Various Issues

[ROB_88]

i know that they never detected Lews Therin before, i don't think the Bond has any mental radars like it does for the body and Lews is after all just in his head

[Mr Ares]

Rand is bonded to 4 people; would they be able to detect Lews Therin?

No.

 

Before the taint, did saidin needed to be fought or not?

Yes.

Before the taint, was detecting saidin different or not?

No.

 

I guess a strong channeler could use Illusion to disguise gender in at least appearance though not in voice, is this correct?

I believe voice changing may be possible, but appearance changing certainly is. However, one should make sure ones Illusion sticks fairly closely to ones own form.

[mb]

My comment about disguising voice, I was not saying that it was impossible but that it would not be through Illusion.  Would this be correct?

[Mr Ares]

My comment about disguising voice, I was not saying that it was impossible but that it would not be through Illusion. Would this be correct?

Yes. I don't think Illusion covers folded light, though.

[mb]

The Encyclopaedia site tells Moghedien compels Elayne and Nynaeve while they are at the inn in Tanchico.  The site tells that Nynaeve breaks the compulsion on her while in Tel'aran'rhiod.  How did Nynaeve break it?  Was Elayne's also broken?

 

A Well allows channeling withing a stedding.  Would it also allow channeling into a stedding?

Could it also affect Mat's medallion and/or a gholam?

Could an angreal or a sa'angreal in combination with a Well allow a channeler to draw more within a stedding?

 

We know Trollocs reproduce and that Myrddraal cannot.  Can any of the other shadowspawn reproduce?

 

[Charlz Fel]

In a Rahvin PoV, we learn that a few rare individuals have sufficient strength of self to resist Compulsion.  So far, the only two we've seen have been Morgase and Nyneave (who was pulling her braid mightily even while under Moghedien's Compulsion), which makes me think "strength of self" probably goes along with a certain stubborn unwillingness to admit one's own mistakes.  Or at least, some special variant of stubbornness to the point of absurdity.

[Majsju]

The Encyclopaedia site tells Moghedien compels Elayne and Nynaeve while they are at the inn in Tanchico.  The site tells that Nynaeve breaks the compulsion on her while in Tel'aran'rhiod.  How did Nynaeve break it?  Was Elayne's also broken?

 

Most likely a combination of Nynaeves strength of will, and Moghedien not using strong enough Compulsion.

 

A Well allows channeling withing a stedding.  Would it also allow channeling into a stedding?

 

Maybe, but I doubt it. To me it seems like the stedding (as well as Far Madding) has a barrier that blocks channeling, since a well can be used on the inside. The well does not remove the barrier, so it should block any channeling trying to pass through it. (If that is the case, it should be equally impossible to channel out from a stedding with a well.)

 

Could it also affect Mat's medallion and/or a gholam?

 

No, the medallion melts flows, it does not effect a channelers ability to access the OP.

 

Could an angreal or a sa'angreal in combination with a Well allow a channeler to draw more within a stedding?

 

As long as the well contains enough Saidin/Saidar, that is what sets the limit. But looking to the ones we have seen, I doubt any well would contain enough to use even a medium strength angreal.

 

We know Trollocs reproduce and that Myrddraal cannot.  Can any of the other shadowspawn reproduce?

 

Probably, since they have managed to stick around for 3000 years...Not the Gholam though, they are a different case.

 

In a Rahvin PoV, we learn that a few rare individuals have sufficient strength of self to resist Compulsion.  So far, the only two we've seen have been Morgase and Nyneave (who was pulling her braid mightily even while under Moghedien's Compulsion), which makes me think "strength of self" probably goes along with a certain stubborn unwillingness to admit one's own mistakes.  Or at least, some special variant of stubbornness to the point of absurdity.

 

Funny thing is, Nynaeves personality before breaking her block seems far more suited to channel Saidin, and since male channelers can not be Compelled while holding Saidin... ;D

[Jethro]

Does anyone else think Fain might end up being able to sense Moridin, via the Rand-Moridin connection? Fain can tell Rand is bonded to someone, he notes at one point he feels like he shares the link with someone. This could be his gollum-like role in TG, to save Rand accidentally from Moridin. Its 100% speculation though.

 

Also, in Winters Heart there is an excerpt of the Dragon Prophecies that mentions something like "winters heart will ride a black horse, and the name of it is Death." Could this mean that the Dark One somehow possesses Moridin, or maybe can see through his eyes? The reason that makes me think that is the capital D. Remember how disgusted RJ was when people asked if Moridin killed Asmodean? ...death took him, but no capital D in that one.

[mb]

We have seen Rand in Telaranrhiod at times; I suspect that it is always in the flesh and that the method of entering is by gateway.  Is this correct?

Did Rand know he was in Telaranrhiod when he was hunting Rahvin?  If so, I would guess the knowledge would have come from his talks with Asmodean.

 

Is being a taveren from the person's birth/conception or can people become taveren during their lifetime?  If during their lifetime, what would cause it?  (I know the Pattern decides.)

If a taveren dies and is afterward resurrected, would the person still be taveren or would the person have stopped being taveren at death?

 

In Rand's raid with Rahvin, Rahvin killed Mat & Aviendha & Asmodean; Rand's balefire on Rahvin brings them back.  From Asmodean's thoughts, he lost his immortality.  How would he have lost it?  I suspect it was a decision made by the Dark One.

 

[Samudor]

It is correct in assuming it was by gateway and in the flesh...since Rand is not a dreamwalker. Rand didn't know what that place was called when he fought Rahvin, but he knew it's nature- but not from Asmodean. He used his previous knowledge when he was fighting to survive while hunting Ishamael in book 3. Most of that battle was in the World of Dreams. He was outclassed there as well- only Callandor saved Rand then.

 

As for being Ta'averen, we know that a person can stop being taveren, which can only mean- I assume that a person can become taveren later than at birth. Also, it is possible for it to carry from life to life- it seems that is so with Lews Therin. I seem to remember the Forsaken musing about Lews Therin's famous "luck-" I think this points to him being taveren. Also, it makes sense given the Dragon's task- whenever he appears, the end of life for everyone is very close, and he would need every edge he can get.

 

Thirdly- to be honest, I think that the Dark One's promise of immortality is a sham to begin with- why would he honor any of his promises once he is free and without a need for assistance? But, I believe that Asmodean was simply musing about the fact he no longer had his immortality- I'm sure he connected it to the fact that Rand severed his link to the Dark One. But honestly, the single greatest flaw of all the people who serve the Shadow, is that they are dumb enough to be seduced by his "promises" of power. They will get what they deserve in the end.

 

 

 

[Majsju]

Noone is ta'veren from birth, people become ta'veren when and if the Wheel needs to. In the case of Rand, Mat and Perrin, this happened shortly before Moiraine came to Emonds Field.

 

It is not something that is "carried" from life to life. However, someone like Rand/LTT is quite likely to be made ta'veren in most, maybe all of his incarnations, considering the central role this specific soul plays.

[ROB_88]

If a taveren dies and is afterward resurrected, would the person still be taveren or would the person have stopped being taveren at death?

 

we see it with Mat, he died, twice actually if you count his heart stopping for a few moments when he gets hanged from the Avendesora, and then he gets killed again by Rahvin.

he is still very much Ta'veren afterwards.

the real question is, is he still tied to the the horn of Valere?

[Jethro]

My guess is yes. Rahvin killed Mat, which severed Mats connection to the Horn, and then suddenly Mat had no longer died at all. Because it was his death that broke the connection, and now his death no longer happened, doesnt that mean the connection never broke in the first place?

 

If anyone says "Mat died because it was in the books" I will explode.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Noone is ta'veren from birth, people become ta'veren when and if the Wheel needs to.

 

Is this referenced or stated anywhere? 

 

I know it's stated many times by different characters that there are degrees in the strength of ta'veren.  But isn't it more likely that the Pattern spins them out as Ta'veren?  Now again, a Ta'veren through choices / etc may resist the Pattern, but they still were spun our for a somewhat pre-ordained purpose. Couldn't you assume that Olver's being Ta'veren is what kept him alive when all others near him were killed or died?  Birgitte was ripped from TAR but I think you could still say she's Ta'veren. 

[Majsju]

My guess is yes. Rahvin killed Mat, which severed Mats connection to the Horn, and then suddenly Mat had no longer died at all. Because it was his death that broke the connection, and now his death no longer happened, doesnt that mean the connection never broke in the first place?

 

If anyone says "Mat died because it was in the books" I will explode.

 

Logically, this should be the case. Only real option to sever Mats connection to the Horn would be if it had some crazy function that could ignore the effects of balefie (something not even the DO can do), and I honestly can not see RJ go there. It would require an insane amount of explanation to make it work.

 

Is this referenced or stated anywhere? 

 

I know it's stated many times by different characters that there are degrees in the strength of ta'veren.  But isn't it more likely that the Pattern spins them out as Ta'veren?  Now again, a Ta'veren through choices / etc may resist the Pattern, but they still were spun our for a somewhat pre-ordained purpose. Couldn't you assume that Olver's being Ta'veren is what kept him alive when all others near him were killed or died?  Birgitte was ripped from TAR but I think you could still say she's Ta'veren. 

 

At least twice confirmed by RJ, in the interview attached to the Glimmers ebbok, and in his blog (the one hosted by DM)

 

As for Birgitte, she is a Hero of the Horn, not ta'veren.

[ROB_88]

Couldn't you assume that Olver's being Ta'veren is what kept him alive when all others near him were killed or died? 

 

when is it ever stated that Olver is Ta'veren?

 

i can agree that the death that never happened by Balefire might not have broken the connection.

but i repeat: how about when he was hanged from Avendesora, he didn't breathe or have any pulse for several minutes, maybe more depending on how long he had ben up there, so he was technically dead for some time.

[Majsju]

Just because the heart stops beating for a short moment, you are not technically dead.

When asked how long Mat hung from the tree, RJ answered "Long enough to be almost dead". RJ has also confirmed that the balefire in Caemlyn was the incident that fulfilled Mats prophecy about dying and living again, and since that incident took place well after Rhuidean...

[Jethro]

Agreed. Mat didnt die at Rhuidean, because Rand took the noose off Mat and got him breathing again. Since Mat didnt die, nothing about him changed in that respect-what the Finns did doesnt change anything either.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

As for Birgitte, she is a Hero of the Horn, not ta'veren.

 

Are all ta'veren Heroes of the Horn?

[Majsju]

As for Birgitte, she is a Hero of the Horn, not ta'veren.

 

Are all ta'veren Heroes of the Horn?

 

We do not know for sure, but most likely no. Both Heroes and ta'veren are tools to help the Wheel make corrections if the pattern is drifting too far from the intended course. Putting in a restriction that only allowed Heroes to be made ta'veren would kinda go against the Wheels "ability" to make people ta'veren when there is need for one.

 

[Tyrell]

Heroes can be Ta'veren, but not all Tav'eren are Heroes and not all Heroes are Ta'veren.

[CUBAREY]

But isn't it more likely that the Pattern spins them out as Ta'veren?  Now again, a Ta'veren through choices / etc may resist the Pattern, but they still were spun our for a somewhat pre-ordained purpose. Couldn't you assume that Olver's being Ta'veren is what kept him alive when all others near him were killed or died?  Birgitte was ripped from TAR but I think you could still say she's Ta'veren. 

 

Think of it this way the pattern spins out ta'veren in order to make sure that a certain act or outocme occurs. It can spin out its choosen actor anywhere in the pattern. Therefore it spins them out in a place, time and circumstances that will guarantee that the essential actor is at the precise location (or locations) necessary to weave the Pattern in the required manner. So there is no need for the actor to be ta'veren from birth or for her to be ta'veren after it has manipulated the weave in the desired direction. Thus,

it might better be described as certain people are born with a dorment gene that gets turned on when the Pattern requires it and then goes dorment when the desire manipulation of the pattern has been acomplished.OLtherwise thd Wheel would be risking that ta'veren could be manipulating the weave in unexpected and unwanted ways prior to and after the reason the person was spun out in the first place. Which would require more ta'veren to be spunout to counteract or correct the first ta'verens unintended manipulation, which would require more ta'veren to be spunout to correct the second batches uninted effects and so on, which would likely cause the weave to be so constantly pulled this way and that way that it would soon tear or unravel.

 

[Majsju]

Think of it this way the pattern spins out ta'veren in order to make sure that a certain act or outocme occurs. It can spin out its choosen actor anywhere in the pattern. Therefore it spins them out in a place, time and circumstances that will guarantee that the essential actor is at the precise location (or locations) necessary to weave the Pattern in the required manner. So there is no need for the actor to be ta'veren from birth or for her to be ta'veren after it has manipulated the weave in the desired direction. Thus,

it might better be described as certain people are born with a dorment gene that gets turned on when the Pattern requires it and then goes dorment when the desire manipulation of the pattern has been acomplished.OLtherwise thd Wheel would be risking that ta'veren could be manipulating the weave in unexpected and unwanted ways prior to and after the reason the person was spun out in the first place. Which would require more ta'veren to be spunout to counteract or correct the first ta'verens unintended manipulation, which would require more ta'veren to be spunout to correct the second batches uninted effects and so on, which would likely cause the weave to be so constantly pulled this way and that way that it would soon tear or unravel.

 

 

I think it is quite unlikely that people would be pre-destined to become ta'veren for some time. That seems to me like they would be some kind of Heroes Light. If the Wheel can predict the corrections that must be made so accuratly, why not simply spin out a Hero, to make sure things does happen the way they should? The Heroes seems to be a much more controlled way for making these corrections, where a ta'veren is a tad more unpredictable when it comes to the outcomes. Yes, a ta'veren gets the job done when looking at the big picture. But they do cause ripples on a the smaller scale.

If the person even survives long enough to get "activated", that is.

 

Rather, I think the Wheel simply choses someone according to its needs. Identify and assess the situation, then identify which person who would be best suited to become ta'veren in order to fix the specific situation.

[Jethro]

A Ta'veren has no control whatsoever over his spin on events. Rand cannot choose when things will turn out in his favor; the Ta'veren aspect would be absent until the Pattern distributed it. Since RJ said nobody is born Ta'veren, I think it is safe to say that the information from the books is correct despite coming mostly from Third Agers. The Pattern does not usually select a Ta'veren in advance, not unless its someone like Rand, and even then it would be more like "That guy is the Dragon Reborn. When the time is right, he will be my Ta'veren." People become Ta'veren when the Pattern desires it, not before, and it will only do so at a time that is necessary.

 

Unless the Ta'veren was a channeler and knew the weave to duplicate the Ta'veren affect, there is no way to use the Ta'veren spin against the Pattern, at least not that we know of. Even if Rand was turned to the Shadow against his will, the Ta'veren affect would either be removed by the Pattern, or it would carry on benefiting the Pattern, NOT RAND, despite him now being a DF channeler. For example, say if the newly Shadow-turned Rand was still Ta'veren, Darkfriends near him might follow him only to be killed in a situation they would otherwise have avoided, or someone able to remove the Turned to the Shadow status might "just have happened" to be near them, and this would mean the Pattern had sent them in advance in order to get its Ta'veren back in the right frame of mind before he can do some real damage. Note that the frame of mind wouldnt change the Ta'veren spin on events but the Pattern would definitely want its Champion to acknowledge that he is still its Champion.

 

If the Wheel can predict the corrections that must be made so accuratly, why not simply spin out a Hero, to make sure things does happen the way they should? The Heroes seems to be a much more controlled way for making these corrections, where a ta'veren is a tad more unpredictable when it comes to the outcomes. Yes, a ta'veren gets the job done when looking at the big picture.

 

The Wheel made Rand Ta'veren to deal with those corrections. It also made Mat and Perrin Ta'veren because it knew one wouldnt be enough, however strong, and it also gave Min visions so Rand could find the way. It made Moiraine and Lan appear in the Two Rivers before the towns population could be wiped out by Fains Trollocs. You could even argue that Rands rare type of madness is down to Ta'veren if you dig deep enough. It is a very rare type of madness according to Graendal; what are the chances of a Ta'veren channeler destined to save the world benefitting from knowledge from a past Age, when others wouldnt have ever thought to trust a voice in their head? Even that sounds lke Ta'veren to me. Rand is going insane, this could have had drastic affects on his role as saviour of the world, but nooooo. The Pattern thinks, well, seeing as hes going loopy, lets use the unprobability factor to slide in the one type of madness that will let him get knowledge of the Power when there is no other source and will also enable him to recognise the Chosen. The slate that flew over a street and through a window to kill someone might have killed someone that needed killing. Pigeons colliding might have occurred to make people look away from something the Pattern didnt want them to notice. We will never know.

[Samudor]

I don't know if I can agree with all of what you are saying on the Pattern's influence. I think that this story for the most part is driven by the decisions of it's characters. When Moiraine says "the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills," I think that often is an expression of just "crap happens." Something being part of the pattern is another way of saying- what's done is done- move on. I don't think it makes sense to see providence in every single thing that happens. It is true that Rand is locked into a certain course of action- as are Mat and Perrin- but what makes this work intriguing is how they try to fight it. Perrin is a prime example of this- he chose to abandon the fight against the Shadow in order to pursue his wife- and on top of that condemn 400 women to servitude with the Seanchan. In the end, some of what he did may prove to be a benefit to the Pattern, however I doubt all of it will. His actions and decisions recently have been quite selfish, and understandable-I would have done the same thing in his shoes. Overall, the Pattern may survive, but how many people will pay the price who may not have had to?