How did I miss this so long

[Vambram]

W/e Bob.

[Razor]

In PoD Egwene has a dream of "A golden female hawk touches her and they are tied together"[/quotI think this means as Berelain is a negotiator she will be able to make peace between Egwene, Rand, Galad and Perin.

[Bob T Dwarf]

hmmmmm...

 

Might be.  If so, let's hope she ropes Gawyn in as well.  Last time he saw Rand he was vowing to kill him.

[Luckers]

Cadsuane is Aes Sedai to her core.  Her priority is to assure the Tower's preeminence in all things.  Her priority is that it be seen and acknowledged that an Aes Sedai is pulling the Dragon Reborn's strings.

 

We actually know that to be absolutely and catagorically wrong. How? Simple, she said it clearly, with no dissessembling, so by the First Oath... sorry.

 

The imperative here is for the Dragon Reborn to win TG ( as much as anything resembling a "win" is possible ), and let the chips fall where they may.

 

Contrary to being any help, she is a direct hindrance in accomplishing the imperative.  And it's precisely because she will not be seen to submit in any way.  Ever.  No matter the cost.

 

Except its not that simple. Rand is not a gun that can be trained on the Shadow and unleashed, he is a human being and his success depends on his ability to function. Her 'submitting' to him is in no way beneficial to the issues he is facing--indeed it would just perpetuate the problem.

 

Beyond that she should not need to weaken herself to appease him. If she--or any person--is needing to do that, then there is a very serious problem with him.

 

In fact, all Rand has ever asked of anyone is that they get behind him and help push this load of rocks up the mountain.  He just hasn't done it quite ...assertively... enough, yet.

 

Cadsuane is just the opposite.  It's gotten so bad that Rand is even looking to her for hints before he makes any decision or issues any order.

 

When the battle is raging and the general has to order the troops, he doesn't have time to look over his shoulder to get hints about what actions are "approved".  His subordinates can't be looking past him to see if the woman in the background is nodding every time he issues an order either.

 

Aside from himself, Cadsuane is the nearest ( and most dangerous ) enemy he has at present.  She may not have been intended to be, but that is how her portrayal has played out.

 

Rand needs to cause the ground under her to open and swallow her, before he has no authority and no army left.

 

You seem to be looking at this like he is a general in an army and she is some insubordinate civillian. That is a misperception of the situation, and for one single fact--a general can be removed and replaced. Rand cannot, he is the only Dragon in the world, the only individual who can fulfill that role.

 

You, I'm sure, would respond saying that that demands that others submit and follow him--but not so. He does not hold this roll through ability, his ascension was caused by fate. He did not go through the ranks to achieve his position, did not go to school first to study it. He had no boot camp, no training.

 

And thats the issue. We learn the most through dealing with peers. Rand never had the option, he was immediately thrust to a height were none could be his peer--even those that should, the Aes Sedai, ruined it by attempting to control him at every turn--even Moiraine. From there they could never be his peers, never serve the roll he needed them to serve. They could only be his subordinates or his enemies.

 

And that IS a problem Bob. Rand is more than a general, he is the leader of the human race in its last, darkest hour--and there is a divergence there. Generals leading do need unwavering support from their soldiers, but they also need the controling hand of their government--and when they don't have that, when they don't have a restraining influence, or someone to call them to account for mistakes and stupidities--or when the government IS the general, things turn bad. Very bad. Their successes work against them, they see victories and assume it means things are going well--they are blind, as we all are to one degree or another, and no one around them can point that out. Even the most brilliant inevitably lose because of it.

 

There is more going on than a woman asserting her opinion. There is a young man whose successes and life, whilst educating him to one sense, have blinded him to another.

 

Good point.  I'd forgotten that viewing of Min's.

 

Apparently, whatever "good" Cadsuane is intended to accomplish, it just aint the right "good", or enough "good."

 

Except that it would appear that it is exactly the right good, exactly what needs to be accomplished.

 

But, when the troops are marshalling, and the logistics train is rolling, you get behind the man-in-charge, no matter how much of a twit you may believe he is, and PUSH.  You salute, crisply, and your only response... ever... is "YES, SIR!  RIGHT AWAY, SIR!" 

 

But when your sitting in the tent with the man leading the armies far away from the battle and he's acting like a prat you give him a slap on the knuckles and tell him to grow the hell up. It's what i'd do.

 

And as a side note, but isn't that exactly what Cadsuane did? When push came to shove, and the um... 'logistic train is rolling' she backed him... without question. What he was planning risked the world, yet she backed him to the hilt.

 

In fact all Cadsuane really understands is that she thought she'd already be dead by now.  But, no.  So, now she has one last chance for Cadsuane Melindrin to go into the history books as "The brilliant and stalwart White Tower Aes Sedai who engineered the glorious victory at Tarmon Gai'don!"  Huzzah, huzzah.

 

Notice there's no mention of Rand.  Nor any Dragon.  Reborn or otherwise.

 

Notice that you wrote that, and not Cadsuane? Cadsuane serves the light, and Rand, to the best of her ability, and only EVER in their best interest, never hers. She can't do anything else, she's bound to it.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

But when your sitting in the tent with the man leading the armies far away from the battle and he's acting like a prat you give him a slap on the knuckles and tell him to grow the hell up. It's what i'd do.

 

That's exactly my point.  You do it in private.  She does it in public.

 

I'm glad you're so sure she serves the Light.  Moiraine sure wasn't on the one known occasion when their paths crossed.

 

She says the right words and does the wrong things.  I go with the actions not the words.

 

Remember, an Aes Sedai can tell ANY lie if she believes it to be true.  Ask yourself what Cadsuane's truths are.  "The Tower must prevail", has to be very near the top.

 

And there is certainly a possibility that things will be written so that her actions have all the desired results.  If so, I'm with Dbob.  One of the most unrealistic characterizations ever.

[Majsju]

I didn't mean to indicate that women should "submit" to get respect at all.  A more accurate statment would be that a woman should learn to respect her man by submitting to his leadership.  Not treat him like an idiot all the time.

 

Any man who thinks he has some kind of "leadership" in a relationship deserves about as much respect as a pile of dogpoo.

 

And if you are refering to the kind of relation that is between Rand and Cadsuane, Rand is in no way any kind of leader there. She committed herself to help him of her own free while. She clearly laid out what she expected from Rand in order to act as his advisor, and he accepted. She can turn her back on him and walk away at any given time, except that her concern for the outcome of TG would outweigh any personal feelings she has about Rand.

[bRANDan]

A more accurate statment would be that a woman should learn to respect her man by submitting to his leadership.  Not treat him like an idiot all the time.

 

I'm a guy and even I think you are asking for it. I'm completely fine with following a woman's lead, whether she be wife/girlfriend, relative, friend or a complete stranger that I am stuck with. The only qualifier is that they must be a more competent leader than me. If I was an incompetent leader, or good leader whose goals were foolish, I would happily follow a better leader, be it male or female. If I was too stupid to follow this better leader then I hope those following me would be smart enough to realize this and abandon my foolish leadership, you can't be a leader without followers.

 

As for Rand, he doesn't have much experience as a leader, LTT does, but not Rand. His actions in CoS in Shadar Logoth show this, his actions in PoD against the Seanchan show this, his actions at the Cleansing show this (Cadsuane was the one who organised everyone, not Rand), and on many many more occasions he has also shown his incompetence. He will only be a good leader when he realises he can't do everything himself and gives others more responsibility, and not in the way he did with Taim, give someone responsibility and then leave it for good or ill. Once he and LTT merge, or begin to completely share memories and experiences, then Rand will become a better leader. Cadsuane has every reason to do as she does.

 

In Africa, a while ago, there was a bunch of adult elephants that were killed. The younger elephants grew until they themselves were adults and the young adult bulls began to be reckless, go on rampages, and kill others, both elephants and other animals, and people. They solved this by introducing male elephants that were bigger. The larger male elephants, that were raised properly, began to teach these young bulls lessons. The younger bulls ended up submitting to the larger bulls and they haven't had the problem since.

 

Basically, Rand is a young bull elephant, he's reckless and hasn't had anyone to teach him how to behave, everyone else he's had to deal with has had less power than him or been unwilling to stand up to him. Cadsuane is a larger elephant, she's got the fortitude and the strength to teach him the lessons he needs to be taught. It doesn't matter if you agree with what she's doing, it is both necessary and the right thing to do, humility is something he needs to learn too.

 

And gender has nothing to do with anything.

[Luckers]

That's exactly my point.  You do it in private.  She does it in public.

 

No, you don't do it in private. It wouldn't be effective--being embarressed in front others is a massive reinforcement. He'll learn faster for it.

 

Aside from which he's done nothing to earn concideration from her. They arn't friends, and he isn't her leader. He's acted like a child everytime he's around her, and gets treated as such. I would do no different in her place.

 

I'm glad you're so sure she serves the Light.  Moiraine sure wasn't on the one known occasion when their paths crossed.

 

Moiraine was wrong. It's not the first time.

 

She says the right words and does the wrong things.  I go with the actions not the words.

 

And what actions has she done precisely that you think are wrong? Backing Rand at the Cleansing? Saving his life in Cairhein? Rescuing him in Far Madding? Risking her life at his side in any of a number of places, in order that he achieve his goals?

 

When he's acting like a child, she's treats him like a child--public or private, and yes thats embarressing for him--but when push comes to shove she backs him with all of her not inconciderable might. And if she doesn't bow and scrape... well he has no right to expect her to. If he can't deal with her despite that....

 

Remember, an Aes Sedai can tell ANY lie if she believes it to be true.  Ask yourself what Cadsuane's truths are.  "The Tower must prevail", has to be very near the top.

 

Nope, Cadsuane states clearly that what she does in his best interest, not the Towers and not her own. There is no dissembling there, no prevarication. No room for counter interpretation. She will act at all times in his best interest. If it ever came the time where she would have to tear down the Tower in order that he succeed, she would do it.

 

Beyond that though, I've seen no evidence that Cadsuane holds an unhealthy respect for the Tower. Indeed, she's as quick to slap down Aes Sedai when they are acting like children as anyone else.

 

Frankly i think you just don't like the way she embarresses your hero--all this about Cadsuane being self-serving, and willfully subverting Rand's power in order to reserve a place in the histories for herself is not only unsupported, its completely in contradiction with the books. She is a woman with an unyielding sense of integrity. She treats people in the manner they deserve irrespective of title and position. She doesn't posture, she doesn't wax poetic about the mysterious depth of her power--she simply is, and won't bend from what she is.

 

She is also unfailing in her support of Rand, and her efforts to secure his victory. And we know that her methods and actions are the correct manner--we've witnessed the budding results, and we have Min's viewing.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

In a perfect world, with all the time in the universe to amend things, possibly.  Regardless, the person in the leadership role DOES deserve respect.

 

But, when the troops are marshalling, and the logistics train is rolling, you get behind the man-in-charge, no matter how much of a twit you may believe he is, and PUSH.  You salute, crisply, and your only response... ever... is "YES, SIR!  RIGHT AWAY, SIR!" And, you mean it and you do it with every bit of energy you can muster. Because to do anything else is certain disaster.  For everyone. If he truly is a twit, it may be a disaster anyway, but the only chance you have is if everyone has utter and complete confidence in him and his decisions. Cadsuane, ( and, apparently you, Maj ) has no understanding of that uncomfortable fact-of-leadership and war.

 

I disagree entirely.

 

Since we're talking about leadership and war: British officers are taught what the Army refers to as moral courage during training. This moral courage refers to the ability to stand up for what you know is right. This includes illegal orders and, occasionally, stupid orders. Ref. Abu Ghraib.

 

You don't just sign up and follow the leader. All leaders, at whatever level, have to use their moral judgement. This is precisely the kind of check that Rand needs.

 

Now, moving on to politics... Rand is essentially a dictator. The majority of dictators are surrounded by "yes men." How many dictators do you know who were open to influence? Many of them lead their people into Hell because they were unable to bend and nobody / not enough people, stood up to them. ref. Hitler, Pol Pot, etc.

 

Outside influence is key to avoiding the above.

 

She treats him the way she does because she has no respect for him whatsoever.

 

Well, he was raised to the position through fate. It was an arbitary appointment, would he have made it if Randlands saviour was selected on merit? Maybe, maybe not.

 

He's also in his early 20s, he shows her very little respect. Can you imagine how frustrating it must be to know that the fate of the world hangs in the balance and the saviour rarely takes advice?

[Graendals favourite]

Yea,

In a perfect world, with all the time in the universe to amend things, possibly.  Regardless, the person in the leadership role DOES deserve respect.

A person in a leadership role needs respect, but it must be earned. If people voluntarily give him the power over them, then they must respect this decision, that it indeed is Rand who decides. There's fairly few people who accept him to have a universal leadership anyway. Rand is destined to lead the fight against the Dark One, but he does take it that he must get to decide on everything. His pride comes in to play, when that has nothing to do with defeating the Dark One. It is for reason every ruler and nobles 's first thoughts about Rand seem to be, that the Prophecies speak nothing about him ruling nations. Of course the Forsaken do a fair job at creating chaos, them and Darkfriends, but nevertheless, he needs to earn respect so that people can follow him from something else than fear. He doesn't really leave people with any choices as it is. Now I'm not saying this is an easy job, but the truth remains, it is very understandable that any noble will be relieved when Rand is faraway.

[Dbob]

Military officers don’t go into their commands to earn “obedience” or “respect.” They have a job to do, do it well and you do get more respect than simply that of rank, <i>that</i> can be earned, but so can disrespect, say by being made to look like a weak fool buy some loose cannon running around that you won’t discipline, striking a superior is treason in any army I’ve ever heard of.

 

Cadsuane isn’t teaching anything useful. She slaps him in public, humiliates him, and treats him like an idiot. There’s no way that’s helping him with his command. That’s undermining his command.

 

Doesn’t matter if she’s there voluntarily; she’s also there without an invitation. We know what the author intends for her, I just find the story line completely and absurdly implausible. Her character is just another in a long line of unreasonable bullies that the other characters just put up with. She certainly isn’t going to teach anyone manners; she doesn’t know what that is.

 

[Jehaine]

Hmm... Reading through this thread about leadership and respect, i'm reminded by what was being said when the Band was first formed in the books.

 

One of the first people to swear to him had served under a general that was a complete fruitcake. Can't remember his name, but he ordered his men to chop down oak trees because he felt they were looking at him, then had them buried.

 

The important part of this example being that his men still followed him. Why? Because he was good at winning battles. If you are good at what you do, you get respect.

 

To a general, both victory and failure reflect on his (or her) ability to lead. Rand doesn't have Mat's memories, or Bashere's experience. Ever since he declared himself the DR he's being told he's the only one that can save the world, and all Cadsuane's trying to do is try not to make him overconfident.

 

That she's not being all too gentle about it would be a habit that's slipped in from having the highest 'Saidin hunter' score on record in the WT.

[Bob T Dwarf]

There's a formula for how one declines an illegal order.  That formula does not include attempting to humiliate your superior officer in public. Attempting to humiliate a superior officer in public is called Gross Insubordination.

 

There's also a protocol for advising generals and rulers.  Step one of that protocol is : DO IT IN PRIVATE.

 

And, unlike what many of you claim, Rand has never been unwilling to take advice.  He has only been unwilling to put up with obstructive attitudes.

 

In fact he often seeks advice, viz. his counsels with the Aiel Clan Chiefs.

 

And, no matter how reasonable you may find it that some rulers are put-off by having to cede authority to him, it isn't at all reasonable under the circumstances.  Tarmon Gai'don is on the horizon, or hadn't you heard?  Business is nowhere near usual, anymore.  Maybe it will be again, but, for now, there's a whole new set of priorities, and all of those dingbats need to get with the program.  Yesterday.

[Majsju]

That she's not being all too gentle about it would be a habit that's slipped in from having the highest 'Saidin hunter' score on record in the WT.

 

Also a habit from +200 years of experience when it comes to dealing with jumped-up brats, and by that experience knowing what works.

 

TG is lurking just around the corner, she does not have the time to treat Rand like a little baby who might break if you do not cuddle him.

[Graendals favourite]

Military officers don’t go into their commands to earn “obedience” or “respect.” They have a job to do, do it well and you do get more respect than simply that of rank, that can be earned, but so can disrespect, say by being made to look like a weak fool buy some loose cannon running around that you won’t discipline, striking a superior is treason in any army I’ve ever heard of.

 

Cadsuane isn’t teaching anything useful. She slaps him in public, humiliates him, and treats him like an idiot. There’s no way that’s helping him with his command. That’s undermining his command.

 

Doesn’t matter if she’s there voluntarily; she’s also there without an invitation. We know what the author intends for her, I just find the story line completely and absurdly implausible. Her character is just another in a long line of unreasonable bullies that the other characters just put up with. She certainly isn’t going to teach anyone manners; she doesn’t know what that is.

Firstly, Rand is not a military officer. He is rather a political leader, in that he must general the overall battle against the Dark One. He has his generals and advisors, people who have sworn or agreed to follow him, which contains people who bring up the coin, food and soldiers. Some of them have sworn to follow him because he is who he is and they have little choice. Rand on the other hand has to lead the struggle against the Shadow because there is no one else to do it. However, this does not change the fact that he doesn't have much qualifications for what he is doing, that is trusting no one with anything of substance and expecting blind obedience on matters unrelated to the fight against the Shadow. Rand is not a part of a military chain: he may think he is that in respect to the Asha'man, but actually the leader of the Black Tower is Taim, while Taim's status is to be allied with Rand, the Dragon Reborn. Out of the Tower, Logain's group is also rather allied to Rand, not subordinate other than that they follow where he leads.

 

Rand is not going to fight the war alone, nor is he the only one with a stake in it. He might have actually managed to turn most everyone against him before Tarmon Gai'don, if he'd act like a tyrant and make too many bad decisions. Cadsuane has certainly helped in making Rand start to delegate matters, trying to take care of all the million small matters that creep up everywhere would leave Rand no time to do anything. Just look how much time Elayne has needed in governing only Caemlyn, but she has established a unified Andor ready to march against the Shadow. Thanks to the Aes Sedai, Tear is now as unified. Hopefully Rand has an idea where they all should march, and if not hopefully he will consult some people at some stage, because no one can really afford too many wrong moves, and once the battle starts Rand will not be able to control what anyone else does since he'll presumable be occupied with whatever he himself will be doing.

 

As to the slaps, I don't think they can undermine his position any more than all his royal tantrums. Throwing tantrums is really a very good way to undermine one's own position, it shows poor character and suspect reliability. Making good decisions is of course most important. This last is what the slaps have helped him do, and most people following Rand understand this, at least the nobles and generals.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Luckers -

 

What part of "an Aes Sedai can tell any, repeat ANY, lie if she believes it to be true", don't you get?  Just because she truly believes her actions are in Rand's best interest does not mean that they are.

 

I never said she was stupid.  She knows the Prophesies.  She knows Rand has to be at TG.  Of course she's going to do whatever she can to see that he lives long enough to get there.  Nothing remarkable in anything she's done in that regard.

 

She only has the position she does BECAUSE Rand knows he needs advice from a wiser head.  Moiraine has been gone.  He needs a replacement.  Cadsuane is the only one available who might fit that bill.  So, he let her bull her way in.  

 

And, sadly, he puts up with her nonsense.  Which only proves how badly he needs a COMPETENT advisor.  Whose first advice would be to have Cadsuane shot.

 

Lastly, I have no notion what viewing of Min's you mean.  Min had a viewing that Rand would fail without Moiraine.  I can recall no viewings about the need for Cadsuane.

 

EDIT:

Ahhh, I think I recall, now.  Something about "she will teach him something he doesn't want to know."

 

Yeah, probably that ya gotta shoot fools, even if they are women.

[Dbob]

 

As to the slaps, I don't think they can undermine his position any more than all his royal tantrums. Throwing tantrums is really a very good way to undermine one's own position, it shows poor character and suspect reliability. Making good decisions is of course most important. This last is what the slaps have helped him do, and most people following Rand understand this, at least the nobles and generals.

 

Rand is leading an Army, he’s not governing nations. That would most definitely make him a military officer and not a politician.

 

Whatever Rand’s personal F*** ups are, we were talking Cadsuane, and her personal F*** ups. If you want to talk Rand, I’m happy to switch f*** ups.

 

I find her whole story line completely unbelievable.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Also a habit from +200 years of experience when it comes to dealing with jumped-up brats, and by that experience knowing what works.

 

What "jumped-up brats" has she been dealing with?  She's been primarily a hunter of men who can channel.  And then, all she's done is slap them around until they allowed themselves to be peacefully led away and "gentled".  She's never been in the position of "advisor" to anyone so far as the books tell us.

[Graendals favourite]

Rand is leading an Army, he’s not governing nations. That would most definitely make him a military officer and not a politician.

 

Whatever Rand’s personal F*** ups are, we were talking Cadsuane, and her personal F*** ups. If you want to talk Rand, I’m happy to switch f*** ups.

Rand does not have a part in a military chain. When he fights, he fights as a soldier, in duels against mighty foes or unleashing the power upon enemy armies. Neither does he lead armies, he does not have training in that. Aiel chiefs, Bashere and Mat lead armies directly allied to him. Rand is like Egwene, a political leader. Political leaders tell soldiers what to achieve and leave them to it, while the soldiers hopefully dare tell the politician what can be reasonably achieved and at what price.

 

It is difficult to speak of Cadsuane's actions without touching Rand's faults, since as any of Rand's advisors, she acts to supplement Rand abilities and correct his failures. It is a luxury for Rand to have, especially in his position and with his behaviour, someone willing to work at his best and point out his faults and not think of their personal interest in the matter. It is not like Rand is likely to thank people for criticism even though it is not yet too late for him to change things.

[Majsju]

What "jumped-up brats" has she been dealing with?  She's been primarily a hunter of men who can channel.  And then, all she's done is slap them around until they allowed themselves to be peacefully led away and "gentled".  She's never been in the position of "advisor" to anyone so far as the books tell us.

 

She has not been "primarily a hunter of men who can channel". That would make her Red Ajah, which she is not, she is Green. And from her own mouth, "Not that I hunted them, you understand, but I seem to have a nose." And however she has dealt with them, it has obviously been quite effective, since the men she has captured has had a greater rate of surviving being gentled than those captured by the Red Ajah.

And a very basic understanding of what the Ajahs are doing pretty much tells us that a Green sister who is out and about for such a long time as Cadsuane (Remember that we are talking about an Aes Sedai who made a point of staying out of the Tower as much as possible) will get herself involved with leaders who needs to get their act together. There is no need to be appointed advisor in order to give good advice, and from her dealings with Rand it is obvious to the most casual observer that she does indeed have a great deal of experience in the field.

[aevogt]

Rand is certainly acting as a general in the campaign against the Seanchan in PoD.

 

The major difference with Cadsuane is that she is not just another groundpounder under Rand's command.  In WWII, Patton and Monty didn't like one another (and had some jealousy issues) but they were equals and treated one another as such.

 

Rand went to her and asked her to be his advisor.  Not the other way around.  She is just under three hundred years old and has more than a little experience with men channeling saidin.  It is stated right in the books that those men she brought to TV lived considerably longer than others which means she knows something about saidin that no one else knows.

 

On his own, Rand's decisions almost always lead to disaster.

 

He toys with the Tower embassy long enough to give them a chance to kidnap him.

 

He goes to confront the rebels and is nearly killed by Fain

 

He tries to root the Seanchan out of Altara and winds up killing many of his own men by using Callandor.

 

He bails on the Sea Folk negotiations before they are complete and winds up with a bad bargain.

 

Rand needs people around him who will scold him like the child he is.  Min is one, Cadsuane is another.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

It is difficult to speak of Cadsuane's actions without touching Rand's faults, since as any of Rand's advisors, she acts to supplement Rand abilities and correct his failures. It is a luxury for Rand to have, especially in his position and with his behaviour, someone willing to work at his best and point out his faults and not think of their personal interest in the matter. It is not like Rand is likely to thank people for criticism even though it is not yet too late for him to change things.

 

All of that is very true - so far as it goes.

 

The problem is you fail to think it all the way through.  ADVICE is given in private.  ORDERS are given (primarily) in public.  Cadsuane doesn't offer advice. She gives orders.  Very, very publicly.

 

Min offers advice.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maj -

 

What you're describing for Cadsuane is a rigidity of thought that is incapable of adapting to present circumstance.

 

That is the product of an ossified soul.

[Dbob]

Rand does not have a part in a military chain. When he fights, he fights as a soldier, in duels against mighty foes or unleashing the power upon enemy armies. Neither does he lead armies, he does not have training in that. Aiel chiefs, Bashere and Mat lead armies directly allied to him. Rand is like Egwene, a political leader. Political leaders tell soldiers what to achieve and leave them to it, while the soldiers hopefully dare tell the politician what can be reasonably achieved and at what price.

 

Excuse me but this is ridiculous, Cairhein, the battle against Illian, mobilizing the Aiel, his plans for the Seanchan, Dumai’s wells, etc. All of these involve military decisions taken by a general in the field. His chain of command is painfully obvious. The only time you see him fighting as a “soldier” is when he get’s attacked/attacks forsaken, and quite frankly that’s really not even the same thing.

 

It is difficult to speak of Cadsuane's actions without touching Rand's faults, since as any of Rand's advisors, she acts to supplement Rand abilities and correct his failures. It is a luxury for Rand to have, especially in his position and with his behaviour, someone willing to work at his best and point out his faults and not think of their personal interest in the matter. It is not like Rand is likely to thank people for criticism even though it is not yet too late for him to change things.

 

It is difficult to speak of Rand's actions without touching Cadsuane's faults, see, you can reverse that, it doesn’t really mean anything anyway. She does what she does, of herself, by herself. He doesn’t force her to do anything. The rest of this, no offense, I think is your extrapolation. If she were clearly doing any of that selfless martyr stuff we wouldn't be having this discussion. She remains a pushy, bossy, rude, belligerent type of person. I find it absurdly implausible that she can benefit Rand in any positive way, and the only reason I can find that she might, is because the author wrote it that way; which is why I find this plot line completely unbelievable.

[Dbob]

Rand needs people around him who will scold him like the child he is.  Min is one, Cadsuane is another.

 

 

See this is precisely where this argument lies. Rand is <i>not</i> a child, whether he acts immaturely or not. He’s an adult. Try, just try treating adults, no matter how silly their behavior, as a child and see if they thank you for it; see if they listen, see if they want you around.

 

Rand doesn’t ask Cadsuane to stay based on anything she does, he was going to <i>toss her</i> based on her behavior, Its Min, Lets repeat that it’s Min, that got him to keep her around. Cadsuane had already failed, let’s repeat that. Cadsuane had already offended to the point that Rand was going to toss her.

 

The last thing Rand needs is scolding and patronizing condescension, form a bunch of women who are failed in their own attempts to make a better world. He needs support and counsel from people he trusts and cares about. People hopefully who are competent in the fields he needs to become proficient in.

 

None of that is Cadsuane.