Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

How did I miss this so long


Guire

Recommended Posts

bRANDon,

It's a good point and I agree with you over all but the maidens were a little different.

 

Rand dishonored them by breaking his promise to let them dance the spears so they whipped his ass as they would any first brother who dishonored them.

 

However, it was to teach hiim a lesson, the point of which we can be fairly certain he got.

 

I wonder what will happen when he encounters Nandera after running off a second time.  He had ample time to summon them for the meeting with the Seanchan and didn't bother.  Didn't she mention using a strap.  Although, in his defense, the numbers agreeed upon were set by the Seanchan so maybe she'll buy that as an excuse.

 

dBob's Gran is correct.  

 

If a woman slaps me for any but the best of reasons she better be prepared to find out exactly how tough she is.

 

Faile though she could put her hand to Perrin's face and got a well deserved spanking for her trouble.

 

It's a little different with Rand and Caddy.  Min said it best.  Think of her as a no nonsense Aunt.  If Rand deserves a cuff alongside the ear for being a lout, well... he was warned in advance.

 

Let's look at it from another point of view.  Would anyone strike their own Grandmother.  If, even as an adult, you were acting up and she swatted you alongside the head and told you to mind your manners, would you throw a tantrum and lash out or... mind your damn manners.  I didn't even like to smoke in front of my Gran until I was in my 20's.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 206
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I think Cadusane expects Rand to eventually attempt to get back at her, which obviously will fail misreably.

 

Oh I wasn’t making a comment on the books, just that little gem of an anachronism. The truly ironic thing about it is that when men were running around salving their collective conscience with tripe like that; it was completely legal to beat your wife.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh I wasn’t making a comment on the books, just that little gem of an anachronism. The truly ironic thing about it is that when men were running around salving their collective conscience with tripe like that; it was completely legal to beat your wife.

 

Well, I am such a boring git that I stick to the situation laid out in the books here. For starters, we are not talking about a married couple ;D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

dBob's Gran is correct. 

 

If a woman slaps me for any but the best of reasons she better be prepared to find out exactly how tough she is.

 

aevogt-Don't get me wrong I'm not saying a woman should be allowed to beat a man senseless and he has to put up with it just cause she's a woman. I'm saying that a woman has leeway, because they are generally smaller. Obviously if you are some 140lb lightweight and the girl is 180lb, the rule doesn't apply, as she could whip your butt. If a guy hits me, he'll get back much worse than he gave no matter the reason. If a woman hits me, she'll be finding out just how strong I am unless she has a reason. Cads has had good reasons, IMO.

 

You've gotta be kidding here. That's just ridiculous.

 

Dbob- I'm not sure what you mean by ridiculous. If I was being an asshole to a girl and she slapped me my first thought would be "ooh.. yeah I was kind of being an asshole", not "oh, she's dead" and proceed to kick the crap out of her. My point was that Rand deserves these slaps, and if Rand can't handle a slap now and then he's a wuss, plain and simple. Each slap Cads has given him has been for either his arrogance, rudeness, or whatever.

 

He still thinks that he can do whatever he wants, we see that with the Sea Folk how he has no regard for the Bargain he made with them, also with his responsibilities with the Aiel Maidens and their honor. Point is he does whatever he wants and believes that whatever he does will help the Light win TG, simply because he's the Dragon Reborn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm saying that a woman has leeway, because they are generally smaller.

 

Dbob- I'm not sure what you mean by ridiculous. If I was being an asshole to a girl and she slapped me my first thought would be "ooh.. yeah I was kind of being an asshole", not "oh, she's dead" and proceed to kick the crap out of her.

 

I have to disagree with this, history has pretty much proven that assholes who actually push other people to the point of violence, whether self defense or not, rarely have the emotional awareness necessary to say "OK, I deserved that."

 

Which brings us to the problem of equality, you've stated that if one of your male friends slapped you, the response would more severe than the slap (wouldn’t you then be in the wrong for exerting greater force). If women are equal, why are they exempted from the consequences of their actions? Are they so fragile that they must be perforce protected from their own frailty? All of us guys, at least where I grew up learned not to pick a fight with someone who’ll kick your ass.

 

Conversely, you don’t have to respond with overwhelming force. So if license for violence is in the strength of the act. Why not run around teaching women lessons by slapping them? You don’t have to do any serious damage.

 

If license for violence is strictly a size thing, why aren’t short men off limits and large women fair game?

 

It’s a double standard based on faulty chauvinistic assumptions. Just because a woman is smaller than you doesn’t mean she can’t hurt you, nor does that somehow exempt her from the consequences of her actions. If she wants to pick a fight, so be it. Maybe she’ll win, maybe she’ll be more careful next time.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I completely disagree with Dbob. Perhaps, my friend, you would need to be raised up in the deep South, or some other area of the country where this kind of behavior by girls and women towards the assholes or just plain immature behavior of men is indeed acceptable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I completely disagree with Dbob. Perhaps, my friend, you would need to be raised up in the deep South, or some other area of the country where this kind of behavior by girls and women towards the assholes or just plain immature behavior of men is indeed acceptable.

 

Oh Please, spare me the magnolia and the moonbeams. I don't know anywhere in the south where it's considered proper behavior for women to go around slapping people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All I'm seeing from the Cadsuane supporters is a whole lot of sexist BS.

 

In the last analysis, this is a military situation and Cadsuane is just one more soldier in the command.  Every human being on the planet just got drafted whether they wanted to or not.  It is ( and has been since the series started ), You're in the Army, now.

 

She gets no slack for her gender.  She gets no slack for her age.  She gets no slack for her - so-called - experience.  She's just one more foot soldier.  Period.

 

Whether he wants it or not ( and he doesn't ).  Rand is the Commander-in-Chief until the battle has been fought to conclusion.

 

Soldiers don't get to slap the CiC.  For any reason.  Ever.

 

And, as Patton's little mistake in Italy demonstrated, the General doesn't get to slap a soldier, either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All I'm seeing from the Cadsuane supporters is a whole lot of sexist BS.
All I'm seeing from the Cadsuane haters is deluded illogical attempts to justify their hatred of her. I'd be OK if they just said they didn't like her, but all this BS "we have good reason to dislike her, she's horrid" is just...weak.

 

She's just one more foot soldier.  Period.
Wrong. She is Rand's advisor. Full stop.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

All the attempts to defend her because she's either:

 

1.  Old.

2.  Experienced.

3.  Female.

 

Are what is weak.

 

Reverse the roles.  Make Rand female and make Cadsuane male.  Actions remain constant.  Now, justify Cadsuane's actions.

Female Rand was behaving like a child and a tyrant. Male Cadsuane came along and saw that sitting down for a nice cup of tea and a chat probably wouldn't solve things. Male Cadsuane agrees to be female Rand's advisor, on the condition (among others) that she watch her manners around him. Whenever she failed to, Cadsuane took corrective action. Male Cadsuane treated female Rand like a child whenever she behaved as such. Improvements were seen in her behaviour - fewer tantrums, for example. Cadsuane's actions are justifiable because they work, and are no more harmful than she feels is necessary. She has a lot of experience, and that is important. That she is female and Rand is male or that she is old and he is young are neither here nor there. The methods work, they are not needlessly cruel. What is the problem (besides Rand)? Cadsuane's actions are justifiable because with Rand becoming increasingly isolated emotionally, increasingly irrational, she steps up and gives him good advice, corrects his behaviour. Attempts to justify her actions focus first and foremost on her actions working. I'll keep saying it until it seeps in. Rand planned for the Cleansing to be just him and Nynaeve, channeling huge amounts of the Power, like a beacon that anyone can sense - and Cadsuane made him take along her and the others, thus saving his life. Rand's plan was stupid and would have got him killed, she improved the plan. His plan in Far Madding got him locked up. She got him out. He starts throwing a tantrum in KOD and she brings him to his senses. I really can't see what rational reason one could have for disliking her. Now if you had just said "I hate her just because" or "she is nasty to Rand, so I don't like her", I would understand. But whenever people start trying to act as if there is a good, rational reason to dislike her it always seems like a dishonest and illogical attempt to justify that just because dislike.

 

Now, one more time: What Cadsuane does is alright because it works, it is not needlessly harsh and what was happening before was not working.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

size=15pt]What Cadsuane does is alright because it works, it is not needlessly harsh and what was happening before was not working.[/size]

 

Well there's a curious bit of philosophy for you.

 

Well, if you need quick cash, stealing definitely works, which of course justifies theft!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dbob, Bob T Dwarf- You are oversimplifying things. For instance:

 

Male=Female, not true, equality has its limits. Can the majority of females get a job hauling joists all day. No they cannot physically do it. That is not sexist or chauvanist. We each have our own advantages and disadvantages.

 

Cads=soldier, nope. You seem to be saying that because Rand is the DR that everyone else who fights for the Light is his subordinate. Nowhere in the books does it state, or imply, he's the Light's general. He's the Light's Champion, just an influential and powerful soldier.

 

Experience is a poor defence? You are right, if I ever need surgery I'll ask for the most inexperienced surgeon they can find. Hopefully they'll find someone who's just applied to university. If you want something done right, then no experience is the best kind of experience.

 

Reverse the roles.  Make Rand female and make Cadsuane male.  Actions remain constant.  Now, justify Cadsuane's actions.

 

Wouldn't happen. If the sexes were reversed, actions would not remain constant. Spankings would be substituted for slaps. Slaps, a woman can do, spanking she cannot, this is the whole thing about male/female advantages and disadvantages again. I fail to seee how you see Cads's slaps as inappropriate, if the sexes were reversed I'm sure you would have no problem with male Cads administering spankings.

 

As for the rest I agree with Mr Ares.

 

EDIT:

Well, if you need quick cash, stealing definitely works, which of course justifies theft!

 

Hahaha, you're right that's exactly the same as what Cads is doing. That was not philosophy, that was a statement about Cads' effectiveness. You could say "Well there's a curious bit of philosophy for you." after everything someone says, it doesn't mean anything.

Dbob-" if you need quick cash, stealing definitely works"

ME-"Well there's a curious bit of philosophy for you" 

See how I turned that around.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please, I assume you’re smart enough to spot an analogy when you see one. That whole end justifies the means argument is as old as time. It can be applied to justify anything or nothing.

 

Seems to me that some of you Pro-Cads people are running about in high dudgeon over anyone daring to dislike her, and if you have to stoop to tired social anachronisms and shoddy philosophy to justify her, well, so be it.

 

I don’t find her a believable character or her actions plausible. There it is, you’re not going to convince me otherwise. Move on.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please, I assume you’re smart enough to spot an analogy when you see one.

 

I know it was an analogy, it was a poor one. The example I wrote was supposed to highlight this.

 

That whole end justifies the means argument is as old as time. It can be applied to justify anything or nothing.

 

Mr Ares didn't say that or even refer to that old catechism. He is referring to her actions, they are working, they are not too harsh, anything less would not work. Besides that we know her goal is a good one, so how could what Mr Ares said be used to justify theft?

 

There it is, you’re not going to convince me otherwise

 

Fair enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

The only Aes Sedai who figured out how to deal with Rand was Moiraine, and she did it by realizing that he was going to pay the price, that he had to come to terms with that himself, and she turned herself into a support, not a combative obstacle – instead, giving him the benefit of her experience to do what he needed to do. His attitude towards her shifted dramatically afterwards. Why, because first off she promised to help him not the W.T. and gave him the promises he needed to trust her, second because I think she finally figured out that her plans were not the creator’s plans.

 

Cadsuane is still firmly in the “I know all” camp.

 

 

This is why I have so much respect for the Moiraine character. There were times when she was a pain, but in the end she seemed to realize that for all her plans and gambits, the outcome of all things are so precarious and unpredictable, these mechanisms of control are all an illusion.

 

No one is in control of anything. Not even Rand. Not even her.

 

Moiraine resolved herself to do what she could with all the conviction in her heart, despite the uncertain outcome.

 

Her letter to Mat in Knife of Dreams.

 

it's almost casual how she discusses dying or being captive for the rest of her life with the Eelfinn. She just knew that she had to make a choice and she made it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't like Cadsuane's position because the only reason Rand puts up with her crap is because of Min's viewing.

I hate Min's role in this because she can't even explain, nor does she understand how or why Rand needs Cadsuane!

 

For all we know Rand needed Cadsuane to bail him out of Far Madding and to help defend him during the Cleansing.

Hmmm...I guess those are pretty important things right there...actually.

 

Well, it's not like she heads a group of Aes Sedai that...helped to...defend the farm house in KOD...

 

Well, she shouldn't be slapping Rand and stuff, making him control himself...and whatnot.

 

Well, she shouldn't undermine him front of people, because that would make them think that someone could get through to him and can disagree with him and not get killed! I mean, the Aes Sedai all think he's a wild madman out to destroy the world. He must be controlled. What would they think if they heard that Cadsuane seems to...have some control over him...and treats her with respect.

 

Now that I think about it, I guess Rand does pretty much need Cadsuane.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jonn, Not true.  Moraine simply changed her tactics when it became apparent that she was no longer effectively controlling Rand.

 

She admitted it out of her own mouth "I remembered how to control Saidar"

 

Mat comments on it.  "He wondered if Rand realized he was giving her everything she asked for."

 

She was still trying to control Rand and guide him footsteps to her direction.

 

Re read Winter's Heart. 

 

Cadsuane is concerned with two things and only two things.

 

Teaching Rand to laugh again so his voctory will not be as black as his deafeat and making sure he lives to see Tarmon Gaidon.

 

"Verin, he can do whatever his heart desires as long as he lives to reach Tarmon Gaidon and as long as I can be at his side long enough to make him learn how to laugh again, and cry"

 

That's pretty telling.  Her methods are the result of the mistakes of those who came before her.

 

Rand was manipulated and badgered, kidnapped and mistreated, to you name it, all at the hands of Aes Sedai.  Cadsuane has to set herself apart from all those other women and the only way to do it is to treat him as she would treat any other man who can channel, albeit, without the end result.  This forces Rand to open up a little and trust her, trust that he needs as much as she does.  Become a ltiie less stoney.  A little more supple. 

 

In KoD Rand states the "If I could make them obey I would"  The saviour of the world has now embraced facism.  That's pretty dark.  If he wins TG, he's now the master of the world and further, all the world's rulers have been forced to obey him for so long, it probably become routine.  What about TG changes that.  Are we expected to believe that Rand is just going to step aside, if he wins, because he says he will.  Ridiculous and completely unrealistic.  No one gives up power intentionally.  We may assume that he will by reading between the lines, but a High Lord of Tear who has seen his power significantly reduced won't even try to believe it.

 

  I'll force everyone do do what I think is best, even though I'm 20 years old and was herding sheep two years ago, I must know better than anyone else because I'm the DR.  Well, being the DR does not confer infallability, as some of the "mishaps" Rand has committed will attest to.  Rand has no trouble listening to the advice of Clan Chiefs, Lord Dobraine, or Ogier Elders.  He simply can't trust Aes Sedai despite the evidence that there are some who only want to help him.  He has become blind, intentionally so, to anything related to female channelers.

 

Understandably so to be sure, but he must be brought around, back to the center, from his current position on the extremes.  That is what Cadsuane wants to do.  By slapping his face, she is trying to wake him up.  No one else, with the possible exception of the Amys/Sorilea tag team, has even a remote chance of doing so.  Rand needs to once again see himself as a human with a job to do, not the DR.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jonn, Not true.  Moraine simply changed her tactics when it became apparent that she was no longer effectively controlling Rand.

 

She admitted it out of her own mouth "I remembered how to control Saidar"

 

Mat comments on it.  "He wondered if Rand realized he was giving her everything she asked for."

 

She was still trying to control Rand and guide him footsteps to her direction.

 

Re read Winter's Heart. 

 

 

I have to disagree with you about Moiraine a bit.

 

She changed after she went through the Rings of Rhuidean in The Shadow Rising. This was the turning point for her with how she approached Rand.

 

Her approach was to control Rand by letting him make his own decisions. This is pretty plain in her letter from The Fires of Heaven.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jonn is right, but doesn't take it far enough.  Moiraine realized that her time with Rand was to be very short, and that she had to do whatever it took to a)teach him as much about political relations as possible, and b) arrange events to bring Lanfear, Moirane, and Rand together at the dock at the right time.  I don't think she changed her methods out of concern for Rand, just out of concern for preparing him for TG.  It probably irked her that it worked so well; the whole procedure certainly irked Lan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I completely disagree with Dbob. Perhaps, my friend, you would need to be raised up in the deep South, or some other area of the country where this kind of behavior by girls and women towards the assholes or just plain immature behavior of men is indeed acceptable.

 

Oh Please, spare me the magnolia and the moonbeams. I don't know anywhere in the south where it's considered proper behavior for women to go around slapping people.

 

On the contrary, my friend. I know of many places in the South where its alright for a woman to slap a man, if the man did or said something worthy enough to be slapped by the woman.

 

As for the rest of y'all whom got a problem with Cadsuane, and the rest of the general culture of the WOT books with the way women and  men interact with one another,... i got only two things to say to y'all. 1) Just deal with it, because that is the way that James Oliver Rigney wrote these novels with the cultures and the peoples in them. So, just accept it, and deal with it, and please as we say in the South, "Just quit yer bellyachin'."

2) If you can't deal with it, then please understand that Harriet is James' wife, and also the editor of the books. I am sure most of y'all understand that. So, if a great southern lady like Harriet has no problems with what RJ wrote, then why in the name of the Light do some of y'all do?????

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm just finisheing WH and something else occurs to me.

 

Rand is frantic for Cadsuane to become his advisor, to the point that he meets all her demands.  He does not, however, agree to do what she says.  Only to listen to his advice.  He is freantic to attract her to him, while she apparently ignores him on the strength of his trust for Min's viewings. 

 

Now let's remember, Cadsuane was born in Far Madding herself, a place that makes the Altaran women's attitudes towards men practically warm and fuzzy.  The Far Madding women are basically the WOT versions of Nicolas Chauvin.  An inkeeper is even described as "not paying attention to what a man would do."  A successful man in Far Madding is one whose wife can afford to get him a carriage, or deck him out with a jeweled hair clip.  Men cannot do many things in Far Madding society because they are, that's right, second class citizens.

 

Now, the Aes Sedai is the same woman who took the oaths, regardless of how long ago it was.  Cadsuane, due to her upbringing, just as Verin, sees ALL men as boys.  If you take all this in the context of the story, it's exactly as RJ intended it to be.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm just finisheing WH and something else occurs to me.

 

Rand is frantic for Cadsuane to become his advisor, to the point that he meets all her demands.  He does not, however, agree to do what she says.  Only to listen to his advice.  He is freantic to attract her to him, while she apparently ignores him on the strength of his trust for Min's viewings. 

 

Now let's remember, Cadsuane was born in Far Madding herself, a place that makes the Altaran women's attitudes towards men practically warm and fuzzy.  The Far Madding women are basically the WOT versions of Nicolas Chauvin.  An inkeeper is even described as "not paying attention to what a man would do."  A successful man in Far Madding is one whose wife can afford to get him a carriage, or deck him out with a jeweled hair clip.  Men cannot do many things in Far Madding society because they are, that's right, second class citizens.

 

Now, the Aes Sedai is the same woman who took the oaths, regardless of how long ago it was.  Cadsuane, due to her upbringing, just as Verin, sees ALL men as boys.  If you take all this in the context of the story, it's exactly as RJ intended it to be.

 

 

 

Agreed. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So Jonn is saying Rand needs Cadsuane, I'm saying he needs her, bRANDan is agreeing with me...if it weren't for the fact that my erstwhile opponents were Bob T Dwarf and a mortal who says that he can't be convinced of opposing viewpoint (not by reasoned argument, or evidence, or anything...) I might almost think that I was on the wrong side here. That said, Cadsuane's actions speak for themselves. They are working. I don't see what other approach is likely to (she needs to get his attention, force him to listen). If the price that must be payed is a few slaps...well, if the fate of the world is in the hands of someone who can't deal with a few slaps, the world is worse off than it would be if I was the Dragon. It's not like she was being any harder with him than she needed to be. She can't see a way to help without hurting, so she decides to hurt him as little as possible. Of course, one important distinction between this and Dbob's stealing example is that Cadsuane's actions were and are selfless in this regard - she is doing what she is doing to save the world. What benefit does she get? A last bit of excitement? OK, but that is far from her main motivation. Making sure Rand wins and that he is not a tyrant are her main motivations. So would the stealing be primarily selfless in motivation? Would it be the only course of action likely to work, or would it be the course of action likely to result in the least harm being caused?

 

I don’t find her a believable character or her actions plausible. There it is, you’re not going to convince me otherwise. Move on.
I'm still not seeing what is unbelievable about her character or implausible about her actions. Old ladies have no desire to save the world where you're from? Vambram already points out that he knows of places where women slap men when it is deserved (and Rand does deserve it), I knew women who were willing to do that (although they generally learned quite quickly why it was a bad idea to slap me). I'm not even trying to change your viewpoint here, I just don't see what is unbelievable or implausible about her. Maybe it's just that I have quite a lot of life experience....
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...