How did I miss this so long

[Luckers]

 

Dbob, go back and read my previous post--i address the reasons why all of what occured is nessasary.

 

 

Again, you would have done well to have read the thread before posting, but ok... Cadsuane is teaching him something useful, and if you don't want to take my word for it, take that of Min's infalliable visions.

 

But if you do want to take my word for it, then yes she is... she slaps him in public, humiliates him, and treats him like an idiot... when he is behaving like and idiot. That right there is helpful--the desire to not look like an idiot is forcing him to think before he speaks and acts, and that is a massive tag on her part.

 

As for it helping his 'command'. Well for starters he doesn't have a command. He has a mission, and it helps his mission but helping him to not be a complete fool. Beyond that it doesn't really undermine him either... people expect Aes Sedai to leave others looking like fools, and Cadsuane more than most. Being spanked by her isn't particularily shameful.

 

 

Go read the thread champ. Want to comment in that way fine, but at least have the respect to address those that have commented on it already.

 

Rand is not her superior officer champ. I addressed that on the last page.

 

 

Actually there isn't buddy. And certainly not for figures leading the human race against and evil deity. Again though, that was addressed.

 

 

I did read your post, I just don't agree with you, and, well, there it is.

 

That's fine--what I was objecting too was not the disagreement but completely ignoring my comments to repeat the same old litany about Cadsuane as if its new.

 

Seriously--and moving beyong Dbob, i was only using his comment because it provided an intro... near as I can tell every one of the Cadsuane-hater comments fall down to the following comments.

 

1. Rand is the leader so she should fall in line, no questions asked.

2. She is rude and abbrasive.

3. She undermines his commands in front of others.

4. She is acting only to secure her place (or the Towers) in history.

5. She has a deep innate need to control everything.

 

Now with the Dbob situation, he and Bob T Dwarf posted such comments, and i wrote a detailed post on why they all fell short--in my opinion... and he and Bob T Dwarf posted those same comments all over again--essentially verbatim. That was on the seventh page, and ive been perusing the pages since then and its been the same thing time and again. Verbatim reiteration of the same catchphrases. If we're not going to discuss the issues than this is completely pointless.

 

The fact remains, and it is simple, Cadsuane has sworn, clearly and without dissembling, that she will act only in Rand's best interest. Since that moment she has, in every single instant, even when it has been painful for him, done that. Furthermore... and this to me is the clear deciding factor, when push comes to shove she has supported him to the hilt, without question. She saved him in Cairhein, in Far Madding. She backed him at Shadar Logoth, and through her made that a success. She backed him with the Seanchan--even though she disagreed with his decision.

 

Yes, she calls him up when she thinks he is being a fool. Yes she is rude and abbrasive. And yes, she is absolutely his single strongest supporter and greatest asset.

 

Now, if you want to discuss the details of the situations i am more than willing, but if this is going to continue to be simply a repitition of catchphrases, than i suppose that serves as a good epitaph to my position, and i bow out.

[Dbob]

 

That's fine--what I was objecting too was not the disagreement but completely ignoring my comments to repeat the same old litany about Cadsuane as if its new.

 

Luckers, y'all are saying the exact same thing also. You just agree so you cut them slack.

 

 

Now with the Dbob situation, he and Bob T Dwarf posted such comments, and i wrote a detailed post on why they all fell short--in my opinion... and he and Bob T Dwarf posted those same comments all over again--essentially verbatim. That was on the seventh page, and ive been perusing the pages since then and its been the same thing time and again. Verbatim reiteration of the same catchphrases. If we're not going to discuss the issues than this is completely pointless.

 

 

Now, if you want to discuss the details of the situations i am more than willing, but if this is going to continue to be simply a repitition of catchphrases, than i suppose that serves as a good epitaph to my position, and i bow out.

 

Frankly I’m not interested in point by point refutations of arcane nature, this isn’t theology 101, this is entertainment. We all read the same thing, you thought one thing I thought another, so what, we’re all entitled. I’ve been pretty clear from the beginning that my objection is bad characterization. No amount of justification of why her actions are “miracle most holy” addresses that point. I don’t think her <i>character</i> is believable. Ascribe whatever motives you want to her, argue yourselves into contortions of logic to shout me down, fact is, y’all think R.J. created a believable scenario. I don’t. I stated why. Listen, don’t, that’s up to you.

 

I also fail to see why this causes so many emotional conniptions. From the tone of some of the replies, you’d think I walked up and spit on the Virgin Mary. If you want to get together and create an orthodox opinion that may not be challenged so be it. I’m not going to try and argue you out of it. But in the end, why do you care if I don’t think she’s believable.

 

[Dbob]

Upon reflection, maybe that was a little bit cavalier, so I’m going to outline my issue with it, clearly, and let me say from the get go, arguments about why she has to act the way she does, or why it’s deserved, don’t address this.

 

Ask yourself this, how is a 21 year old guy, going to react to an old lady behaving in that fashion. Back here in real life, and before I get a whole bunch of <i>“but we’re not in real life”</i> arguments, let me also state that R.J. obviously didn’t mean these people to be aliens, he’s obviously writing them as human, so that test does apply.

 

Fantasy fiction requires a hefty dose of suspension of disbelief from the get go, and bluntly, Rand’s character is pushing the envelope already; there are several points upon which his actions and the stated scenario contradict each other. The author wrote the sequence with a pretty clearly implied outcome, does the characterization of all the elements involved resolve in a fashion that stretches credulity.

 

That’s it in a nutshell. I don’t think the scenario is self consistent enough to suspend disbelief.

 

Make of that what you will.

 

[Vambram]

Make of that what you will

 

Fine, I shall. Apparently, it is very obvious that you don't like how Robert Jordan has written the WOT series, and you continue to post criticism after criticism saying how such characterizations are not only unbelievable, but also just flat out poor writing. Fine, you are free to choose to have such an opinion if that is your choice.

However, myself and most of the rest of us, are happily willing to understand and recognise and also appreciate the GREATNESS of the writing in the Epic fantasy series, The Wheel of Time.

[Dbob]

Are you going to take your ball now and go home? Or perhaps you'd like to sniff at me a la Elayne Trakand and stalk off in high dudgeon.

 

Feel free to let me know so I can properly feel the sting of your scorn.

 

LOL

[Vambram]

Oh gee whiz, wasn't that such a most intelligent and well written response. LOL

Face it, Dbob, despite how well your viewpoints have already been refuted by many people over many pages, you still choose to believe what you yourself want to believe Therefore, any further discussion with you about this topic is utterly pointless and a waste of my time.

[Dbob]

Oh gee whiz, wasn't that such a most intelligent and well written response. LOL

Face it, Dbob, despite how well your viewpoints have already been refuted by many people over many pages, you still choose to believe what you yourself want to believe Therefore, any further discussion with you about this topic is utterly pointless and a waste of my time.

 

Sniff like Elayne, and stalk of in high dudgeon it is.

 

LOL. Oh come on. Have a little perspective.

[Sila Darklover]

Getting back to the original topic, I think the Perrin-Faile problems would be all be solved if Faile eloped with Narg.  She'd have a "real strong man" to push around, and Perrin would be free to take up with whoever you think would suit him better. 

 

Barring that, they're probably stuck together.  If I were Perrin I wouldn't mind...Saldaeans are gorgeous enough to take extra liberties. 

[Snowy Dawn]

One interesting remark about Cadsuane, this from an Elayne POV:

 

``Recently one of her watchers at the Swan had overheard a disturbing name, murmured and quickly shushed, as if in fear of eavesdropping. Cadsuane. Not a common name, that. And Cadsuane Melaidhrin had meshed herself closely with Rand while he was in Cairhien. Vandene did not think much of the woman, calling her opinionated and muleheaded, but Careane had almost fainted in awe at hearing her name......''

 

(This from the chapter ``A Bargain'' in <i>Crossroads of Twilight</i>, p. 309 first full para in the hardcover edition.)

 

Some of the drift of the discussion in this thread suggests a opinion of Cadsuane similar to that of Vandene. Vandene, being almost as old as Cadsuane, and also Green Ajah, would have known her before she became a legend. Perhaps other older Greens might feel the same way. Then again, the head (in the tower) of the Green Ajah, Adelorna Bastine, remarks to Egwene that she wishes Cadsuane were in the Tower: ``I think she would find you a challenge.'' (KoD, p. 516, the hardcover edition, middle of the chapter ``Honey in the Tea''.) Maybe Adelorna is not in awe of Cadsuane, but her remark suggests a respect more in line with the general rep. Cadsuane has among the Aes Sedai.

[trakand_01]

Was it not Careane who is BA? I seem to think (I've read this, I'm only on book 10) that it was she who killed Adeleas and Ispan at the Farm.

 

I suspect she more likely nearly fainted in terror at being found out by the woman than in awe at Cadsuane.

 

 

[Luckers]

Luckers, y'all are saying the exact same thing also. You just agree so you cut them slack.

 

Oh? Address these points and see how we innovate and create new comments. Certainly I've addressed yours. A distinction that is perhaps important here.

 

Frankly I’m not interested in point by point refutations of arcane nature, this isn’t theology 101, this is entertainment.

 

Arcane nature? You said those list of why you think Cadsuane is bad, and it was responded to... no one ever came close to saying 'well,, you know, dude, i think Cadsuane's just awesome... coz... like... she's so fated... you know. Dude pass me the bong.'

 

Seriously, this is the irritant in this thread for me. I have no issues with people disagreeing, but if people ignore others comments that address theirs--or disdain them as something as other than what they are--that gets my goat up. And yes the pro-Cadsuane posters have done it too, though i think to a much lesser degree--most probably because of the difference in posting in the positive about something, and in posting in the negative about something, but there it is.

 

Please remember though that my post wasn't just about you--i used your comment as a lead in, its true, but i wasn't seeking to single you out and im sorry if i did.

 

I’ve been pretty clear from the beginning that my objection is bad characterization. No amount of justification of why her actions are “miracle most holy” addresses that point. I don’t think her character is believable. Ascribe whatever motives you want to her, argue yourselves into contortions of logic to shout me down, fact is, y’all think R.J. created a believable scenario. I don’t. I stated why. Listen, don’t, that’s up to you.

 

That, right there, is about the only decent objection ive seen--or at least the only decently supported suggestion I've seen. Now, I don't agree, mind, but i still respect it.

 

I also fail to see why this causes so many emotional conniptions. From the tone of some of the replies, you’d think I walked up and spit on the Virgin Mary. If you want to get together and create an orthodox opinion that may not be challenged so be it. I’m not going to try and argue you out of it. But in the end, why do you care if I don’t think she’s believable.

 

I think it is because that it speaks to the heart of things. People identify with characters within the books, especially archetypal figures like Rand and Cadsuane. To attack them is taken as an attack on the posters themselves because their personalities resonate. *shrug*

 

 

Ask yourself this, how is a 21 year old guy, going to react to an old lady behaving in that fashion. Back here in real life, and before I get a whole bunch of “but we’re not in real life” arguments, let me also state that R.J. obviously didn’t mean these people to be aliens, he’s obviously writing them as human, so that test does apply.

 

A guy of the type Rand is... exactly as he did. I'm sorry, but Rand gesticulates because he feels he needs to. I've seen the same in real life--especially of kids who have been given too much authortiy too young--and I've seen it dealt with in much the same way.

 

It's nessasary for Rand to have that authority, but its also nessasary for Cadsuane to temper him.

[Bob T Dwarf]

As in many discussions on these boards, this has degenerated into one where belief has become "fact".

 

If you believe that Cadsuane's actions are helping Rand, those actions become right and proper.

 

Since all of the shoes have not yet dropped, Cadsuane's "goodness" and "rightness", indeed the belief that she even has the capacity to "know" what helpful behavior is in this unique situation, is a remarkable leap-of-faith. 

 

But, that is the sum total of what it is... a leap-of-faith.  Not "facts".  Not refutations.  Just opinions based on some need for Cadsuane to be "good."

 

I'd like Cadsuane to be helpful to the Light's cause, also.  Unfortunately, I see nothing in how the author has characterized her to indicate that she has rendered any "help" whatsoever.  Put Elza in Cadsuane's shoes and you get exactly the same set of actions.  And, we know what Elza's intent is.

 

Thus, I will continue to view Cadsuane with great suspicion.

[Luckers]

Since all of the shoes have not yet dropped, Cadsuane's "goodness" and "rightness", indeed the belief that she even has the capacity to "know" what helpful behavior is in this unique situation, is a remarkable leap-of-faith. 

 

But, that is the sum total of what it is... a leap-of-faith.  Not "facts".  Not refutations.  Just opinions based on some need for Cadsuane to be "good."

 

Cute, but wrong. Cadsuane saved Rand's life. Cadsuane freed Rand. Cadsuane protected Rand at the Cleansing.

 

These facts are not views to be interpreted. She did these things, end of story.

 

I'd like Cadsuane to be helpful to the Light's cause, also.  Unfortunately, I see nothing in how the author has characterized her to indicate that she has rendered any "help" whatsoever.  Put Elza in Cadsuane's shoes and you get exactly the same set of actions.  And, we know what Elza's intent is.

 

Except that Elza was compelled and Cadsuane operates of her own free will. Sorry bud, nice try.

[trakand_01]

If you look at it a certain way, Cadsuane is (belatedly) providing the one figure which Rand has never had - a mother. More a grandmother really, but she's attempting to teach him the things that Mari would have done, had she survived. Tam did his best and did a very good job but there are some things that a man simply cannot teach his son due to sharing the same opinions as his male child.

[Luckers]

I reckon RJ was right in the way he said it--she's the tought maiden aunt. Unpleasent to be around, the type the children hate going to see, but ultimately the type that teach them the most.

[trakand_01]

I agree, and I think Rand and she are going through a (significantly sped up) natural lifecycle. They started off screaming and shouting at each other, then Rand got mardy and Cadsuane got irritated, and now he's slowly coming around to seeing that perhaps 'mother knows best' and he could gain something from at least listening to her. I reckon he's around the age of 17 in terms of mother-son relationships. Still a bit mardy, but has learnt from experience.

 

And in that sense Cadsuane as 'mother' does know best. In the familiar way it means that your mother has seen and done it all before, and knows better than you because she has the gift of hindsight. It's very similar with Cadsuane - she's spent decades researching men who can channel, she HAS seen it all before.

[Dbob]

Oh? Address these points and see how we innovate and create new comments. Certainly I've addressed yours. A distinction that is perhaps important here.

 

Just to be completely fair I went back and re-read to see if I missed something. So, Right, Here's my original statement on the subject (emphasis added):

 

<i><b>We all know that Cadsuane is going to “fix” him, that’s the way the author wrote the story, whether that story line is believable is another question entirely.</b> Personally, I find her attitude and actions of a piece with every other harridan in the books. Back here in the real world I don’t know many (or really any – but I suppose there must be some out there) guys who would react positively to the way she treats Rand. The only reason she’s still around is because of Min, that doesn’t say much for her acumen or her skill.</i>

 

To date, no one has addressed the point.

 

Arcane nature? You said those list of why you think Cadsuane is bad, and it was responded to... no one ever came close to saying 'well,, you know, dude, i think Cadsuane's just awesome... coz... like... she's so fated... you know. Dude pass me the bong.'

 

I didn't say Cadsuane was "bad", or "good" I said I didn't like her, made some general comments about ideas that popped up in the process of discussion, tossed in a few quips, and stood by my original proposition. No where did I make a list, and by arcane I mean arguments like <i>men should expect to be slapped by women,</i> or the one posited above, that somehow old people being offensive inherently leads to good things. This is all supposition and conjecture. Sometimes your tough old Aunt has nothing to teach you but a universal malaise for life in general. Assuming otherwise then claiming that assumption as irrefutable proof is not logical, it's arcane - like magic. Though perhaps, I grant you I could have chosen to use a different word.

 

Seriously, this is the irritant in this thread for me. I have no issues with people disagreeing, but if people ignore others comments that address theirs--or disdain them as something as other than what they are--that gets my goat up. And yes the pro-Cadsuane posters have done it too, though i think to a much lesser degree--most probably because of the difference in posting in the positive about something, and in posting in the negative about something, but there it is.

 

Please remember though that my post wasn't just about you--i used your comment as a lead in, its true, but i wasn't seeking to single you out and im sorry if i did.

 

Thanks for the consideration, If I was offended I wouldn't still be in here.

 

I think it is because that it speaks to the heart of things. People identify with characters within the books, especially archetypal figures like Rand and Cadsuane. To attack them is taken as an attack on the posters themselves because their personalities resonate. *shrug*

 

OK. If that's the case then there can be no discussion with people like this. Just agreement.

 

A guy of the type Rand is... exactly as he did. I'm sorry, but Rand gesticulates because he feels he needs to. I've seen the same in real life--especially of kids who have been given too much authortiy too young--and I've seen it dealt with in much the same way.

 

It's nessasary for Rand to have that authority, but its also nessasary for Cadsuane to temper him.

 

This is for Luckers, anyone who is going to be offended by criticism is given fair warning – <b>DON’T READ FURTHER</b>.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this:

 

<i> but Rand gesticulates because he feels he needs to</i>

 

 

Well, suffice it to say that our personal experience with 21 year old guys differs significantly.

 

I don’t necessarily disagree that Rand needs to be reigned in for the good of everyone. He’s been getting increasingly ridiculous as the books progress.

 

So here are the specifics of my issue.

 

The author repeatedly infers that Rand is so hard that the situation necessitates someone like Cadsuane to give him his emotions back.

 

Problem – he doesn’t seem to act like he’s hard, or stone, or steel. He cares about people around him, and in general, sometimes taken to ridiculous levels. He certainly agonizes on and on about having to “use” people, He cares about the liberty, and welfare of peasants and serfs, he cares about justice and fairness, he wants to feed the starving and protect the weak, he loves three different people (which I suppose could be considered a kind of callousness if you wanted), he mourns his friends, he mourns strangers, and those are only the positive ones.

 

OK, so is it plausible that he’s really “stone” and “steel” – like the author posits?

 

Problem – if he isn’t stone, what purpose Cadsuane. If he is, what’s the definition the author is using for “Stone”, and “Steel.” Is the author meaning to say arrogant? If so, what has that got to do with a loss of emotion, arrogance <i>is</i> emotion.

 

Problem – stone or not how is he going to react when she starts her rehab campaign, and if he isn’t stone, why hasn’t she figured this out. If she has why is she still there?

 

Problem – she knows everything about men who can channel, therefore is best capable to fill this role, but he IS the dragon reborn and taveren, which she has no experience with whatsoever.

 

Problem – channeling has nothing to do with psychosis of becoming stone. What are her credentials for dealing with men who become it?

 

All in all, I think R.J. has come up with much better plot lines than this one. I think he got carried away with his fondness for pushy little old ladies.

 

For those of you who are going to be offended and read this anyway, Y'all don't have to analyze literature like this, if you want to just go with it, go for it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, as I've said before -

 

No matter what Cadsuane may believe she is teaching Rand, the only thing she is really teaching him is that it's OK to intentionally abuse others.

 

That's the way abuse plays out.  Those who are abused, as soon as they acquire sufficient power, abuse everyone they can.  And, on and on the cycle of abuse goes.  Each new abusee becoming an abuser.

 

Rand already has more than sufficient power, however you choose to define that term.  It would not be good for him to decide it was OK to start throwing that power around however he felt like at that instant.  But, that is exactly the situation that Cadsuane's behavior toward him leads to.

 

That's why I object to Cadsuane.  Her behavior is creating an abusive man who has the power to cause terrible harm.  That in no way "helps" Rand.

 

 

[Jonn]

``Her letter to Mat in Knife of Dreams.''

 

Letter to Thom, please. The letter itself says that it is important that Mat not see it until he asks about it.

 

Granted it's a letter addressed to Thom, but she was actually hoping for Mat to read it, obviously. Essentially, it's a letter to the both of them.

[Jonn]

 

Can I just say something about the whole hating of characters deal...

 

I believe that you're supposed to have mixed feelings for characters in any great book.

 

That makes them real. I've met many people from all over the place and not one of them is perfect or someone whom I can honestly say that there isn't one thing about them that bothers me.

 

That is reality.

 

There are people I love so dearly, I would risk my life for them in a heartbeat, but for a gesture I'd burn them down in admonishment.

 

These characters are supposed to have flaws. They're supposed to get on your nerves. You want to just shake them until their eyeballs fly out. Jordan shows us that in history, when regarding our heroes in that historical context, we see them without flaws, or reduced in such a way as to be a minor note. Well, he's brought these character notes out in his story, and put them up for criticism in the light.

 

How many times do we see a character POV when they think to themselves; "It isn't like this in the stories.", or, "Heroes in the great stories don't have to put up with this!"

 

It's easy to take offense towards actions in situations that you are not put in, but get a front row seat to view.

 

No one likes to hear certain thoughts that might touch on a less gentle reality:

 

George Washington was lucky. Joan of Arc was schizophrenic.

 

The Great Advisor Cadsuane, turns out she was a world class b****. The Falcon used to drive her husband The Wolf King nuts with her stupid antics.

The Dragon's three wives actually got along quite well.

 

People are not just the outcome of their work. There are details to their personalities. Quirks. The dearest characters in a story, for me, have to be real. You love them despite their faults, and sometimes because of their faults. Now there are some, that I just don't like and totally disagree with, but I can still accept their role in the story.

 

Some people object to characters who do things that are unpredictable, and unacceptable to their own personal sensibilities. I figure of course people want to identify with characters, but if there are some unidentifiable things about them, it's hard to get behind them. Hey, that's life.

 

Consider the possibility that maybe you're not meant to like them, but for their role in the story, perhaps you should consider their right to exist. Then maybe you can come to grips with what the author is trying to tell you using them as canvas.

 

This story is immense and what I like about it is that Jordan uses archetypes, but he refuses to use caricatures.

 

Birgitte Silverbow was a foul-mouthed drunk. Gaidal Caine was ugly as sin. Is that all there was to them? Course not.

 

Nobody is absolutely anything.

[bRANDan]

and by arcane I mean arguments like men should expect to be slapped by women,

 

My bad, that was what I said, it was only after I had written it that I realized how poorly I had worded it. I only have a limited time to post during my breaks. But I think if you read my subsequent posts you can get the gist of what I mean.

 

That's the way abuse plays out.  Those who are abused, as soon as they acquire sufficient power, abuse everyone they can.  And, on and on the cycle of abuse goes.  Each new abusee becoming an abuser.

 

This I have to disagree with. Maybe you have had different experiences, but in my experience once you teach a bully or an overly aggressive person that you are not going to take it and fight back they learn their lesson. That of course all hinges on the fact that you win those fights. I was the enforcer in my school, I successfully taught no less than three bullies that that kind of behavior will not be tolerated, I guess that is why I like Cadsuane so much, her tactics mirror tactics I have used myself.

[Dbob]

and by arcane I mean arguments like men should expect to be slapped by women,

 

My bad, that was what I said, it was only after I had written it that I realized how poorly I had worded it. I only have a limited time to post during my breaks. But I think if you read my subsequent posts you can get the gist of what I mean.

 

Yeah, that wasn't really aimed at you, I kinda got that you meant something else from the start. The point was then picked up by someone else, without any caveat, which was what I was refering to.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Which only means that you were a bigger bully than those three.

 

That's the whole problem with the Superman myth.  The people you "saved" learned nothing about how to stand-up for themselves.  All they learned was how to stand around and look helpless until somebody "saved" them.

 

If you'd stood behind the "victims" and helped them find a way to defend themselves, you would have accomplished something meaningful.  By doing what you did, you only helped them buy-into their own victimhood.

[Dbob]

 

Can I just say something about the whole hating of characters deal...

 

I believe that you're supposed to have mixed feelings for characters in any great book.

 

<i>Warning Criticism – if you are going to be offended - move on. </i>

 

Having mixed feelings about a character is one thing, hating the character even, I hate Sorilea pretty much. But I don’t see her as superfluous.

 

Why is Caddy even there? Even if you accept the premise that he’s stone, did the author really need to introduce a whole new character to fix him?

 

If Rand needs to be taught to care again, what about Tam? As a 21 year old guy, I would have been far more likely to listen to my father and take criticism from him without resentment, than I would dealing with some strange, offensive, old lady – even setting aside the fact that she belongs to a group that kidnapped and tortured me.

 

It would have made a lot more sense to have Tam, or hell, even Egwene or Nyn play that role.

 

I thought that was where he was going with it, until Cadsuane showed up.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Jonn -

 

I agree.  Not every character is meant to be lovable.

 

My argument with the Cadsuane defenders stems from their insistence that she must be viewed as good, and pure and lovable.  Their justification for that argument is that they see her as good and pure and lovable.

 

They want her to be good, so therefore she is good.  And, her methods are the right methods - the only methods.  Period.  End of discussion.

 

Sorry, but as Dbob and I are trying to point out, any clear, objective reading of her characterization reveals that she is none of those things.  Her methods are not just flawed, but counterproductive to her stated objective.  There are a myriad of other ways for her to accomplish her stated goals.  Jordan was ( presumably ) smart enough to know that.  And, also smart enough to have her employ any of those other methods if his purpose had been to portray her as "good and pure;"  her methods as "just and necessary."

 

Since he chose to portray her as he did, it might be wise to consider that he did so because her effect may not be what she ( or we ) would like it to be.

 

It may also be that he simply missed the boat as far as any realistic outcome from her actions goes.