Nicola and Arenia

[Asmo]

I will try to clarify the issue a little bit. Forgive if my quotes don't match the books exactly, since I don't have them at hand. I'll just try to convey the general meaning.

 

Lanfear is at the top of the female channeler scale (Cyndane: "...no woman could be stronger! She must have had an angreal, too." referring to her earlier strength prior to her capture).

 

Despite her being weaker than before she was captured, Cyndane was stated to be stronger than Graendal.

 

After Lanfear, we probably have Graendal, who stated that females with more strength than her were "extremely rare, even in the Age of Legends". We know Mesaana and Semirhage are probably about the same strength, so if one was stronger than Graendal, both were, which comes at odds with the statement. If all of the females save Moghedien were stronger than Graendal, then women stronger than her in the Age of Legends would be unusual, but not particularly rare. Remember, in the Age of Legends we had a far greater average strength in the One Power than in the Third Age.

 

Semirhage and Mesaana are probably about the same strength, like I said above, according to one of Mesaana's statements. To be fair, that statement was general, not just referring to the Power, but since we have no indication either way, it's a safe bet to say any difference between them is minimal.

 

Moghedien is the weakest of the female Forsaken. Explanation some way below.

 

Now, off to the good guys.

 

Nynaeve, untrained, was a perfect match for Moghedien. Later, she became even stronger, and as late as Winter's Heart, she still hasn't hit her full potential. She might have reached it by now, perhaps due to the afterwash of the vast amount of saidar she held at the Cleansing, but it is not certain. According to Robert Jordan, Nynaeve would grow to be stronger than some of the female Forsaken. If she was weaker than Semirhage and Mesaana, she would only be stronger than Moghedien, that statement wouldn't apply, and if she was stronger than Graendal, the only female stronger would be Lanfear, so again, that statement would be odd in the context. So I believe Nynaeve's end potential to be between Semirhage/Mesaana and Graendal. Whether she has reached it by now or not is up for grabs, however, I don't think she had reached Semirhage's level by Winter's Heart.

 

Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve during Winter's Heart. She most probably has hit her potential long since, given she is 400+ years old, and has been forced by the Seanchan. Apparently, she could overpower Nynaeve with sheer strength alone, regardless of whether Nynaeve used the knowledge and weaves she had leeched off Moghedien. To be fair, that statement was made when Nynaeve was exhausted, but if it didn't apply elsewhere, it would be made in a different context. Cadsuane apparently makes the same observation. "...I'll have Alivia take you back to the Heights and teach you two a lesson" This was said in Far Madding, and Cadsuane implied that if they were out of the city where they could channel, Alivia could overwhelm Nynaeve with little effort. If she just meant physically, they wouldn't have to go to the Heights to do that. Of course, it wouldn't go exactly like that, since Nynaeve had an angreal, but Cadsuane didn't know that at the point (at least, it doesn't seem so). Anyway, Alivia is still weaker than Lanfear, according to Cyndane's thoughts. We have no indication whether Cyndane is stronger or weaker than Alivia, but if she survived the encounter despite Alivia's angreal and managed to burn Alivia's hand, I'm inclined to give this to Cyndane. Of course, we don't know how Cyndane ended up after the duel, but anyway. I place Alivia between Cyndane and Graendal.

 

Talaan was as strong as Nynaeve in Winter's Heart. Nynaeve commented she looked young, and therefore assumed she was far from her full potential, but later we find out that Nynaeve's estimation was off by a good five years, so Talaan may be closer to her maximum than Nynaeve thought (you could have thought they could just measure her potential directly, just like they did with pretty much everyone else, but anyway...). Either way, I place Talaan around Nynaeve, else it's just going in circles.

 

Sharina has a potential "far beyond anyone in living memory save Nynaeve, and above Nynaeve as well". While here it is said that Sharina will be stronger than Nynaeve, it doesn't imply a massive difference. People in Salidar had never seen Alivia, let alone Lanfear. It is safe to say that Sharina will grow beyond Graendal, but not very much so. I think she'll end up weaker than Alivia, but it could go either way, technically.

 

Anyway, as far as the top tiers of female strength are concerned, here are my estimations (full potential, not current strength):

 

1) Lanfear

2) Cyndane

3) Alivia

4) Sharina

5) Graendal

6) Nynaeve = Talaan

7) Semirhage = Mesaana

8) Moghedien

 

As for current strength, the list stays rather the same, except Nynaeve and Talaan are probably still weaker than Semirhage and Mesaana (at least in Winter's Heart), and Sharina disappears completely.

 

Now, onto the lesser levels - below Forsaken strength, but above the Aes Sedai norm.

 

The list here features prominently our well-known trio - Elayne, Aviendha, and Egwene. We might as well add Metarra in, a Sea Folk Windfinder who could match Elayne during the Path of Daggers. Two of the Aiel Wise Ones, Tamela and Viendre, were stated to be stronger than Elayne. We don't know how they compare to each other, but I'd say they are about even. What's more, another of the Wise Ones, Someryn of the Shaido, was stated by Graendal to have great strength, as much strength as for her to refrain from teaching her powerful weaves in case she grew too dangerous. That might mean that Someryn is stronger than Moghedien, but I doubt even Graendal would remain sanguine about a woman of Forsaken strength, even low-Forsaken. At any rate, Someryn "prided herself in never having met a woman as strong as she", and since she should have met most of the other Wise Ones, it's safe to say she is stronger than Tamela and Viendre. It can be argued whether the Aes Sedai norm stands by Cadsuane or by Moiraine / Siuan / Elaida etc, but let's assume the second case. In that instance, we also have Cadsuane who is fairly below Elayne and co, and Therava, who is "stronger than any woman in the Tower". Nicola's potential is also greater than Moiraine's, but nothing implies she will be stronger than Cadsuane - indeed, barring Nynaeve and her friends, Nicola had the strongest potential in centuries, yet Cadsuane was said to be the strongest in a thousand years; this statement clearly implies that Cadsuane's potential dwarfs Nicola's. Speaking of potentials, Bode Cauthon, Mat's sister, has a potential almost as great as Egwene's, so I guess she can be placed just below them. And Meilyn and Karene, stronger than Moiraine etc, who appeared in the New Spring.

 

So yeah. Below Moghedien stand:

 

1) Someryn

2) Tamela = Viendre

3) Egwene = Elayne = Metarra = Aviendha

4) Bode

5) Cadsuane

6) Therava

7) Nicola

8) Meilyn

9) Karene

 

The above lists are pretty much set in stone, unfortunately. Stated facts support them, and if some points can be challenged, the end result will still look almost exactly the same.

 

Mr Ares, concerning Moghedien's standing in comparison to the rest of the Forsaken, we have Semirhage's attitude towards Lanfear - jealous, spiteful. We have Mesaana's attitude towards Semirhage - a subtle, underlying form of respect and acknowledgement, as well as wariness. And we have everyone's attitude towards Moghedien. They are all disdainful of her and her style of action, looking down on her. We also have Moghedien's own actions. Always hiding, never in the open unless sure of victory. If she was stronger than most of the Age-of-Legenders, as most of the Forsaken are implied to be, why would she need to keep hidden all the time? She also claimed that she was often underestimated, and thus was able to lull her enemies into her snares. Why would she be underestimated if there was nothing to underestimate? And last but not least, we have RJ's statement that Nynaeve would grow to surpass most of the Forsaken. If she was already dead even with Moghedien in TSR, and Moghedien was stronger than Semirhage / Mesaana, how many would that leave for her to "grow to surpass"? "Most" means at least one will be left out, so Nynaeve won't become stronger than Lanfear. Only Graendal? But then, why "most" and not "almost all", or "all save Lanfear"? The context implies that she will stand just above the middle ground in the female Forsaken, which is between Graendal and Semirhage / Mesaana. Since she was already even to Moghedien, Semirhage and Mesaana would have to be stronger than her to surpass. Of course, it's all theoritizing, but my trail of thought follows logic and common sense, unlike just claiming that Moghedien is a Forsaken of medium or high strength.

 

Furthermore, another point in your post is flawed. Rahvin said he and Sammael could trump Lanfear when it came to raw strength. Rahvin was almost as strong as Rand. Later, Dashiva - Aginor - was also almost as strong as Rand. Demandred was stronger than Aginor. All of these are above Lanfear. Who would actually win is another matter, but in terms of raw strength in the power, these five males stand above Lanfear, who stands above all the other females. We don't know about the remaining three males, but I place them below her.

 

However, the claim that Nynaeve would be somehow stronger if she was born in the Age of Legends is ludicrous. True, the average strength in the Power was probably higher in the Age of Legends (or even not that, just the channeler numbers were greater, depending on how you view it), but how strong you are has nothing to do with when you are born. Except, of course, Nynaeve would know a fair number of useful weaves that have been lost in the Third Age and they couldn't retrieve through Moghedien and their own rediscoveries.

 

And last, to a point made concerning one of my earlier posts:

 

Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene and Min simply obeyed one of the Aes Sedai, as Accepted must do. They should not have been punished because Liandrin happened to be Black Ajah. Refusing an Aes Sedai was something they were not supposed to do anyway.

[Fryn]

Well for those power rankings and RJs statements to make sense, you need to remember that RJ also mentioned that the Forsaken lie to themselves to inflate their own worth. So A forsaken saying someone is equal to them in power might just mean they are weaker, but don't want to admit it. So you could find that Nyv could be higher than many of the Forsaken even if the forsaken wouldn't agree.

 

Cyd likely got away from Alivia, but she had the advantage of being one of the best channelers and knowing weaves that Alivia doesn't know.

 

Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene and Min simply obeyed one of the Aes Sedai, as Accepted must do. They should not have been punished because Liandrin happened to be Black Ajah. Refusing an Aes Sedai was something they were not supposed to do anyway.

 

If an Aes Sedai told a novice to jump off a cliff would the novice be required to follow through? That is pretty much the comparison to what they were asked to do. Anyone that was thinking clearly would of at the very least confirmed and questioned the request.

 

Suian "It may be your salvation that no one in the tower but verin, leane, and I even suspects you had anything to do with Liandrin. If that were known, much less the little demonstration you put on for the whitecloaks... if it were known you had gone off with Liandrin, the Hall might very well vote for stilling the three of you before you could take a breath."

 

Suian "Letting yourselves be winkled out of the tower like thoughtless children. Even an infant would never have fallen into that trap. I will teach you to think before you act..."

 

Nyv "I know we have done things we should not have, Mother. I assure you, we will do our best to live as if we have taken the three oaths"

 

Suian "See that you do... If I could, I'd put the oath rod in your hands tonight, but as that is reserved for being raised to AS, I must trust to your good sense - if you have any - to keep you whole."

 

Suian "I will not allowchildishness out of you girl. A measure of stupidity can be tolerated in a novice; it is not allowed in one of the Accepted."

 

Keep in mind that the 3 girls have actually broken the three oaths, both at this point and after saying they wouldn't. Nicola hasn't. Blackmailing an AS might be seen as a bad thing to do, but AS do it to each other contstantly. AS however do not use the one power as a weapon unless they have to (I am pretty sure the AS wouldn't like hearing that Egwene used the One power in battle against the Shaido). And they were punished for exactly the reasons Suian points out; their crime was acting before they thought it through, and they were right to be punnished for it. Really they got off light. Using the One power against the White cloaks alone should of been enough for worse punnishment.

[Mr Ares]

so if one was stronger than Graendal, both were, which comes at odds with the statement.

It makes it less likely, not wrong. And that says nothnig as to whether or not Moghedien stands above any of them.

If all of the females save Moghedien were stronger than Graendal, then women stronger than her in the Age of Legends would be unusual, but not particularly rare.

How do you work that one out? What if they are almost everybody of that level of strength? How rare is rare?

 

According to Robert Jordan, Nynaeve would grow to be stronger than some of the female Forsaken.

Really?

 

Mr Ares, concerning Moghedien's standing in comparison to the rest of the Forsaken, we have Semirhage's attitude towards Lanfear - jealous, spiteful. We have Mesaana's attitude towards Semirhage - a subtle, underlying form of respect and acknowledgement, as well as wariness. And we have everyone's attitude towards Moghedien. They are all disdainful of her and her style of action, looking down on her. We also have Moghedien's own actions. Always hiding, never in the open unless sure of victory. If she was stronger than most of the Age-of-Legenders, as most of the Forsaken are implied to be, why would she need to keep hidden all the time? She also claimed that she was often underestimated, and thus was able to lull her enemies into her snares. Why would she be underestimated if there was nothing to underestimate? And last but not least, we have RJ's statement that Nynaeve would grow to surpass most of the Forsaken. If she was already dead even with Moghedien in TSR, and Moghedien was stronger than Semirhage / Mesaana, how many would that leave for her to "grow to surpass"? "Most" means at least one will be left out, so Nynaeve won't become stronger than Lanfear. Only Graendal? But then, why "most" and not "almost all", or "all save Lanfear"? The context implies that she will stand just above the middle ground in the female Forsaken, which is between Graendal and Semirhage / Mesaana. Since she was already even to Moghedien, Semirhage and Mesaana would have to be stronger than her to surpass. Of course, it's all theoritizing, but my trail of thought follows logic and common sense, unlike just claiming that Moghedien is a Forsaken of medium or high strength.

There we go, trotting out the usual justifications. One problem: Moggy is a coward. Being a coward does not necessarily mean you are physically weak. The other Chosen can look down on her because of her cowardice, underestimate her for the same reason, and it says nothing about her strength in the Power, not one way or t'other. Your assumptions are flawed, therefore your conclusion is flawed.

 

Furthermore, another point in your post is flawed. Rahvin said he and Sammael could trump Lanfear when it came to raw strength. Rahvin was almost as strong as Rand. Later, Dashiva - Aginor - was also almost as strong as Rand. Demandred was stronger than Aginor. All of these are above Lanfear. Who would actually win is another matter, but in terms of raw strength in the power, these five males stand above Lanfear, who stands above all the other females. We don't know about the remaining three males, but I place them below her.

Actually, I'm not wrong about this. RJ claimed the Chosen lie to themselves about their own strengths - specifically, Rahvin was lying to himself, and he included Sammael because he knew Sammael's strength in rrelation to his own. Ishamael is the strongest Chosen. Lanfear is the next down, the Aginor (those two are very close - he may actually be the stronger of the two, but Lanfear is the one usually given the edge). The other Chosen follow behind. Demandred is definitely not stronger than Aginor. Only Ishamael, among the male Chosen, surpasses him for raw strength. This is given in the BWB, with Lanfear's status as number 2 behind Ishy also given in the books (TGH, IIRC).

[Asmo]

But the Forsaken knew that Moghedien being a coward did not reduce her effectiveness in dispatching her enemies. They had experienced her tactics first hand. Therefore, they couldn't have underestimated her because of that. Therefore, they must be underestimating her because of something else. By far the most likely candidate for this parameter is strength in the Power.

 

As for Graendal's statement, I'm not claiming it's conclusive. I'm claiming that, under the context, if Graendal was the fourth of the five female Forsaken in order of strength, it wouldn't make much sense for her to say that women stronger than her in the Power were "rare indeed".

 

Evidence in the books holds far more weight than the BWB, fact. Lanfear claimed a rather untrained Rand could overwhelm her in raw strength. Rahvin, Sammael and Aginor all have strengths very close to Rand's. Ishamael is stronger. Demandred knew Aginor wouldn't dare to challenge him. Ishamael, Lanfear and Aginor were said to be the strongest Forsaken. Facts proved those sources wrong.

 

Your assumptions are flawed, therefore your conclusion is flawed.

 

I don't assume anything. Except the part about Graendal and Moghedien, which hold little real weight to the argument at hand, the rest are facts. But even if I did assume things, even if those assumptions were flawed, that still wouldn't mean my conclusions were wrong. One may follow a flawed trail of thought and still end up with correct conclusions. Fact.

[Mr Ares]

But the Forsaken knew that Moghedien being a coward did not reduce her effectiveness in dispatching her enemies. They had experienced her tactics first hand. Therefore, they couldn't have underestimated her because of that. Therefore, they must be underestimating her because of something else. By far the most likely candidate for this parameter is strength in the Power.

But they knew her strength in the Power - such would be readily apparent to any woman that laid eyes on her. So obviously it was not that that caused them to underestimate her. As they knew that her being fantastically strong/ridiculously weak/anywhere inbetween did not affect her abilty to dispose of her opponents. So they couldn't have underestimated her because of that, as they had first hand experience of it. How they treat her does in no way reflect on her strength in the Power. To believe so is absurd. They underestimated her because she appeared weak, even though they had evidence about how dangerous she was. Appearances casn be deceptive, and there is more to strength than strength in the Power

 

As for Graendal's statement, I'm not claiming it's conclusive. I'm claiming that, under the context, if Graendal was the fourth of the five female Forsaken in order of strength, it wouldn't make much sense for her to say that women stronger than her in the Power were "rare indeed".

Why not? Because you say so. If they were the five strongest women of the Age of Legends, then women supassing her, even if she was the weakest of the five, would be very rare indeed - they would number but 4 out of maybe millions of channelers. And who is saying she was fourth, anyway? Why not third? As in, behind Lanfear and Moghedien, but ahead of/equal to the others. Or equal to Moghedien, but not surpassed by her, but above the others.

 

Evidence in the books holds far more weight than the BWB, fact. Lanfear claimed a rather untrained Rand could overwhelm her in raw strength. Rahvin, Sammael and Aginor all have strengths very close to Rand's. Ishamael is stronger. Demandred knew Aginor wouldn't dare to challenge him. Ishamael, Lanfear and Aginor were said to be the strongest Forsaken. Facts proved those sources wrong.

When? Ishamael is still the strongest male Chosen. Has Aginor ever been said to be weaker than any of the others, bar Ishy? For the others being close behind Rand, how close is close? Going by the evidence in the books and the BWB, not just ignoring inconvenient facts that happen to disagree with whatever crap I feel like making up we have a strength list like this:

Rand - LTT - Ishamael - Moridin: All equal

Lanfear - Aginor - Osan'gar: Slight edge to Lanfear maybe

Other male Chosen - other female Chosen - other non Chosen channelers: varying levels.

How about you show one quote that disagrees with this? Rahvin lying to himself about being stronger than Lanfear proves nothing, because of the aforementioned RJ quote which mentions that he was lying to himself. Demandred thinking Aginor wouldn't challenge him proves nothing besides the fact that a scientist wouldn't challenge a soldier to a fight. Smart. When I was a soldier there were not many scientist that would have risked challenging me. Must be beause of my strength in the Power. What "facts" prove the BWB wrong about our top three Chosen?

Your assumptions are flawed, therefore your conclusion is flawed.

I don't assume anything. Except the part about Graendal and Moghedien, which hold little real weight to the argument at hand, the rest are facts. But even if I did assume things, even if those assumptions were flawed, that still wouldn't mean my conclusions were wrong. One may follow a flawed trail of thought and still end up with correct conclusions. Fact.

Yes, fact. You seem to like saying that. Fact. If your initial assumtions are wrong, if the base for your reasoning is flawed, then you getting to the right answer may have more to do with luck than a perfect reasoning process, wouldn't you say, question? You assume more than you claim you do, fact. You are lying to yourself, fact, and to me, possibility, or may be just mistaken, other possibility. You assume that the only thing the could affect the way the Chosen interact with each other is strength in the Power, fact. This is a flawed assumtion, fact. This is not true even amongst the Aes Sedai, who have a strength based hierarchy, facts.

[Hybrid]

Regardless, Moghedien is far weaker than Lanfear.  She herself thinks she could never hope to match Lanfear in the One Power.  That isn't just a small gap in power.  That's a large one.  I think it's safe to say Moghedien is one of the weakest female Forsaken.  However, she is the strongest in TAR.  Lanfear claims TAR for her own, but both Birgitte and Moghedien think that Moghedien has is the strongest in TAR.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Regardless, Moghedien is far weaker than Lanfear.  She herself thinks she could never hope to match Lanfear in the One Power.  That isn't just a small gap in power.  That's a large one.  I think it's safe to say Moghedien is one of the weakest female Forsaken.  However, she is the strongest in TAR.  Lanfear claims TAR for her own, but both Birgitte and Moghedien think that Moghedien has is the strongest in TAR.

 

who's to say that there is not an equally large gap between lanfear and all the other female forsaken?

 

if anything, moghedien is simply more able to(compared to the other female forsaken) admit that she is weaker because she doesn't consider her primary strength to be the one power(even though it may be significant enough in regard to others).

[Hybrid]

who's to say that there is not an equally large gap between lanfear and all the other female forsaken?

Well, yes, this is true.  I based my assumption on the fact that none of the other Forsaken are hesitant about going head to head with Lanfear except maybe Asmodean.  They are weaker and know it, to be sure, but probably not by much.  You do not have to be stronger or equal to someone to be able to beat them.

[Mr Ares]

That isn't just a small gap in power. That's a large one.

Really? Such things are awfully subjective.

I think it's safe to say Moghedien is one of the weakest female Forsaken.

Isn't that the point of this argument? People seem to remember, or think it safe to say, but there is precious little to support it. She's the weakest because I say she is is what it boils down to. That's not a brilliant standard of debate.

[Hybrid]

Isn't that the point of this argument? People seem to remember, or think it safe to say, but there is precious little to support it. She's the weakest because I say she is is what it boils down to. That's not a brilliant standard of debate.

 

There is a lack of evidence for this topic.  In the end, we have to go on our gut instincts as to where the little evidence there is leads.  My gut instinct is that Moghedien's cowardly attitude results from being weaker than the rest of the Forsaken in a group of people where the weakest animal in the pack is torn apart by the others.  It could just as easily be that Moghedien was always cowardly, and this makes her seem less powerful than the other Forsaken.

[Paviel]

Nynaeve and Moghedien were evenly matched in book 4.

 

Could Nynaeve have had a clear advantage over any of the other Forsaken in book 4?

[Mr Ares]

Nynaeve and Moghedien were evenly matched in book 4.

 

Could Nynaeve have had a clear advantage over any of the other Forsaken in book 4?

She could have, depending on where Moghedien stands in relation to the other Chosen. If she is one of the strongest, then Nynaeve would have surpassed most of the others.

[lou]

nyn was "blocked" during her encounters with mog.

lanfear/cyndane tells the chosen that rand has a woman strong enough in the power to use the female access key, which we know to be nynaeve.

why is mog accredited to being such a coward? she ran one of the most successful spy networks right under LTT's nose, very dangerous.

certainly she waits for her moments, but so does everyone else.

[balefireruinssteaks]

we also have Moghedien's statement that she would love to see the look on Rhavin's face when he met Nynaeve unblocked and fully trained, suggesting (not conclusive, just a suggestion) that Nynaeve had a potential to match or even surpass Rhavin - and Rhavin ranked high in the list of male channelers if I remember.

 

And we cannot compare Nynaeve to the Forsaken, because in all honesty I think if she was born in the age of legends, when so much more was possible, and all the channelers were way stronger

 

The Age that you were born in doesn't necessarily affect a person's strength in the Power.  True, if a person was a skilled chef but only had one or two spices to work with, and then came in contact with another person of equal skill who had hundreds of spices to work with the second chef might win but not because he was better, simply that he had more to work with.  That first chef might do just as well with the use of one hundred spices.  [/end analogy, i'm hungry]

 

The Age of Legends had channelers who were powerful and channelers who were not.  Not every channeler was a match for a Chosen, or the equivalent of Nynaeve or Alivia.  There were a lot of weak channelers as well, but I think the standard of accepting people who could channel was different.  Everyone had a place in that society, and many people who could channel actually worked in fields that did not require channeling at all.  Like the Aiel, it was simply something extra that they could do that might come in handy for different tasks they may be called upon to handle.  But the variety didn't make people in that Age stronger or weaker.  We see when the women agree not to help Lews Therin with his plan that many of the women who agreed would not have been considered for the task anyway, even if they HAD wanted to help out.

 

This suggests that just like in this world there are very strong, strong, average, weak and very weak channelers.  the only real difference is that in this Age, the Aes Sedai thought they were the only channelers around...ignoring the concept that there might be organized groups of channelers among other societies such as the Aiel and the Atha'an Miere.  Or, that there might even be societies yet undiscovered in this world with people who could channel (i.e. Shara, Land of the Madman and Seanchan)

[Hybrid]

nyn was "blocked" during her encounters with mog.

lanfear/cyndane tells the chosen that rand has a woman strong enough in the power to use the female access key, which we know to be nynaeve.

why is mog accredited to being such a coward? she ran one of the most successful spy networks right under LTT's nose, very dangerous.

certainly she waits for her moments, but so does everyone else.

 

LOC, Prologue (p. 17, Tor paperback):

Moghedien claimed to have been afraid to go near any Aes Sedai, and that was believable enough.  Fear was a permanent part of the woman.

 

In context, Moghedien was captured by Nynaeve, but even so, all the other Forsaken view the Aes Sedai of today as "untrained children."  Moghedien is the only one to be afraid of going near Aes Sedai, even the Black Ajah (this quote is where Nynaeve is reflecting on asking Moghedien about Black Ajah plots).  She only revealed herself to Liandrin's group once, after masquerading as a servant, and only when she realized she would need a little help.  She might have been lying to cover up her plots, but I don't believe so.  Moghedien is a coward.  But that does not make her any less dangerous.

[Luckers]

There is a lack of evidence for this topic.  In the end, we have to go on our gut instincts as to where the little evidence there is leads.  My gut instinct is that Moghedien's cowardly attitude results from being weaker than the rest of the Forsaken in a group of people where the weakest animal in the pack is torn apart by the others.  It could just as easily be that Moghedien was always cowardly, and this makes her seem less powerful than the other Forsaken.

 

Well, we don't have to go solely on our guts. Moghedian was middle aged by the time the war began, 200 by the time the bore was even made. That means that she lived two hundred years in utopian peace. Her cowardice is function of her nature, and her nature would have been set long before she ever encountered direct hardship in her life. That means her cowardly nature developed in a time were she would never had to have feared open combat with another channeler--furthermore, in a time when she would have been stronger than the vast majority of other Aes Sedai that she dealt with. A time indeed where strength was never concidered in social hierarchy....

 

All of this make it unlikely that her cowardice have anything to do with being weaker than other channelers. Indeed some people simply have issues with anxiety and confrontation. She was intelligent enough and strong enough in herself to move forward besides that, but it still informs her nature, and thus the way others deal with her.

 

Nothing about that suggests her relative strength compared to the other forsaken. They dismiss her because of her cowardly nature, and that has nothing to do with her relative strength.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Moghedien is a coward.  But that does not make her any less dangerous.

 

Indeed, it's usually the cowardly people you have to watch out for; they do things in desperation very wrecklessly when pushed too hard or greatly offended.  their insecurities often compel them to do very destructive things in order to prove themselves to people.

 

Moghedien simply is not a confrontational person, but she thrived in working behind the scenes to cause havok and chaos.  She was exceptionally skilled in these things, and in the World of Dreams but even there we see that she probably didn't utilize Tel'aran'rhiod to her fullest because of Lanfear's claim on the World of Dreams.  Moghedien could best Lanfear in TAR, but she doesn't like confrontation.  I don't think this makes her weak, like other people have said - I think it makes her slightly more dangerous really.  She's kind of a wild card, you don't know where she is going to attack from or if she's going to attack at all.

 

 

So yea...uhm...Nicola.

 

She reminds me of a young Moiraine...eager to move forward and happy to break any rule to get there.  Nicola's methods are less thought out than Moiraine's (I think because Moiraine had a purpose behind her bending/breaking the rules...she wanted to find the Dragon Reborn...Nicola just wants to reach her full potential NOW) but all the same...

 

I think Nicola will play a big part in Egwene's taking over the Tower, and I'm curious to see what happens and what decisions she has to make because it seems like she's just going to go wherever she feels she can learn faster, which is why she ended up at the Tower in the first place.  Salidar was going too slow for her.  But I also think this can cause problems because a simple life lesson is that the reason things don't always come RIGHT NOW is because the process by which we reach our potential is essential in giving us the balance and maturity to handle that full power.  I think if Nicola reaches her potential too fast she'll get a big head about it...and we see this happen time and time again, with Nynaeve, Elayne, Rand and even Cadsuane ("she remembered being newly raised and full of her own power [paraphrase]")

 

Humility is a key for Nicola, and I hope she learns it so she can become an effective and powerful Aes Sedai.  Ariena I don't care about.  let her scrub pots for all I care.

[Hybrid]

Humility is a key for Nicola, and I hope she learns it so she can become an effective and powerful Aes Sedai.  Ariena I don't care about.  let her scrub pots for all I care.

 

:D Humility is the key for every Aes Sedai, I would say.