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How did I miss this so long


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I am on my 12th or so reread of the series.  I am almost finished with TDR and I had my "doh" moment.  All these years I have been trying to figure out who the Eagle was to go along with Faile on Perrin's shoulder. I guess years ago I just got fixated that it would be another woman.  I thought Berrin for awhile or Tenobia to cement his broken crown prophecy. 

 

Then it occurs to me that the eagle is Manatheran.  I kept wondering why RJ always kept mentioning the dang flag, other than his tendency to repeat descriptions.  Someone please tell me this is correct.

 

Also why do so many people on these boards just loathe Faile.  Some of her story lines have been far from my favorite but she is definately in my top three female good guys.  I guess I am a bit biased.  If my wife was dropped into Randland she would probably be Faile.  What is so irritating about her?

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The vision is of a Hawk and a Flacon, not an Eagle, and they represent Berelain and Faile.

 

A falcon and a hawk, perching on your shoulders. Both female, I think.

 

                                      -Min, The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 6

 

And honestly it's not hard to fina a billion threads about most people's hatred of Faile. Personally, I'm in the minority and love her to death.  ;D

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Guest Dreadlord

Also, doesn't Mat have a raven on each shoulder? Its obvious what that refers to though-him becoming Prince of Ravens. "The fox that makes the ravens fly," and all that.

 

As for Faile...do I need to say anything?

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Wow so my "doh" moment was really off.  Hehe lack of sleep is always good for some amusement at your own expense.  So the general consensus is that Berelain is in fact the hawk from Min's viewings?  How will this play out though. Will Perrin have a polygymous marriage like Rand? Or is Berelain going to just be an advisor/friend/henchman of Perrins as he begins lining up his new kingdom behind him. Also I was thinking Berelain was destined for a man in white.  Galad? Someone taken Gaishan?

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I believe in Min's viewing that the Falcon had a leash. The Hawk is just there fighting and making trouble but the falcon has the control...which you can tell this to be true with the extent Perrin goes to get her back.

 

Why do I dispise Faile? Her methods. She expects some one who knows nothing about her, the land she comes from, and the way her people do things to automatically know why she is angry. The first time she said "If you don't know I'm not going to tell you" was the exact moment I decided she was a worthless lump of human. No person has a right to say that to another. If you wife is emotionally abusive and as forceful as Faile I kinda feel bad for you man.

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Guest Dreadlord

Personally I want Faile AND Perrin to die. Faile does NOTHING to advance the story other than be captured by the Shaido, she is pointless, she needs to die soon

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Brooke don't feel bad.  I probably have one of the best marriages of any one that I know. I have been married almost 15 years. I have 4 kids and one more on the way.  I am deeply in love with my wife and she with me.  She is definately forceful and cut in the Faile mode but once I got that all figured out it has been smooth sailing since. It is much more fun being in love with a lion than a lamb.  Kind of keeps things from getting dull. ;)

 

 

Again I hear lots of the Faile must die but I haven't really heard exactly why. I think I am going to have to go back and just reread the Faile sections. Maybe I have just gotten so used to teh character that I am missing some things.

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The thing to understand and remember about Faile is that she is from a ferocious and feisty race. The women go with their husbands to battle, and to be seen as weaker than your husband is a humiliation to them - which is why Faile gets angry when Perrin doesnt argue with her, because she sees it as him thinking "I can't argue with a woman", as though she's not as strong as him.

 

For Saldean women, if your husband is strong, powerful and almost overpowering, that reflects on you in a positive light - you are the woman that handles this great beast of a man, and can weather out an argument with him where lesser men (and women) cower and back away.

 

I think that for me, the dislike of her comes from the disregard that she pays to Rand, Mat, everyone except Perrin. But we see this in Deira too; she is slashed badly by two intruders to their tent but she tells the women who rush in to go after the men, to catch them, rather than seeing to her wound which could potentially have proven fatal - bashere describes blood flowing down her arm and dripping from her fingers.

 

Faile would definitely turn her back on everything, I believe she would turn to the dark, if she believed it would help Perrin, and in turn, help her.

 

She's not trustworthy, to my eye - even Perrin can't trust her to do what he's asked and he knows this. SHE knows this, and that makes her a slippery character for me.

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Again I hear lots of the Faile must die but I haven't really heard exactly why. I think I am going to have to go back and just reread the Faile sections. Maybe I have just gotten so used to teh character that I am missing some things.

 

Well, for one thing, other than her lack of ability to communicate effectively with her husband, she is manipulative. She has sunk so low as manipulating Loial! Loial! Sweet and innocent Loial! If she chooses to deceive and manipulate her husband and he puts up with it so be it, but my distaste is for almost all the women in this series. Any woman who thinks herself better, or knows better, than every man around her. They all need to just shut up and listen every once in a while. Faile is just one that grates on me because she got into so much trouble that we had to read about for so many books and it was all due to her own stupidity and pig headedness (I don't know if that's a word but I'm sticking to it). The only time I have ever remotely felt bad for her was when Perrin killed the Aiel that had helped save her from a building right before the battle took place between Perrin's group and the Aiel group. If she would have said anything about that I would have been completely disgusted with her.

 

Even from the beginning she has tried to force Perrin into what she wanted, or into selfish acts instead of what was good for the world and what needed to be done to help Rand. This is something Perrin struggles with on his own, he doesn't need her to help in that struggle. He can do better.

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Sadly, to me, the women of the series in general, and Faile in particular are one place where Jordan failed miserably in this series.  His intent seems to have been to portray strong, self-reliant women.  Instead he has given us weak, frightened, shrews.

 

One who is confident of her abilities has neither the need nor the desire to manipulate or dominate others.  Almost every woman we meet here seems to do her best to be domineering.  That's a posture that springs from a sense of weakness and lack of control.

 

Sad, really.  So many of the female characters, and Faile in particular, had the potential to be both powerful and positive forces, yet none have become so.

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The theme of a matriarchal society runs strong in the series, and I have often wondered where it came from. I wonder whether it is meant to be a contrast to the women who are NOT present; neither Rand's biological nor adoptive mother.

 

The main rulers we have relationships with are female - Morgase, Tylin, Berelain, Tenobia, Siuan / Elaida.

 

I wonder if it was meant to balance the fact that the three 'main' characters are Male (Rand, Mat, Perrin, and many of the forsaken).

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Dunno, really.  It may just be a gross overextension of Jordan's whole, "How would the world be viewed differently if women occupied the places in the hierarchy that men have traditionally occupied in our world."

 

The answer he seems to have given us is, "Behavior is constant.  Nothing changes but the gender of those who behave most foolishly."

 

To me, his portrayal of women in this series doesn't just diminish them, it diminishes all of the men as well.  After all, they keep putting up with what these women are dishing out.

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Wow so my "doh" moment was really off.  Hehe lack of sleep is always good for some amusement at your own expense.  So the general consensus is that Berelain is in fact the hawk from Min's viewings?  How will this play out though. Will Perrin have a polygymous marriage like Rand? Or is Berelain going to just be an advisor/friend/henchman of Perrins as he begins lining up his new kingdom behind him. Also I was thinking Berelain was destined for a man in white.  Galad? Someone taken Gaishan?

 

Actually, I noticed something in my last read through.  In PoD Egwene has a dream of "A golden female hawk touches her and they are tied together"  I think this ties Berelain and Egwene together, somehow.  Maybe Berelain's heritage as a descendent of AH will give her standing with the Seanchan. 

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    All of the debate going on about all these characters being bad/good (and I love it all). I think what RJ is trying to do is get a character that is going to effect the change needed in the main characters Rand, Mat and Perrin for them to accomplish the actions or deeds that they were brought into the pattern for. I'm not saying that everything has been for the best and sometimes you need to hate certain characters for a while, but it might turn into something really good, or not. An example that I can come up with and for you J.K. Rowling haters, I apologize, but look at Snape in Book 7 of Harry Potter.

 

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Guest Dreadlord

RJ never failed. Faile is the only woman I hate, I'm not too keen on Min, but the rest are ok for me. Nynaeve is funny and she develops more than the others I think. Elayne annoys me abit sometimes but she is ok, Avhienda is my favorite woman.

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RJ never failed. Faile is the only woman I hate, I'm not too keen on Min, but the rest are ok for me. Nynaeve is funny and she develops more than the others I think. Elayne annoys me abit sometimes but she is ok, Avhienda is my favorite woman.

 

Once you realise that it's all a front with Nynaeve and that actually she's s$!t scared of everything and everyone, you can't help but soften up towards her.

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Well, the bad behavior ( for want of a better all-inclusive term ) that all of the women ( with the exception of Cadsuane ) display is just a front to cover their insecurity.

 

That's my gripe.  With the exception of Cads and Moiraine, there isn't one woman in the whole series who doesn't spend most of her time posing and posturing to hide how weak and vaporish she feels about everyone and everything.

 

Cads just purely enjoys being a pain.  For that I truly hate her.

 

But, Faile is just a total waste of ink.  I'm with Dreadlord where she's concerned.

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