How did I miss this so long

[Dbob]

…Excuse me officer I only slapped my wife around because she was rude. Aren’t I effective and wise; not to mention completely justified…

[Majsju]

This always kills me. She assaults him to teach him manners. Perhaps next she'll cut off his arms to teach him kindness

 

I think that he gave her his word, and then constantly breaks it has more to do with it than the question of manner itself. A leader who does not keep his word is a leader that can not be trusted. Noone respects a leader who lies.

 

And if he is such a baby that a slap from a 300 year old lady is an assault, he will have some serious trouble at TG...

[Dbob]

Rand is going to have serious trouble no matter what. He’s quite inept. Assualt is assault, unless of course you’re saying that some assault is justifiable based on gender differences. I would think that particular double standard would send you running for the hills.

 

Anyway, it’s funny because it’s complete hypocrisy. Think about it, I’m going to teach you manners by slapping them into you.

 

[Dbob]

Now please tell me that: some people need to have manners beaten into them.

 

It's the next logical argument of course.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maj -

 

I'm sorry, but you so obviously simply do not understand real life, please quit trying to comment about it as if you are a sage.

 

The "assault" isn't only to his person - it's to his authority.  His authority in this situation is the paramount thing.  Without that authority, all is lost before it even really begins.

 

 

Luckers -

 

Cadsuane is teaching him something useful, and if you don't want to take my word for it, take that of Min's infalliable visions.

 

Here's Min's vision:

"It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all."

 

Whatever it may be, there's nothing in that that says, infers, or means that he has to put up with physical assault, assault to his authority, or Cadsuane's personal version of propriety in order to learn it.  Nor, does it state or infer that what they "have to learn" is anything of what she is attempting to teach.

 

And, yes, he is her commanding officer.  He's everybody's commanding officer until TG has concluded.  Once that has happened, assuming he's still alive to care, ( and since he's not trying to found a dynasty or become Emperor of The World, he won't care even if he is still alive ), everyone, including Cadsuane, is free to resign, demob, and get back to living their lives however they choose.  And, leave him to do the same.

 

In the meantime, she's the one who is WAAAAAY out-of-line here.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

For those of you who keep pointing to all the "good" things Cadsuane has done for Rand.  Things that truly helped him...

 

Let me just point out that Elza, who is as Black as they come, would have also done each and every one of them had she been in Cadsuane's shoes.

 

Those things would not be a justification for Elza treating Rand as she treats her Warder.  They are neither justification nor excuse for how Cadsuane treats him either.

[trakand_01]

But unfortunately you have to earn respect. Simply being powerful isnt enough, it isnt a free commodity. It might be expected to be respected when you find yourself in a position of such authority, but you have to prove yourself worthy of it.

 

Where Cadsuane and the majority of the AS he has dealt with are considered, Rand unfortunately hasnt done much so far to earn their respect. He's rude, obnoxious, arrogant, argumentative... if you got a new Director in your company, and that was his attitude, would you respect him?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Apples and oranges.

 

How a director behaves and your reaction to it might have a small impact on a company's bottom line.

 

If Rand fails, existence as everyone knows it is over.  Done.  Finito.  Lights-out, dead bird.

 

If they're such twits and their poor precious feeling are so  important that they can't appreciate that fact, they deserve each and every thing the DO and the Forsaken are doing to them.

[Majsju]

The "assault" isn't only to his person - it's to his authority.  His authority in this situation is the paramount thing.  Without that authority, all is lost before it even really begins.

 

The one undermining Rands authority is he himself. Cadsuane is trying to help him learn how to be a leader, rather than a lying dictator.

There is quite a difference between forcing people to go where you point, and making them want to follow you. Any Leadership for Dummies would say pretty much the same thing.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

You very definitely got that one right.

 

None of which implies that she is employing the proper tactics to accomplish such a goal.  She quite simply isn't.  IS NOT.

[Bob T Dwarf]

As a veteran, Jordan, himself, knew that she was using the wrong tactics.

 

It is axiomatic that all grunts know that all brass are crazy.  They're in a position where that doesn't really matter.  What matters is whether THIS particular crazy plan is the one that gets said grunt killed. 

[Vambram]

As a veteran of the US Army, I happen to believe that Cadsuane has employed many good tactics to advise and guide a 21 year old Rand al`Thor.

[Bob T Dwarf]

If she'd employed those tactics IN PRIVATE, I might be tempted to agree with you.

 

On second thought, NOT.  Physical abuse is still abuse, even when it is rendered from a woman unto a man.

 

Her notion that Rand needs to have manners beaten into him is wrong.  Her notion that slapping anyone is a correct or mannerly way to treat people is patently wrong.

 

She teaches most who teaches by example.  If she truly wants his manners to improve, she might try improving her manners first.

 

All that she's really teaching him is that intentionally abusing people is OK.

[Vambram]

Well, i can see that anyone trying to get you to look objectively at Cadsuane might as well be banging their heads up against a wall, for all of the good its going to do to advance this conversation. I know that you, and others,  take offense at the "abuse" or spankings that is a regular part of the culture in Randland. But we cannot do anything to change the fact thats how RJ wrote it, and thats the culture of the people and lands of this story that we are going to have to accept and deal with, my friends.

As for as Cadsuane waiting until it is only the two of them in private, rather than in public, or in a meeting  with just a few close friends; ... well, I wager 100 Tar Valon golden crowns that Rand learns better and faster what Cadsuane is trying to teach him and advise him to do when its done in such a manner as speaking publically to him to make sure that he does not forget what she says, .. rather than just a simple one-on-one conversation which he very, very, very rarely has had time to do so with anyone at all.

RJ's writing of Rand al`Thor has shown time and time again that Rand simply does not have enough time for many private one-on-one conversations ever since book 6 or 7, and so forth.

[Snowy Dawn]

It's interesting that no one has yet mentioned Sorilea in this discussion, even tho' she has an agreement with Cadsuane about teaching Rand ``laughter and tears''. I wonder what she would have thought about Cadsuane slapping Rand? Also, unless I am forgetting a second occurrence, this all happened in relatively private circumstances in Darlin's chambers in the Stone. Since Cadsuane used the power to smack his bottom, only the Aes Sedai in the room would have been clear about what just happened. (Bera is shocked, but Nynaeve laughs, the which suggests that she, at least, thinks Rand deserved it. And, on top of that, Rand realizes that his initial reaction to the deal Bera negotiated was unwise, that Cadsuane was right, and never mind that Lews Therin quickly agrees with them.)

 

BTW, since Moiraine is about to be rescued from the land of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, what will happen when Rand suddenly has two advisers, who will, one presumes, not always agree about what advice to offer? Or perhaps, three, since with Moiraine will come Thom Merrilin, who has not been shy about offering advice to Rand in the past. 

[trakand_01]

I feel there is an obvious parallel to be drawn between Cadsuane / Rand and Anath / Tuon.

 

Granted, Anath is Semirhage - what a brilliant disguise she chose; look and behave like yourself, no-one will spot you - but the way that Tuon accepts her onslaughts, insults and derisions suggests that this is normal for a truth-speaker. I think when we first meet Tuon she says in her POV that Anath seems rather too enthusiastic for physical punishment, but she accepts her words with grace and I have always thought that she sees nothing out of the ordinary in Anath's behaviour.

 

And Anath DOES do it in public, Cadsuane shows Rand 'respect' in public, as far as I am aware - she may tut or snort at something he says, but she has never abused him infront of complete strangers.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Re. Sorilea -

 

Yes, she's striving for the same goal as Cadsuane.  She just seems to be using different methods.

 

Re. Anath -

 

The Truthspeaker, and his/her role in Seanchan society was an institutional one.  Wrapped in centuries of custom and protocol.  Understood and accepted by all levels of the nobility and military.  As such, it was "normal" and would have no bearing on how the authority of the noble was viewed.

 

Cadsuane's role is ad hoc.  It has no precedent.  It has no customary "usage".  Its closest analog would be the advisory roles Aes Sedai normally played with all rulers.  viz. Elaida with Morgase.  So far as the story tells us, that advice was always tendered in private.  Any "hints" that would have been public would likely have been circumspect and followed some code agreed upon by the ruler and advisor.

 

The underlying question here, and the bone of contention seems to be, does the end justify the means?

 

I contend that the answer is the opposite.   The means justify the end.

[trakand_01]

I think we're all going to have to agree to disagree. Personally I think Rand needs to remember he's only a man, no matter his title, and Cadsuane knows the importance of him softening up a little.

 

Rand may survive TG and if he does, he needs some emotions with which to live. Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better and he MUST be able to deal with them.

 

He's not the sort of man to patiently sit and listen to her talk, most men arent - and that isnt a sexist criticism, it's the truth; men prefer to act, women prefer to discuss.

 

I dont agree that just because he has aquired the title of Dragon Reborn, that means he can behave as he likes and everyone bows down. Why should they? When it all boils down, he's a 20 year old backwater boy who's real 'life experience' started less than 2 years ago. He needs to prove he's worthy of respect before he gets it. As far as the Aes Sedai are concerned, he's not quite there yet.

 

I dont really think that she is doing anything that will harm his reputation. Yes she slapped him when they first met but he was particularly bad mannered and rude to her - if I spoke to anyone, let alone a notorious Aes Sedai, in that way I would expect some sort of rebuke.

 

Also it was not really 'public'. There were a few Aes Sedai there, but if I remember rightly it was Merana and a couple more? She is under the control of the Wise Ones, well and truly sealed to Rand and I very much doubt (nor have we seen evidence in the story) that his authority is dimmed in her mind. In true Public, ie outside of Rand's really very personal group of followers; Verin, Alanna, Min, a couple of other Aes Sedai, she is cool and serene, the very image of an Aes Sedai and never publically rebukes him.

 

In Cadsuane's defence, she had just emerged from retirement, many thought her dead and she, being the most powerful out of them, was destined to be the leader but she needed to do more than that - she is a legend, and she knows it. Every Aes Sedai hears of Cadsuane Melaihdrin and her ways, they all know her reputation and if she is to gain their respect, a little bit of awe and a lot of authority, she needs to maintain that reputation. If she had gone in there saying "Oh, excuse me Mr Dragon Reborn man, please can I have five minutes, you see i've been planning this for twenty five years and i've got ever such a lot to say" her reputation would have been shot, and the Aes Sedai would have eaten her for lunch!

[Bob T Dwarf]

I dont agree that just because he has aquired the title of Dragon Reborn, that means he can behave as he likes and everyone bows down. Why should they? When it all boils down, he's a 20 year old backwater boy who's real 'life experience' started less than 2 years ago. He needs to prove he's worthy of respect before he gets it. As far as the Aes Sedai are concerned, he's not quite there yet.

 

Why would you think that because I oppose Cadsuane's methods I oppose her goal?  Why would you think that I feel Rand should be allowed to "behave as he likes and everyone bows down?"

 

Neither of those things is true.

 

What I believe is that the people of Randland in general and those that Rand comes into contact with in particular, need to get beyond their petty, everyday, contentiousness, and start paying real attention to that rather large locomotive called TG bearing down on where they are standing and bickering.

 

I think Rand can be forgiven for being somewhat put-out at their obstructiveness.  Even so, I don't think he gets to become the Queen of Hearts, either.

 

He needs advice.  He needs helpful direction.  Cadsuane provides neither.

[trakand_01]

But for most of the Randlanders, Tarmon Gaidon is something that you scare small children with. We have a reference early in the books where the boys are saying how Myrdraal and Trollocs used to be something in gleemen's tales, but now they were breathing down their necks and this is the case for the average Randlander.

 

I think the problem with 100% of our characters being main protagonists, people for whom Tarmon Gaidon is very much real is that we assume everyone has that same involvement with it. I would imagine there's a fair proportion of the population who, whilst they know who the Dragon Reborn is, STILL believe it 'wont happen to them'.

 

I appreciate that when you refer to Randlanders, you do specify particularly the people that Rand comes into contact with, but if someone knocked on your door tomorrow, while you were in the middle of living your well-established life and said "OK, stop whatever you're doing, you remember Armageddon? I dont know whether you believe in it or not but it's coming in three months so if you'll just follow me..." would you drop everything and follow, or would you ask just who the heck they were, and what gave them the right to assume you'd do as they said?

 

At the end of the day though, it is all irrelevant. Tarmon Gaidon IS coming, and they will eventually be affected one way or another.

 

Back to the theme on Cadsuane, I think that Moiraine would have done it another way, but Caddy is a very different person to Moiraine. Siuan, however, I think would have slapped Rand too.

 

Whether the end justifies the means, or the means justify the end, I think that it is so important that Rand learn whatever Caddy has to teach him, I'll sit and watch her do it.

 

;D ;D :D ;)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Rand isn't knocking on doors.  He isn't Chicken Little trying to convince everyone he meets that, "The sky is falling!"

 

He IS the guy going around to all the leaders and rulers that he can find - you know the folks whose job it is to pay attention to these things - to point out that Tarmon Gaidon is "just over the hill, there", and that it's time for them to do their jobs.

 

They of course just want to have meetings and discussions.  But, before you can do that, you have to agree on where.  And, what color and shape the table is.  And, who gets to sit where.  And, who leads.  And who gets to speak first.  And, what's for lunch.  And, whether there will be drinks before the meal or afterward....

 

In short, all they can think to do is to continue onward with their everyday silliness.

 

Rand, all by hislittleownself, with nothing to guide him but his own innate manners and common sense, has shown considerably more restraint than any of the fools really deserve.

[bRANDan]

Hmmm, the Maidens taught Rand in a similar fashion, less public but much more painful. Why not argur that all of the Maidens are harridans who need to be shot? They all decided to beat Rand for his poor choices, thousands of Maidens know about it, therefore it is very public knowledge. Their point or goal was much less important than Cadsuane's, so why is she being picked on. I think her methods are great, not unjust or incorrect in any sense. As a man you have to expect to be slapped or whatever by women if you are rude or deserving of it, it comes with them being the weaker sex (physically). Is it this that you have a problem with? I have only been struck by a girl once, when I was younger, I learned and did not require subsequent lessons. The method IS effective, the goal IS just, the person implementing it IS competent, and her acclamations prove this. She isn't flying by the seat of her pants, she has experience and knowledge which made her realize what must be done. And that same experience/knowledge shows her what is the best course of action. She would be ineffective if she only told him what she thought in private, completely ineffective. Rand has accompished alot of good, but he has crippling flaws. It was his choices which nearly destroyed his army at the hands of the Seanchan. It was his choices that nearly killed Eggy and Avvy and himself, which would have meant end of the world, DO's victory. Cadsuane is there to stop this foolishness of his, if she has to make him appear foolish, so what. His own decisions make him appear foolish to others already, She is only bringing Rand's foolishness to hiw own attention, and he is slowly starting to learn.

[Dbob]

As a man you have to expect to be slapped or whatever by women if you are rude or deserving of it, it comes with them being the weaker sex (physically). Is it this that you have a problem with? I have only been struck by a girl once, when I was younger, I learned and did not require subsequent lessons.

 

You've gotta be kidding here. That's just ridiculous.

[Dbob]

I suppose while we’re on the subject of antique folk wisdom, I may as well mention that my grandmother – who’s one of those grand old southern ladies, told my sisters that the worst kind of cowardice is a woman striking a man she knows won’t hit her back.

 

We can all get back to squabbling now.

 

[Majsju]

I suppose while we’re on the subject of antique folk wisdom, I may as well mention that my grandmother – who’s one of those grand old southern ladies, told my sisters that the worst kind of cowardice is a woman striking a man she knows won’t hit her back.

 

We can all get back to squabbling now.

 

 

I think Cadusane expects Rand to eventually attempt to get back at her, which obviously will fail misreably.