Nicola and Arenia

[bjclinton]

What the heck is their deal? Does anyone else suspect that Nicola is going to turn Darkfriend? She just seems waaay too ambitious and willing to do anything for power, knowledge, etc.

 

Thoughts?

[benr]

She's very volatile.  I could also see her playing a role helping Egwene overthrow Elaida; she could g either way.

[Snowy Dawn]

``Does anyone else suspect that Nicola is going to turn Darkfriend?''

 

I would not have before this suggestion, but her ambition would leave her open to the likes of Mesaana, if Mesaana had a clue about how to exploit it. For the present, however, Nicola is firmly under Egwene's influence, and only if someone could persuade her that Egwene is Black Ajah would she turn, so it seems to me.

[Hybrid]

I believe a better title for this thread would be Nicola and Areina.  Nicola and Alivia have no connections.

[Vemynal]

i think if you had posted this prior to book 11 i'd be all "hell yes! she must have been the one to betray egwene!"

 

because thats exactly what i thought

 

 

after book 11...i see Nicola's star rising and shining brightly and her becoming a force to be reckoned with in the near future.

[Tigara]

I've always beena  bit suspicious of them, mostly because they were traveling with "Marigan" for a time. Areina more than Nicola though. Nicola is just power mad, but I think she's gonna stick with Egwene.

[Spirit1025]

When Nicola first showed up, I  thought she was a Darkfriend. Now I don't know. It will be interesting to see what happens with her...

[RAND AL THOR]

Nicola isn't really 'power mad.' She just wants to learn as fast as possible. She dislikes the limitations put on her training.

 

Or did 'power mad' mean 'One Power mad?' =then it would be correct of course,

[Spirit1025]

Nicola isn't really 'power mad.' She just wants to learn as fast as possible. She dislikes the limitations put on her training.

 

She is a lot like Egwene in that respect.

[DemandredFO]

Nicola reminds me of Annikan Skywalker; on the good side but presented in the right way could go darkside.  Before Egwene was raised Amarlyn I could of seen her turn but now I don't think so.  I must say I HATE EGWENE

[Hybrid]

Nicola reminds me of Annikan Skywalker; on the good side but presented in the right way could go darkside.  Before Egwene was raised Amarlyn I could of seen her turn but now I don't think so.  I must say I HATE EGWENE

 

Minus the angst.  Though, Nicola is not power hungry.  She does not want power, and she has no reason to abandon the Light as of now.  She simply wants to reach her potential ASAP.  Though she could change sides with the right pressures.  Such as 13 channelers and 13 Myrrdraal.  :o

[Luckers]

I think Nicola is changing into something respectable...

 

And, i dont know if this is what you meant, but i think part of the wierdness between Nicola and Areina comes from a bond--the way they mirror each others emotions seems very similar to Elayne and Birgitte, and doing something like this--finding out how to bond someone, and then bonding each other--fits the two of them to a tee.

[Fryn]

I never caught that Luckers, but that would make a lot of sense. I think Nicola is there to show some of the special treatment the 3 wonder girls had. Nicola has just as much innate potential for growth as those 3 did, but didn't have the special treatment. Nicola sees how fast those 3 progressed and just wants the same treatment. Dangerous or not to be forced to that point, it is interesting to see those three reacting so harshly about someone trying to do what tehy did themselves.

 

You also see this with Nyv when she finds out there are other channelers with more potential than she has.

[Asmo]

I think Nicola is there to show some of the special treatment the 3 wonder girls had.

 

Like being sent to hunt the Black Ajah? That was their reward for following an Aes Sedai's orders. Along with scrubbing pots. And when they came back to Salidar, bringing important news and a few rediscovered Talents? Even more pots. Oh, and a pat on the head here and there. In between the pot-scrubbing. If anything, Salidar should have disabused Nicola of any thoughts of "special treatment". Except, of course, there was the little matter of Myrelle and Lan.

 

Nicola has just as much innate potential for growth as those 3 did, but didn't have the special treatment.

 

Except Nynaeve would mop the floor with someone of Nicola's potential strength, and probably Elayne and Egwene as well, and they haven't even hit their own potentials yet. Nicola's potential would have been remarkable before the three, and that's why she's jealous, but there's nothing to suggest that she will ever be stronger than Cadsuane.

 

Nicola sees how fast those 3 progressed and just wants the same treatment. Dangerous or not to be forced to that point, it is interesting to see those three reacting so harshly about someone trying to do what tehy did themselves.

 

But Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene didn't really choose to get forced. Nynaeve was a wilder, so her strength development arc curved more abruptly than for those trained in the Tower, perhaps, and Egwene got forced by the Seanchan's methods of training damane, but Elayne's progression was rather natural - the stronger you are, the faster you grow. If they rose faster than they would have, well, events went that way. Blame the Pattern, and maybe some of Rand's taverenship rubbing off on them. At any rate, it's important to note that, though they expressed their desire to do so, they never really tried to rise above their stations. So a reproachful attitude towards those who do, disregarding the dangers involved, is logical.

 

You also see this with Nyv when she finds out there are other channelers with more potential than she has.

 

Her reactions are pretty rational and cool-headed IMO. She was a bit upset about Talaan, but she never let it show, really. And according to Elayne's theory about slowing, if Talaan is nineteen then she has already hit as much of her potential as Nynaeve, so their end-level strength isn't all that much different, probably. And Nynaeve had reasons to be agitated around Alivia, considering who she was and what she is going to help Rand with.

[Fryn]

Well all 3 disregarded what Suian told them to do, and were so in a rush for more adventure (oh sure they wanted to help Rand, but the main reason was they were sick of the tower) that they fell into the BA plot (and forsaken). In the process Egwene was almost sent across the ocean to seachan. There actions were just as reckless as Nicola's in the earlier books; they all mellowed out, but it doesn't change their earlier actions.

 

A large reason for Nicola's actions in the camp were due to Nyv and Elayne. She knew that those two were in the wrong, and lost her respect for the pair once she learned the truth. If you remember Nicola was in awe of the two until she realised they were just accepted, playing at being full sisters. Iirc Nyv and Elayne strongarmed Nicola so their secret wasn't put out in the open. Had they taken Nicola under their wing instead of trying to distance themselves things might of been different.

 

Nicola is far from an angel, but I don't see what actions, outside blackmailing an AS, the 3 wonder girls haven't done in the stroy before her. Although I would guess hiding a forsaken and then losing that forsaken would be seen as much much worse by the other Aes Sedai, as it seems blackmailing each other is par for the course.

 

I guess my main point was in the earlier books you get the picture that the 3 girls are something huge and special, but in the later books we are getting introduced to characters that can fill the void if something were to happen to those 3. Nicola is just one of them. I think we are at 3 female channelers that are either close or just below Nyv (the 2 you listed as well as one of the new found women the group found while marching north), and a fair few that are near Elyane/Egwene.

 

It was the direct result of the girls actions that they were sent after the BA, so they chose their destiny so to speak. If they weren't foolish enough to run off in the Great Hunt, Suian never would of sent them off after the BA in the dragon reborn. If they had followed AS orders they never would of ended up in Falme (and if they had of learned their lesson from that mistake they would not of fallen for Lanfear's ploy to make them all pawns in the stone, or at least verified with Suian before running off).

 

They were "rewarded" with scrubbing pots because they seemed to go out of their way not to fit in, and do as they were told, and for not thinking things through. For all intents and purposed they were technically runaways twice, and were outside the tower without permission. Your post makes it sound like they had no choice in their actions for the first 3 or so books; where all they did was go from one trap to another =p. Really they are just lucky the other Aes Sedai didn't learn that Elayne had a warder, and that they had claimed to be Aes Sedai or pot scrubbing would of been the least of their problems.

 

They have done nothing but try to rise above thier stations throughout the series =). The easiest example is how they claimed to be AS, and spent most of their time making life hard on Mat, Hurron, and Thom. The main issue they had in the early story is they didn't want to learn in the tower and wanted action, so they run off when they shouldn't and get themselves in trouble more often than not, and into bad situations where a full sister wouldn't. From a story perspective it had to happen or you would just have 3 of your main characters stuck off learning while the others were doing interesting things, and I think it was done well. They went off and had their fun, and thought they were heroes, but were punnished for their actions even when successful, and played the role of the stranded damsels to move the storyline along (Egwene being trapped in Falme was why Rand proclaimed himself the dragon; The 3 being captured by the BA was why Mat went to Tear, ie back to rand and his fate). The worst offender is Nyv of course, and only settles down after marrying Lan and learning from Cadsuanne.

 

None of this makes those 3 characters bad, it just shows they have grown through the series.

[Hybrid]

Those three + Min were experts at getting captured in the early books.

"We don't need any help, thank you very much."

"Oops, Liandrin/bandits/Black Ajah trap/Ronde Macura/etc."

Then they mistreat Mat/Thom/Juilin after being rescued and continue to insist on not needing any help.  Though, in their defense, they are powerful channelers.  Just more instances of channelers underestimating non-channelers, which is a major trend in WOT.

 

[Leopoled Boothe]

I don't think Nicola will go darkfriend.  RJ was very good at embedding charater flaws in his character's personalities and emphasizing those flaws.  I think he wanted to make the point that everbody who fights for the light is not necessarly the nicest, most compasionate, most charatible etc etc person in the world.  His world is not divided into good people and darkfriends.  Nicola is not very likable but I think she will stick with the light.  I still say that be big darkfriend reveal in AMOL will be Dylin.

[Ganth]

Is Nyn still the strongest female channeler in Randland - aside from some of the Forsaken of course. I'm doing a re-read and I just finished PoD where they mentioned Sharina having a higher potential than Nyn. Is that just an excited speculation from the Aes Sedai's standpoint?

 

I think I'm just overprotective over Nyn because she's my favorite character.. I wouldn't want anyone having better potential than she! :)

[Fryn]

Alivia is the strongest female by far (that we have seen). Lanfear says she is either as strong or stronger than she was before she lost some of her power, and Lanfear was at the limit for a female channeler. Nyv is only on par with Mog (which iirc was one of the weaker forsaken in pure one power levels, although better in TaR). And ya Sharina has a higher potential than nyv; that isn't just speculation. Nyv is at the upper level limits of a female channeler, but isn't at the max.

 

I like Nyv as well, because she really has progressed, and very few will surpass her power level, but there will be some. You knew others would have higher potential though, because she was never as strong as Lanfear (who iirc RJ stated was at the max of a female and stronger in the one power than some of the male forsaken)

[bjclinton]

Sharina is speculated to potentially grow as strong as a woman can possibly get in the power....

 

back to Nicola, the thing that really gets me about her is the fact that she's conniving. While I could understand some parallels between her ambition and the ambition that each of the wonder girls had, Nicola has taken it to a new level. Bribing sisters, threatening to Blackmail Egwene (and she was the A.S. at the time!) as well as spying on seeing how to make a gateway......those are character flaws and combine that with an insatiable desire for knowledge of how to use the OP overnight to its fullest potential makes her ripe for the picking IMO.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Alivia is the strongest female by far (that we have seen). Lanfear says she is either as strong or stronger than she was before she lost some of her power, and Lanfear was at the limit for a female channeler. Nyv is only on par with Mog (which iirc was one of the weaker forsaken in pure one power levels, although better in TaR). And ya Sharina has a higher potential than nyv; that isn't just speculation. Nyv is at the upper level limits of a female channeler, but isn't at the max.

 

I like Nyv as well, because she really has progressed, and very few will surpass her power level, but there will be some. You knew others would have higher potential though, because she was never as strong as Lanfear (who iirc RJ stated was at the max of a female and stronger in the one power than some of the male forsaken)

 

irt Fryn

 

you misread the text.  alivia was only as strong as she was when she encountered cyndane because she had an angreal(which cyndane correctly reasoned).

[Majsju]

Alivia is the strongest female by far (that we have seen). Lanfear says she is either as strong or stronger than she was before she lost some of her power, and Lanfear was at the limit for a female channeler. Nyv is only on par with Mog (which iirc was one of the weaker forsaken in pure one power levels, although better in TaR). And ya Sharina has a higher potential than nyv; that isn't just speculation. Nyv is at the upper level limits of a female channeler, but isn't at the max.

 

 

It is quite possible that Nyn had not reached her full potential when she faced off with Moghedien.

[Hybrid]

Fortunately, we can have this discussion because there is no numerical power ranking in WOT.  If there was, I would put the books down in disgust.  I always hated that element in Japanese anime.

[Ndshacker]

If I remember correctly, Sharina was stronger than Nynaeve, Allivia was on par (Or a little weaker) and There was the Authan'miere Girl who was going to be stronger than Nynaeve? Alot of this goes to show that the whit tower is alot less informed then they thought. We cannot assume that allivia is the strongest the seanchan has.  And we cannot compare Nynaeve to the Forsaken, because in all honesty I think if she was born in the age of legends, when so much more was possible, and all the channelers were way stronger. I think Nynaeve would easily trump any one of the forsaken. That is just my reasoning. Which is most likely flawed  ;D

[Mr Ares]

If I remember correctly, Sharina was stronger than Nynaeve, Allivia was on par (Or a little weaker) and There was the Authan'miere Girl who was going to be stronger than Nynaeve?

Sharina has a higher potential than Nynaeve, but that's not the same as saying she is currently stronger. Alivia has reached her potential, and is stronger than Nynaeve. Talaan is as strong as Nynaeve, but how much stronger she will end up depends on how close the two of them are to their full potential.

And we cannot compare Nynaeve to the Forsaken, because in all honesty I think if she was born in the age of legends, when so much more was possible, and all the channelers were way stronger. I think Nynaeve would easily trump any one of the forsaken. That is just my reasoning. Which is most likely flawed  ;D

You think if Nynaeve was born in the AoL she would be stronger? Why? Why do you think everyone in the AoL was stronger, by default, than anyone in the Third Age? What about Rand, as strong as a man can be but not, so far as we can tell, any stronger than LTT or Ishydin? Waht about Logain and Taim, close to him in strength?

 

Nyv is only on par with Mog (which iirc was one of the weaker forsaken in pure one power levels, although better in TaR).

A lot of people seem to recall that. None of them seem to have a reference. In fact, we have nothing, so far as I am aware, that places Moghedien anywhere in the Chosen strength hierarchy. Except for her being stronger than Lanfear, of course, but the only people in the seriesstated to be stronger than Lanfear are Ishamael/Moridin and LTT/Rand.