taking the wheel of time too far?

[eadeath]

I always thought the wheel of time was just a series of fantasy books (mind you the best ever written)... is it actually more? you guys act like its more of a religion or a fact based series. am i not reading deep enough? Or do some people just take it too far?

 

My question may seem rude or like i am looking down but i most surely am not, if this is more than just a fantasy series i would like to be enlightened.

are there hidden historic references other than the obvious names used for some characters?

 

-also, if there are those that believe there really is a wheel of time, do they base it off of an already established religion? something with reincarnation perhaps?

 

Thanks! -Steve

[bRANDan]

I can't speak for others, but I myself am just a WoT freak.

 

Not religious, not factual, just a damn good series.

 

At the same time I would like to advise anyone who plans on creating a WoT-based religion, that you, are crazy. Though I naver actually met the man, I'm sure RJ had a healthy hatred for Scientology, as all people should. Creating a WoT-based religion would have him spinning in his grave. One crazy religion based on a fictional book is quite enough for any society.

[CUBAREY]

I always thought the wheel of time was just a series of fantasy books (mind you the best ever written)... is it actually more? you guys act like its more of a religion or a fact based series. am i not reading deep enough? Or do some people just take it too far?

 

 

No not a religion. RJ created an entire Universe into which he placed his story into. RJ's Universe borrows concepts, symbols, myths and "facts" from many religions. Among the most obvious is reincarnation and circular time (from Hindu beliefs and other religions), a hero-savior born of a maiden, aspects of Arthurian Legends, Norse mythology, Native American mythology, etc., etc., etc.,  He blended this elements together so well and logically that die hard fans when debating plot lines and the "facts" of the story will analyze the question based on their "understanding" of the of the Concepts used by RJ. Thus a die-hard fans opinion as to whether something can or can't happen in the "Dream World" is based not only on the facts disclosed in the novels but on hypothesis involving what we can logically presume can happen in the Dream World. And yes many of us take it way to far sometimes. But that's why where die-hard(or fanatical) readers. People who have read the entire series multiple times (I'm starting my sixth read through) are a little obsessive and can find staggeringly obscure facts that we assert proves or at the very least supports our beliefs as how the certain things work or the intent of a character.

[RAND AL THOR]

The WOT is RJ's world (which BS has temporarily inherited, I guess). Its an epic series which deserves far more recognition than it has today. I hope that one day the worlds: Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time, echo in every corner of the planet. It's a great series and most of the members on the forum have read them repeatedly, to squeeze out every tiny bit of info. And now we are discussing what has happened and what is yet to happen. Thats all there is to it.

 

When I'm depressed, I come to the forums. Reading and posting on these forums calms me somehow. Weird huh?

[RAND AL THOR]

One more thing:

 

Every author draws info from a thousand different series. So calling any fiction book 'fact based' doesn't seem very sensible to me. Any author derives data, puts his own ideas with them, combines everything into a unique story. How well that author does this job is what determined his success.

[Guest Dreadlord]

The thing that gets me about the series as well as the usual stuff you get from a book is inspiration. I am an aspiring writer and this series is a great source of inspiration, it is so well written! RJ was a master of suspense, these are the best books Ive read. I could rant and rave for hours about this series

[Asmo]

Blood and bloody ashes, why are you flaming saying that we take the flaming Wheel of Time too far, the Light burn you? It's not like we flaming talk like the people in the flaming book or something.

 

Seriously, though. Just a series. The best book series I've ever read, but still, nothing crazy.

[Bob T Dwarf]

More than a fantasy series?  Definitely not.

 

Things can get a little heated at times for various reasons.  Unlike many here, I don't see the series as particularly well written.  Good certainly.  Great, not so much.  Having said that, a big part of the problem when discussing the series is that it has dragged on for far too long.  Many readers have had far too long to wait for succeeding installments.  Far too long to think about what has been written thus far.  And to overthink.  And, get over-invested in our own ideas about the books.

 

Even so, we all miss important bits and pieces in our readings.  We, like the characters, make false assumptions, and draw incorrect conclusions as a result.  When we see each other doing that, the discussions can take on a sort of religious fervor.  While unfortunate, that too is entirely human.

 

When reading the boards, it's probably best to keep in mind that none of us is entirely correct - no matter how certain any of us may sound.  After all, if we had gotten it totally figured out, we wouldn't still be reading the books and trying to help each other understand them better.  We'd just have considered it done and dusted and moved on to other things.

 

So, relax.  Take everything you find here with a bag or two of salt.  Read the books carefully, and draw your own conclusions.

[havoc110]

Here's what I think causes your observation (and I don't necessarily think that it's completely incorrect either).

 

WoT stands apart from other stories in that it is a story build on imperfect and incomplete information.  More than 99% of the story is told in first person, and rarely does that person (because there are MANY different PoV's) have the whole story.

 

So in say, LotR, there can be endless debates about what things SYMBOLIZE, for example we can argue whether or not Saruman represents the evils of over-industrialization.  But for the most part, the events in the story speak for themselves.  They are there, happening in front of you.

 

That is not the case in WoT.  10 people can read a scene, and because it is told from a specific character's viewpoint, you will often get varying interpretations of that scene.  And since you rarely get more than one PoV depicting the same scene, the reader is also left with incomplete information.

 

We don't know who Asmodean saw before he was killed.  We don't know what happened to Moiraine on the other side of the gateway.  We don't know what Demandred has been doing for the last 5 books.  Most of us have theories on these topics, but we still don't KNOW.  And there are hundreds, if not more, of these unclear issues.  Some are very central to the story, and some might be trivial.  But no matter how obscure, each one has stuck into the minds of a reader or two somewhere, to be brought up in forums like these. 

 

So to a casual reader coming in as a sort of a bystander to these boards, it would seem that everything is taken way too far.  The top 50 posters here probably represent 95% or more of what you read on these boards, and they are pretty fanatical.  But I don't think there's anything unhealthy going on here.  Just some spirited conversation about a story.

[Darth_Andrea]

RJ designed the WOT story to be a pre-history for our time. He took bits of religion and myth, put them in mixer put on high then poured it out for us to consume. The premise is that the events of our time are what the people in the WoT universe have as their myths and legends. And that the events in their age are our myths and legends. As Thom states in Book 4 whle on the seafolk ship talking to Elayne, "Rand Al`Thor will Be Lucky If History Remembers His Name Correctly." which is a fact of history. It's also a point of the story if you pay attention. The further away in time and space a character is from any event that takes place. The more inaccurate the information about said event they recieve. It's like a planetary version of Pass It On. Line up 60 people whisper something in the first ones ear and by the time it gets down to the end of the line it's something totaly different than what you originaly started with.

 

All that being said I myself love picking through the books, looking for the reconisable bits of mythology and religion and history. Then looking how he went about incorperating it into the world he created. RJ is about the most talented write in this aspect that I have ever or more than likely will ever see.

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]   

[eadeath]

I agree that it is the best fantasy ever written, but the question i was getting at is... not are we taking the story too far by talking about every bloody detail, (i love doing that) but are some people taking the idea too far thinking it was actually a real time and basing facts and religious ideas off of it?

 

Why i asked about hidden religious ideas, or historic events reinacted, is because, CS Lweis "the cronicals of narnia" having all sorts of hidden Christian ideas in the story. I do not know much about religions of the world, and was wondering if these books were promoting religious ideas like so many other fantasy books.

 

"Lord of the Rings" being the most famous, has had many books written about how you can find God in the lord of the rings and so on.

 

Thanks for the replies i enjoy reading your posts and ideas :)

[eadeath]

I just found this after a few days of looking,

 

Week 11 Question: I just started The Great Hunt and I find the religious and political aspects very interesting. I notice the dedication for The Great Hunt says, "They came to my aid when God walked across the water, and the true Eye of the World passed over my house." Has your own religion in any way helped to shape the book?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Only in the sense that it helped to shape my moral and ethical beliefs. My work certainly is not religious in even the sense that J.R.R. Tolkien's was, much less the work of C.S. Lewis. That inscription, by the way, referred to Hurricane Hugo striking Charleston, where I live. The word hurricane comes from the name of a god of the Caribe Indians, who believed that the storm was that god walking across the water. Anyone who has ridden out a hurricane, and I have ridden out several, can well believe that it is. And if a hurricane isn't the Eye of the World, it's as close as we will come in this world.

 

 

Answered my own question there, im very happy its not religious :D so basically the people who get religious ideas from these books are indeed taking it way too far :P

[Guest Dreadlord]

Something I have noticed on here though is that many people back up their theories of something from the books with too much info from real life. Granted some of the things in the book are VERY realistic, such as Rands development and reactions to things that happen, yet people try explaining everything that happens using information we have from real life. I am surprised people havent come up with a "real life" explanation for channeling the True Source yet.

 

I remember a while ago someone posted that they had tried to assume the Void and ended up with a headache and I laughed long and hard when I read that post.

[bjclinton]

 

Unlike many here, I don't see the series as particularly well written.  Good certainly.  Great, not so much. 

 

you, good sir, are crazy.....

 

 

[Paviel]

Something I have noticed on here though is that many people back up their theories of something from the books with too much info from real life. Granted some of the things in the book are VERY realistic, such as Rands development and reactions to things that happen, yet people try explaining everything that happens using information we have from real life. I am surprised people havent come up with a "real life" explanation for channeling the True Source yet.

 

I remember a while ago someone posted that they had tried to assume the Void and ended up with a headache and I laughed long and hard when I read that post.

 

Some real-life meditative techniques do seem to resemble the Flame and Void, or the Flower, but I don't think anybody in real life is foolish enough to try channeling like that... Or, if they are, a combination of headaches and a lack of positive results will disillusion them...

[RAND AL THOR]

Here's what I think causes your observation (and I don't necessarily think that it's completely incorrect either).

 

WoT stands apart from other stories in that it is a story build on imperfect and incomplete information.  More than 99% of the story is told in first person, and rarely does that person (because there are MANY different PoV's) have the whole story.

 

So in say, LotR, there can be endless debates about what things SYMBOLIZE, for example we can argue whether or not Saruman represents the evils of over-industrialization.  But for the most part, the events in the story speak for themselves.  They are there, happening in front of you.

 

That is not the case in WoT.  10 people can read a scene, and because it is told from a specific character's viewpoint, you will often get varying interpretations of that scene.  And since you rarely get more than one PoV depicting the same scene, the reader is also left with incomplete information.

 

We don't know who Asmodean saw before he was killed.  We don't know what happened to Moiraine on the other side of the gateway.  We don't know what Demandred has been doing for the last 5 books.  Most of us have theories on these topics, but we still don't KNOW.  And there are hundreds, if not more, of these unclear issues.  Some are very central to the story, and some might be trivial.  But no matter how obscure, each one has stuck into the minds of a reader or two somewhere, to be brought up in forums like these. 

 

So to a casual reader coming in as a sort of a bystander to these boards, it would seem that everything is taken way too far.  The top 50 posters here probably represent 95% or more of what you read on these boards, and they are pretty fanatical.  But I don't think there's anything unhealthy going on here.  Just some spirited conversation about a story.

 

This was a VERY good post laying out everything perfectly. The multiple POV aspect of the WOT gives the writer a huge amount of control over the building up of suspense while also giving us an inner viewpoint of many different characters. For one, we can at least tell who is a Darkfriend and who isnt by using their POV (most of the time anyway).

 

People basing real ideas and adopting religious ideas from WOT? That is utterly mad. And I have not seen any such thing yet. (The person who tried to form the void, I don;t think he did it to try to channel (omg) but I think he tried to meditate so). It is a fiction series. Let us enjoy it as such.

[Avery]

I tried to find the void and the flame once. I fell asleep.

 

More than 99% of the story is told in first person

 

It's written in the third person limited.

[eadeath]

i must admit i tried to form a void once, I thought there might be something to it, like meditation, or "the force"(starwars) if you will, i mean honestly i would bet everyone alive has tried one form of telepathy at least once!

 

So even i the creator of the "taking the wheel of time too far" post must admit humbly...

 

I was working at a vet hospital when we had a vicious vicious we needed to give a shot to, princess(no joke)was in a cage when i formed the void. about 30 mins after forming the flame i was in the hospital getting 6 stitches and an antibiotic injection :(

 

BUT in my defence my thinking was, the positives from the void are... Calm energy(animals can feel your fear, anxiety, anger and so on) maybe a lack of pain if i get scratched...(not) and!!! fast reflexes!!!

 

never again i say... never again!! (now im a sushi chef :D )

 

but in all seriousness, just getting religious ideas from what ive read was what had me worried.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Unlike many here, I don't see the series as particularly well written.  Good certainly.  Great, not so much

UNQUOTE

 

Ok this last time Ive been reading WoT I have been looking at it from a writers PoV to get some pointers. Trust me, it is VERY well written. RJs style is to write what the current character is seeing, what they are feeling. If that character doesnt notice something, neither does the reader. That style maximises suspense way beyond any other style I have seen. There is so much to speculate on, as well as it being a good story with great characters. The very fact that not one of the books is a spin off is enough to get RJs name up there

[Cybertrolloc]

Agree. The writing is very good, the world building is very good.

 

Plotting and pacing become a problem, what is on stage and what is background becomes a problem and too many retcons beyond the character viewing whatever doesn't understand what's really going on.

[RAND AL THOR]

If that character doesnt notice something, neither does the reader.

 

Duh! If anyone expects anything else, its pretty stupid. POV means that you follow around a particular character. How can the READER see a crow fly overhead if the CHARACTER doesnt look up? RJ's writing style is very realistic.

[bRANDan]

 

I was working at a vet hospital when we had a vicious vicious we needed to give a shot to, princess(no joke)was in a cage when i formed the void.

 

What's a vicious vicious?

 

I know what a good good is, a candy (french- bonbon), is a vicious vicious like the opposite of candy? Broccoli? You had broccoli, named princess, in a cage, and it hurt you?

 

;)

[eadeath]

wow exactly i cant believe you puzzled that out... hehe ;) i meant to say cat :P

[Corbett]

 

 

Unlike many here, I don't see the series as particularly well written.  Good certainly.  Great, not so much. 

 

Blasphemy!!! Where's my torch and pitchfork.

[DemandredFO]

We will never be able to channel like in the books but I have no doubt that humans have telepathic powers.  I mean, we only use 5% of our brains so who knows what the other 95% holds