How did I miss this so long

[trakand_01]

Cadsuane is the Miss Marple of WoT. She's old, she's seen it all and she hasnt got time to be messed about. She also couldnt care less what people think of her, and has managed to forge such a reputation for herself that her name precedes her.

 

She's a gem.

[Bob T Dwarf]

She's also the one character with the age and experience to know, not think, but truly know, how unproductive her whole approach really is.  But, she bulls ahead with her whole, "I know more than everybody, about everything.", approach anyway.

 

Her whole purpose seems to be to break Rand and then rebuild him according to her specifications.  There isn't the time left for that and it wouldn't be the right thing to do in the first place.

 

Miss Marple is a gem.  She's wise enough to know that you accomplish more with a single well-timed question, than with a set of directives.  She only starts getting bossy after she's asked all the relevant questions and finally has it all figured out.

 

Cadsuane never really asks any questions, although she sometimes stages demonstrations of her own superiority in ALL areas as questions.  To be fair, that probably is exactly the right tack to take with other Aes Sedai, but it's the wrong one to take with Rand. 

 

Cadsuane is just a pain in the posterior.

[trakand_01]

There's a prophecy which mentions the emotions in Rand, which I'm pretty sure is what Cadsuane is working on.

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow,

for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.

Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield.

He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow.

Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Indeed.  And he does need to remember how and when to laugh and cry and allow himself to be vulnerable enough to truly love.

 

But, this aint Boot Camp and Cads isn't his DI.

 

Now, if everyone had the patience for another four or five volumes, there'd be the time for her to break him down and rebuild him. 

 

We don't and there isn't.

[Luckers]

Yet she will. Already she has had remarkable success--she actually has him pausing to reconsider his positions, if for no other reason than that she leaves him looking like a tool if he doesn't.

 

And she is correct to do so. It may hurt his feelings but this is the fate of the world he's dealing in. If he doesn't have the self control and sense of self to be able to deal with her, then he needs to be slapped down.

 

And incidently I think your incorrect. Cadsuane does not enjoy being a pain--she is as harsh as she needs to be, and shows genuine regret for when that harshness truly hurts people. Yet unlike the majority of the characters she has a true sense of integrity. She does not throw her weight around simply to be felt, se does what is needed, when it is needed, and beyond that she simply exists. Uncompromising, which can indeed be uncomfortable to those around, but ultimately non-antagonistic.

 

She's also the one character with the age and experience to know, not think, but truly know, how unproductive her whole approach really is.  But, she bulls ahead with her whole, "I know more than everybody, about everything.", approach anyway.

 

What? Her appraoch is effective, and her experience would make her aware of this--which is, i imagine, why she is employing it.

 

That being said her approach has never been 'i know more than everybody about everything'. Thats not even close to her approach. She'll bitch slap people down when they are being silly, but she never pushes her own agenda or methodology. She gives what she does know, shoots down what she knows to be wrong... but goes no further. When in the realm of speculation she listens, and supports as is needed. Even when someone elses speculation is contrary to her own. She's indeed one of the most realistically grounded characters about dealing with new knowledge and new circumstances.

 

Cadsuane is just a pain in the posterior.

 

That she is--at least to fools. Its why she's so effective.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nice - you get a point for that one. :D

 

Even so, I still disagree.  There are better and more effective ways to do things than to make the boss look bad in public.  If he's being a fool, by all means tell him so.   Show him how if possible.  But do it in private where it doesn't undermine the confidence and respect of the troops.

 

She's taken things so far now, that if I were one of those around Rand, I'd be wondering, "Who's really in control here, Rand or Cadsuane??"

 

That's fatal to a Chain-of-Command.

 

Worse, or at least as bad, it undermines Rand's self confidence.  That's already waaay too shaky.  In fact, if he truly had any he wouldn't be listening to her at all.

[Majsju]

True self confidence includes the willingness to listen to others when they tell you you are an idiot, and accept that they are correct. Only weak people refuses to listen to others when they offer good advice. Rand is slowly growing mature enough to do this, which he would never have managed without Cadsuane.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maybe.

 

And, of course you're right that the truly self-confident are willing to listen to all advice, both good and bad, knowing they can separate wheat from chaff.

 

Doesn't change the fact that she's fatally damaging the Chain-of-Command.

 

Killing flies is a good thing.  Using nuclear weapons to do it... not so much. ( Yes, I know that's gross over-statement here, but I think ya get my point )

 

As I said, calling him down when he's being silly is needed.  Doing it in public is not.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It made terrific sense.  It also bears on my point.

 

Cadsuane is Aes Sedai to her core.  Her priority is to assure the Tower's preeminence in all things.  Her priority is that it be seen and acknowledged that an Aes Sedai is pulling the Dragon Reborn's strings.

 

The imperative here is for the Dragon Reborn to win TG ( as much as anything resembling a "win" is possible ), and let the chips fall where they may.

 

Contrary to being any help, she is a direct hindrance in accomplishing the imperative.  And it's precisely because she will not be seen to submit in any way.  Ever.  No matter the cost.

[Dbob]

I think RJ was really onto something by have the female half of the True Source be something that the Aes Sedai have to submit to.  Nynaeve's block, for instance, was genius.  Nynaeve is a complex character, but no one can deny how stubborn and bull-headed she can be, and sometimes completely immature (fighting with Egwene, the argument with Lan in TSR).  However, her character really started to develop for me in CoS when she realized that submission was the key to her power.

 

I also think that submission (in a male/female) relationship is the key to a woman's power.  I don't mean putting up with a "make me some sandwiches!" kind of man, submitting like a milksop.  When a woman respects a man's leadership, regardless of the style of his leadership, rather than being an immature brat (i.e. Faile), submitting to what he has to say - not seeing him as a mule to be guided - then she might be surprised at the kind of power she has in the relationship.  How much a man will listen to a woman when he feels respected by her.

 

I really don’t agree with this at all. I don’t think women should “submit” to male authority in order to get “respect.” I suspect that maybe you didn’t mean that quite the way it sounds. If the guy is a blithering idiot, one would hope that a competent woman would recognize the fact and act accordingly. Rand for the last few books is asking for it. His behavior is ridiculous. The women around him do tend to have this habit of making his life worse, rather than better, but then he’s not exactly the ideal of good leadership and clear perspective.

 

We all know that Cadsuane is going to “fix” him, that’s the way the author wrote the story, whether that story line is believable is another question entirely. Personally, I find her attitude and actions of a piece with every other harridan in the books. Back here in the real world I don’t know many (or really any – but I suppose there must be some out there) guys who would react positively to the way she treats Rand. The only reason she’s still around is because of Min, that doesn’t say much for her acumen or her skill.

 

The only Aes Sedai who figured out how to deal with Rand was Moiraine, and she did it by realizing that he was going to pay the price, that he had to come to terms with that himself, and she turned herself into a support, not a combative obstacle – instead, giving him the benefit of her experience to do what he needed to do. His attitude towards her shifted dramatically afterwards. Why, because first off she promised to help him not the W.T. and gave him the promises he needed to trust her, second because I think she finally figured out that her plans were not the creator’s plans.

 

Cadsuane is still firmly in the “I know all” camp.

 

[Majsju]

I also think that submission (in a male/female) relationship is the key to a woman's power.  I don't mean putting up with a "make me some sandwiches!" kind of man, submitting like a milksop.  When a woman respects a man's leadership, regardless of the style of his leadership, rather than being an immature brat (i.e. Faile), submitting to what he has to say - not seeing him as a mule to be guided - then she might be surprised at the kind of power she has in the relationship.  How much a man will listen to a woman when he feels respected by her.

 

Poor leadership does not deserve any respect. And apparently Cadsuanes way works just fine, since she is the one person who has had the most success (in competition with Moiraine) setting Rand straight. He is slowly start to realise what Cadsuane is doing is for his, and the worlds, good.

 

As long as he acts like a immature brat, cadsuane will treat him as such. Once he grows up, she will treat him with more respect. But he has to earn her respect.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, see that's pretty key, Dbob.

 

Moiraine achieved her position of respect and trust mostly by being willing to submit.  Even being willing to be seen to - publicly - in whatever fashion he wished.  She was willing to do whatever it took to provide Rand with the guidance and counsel he needed.  She wants to win TG, first and foremost.

 

To Rand's credit he did not require her to submit to much of anything.  Her willingness was all that was needed to gain his trust.  Nor, did he ever abuse the trust she showed in him by offering.  To her credit, she offered her advice and correction in private, thus helping preserve his authority.

 

In fact, all Rand has ever asked of anyone is that they get behind him and help push this load of rocks up the mountain.  He just hasn't done it quite ...assertively... enough, yet.

 

Cadsuane is just the opposite.  It's gotten so bad that Rand is even looking to her for hints before he makes any decision or issues any order.

 

When the battle is raging and the general has to order the troops, he doesn't have time to look over his shoulder to get hints about what actions are "approved".  His subordinates can't be looking past him to see if the woman in the background is nodding every time he issues an order either.

 

Aside from himself, Cadsuane is the nearest ( and most dangerous ) enemy he has at present.  She may not have been intended to be, but that is how her portrayal has played out.

 

Rand needs to cause the ground under her to open and swallow her, before he has no authority and no army left.

[Dbob]

I wouldn’t think that Moiraine’s submission is somehow a general requirement for respect, I think she needed that specific action <i>because</i> she spent so much time trying to force him to dance to her tune. He wasn’t going to trust her without knowing she had stopped trying to “guide” him. I certainly don’t see him treating Egwene or Nynaeve the same way. They didn’t have to submit in order for him to trust them.

 

I agree about Cadsuane though. She isn’t helping anything really, just making the situation more difficult. Also you’re right about her “correcting” Rand in public; it’s counterproductive to everything she claims to be doing. Plus her running around insisting on manners, while having none herself is quite amusing. Like a liar running around insisting on honesty.

 

Well whether or not we find her an annoyance, she’s going to be written as fixing Rand, I’ll just add it to my list of highly improbable characterization.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

OK.  I'll agree that it's only a requirement for AS whom Rand hasn't known ( and trusted ) since childhood.

[Majsju]

I wonder if this kind of comments had been floating around if Cadsuane had been a man...

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'd be even harder on a man who behaved the way Cads has.  I'm too much like Rand in respect to being willing to cut women too much slack.

 

Rand has good instincts and good impulses.  His problem is an inability to see past those instincts and impulses when it comes to women.  That's his "Block".

 

He fails because he's afraid he won't be able to do what has to be done. ( ie. order the death of women or actively cause it himself )

 

Sadly, both of those things are requirements of his position.  Somehow, he has to push past that fear and find the strength to do whatever "winning" requires.  It's one of the most godawful positions any man could ever be in, but it's one he has to face-up-to, nonetheless.

[Dbob]

If Cadsuane had been a man, his head would have been off he first time he slapped Rand. She gets away with being a tool because of the way the author wrote Rand; i.e. women can do all sorts of stupid things and Rand won’t call them to account for their actions.

 

Part and parcel of equality is responsibility; you don't have equality if someone else is making excuses for your behavior based on your gender.

 

I think you might be mistaking, at least when it comes to me, annoyance at someone acting like an idiot, which frankly is a genderless proposition, with not likeing her because she’s a woman.

 

For myself, I like strong, competent women. I don’t like dim-witted bullies, whatever their gender.

 

[Dbob]

Cross post, I wonder if people who make that argument are aware of the huge insult that a man treating another man, like Cad treats rand, would be handing out.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Dayam - I like your answer better.

 

Yes, bullies deserve to have their heads handed to them.  And idiotic conduct is genderless.  And, my objections are entirely based on her conduct not her gender.

 

If Cadsuane was intended to be written as a "help" to Rand, then Jordan went way out-of-bounds and her portrayal is a total misfire on his part.

[Dbob]

It’s remarkable how often you come across that argument. If <i>x</i> were a man, <i>y</i> wouldn’t have a problem with it.

 

It goes back to the whole equality thing I suppose. Though I have to say that if you want equality you have to take the rough and tumble along with the respect.

 

[Corbett]

Caddy is definatley a pain. She is messing with Rand and undermining his leadership. I think that because Moiraine is returning she will straighten things out and improve what is happening and ultimatley be the difference. Mainly because of Min's viewing that he would fail without her. She will come back and somehow everything will turn for the better.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Good point.  I'd forgotten that viewing of Min's.

 

Apparently, whatever "good" Cadsuane is intended to accomplish, it just aint the right "good", or enough "good."

[Bob T Dwarf]

Dbob, that's not equality. 

 

"If x were a man, y wouldn’t have a problem with it" is paternalism patting equality on its curly little head and saying, "My, aren't you cute."

 

Since he continues to act like an Aes Sedai, do ya think we should send Maj to see Sheriam.  Seems like equal treatment to me.

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maj -

 

Do you see how ridiculous the idea of sending a grown man off to be paddled is?

 

Yet, that is precisely what Jordan has happening to grown women in this series. 

 

That's hardly equality.  If it's OK for the women it has to be OK for the men, too.  If it's not OK for the men then it isn't OK for the women either.

 

Cadsuane's behavior isn't OK for anyone.  Man, woman, Nym, Ogier, or rhutabaga.  It's more than unacceptable.  It's harmful.  Period.  Dead Stop.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Poor leadership does not deserve any respect.

 

In a perfect world, with all the time in the universe to amend things, possibly.  Regardless, the person in the leadership role DOES deserve respect.

 

But, when the troops are marshalling, and the logistics train is rolling, you get behind the man-in-charge, no matter how much of a twit you may believe he is, and PUSH.  You salute, crisply, and your only response... ever... is "YES, SIR!  RIGHT AWAY, SIR!" 

 

And, you mean it and you do it with every bit of energy you can muster.

 

Because to do anything else is certain disaster.  For everyone.

 

If he truly is a twit, it may be a disaster anyway, but the only chance you have is if everyone has utter and complete confidence in him and his decisions.

 

Cadsuane, ( and, apparently you, Maj ) has no understanding of that uncomfortable fact-of-leadership and war.

 

In fact all Cadsuane really understands is that she thought she'd already be dead by now.  But, no.  So, now she has one last chance for Cadsuane Melindrin to go into the history books as "The brilliant and stalwart White Tower Aes Sedai who engineered the glorious victory at Tarmon Gai'don!"  Huzzah, huzzah.

 

Notice there's no mention of Rand.  Nor any Dragon.  Reborn or otherwise.

 

She treats him the way she does because she has no respect for him whatsoever.  Not as The Dragon Reborn.  Not as Rand al'Thor.  Not even as a human being.  He's a man who can channel, and those aren't really human are they?  She's been hunting those down and seeing to their extermination for her whole life.

 

She's a menace.  To everything.