to have greater effect.

 

Again, "fuzzy logic" is a mechanism for reaching "decisions", maybe choosing how to "implement" them, but it is not an "enforcement" mechanism in and of itself.  And yes, those words are in quotes because they are not exactly right, but words that are precisely correct don't exist here, because we don't actually have anything like the Wheel's "fuzzy logic".  Thats why it is called fuzzy.

 

The wheel IS everything. It choosing to "implement" a "decision" immediately influences the threads of the pattern because those threads are it. It's like when you decide to have a drink and your hand moves to pick up the glass without you ever conciously causing it--its a part of you. The decision is the machenism.

 

And we do actually have theoretically constructs like this in the real world--soft determinism. Philosophy, and all that.

 

Please note the the Wheel can "use them [ta'veren] as an influence on the Pattern."  Judging by the results, the powerfulness (and nature) of the effects ebbs and flows as needed.  For example, there was highly strict, immediate, and obvious control at Falme (and simultaneously, thousands of miles away with the other False Dragons).  Some times the effects appear very dramatic or significant (Aes Sedai swearing at Dumai's Wells) and others, they appear less so (everyone in a village getting married, coins landing on the same side over and over, etc).  The local effects are more obvious, but the boys became ta'veren just before Moiraine came to the Two Rivers.  That timing is not insignificant, at least to me.

 

I would point out again that more than the ta'verenism was involved at Falme--the sounding of the horn directly enhanced the effects of the moment. This is the only incident in which the effects are widespread.

 

As for your comment, RJ stated that he was going to write a side-novel like New Spring that directly addressed how Moiraine came to arrive in the Two Rivers just in time. Which infers directlt that something very specific was in play. Your ta'veren fatalism likely would not fulfil such a novel.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, we apparently disagree on the essential nature of Chaos and Order, so this isn't likely to be resolved.  Surprisingly, I'm OK with that ...

[Luckers]

And on the issue of the wheel being the machenism?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Lol ... we're using the word mechanism differently too.  I see the Wheel as the "processor", but it needs something else to create "output" to put it in terms of the computer metaphor.  You say the "The wheel IS everything", and I simply don't see it that way.  The Wheel weaves the Pattern, but a weaving machine has appendages that manipulate the individual threads that are separate from the spinning mechanism itself.  I view ta'veren as one of those mechanisms, and link it to the specific events seen here.

 

Ta'veren doesn't control everything, but the events we see in the books are not "everything", they are only the significant events.  To return to RJ's quote, "Even when [ta'veren] is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally."  The events that we see are all significant, so, claiming that ta'veren influenced most of them can SEEM like I'm claiming "Ta'veren controls everything".  But I'm not.  I'm just saying that we don't get a list of the trillions of other events, because they aren't significant.  I would contend that ta'veren influence is much, much, much more highly prevalent in the story we see, because we are seeing, in large measure, the lives of three extraordinarily powerful ta'veren.

 

My view of ta'veren in this highly functional way is a direct outgrowth of my perception of ta'veren as an Order-producing mechanism, and so this conflict is also rooted in the different ways we see ta'veren, either as a creator of Chaos, or a producer of Order.  You see a whole village getting married and say, "thats chaos".  I see it as unlikely, but very orderly.  So, I personally think you are confusing probability with chaos.

 

Given your assumptions, I certainly see how you reached your conclusions.  We just have different assumptions, so logic-chopping isn't going to resolve anything.  That usually ends up being the result of our disagreements; which is why I'm satisfied without trying to bang out a resolution.

[Nightstrike]

The Guide:

For each Age, there is a separate and unique pattern, the Pattern of the Age, which forms the substance of reality for that age. This design is predetermined by the Wheel and can only partially be changed by those lieves which make up the threads within the weave.

 

The Guide:

In such a world change is simply a predetermined part of the mechanism. Only a few individuals, special souls known as ta'veren, can cause the fabric of the pattern to bend around them, changing the weave. These ta'veren are spun out as key threads around which all surrounding life-threads, perhaps in some cases all life-threads, weave to create change. These key threads often produce major variations in the Pattern of an Age. Such major changes are called, in the old tongue, ta'aral'ailen, or the "Web of Destiny".

 

The Guide:

Even the ta'veren and the Web of Destiny woven around them are bound by the Wheel and the Great Pattern; it is believed that the Wheel spins out ta'veren whenever the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern. The changes around them, while often drastic and unsettling for those who must live in the Age, are thought to be part of the Wheel's own correcting mechanism. The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance the more ta'veren are spun out into the world.

 

The Guide:

The Great Wheel is the very heart of all time. But even the Wheel requires engergy to maintain itself and its pattern. This energy comes from the True Source, from chich the One Power may be drawn. Both the True Source and the One Power are made up of two conflicting yet complemetary parts; saidin, the male half, and saidar, the female half. Working both together and against one another within the the True Source, it is saidin and saidar which provide the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time.

 

The Guide:

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it -as well as the plan for the Great Pattern - and the Dar One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Grat Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

The Guide:

What is the Wheel of Time? Imagine a great cosmic loom in the shape of a seven-spoked wheel, slowly spinning through eternity, weaving the fabric of the universe. The Wheel, put in place by the Creator, is time itself, ever turning and returning. The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lieves and events. interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality, past, present and future.

 

The Guide:

Within the influence of this Lace of Ages are not only the earth and stone of the physical world, but other worlds and universes, other dimensions, other possibilities. The Wheel touches what might be, what might have been, and what is. It touches the world of dreams as well as the world of waking.

 

[Charlz Fel]

A note on the comparative notions of "chaos" used here.

 

RAW seems to think of chaos as equivalent to entropy.  Entropy is more or less "even distribution."  If you have two boxes, one containing fifty balls and the other containing zero balls, the amount of entropy present is much less than if each box contains twenty-five balls.  The third law of thermodynamics states that, globally, entropy is always increasing.  Thus, for instance, if two objects next to each other are different temperatures, heat will tend to move from the hot object to the cold object, and not vice versa.  I think it is reasonably clear that ta'veren effects tend to "suspend" the third law; for instance, when someone drops a basket of ceiling tiles, the third law predicts that they ought to land in a disorderly arrangement, but instead they may possibly land in a very orderly arrangement--e.g., the ancient Aes Sedai symbol.

 

It is a classic argument that work (including thought, action, etc.) can only be accomplished as long as it is possible to increase entropy.  Once entropy reaches some sort of maximum (if this is possible), everything is distributed evenly throughout the universe, and it is no longer possible for anything interesting to happen.  Thus, it would make sense that any system like the Wheel that is supposed to go on forever would have to be able to reverse entropy.

 

Luckers' idea of chaos, "unpredictability", is more similar to the mathematical notion of chaos in dynamical systems.  However, the similarity is not sufficient for me to launch into an explanation.  If you're interested, look up "butterfly effect" on Wikipedia.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Most of those Guide quotes are very relevant, but it should be kept in mind that the "author" of the Guide is an in-world character/scholar who is not omniscient.

 

That said, a phrase like this: "These ta'veren are spun out as key threads around which all surrounding life-threads, perhaps in some cases all life-threads, weave to create change," lead me to believe that more powerful ta'veren effects can indeed reach out to affect all life threads, regardless of distance.  To be fair, though, RJ had his in-world scholar phrase it speculatively, so it is certainly not proof.

 

RAW seems to think of chaos as equivalent to entropy.

 

Pretty close, yes.

 

Entropy is more or less "even distribution."

 

That I would actually disagree with.  "Even distribution" is often the final result of entropy, but entropy itself, or chaos in my Wheel of Time worldview, is the "force" (it is not a force in the classical sense of physics, hence the quotes) that pulls things apart.  Once you get "everything" as far apart from "anything else" as it can be, then completely even distribution would be the result.  The Second Law of Thermodynamics (sorry, just being picky, Charlz) does indeed state that entropy tends to increase within isolated systems (which the universe supposedly is) that are not in equilibrium (which the universe definitely is not).  This is the law of physics that actually explains the irreversible nature of events in existence (something that pisses the Dark One off immensely, and something apparently circumvented by balefire, but something literally inescapable in a world in which order gives shape to chaos, and not the other way around).

[Charlz Fel]

Thanks for correcting the law number--I hate giving out misinformation.

 

I disagree that entropy is a "force."  Entropy is a property--a number that can be calculated from quantitative measurements (in physics and chemistry) or calculated directly (in information theory, where it provides an indicator of how much a piece of information can be condensed--the lower the entropy, the more it can be condensed).  However, I'm not going to defend the "even distribution" idea, since that was intended as a very, very loose interpretation of the quantity that entropy measures.

 

I don't understand what you mean by "a world in which order gives shape to chaos, and not the other way around."  Is this simply a way of stating "a world in which entropy increases over time," i.e., (if order=low entropy and chaos = high entropy) order gives way to chaos as time proceeds?  Somehow I think you mean something deeper than this.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I disagree that entropy is a "force."

 

Well, I did acknowledge that there are problems with the word; unfortunately I'm not sure I can accurately convey with words precisely what I'm envisioning.  When I use "entropy", "chaos", and "force" here, I'm not describing the real world, I'm describing a relatively close analogue with some important differences.  I reluctantly admit that my language is inadequate to my thought process.

 

I don't understand what you mean by "a world in which order gives shape to chaos, and not the other way around."  Is this simply a way of stating "a world in which entropy increases over time," i.e., (if order=low entropy and chaos = high entropy) order gives way to chaos as time proceeds?  Somehow I think you mean something deeper than this.

 

I envision the Pattern as an existence in which Order and Chaos are in conflict in a more ... personal ... way than we conceive them to be in this one.  (There are problems there, too, because I'm certainly not saying that they are conscious in any way that we would call consciousness.)  In the world of the Pattern, the Wheel of Time forces Chaos to "act" within the bounds set by its order, namely, time.  Chaos cannot "act" everywhere all at once, it has to manifest within the framework set up by Time, and so manifests as entropy (or, if it helps to think of it this way, entropy is the result of the manifestation of Chaos).  But entropy is an effect over Time, and so the Wheel can "use" the tools at its disposal, like ta'veren, to counter the cumulative effects of Chaos over Time, thereby forcing Chaos into a "shape" that the Pattern can contain indefinitely, (keeping the Dark One, the paradoxical embodiment of Chaos, imprisoned withing its Ordered structure). 

[Luckers]

Lol ... we're using the word mechanism differently too.  I see the Wheel as the "processor", but it needs something else to create "output" to put it in terms of the computer metaphor.  You say the "The wheel IS everything", and I simply don't see it that way.  The Wheel weaves the Pattern, but a weaving machine has appendages that manipulate the individual threads that are separate from the spinning mechanism itself.  I view ta'veren as one of those mechanisms, and link it to the specific events seen here.

 

I get what your saying--but my issue is there is nothing in the books that suggest a seperate thing is required beyond the 'processor'. No suggestion of the need for a 'Windows for the Wheel'. It has appendages as you say--ta'veren are one, the heroes another. But the originating guiding influence is the wheel itself.

 

What i am trying to say is you are looking for something that is already there. We have the machine, but you are looking for the god. And its neither nessasary--or more importantly even implied.

 

Ta'veren doesn't control everything, but the events we see in the books are not "everything", they are only the significant events.

 

Ta'vernism doesn't control anything--it influences it. And only within a specific range. The control comes from the wheel, ta'verenism merely heightens the effects of that control.

 

To return to RJ's quote, "Even when [ta'veren] is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally."  The events that we see are all significant, so, claiming that ta'veren influenced most of them can SEEM like I'm claiming "Ta'veren controls everything".  But I'm not.  I'm just saying that we don't get a list of the trillions of other events, because they aren't significant.  I would contend that ta'veren influence is much, much, much more highly prevalent in the story we see, because we are seeing, in large measure, the lives of three extraordinarily powerful ta'veren.

 

What? RJ's comment doesn't say that ta'verenism causes those events that occur normally, its saying that events that seem coincidental, even fated, occur outside a ta'verens influence all the time. He's saying just because ta'veren cause surprising events in the particular place in which the ta'veren is does not mean that surprising events don't occur outside it naturally.

 

By the way there is a book out there called the Illusion of Entropy that you might find interesting.

 

Luckers' idea of chaos, "unpredictability", is more similar to the mathematical notion of chaos in dynamical systems.  However, the similarity is not sufficient for me to launch into an explanation.  If you're interested, look up "butterfly effect" on Wikipedia.

 

Or, you know, you could ask me. It is my argument after all.

[Charlz Fel]

 

Luckers' idea of chaos, "unpredictability", is more similar to the mathematical notion of chaos in dynamical systems.  However, the similarity is not sufficient for me to launch into an explanation.  If you're interested, look up "butterfly effect" on Wikipedia.

 

Or, you know, you could ask me. It is my argument after all.

 

I expounded on entropy because it was clear to me that the notion of entropy was the inspiration for RAW's notion of chaos.  The natural extension of this was to compare your view to a different mathematical/scientific notion of chaos.  However, I realized that this might be trying to fit a square peg in a round hole--there is no reason your notion had to come from any mathematical/scientific construct, and I did not want to impose something extraneous on the discussion.  If, in fact, your notion is based on the mathematical notion, feel free to enlighten us.

[RobertAlexWillis]

RJ's comment doesn't say that ta'verenism causes those events that occur normally, its saying that events that seem coincidental, even fated, occur outside a ta'verens influence all the time.

 

Thats not how I read it at all.  My understanding of what he said is that "Even while ta'veren is making things seem like they're going crazy in a city or town, lots of totally normal unimportant things are still going on.  I just don't list them because they're not interesting."

 

But thats a basic level difference that probably grows out of the differences in how we view real reality, too.

 

I get what your saying--but my issue is there is nothing in the books that suggest a seperate thing is required beyond the 'processor'.

 

Sorry, but a processor, by definition, requires a separate output mechanism.  You can't hold your little Intel chip in your hand and play Empire: Total War (yes, that was a random plug).  Thats why I picked that word, because it seems to fit how the Wheel is described, to me, and thats why I think the Wheel is not enough by itself to "influence" events.

 

Ta'vernism doesn't control anything--it influences it.

 

Sufficiently sophisticated "influence" amounts to control.

 

By the way there is a book out there called the Illusion of Entropy that you might find interesting

 

I'll have to check it out.  I would say, though, that I've described some differences between the way I view "Chaos" in the World of the Wheel, and how physics and IT people describe "entropy".

 

As a side note, our conversations provide an absolutely fascinating study for me in language mechanics ... lol ... its amazing how poorly even relatively intelligent people communicate when discussing completely abstract ideas.  Communication through language is completely dependent on a common frame of reference ... -sigh-