How did I miss this so long

[Majsju]

Maj -

 

What you're describing for Cadsuane is a rigidity of thought that is incapable of adapting to present circumstance.

 

That is the product of an ossified soul.

 

The need to adapt comes when something is not working. From the books it is obvious that Cadsuanes methods are working.

You know, if it is not broken, do not fix it.

 

ADVICE is given in private.  ORDERS are given (primarily) in public

 

Now that is a new interpretation of the words I have never seen before. New edition of Merriam-Webster?

[Graendals favourite]

Excuse me but this is ridiculous, Cairhein, the battle against Illian, mobilizing the Aiel, his plans for the Seanchan, Dumai’s wells, etc. All of these involve military decisions taken by a general in the field. His chain of command is painfully obvious. The only time you see him fighting as a “soldier” is when he get’s attacked/attacks forsaken, and quite frankly that’s really not even the same thing.

There are military decisions involved but they are not made by Rand. Rand lets people know what he wants done, and they do them. Cairhien and mobilising the Aiel was the same thing, Rand decided that Couladin must be stopped and Cairhien saved, so the Aiel clans that had agreed to follow him did this. The war in Cairhien was pieced together by the Aiel chiefs and Lan, though Rand and the Cairhienin and Tairen representatives were present to know what was happening. The Battle against Illian was planned by Mat and Bashere, yet Rand's part was to duel with Sammael. Dumai's wells was of course none of Rand's doing, his allies rescued him on their own. To the last, exactly, yet that is really the only time he does take part in a war. In Cairhien he fought like a soldier, targeting Shaido, while he was being kept safe. It is not for a general to fight in a war, and furthermore Rand is not a general, he is a political leader. There are a few Whitecloaks who have been described as good soldiers, but not up to thinking on their own: Rand cannot afford to take such a role, and he cannot take the general's role either, he must lead where to fight and which wars.

[Dbob]

There are military decisions involved but they are not made by Rand. Rand lets people know what he wants done, and they do them. Cairhien and mobilising the Aiel was the same thing, Rand decided that Couladin must be stopped and Cairhien saved, so the Aiel clans that had agreed to follow him did this. The war in Cairhien was pieced together by the Aiel chiefs and Lan, though Rand and the Cairhienin and Tairen representatives were present to know what was happening. The Battle against Illian was planned by Mat and Bashere, yet Rand's part was to duel with Sammael. Dumai's wells was of course none of Rand's doing, his allies rescued him on their own. To the last, exactly, yet that is really the only time he does take part in a war. In Cairhien he fought like a soldier, targeting Shaido, while he was being kept safe. It is not for a general to fight in a war, and furthermore Rand is not a general, he is a political leader. There are a few Whitecloaks who have been described as good soldiers, but not up to thinking on their own: Rand cannot afford to take such a role, and he cannot take the general's role either, he must lead where to fight and which wars.

 

Oh come on, that's hair splitting of monumental proportions. The same logic - Matt isn't a general either because he didn't sharpen everyone's sword.

[Graendals favourite]

The difference is that Mat knows what he is doing, being a general, and he has earned his place as one. His soldiers know that following him is a good way to stay alive, and if not it will still be to a good purpose.

 

Rand's role is of a necessity political, where he does not personally fight the Shadow, political meaning to gather a force to combat the Shadow in the Last Battle. It is a given, by the Prophecies, that Rand is to fight the Shadow in the Last Battle if humanity is to have any chance. However, nowhere is anything said about him leading others, there is nothing putting him to the top of some chain of command. He is to rally support for the Light, yes; he is to force others to his way of thinking, no. This is not a personal war of Rand's, any more than it concerns only Aes Sedai. The first discussion between Rand and Taim is a good example, though Rand does other suspect things in that relationship too, especially with his badges: the only way he will have allies is to force people into submission, but that is not reality, that is not his place. Even if Taim were in the Light, he could not contest Rand because he is irreplaceable, but that does not make Rand a worthy leader.

[aevogt]

But Rand did in fact plan the campaign against the Seanchan.  He had to come up with something on the fly as they were in the process of invading Illian.  This from Fedwin Morr who noted all the supply wagons when he was scouting around Ebou Dar.

 

Bashere, a general himself, comments that Rand's plan is a good one, up to a point.  Bashere tries to get Rand to withdraw twice before the disaster at the end but, and this is important, Rand is in charge so the attacks continue, even when they are outnumbered 10 to 1 in fighting men and better than 2-1 in channelers.  Rand is down to fewer than 40 Ashaman and the Seanchan bring in more than 100 Damane.

 

But Rand, rejecting all advice, tried to crush them with Callandor and killed some of his own force.

 

This was a disaster that could have been avoided.  

 

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, the initial campaign was a good thing, and well conceived too, to halt the advance of the Seanchan. Particularly the parts including channelling were Rand's planning. However, I do think he takes too much for granted his position at the head of the Black Tower, considering it is mostly Taim's creation. If Taim disagrees with Rand, depending on the circumstances most may follow him. The last part I guess showed Rand's inexperience.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It was also a situation that could have been salvaged if Rand had known how to use Callandor more effectively.

 

There really isn't anyone ( other than LTT ) who can teach him that, is there?

 

Alexander didn't always make the right decisions in his first few battles either.  He, like everyone who survives such things, learned from his mistakes and eventually made better decisions than anybody he faced.

 

Rand is learning.  Pretty fast, too.

 

But, GF does have a very valid point.  His position is primarily political.  The problem is that there isn't the time to do things in the political way and get all the ducks in a row before TG kicks off.  He's forced by time to cut corners and shortcut processes that would ordinarily take decades.

[Bob T Dwarf]

For those of you who think Rand is so incompetent.  Especially politically.

 

Who ordered taxes redressed?

Who ordered grain shipped to Cairhien to ameliorate the famine?

Who gathered together the original thinkers and created the first University cum Think Tank the world had seen in 3000 years?

Who, because he was too weighed down with other things, sent out Perrin to find Masema and get him to stop his depredations, rather than do it himself?

 

Ahhh, yes, that's right.  It was that great humanitarian Cadsuane Melindrin.

[Luckers]

Military officers don’t go into their commands to earn “obedience” or “respect.” They have a job to do, do it well and you do get more respect than simply that of rank, that can be earned, but so can disrespect, say by being made to look like a weak fool buy some loose cannon running around that you won’t discipline, striking a superior is treason in any army I’ve ever heard of.

 

No, but they also don't go into their commands without having made their way through the ranks. Their role infers an immediate expectation of respect that they may or may not uphold--but there is enough there for that at least.

 

Rand is not, however, a military officer. He has not gone through the ranks, and whilst his successes have educated him, it does not infer the need for immediate respect. Beyond that he is not Cadsuane's superior.

 

Dbob, go back and read my previous post--i address the reasons why all of what occured is nessasary.

 

Cadsuane isn’t teaching anything useful. She slaps him in public, humiliates him, and treats him like an idiot. There’s no way that’s helping him with his command. That’s undermining his command.

 

Again, you would have done well to have read the thread before posting, but ok... Cadsuane is teaching him something useful, and if you don't want to take my word for it, take that of Min's infalliable visions.

 

But if you do want to take my word for it, then yes she is... she slaps him in public, humiliates him, and treats him like an idiot... when he is behaving like and idiot. That right there is helpful--the desire to not look like an idiot is forcing him to think before he speaks and acts, and that is a massive tag on her part.

 

As for it helping his 'command'. Well for starters he doesn't have a command. He has a mission, and it helps his mission but helping him to not be a complete fool. Beyond that it doesn't really undermine him either... people expect Aes Sedai to leave others looking like fools, and Cadsuane more than most. Being spanked by her isn't particularily shameful.

 

Doesn’t matter if she’s there voluntarily; she’s also there without an invitation. We know what the author intends for her, I just find the story line completely and absurdly implausible. Her character is just another in a long line of unreasonable bullies that the other characters just put up with. She certainly isn’t going to teach anyone manners; she doesn’t know what that is.

 

Go read the thread champ. Want to comment in that way fine, but at least have the respect to address those that have commented on it already.

 

There's a formula for how one declines an illegal order.  That formula does not include attempting to humiliate your superior officer in public. Attempting to humiliate a superior officer in public is called Gross Insubordination.

 

Rand is not her superior officer champ. I addressed that on the last page.

 

There's also a protocol for advising generals and rulers.  Step one of that protocol is : DO IT IN PRIVATE.

 

Actually there isn't buddy. And certainly not for figures leading the human race against and evil deity. Again though, that was addressed.

 

And, unlike what many of you claim, Rand has never been unwilling to take advice.  He has only been unwilling to put up with obstructive attitudes

 

Hmm. Logain, warning him about Taim. Or maybe Bashere telling him to withdraw from Altara?

 

Rand's blindness was nearing the same degree as Elaida before Cadsuane came along. Respect her for that, if nothing else.

 

And, no matter how reasonable you may find it that some rulers are put-off by having to cede authority to him, it isn't at all reasonable under the circumstances.  Tarmon Gai'don is on the horizon, or hadn't you heard?  Business is nowhere near usual, anymore.  Maybe it will be again, but, for now, there's a whole new set of priorities, and all of those dingbats need to get with the program.  Yesterday.

 

Addressed that. Read before you post please.

 

For clarity having said that i feel the need to state that i have no problem with people disagreeing with what i said, but i do have a problem with people commenting on issues i addressed as if they had never been raised. So far people have commented on the needs of Rand as the leader, and the importance of subordinates to fall in line with generals as if they are new thoughts--i wrote about why this was different, if you disagree fine, but at least have the decency to respond.

 

What part of "an Aes Sedai can tell any, repeat ANY, lie if she believes it to be true", don't you get?  Just because she truly believes her actions are in Rand's best interest does not mean that they are.

 

I get all of it, but saying that doesn't alter the fact that Cadsuane stated clearly that she would act in his best interest, not the towers and not her own. She is an intelligent, self-actualized woman with no form of unhealthy respect for the Tower--or did YOU miss that?

 

She said she would support Rand over the Tower and over herself, and you have nothing that indicates that in any way she is acting under delusions that would lead her astray. Indeed, given Min's viewing I would catagorically and utterly state that you are wrong here.

 

I never said she was stupid.  She knows the Prophesies.  She knows Rand has to be at TG.  Of course she's going to do whatever she can to see that he lives long enough to get there.  Nothing remarkable in anything she's done in that regard.

 

She only has the position she does BECAUSE Rand knows he needs advice from a wiser head.  Moiraine has been gone.  He needs a replacement.  Cadsuane is the only one available who might fit that bill.  So, he let her bull her way in. 

 

Except, again, Min specifies that Cadsuane's wisdom is specifically required. And he did not 'let her bull her way in'. She was forced to bull her way in because of his resistance to hearing any advice. If she'd done anythign else he would not have listened, and as you, and more improtantly Min, have stated he needed that advice.

 

And, sadly, he puts up with her nonsense.  Which only proves how badly he needs a COMPETENT advisor.  Whose first advice would be to have Cadsuane shot.

 

Oh? It seems to me that the advice of Verin, the other competant Aes Sedai around, had nothing in it about shooting Cadsuane. Of course she would have probably have needed to explain the concept of gun powder to Rand before it was done, so maybe she was just being lazy.

 

Rand is leading an Army, he’s not governing nations. That would most definitely make him a military officer and not a politician.

 

Whatever Rand’s personal F*** ups are, we were talking Cadsuane, and her personal F*** ups. If you want to talk Rand, I’m happy to switch f*** ups.

 

I find her whole story line completely unbelievable.

 

Rand is leading the human race, and that makes him neither a politician or a general. Either way you need to go back and read the post others have made before you post.

 

The problem is you fail to think it all the way through.  ADVICE is given in private.  ORDERS are given (primarily) in public.  Cadsuane doesn't offer advice. She gives orders.  Very, very publicly.

 

I addressed that, so perhaps before repeating the same old litany you'd like to respond.

 

Excuse me but this is ridiculous, Cairhein, the battle against Illian, mobilizing the Aiel, his plans for the Seanchan, Dumai’s wells, etc. All of these involve military decisions taken by a general in the field. His chain of command is painfully obvious. The only time you see him fighting as a “soldier” is when he get’s attacked/attacks forsaken, and quite frankly that’s really not even the same thing.

 

Mmm. And changing laws, setting up accademies, creating trade agreements are all not military. Again bud, go back and read my last post... i get into detail about why the view of Rand as purely a military figure does not work.

 

See this is precisely where this argument lies. Rand is not a child, whether he acts immaturely or not. He’s an adult. Try, just try treating adults, no matter how silly their behavior, as a child and see if they thank you for it; see if they listen, see if they want you around.

 

Who cares if they want you around, if an immature adult is leading the human race in its last, darkest hour, then it needs to be forced to mature. Embarressment and humiliation are about the only methods to achieve that.

 

If Rand was acting like a child--and he was--then he not only deserves, but needs to be treated like a child. How else is he to learn?

 

Rand doesn’t ask Cadsuane to stay based on anything she does, he was going to toss her based on her behavior, Its Min, Lets repeat that it’s Min, that got him to keep her around. Cadsuane had already failed, let’s repeat that. Cadsuane had already offended to the point that Rand was going to toss her.

 

And why does Min get him to keep her around. Repeat it a couple of times, it may sink in that way. Cadsuane had not already failed, by the way. Do you really see her paying attention to him... er... 'tossing' her? It's probably good that Rand didn't true. It probably would have proved painful for him.

 

The last thing Rand needs is scolding and patronizing condescension, form a bunch of women who are failed in their own attempts to make a better world. He needs support and counsel from people he trusts and cares about. People hopefully who are competent in the fields he needs to become proficient in.

 

None of that is Cadsuane.

 

Well, firstly, Rand does need patronising and condescension. He's been acting like a child, and nothing else has sunk in till Cadsuane employed those tactics. Secondly, Cadsuane isn't a bunch of women. She's one. And she's failed only in two matters. Thirdly, Rand does not trust anyone, and those he cares about he doesn't let close enough to advise him. Thats why Cadsuane's success is so remarkable. Finally Cadsuane is very competent in the majority of fields he needs to be.

 

Alexander didn't always make the right decisions in his first few battles either.  He, like everyone who survives such things, learned from his mistakes and eventually made better decisions than anybody he faced.

 

Rand is learning.  Pretty fast, too.

 

And he died young, and ultimately as a failure--his empire collapsed. I addressed this in my last post--go read it.

 

For those of you who think Rand is so incompetent.  Especially politically.

 

Who ordered taxes redressed?

Who ordered grain shipped to Cairhien to ameliorate the famine?

Who gathered together the original thinkers and created the first University cum Think Tank the world had seen in 3000 years?

Who, because he was too weighed down with other things, sent out Perrin to find Masema and get him to stop his depredations, rather than do it himself?

 

Ahhh, yes, that's right.  It was that great humanitarian Cadsuane Melindrin.

 

Bob, don't be silly. No one is arguing Rand's abilities, their arguing his shortcomings. He achieved all those things, and alot more besides--but he has issues that will cripple him, much like Alexander, and Cadsuane is addressing that. Again, read my last post--it addresses all this.

[trakand_01]

Cadsuane isn’t teaching anything useful. She slaps him in public, humiliates him, and treats him like an idiot. There’s no way that’s helping him with his command. That’s undermining his command.

 

Again, you would have done well to have read the thread before posting, but ok... Cadsuane is teaching him something useful, and if you don't want to take my word for it, take that of Min's infalliable visions.

 

But if you do want to take my word for it, then yes she is... she slaps him in public, humiliates him, and treats him like an idiot... when he is behaving like and idiot. That right there is helpful--the desire to not look like an idiot is forcing him to think before he speaks and acts, and that is a massive tag on her part.

 

As for it helping his 'command'. Well for starters he doesn't have a command. He has a mission, and it helps his mission but helping him to not be a complete fool. Beyond that it doesn't really undermine him either... people expect Aes Sedai to leave others looking like fools, and Cadsuane more than most. Being spanked by her isn't particularily shameful.

 

Doesn’t matter if she’s there voluntarily; she’s also there without an invitation. We know what the author intends for her, I just find the story line completely and absurdly implausible. Her character is just another in a long line of unreasonable bullies that the other characters just put up with. She certainly isn’t going to teach anyone manners; she doesn’t know what that is.

 

 

I agree with Luckers, Cadsuane is vital for Rand. Rand has become a stone, but he is 'hard' rather than 'strong'. Slate is hard, but it shatters when it falls. Steel is strong but it will bend and retain it's strength, and support. She is there to teach this to him.

 

What she has started with, is humility. The end goal is to bring Rand's emotions back to him. Certainly we know he is capable of love, but everything else; sorrow, elation etc is lost to him because he is afraid that if he allows himself to feel sorrow, or show happiness or any of the other emotions, either he will be too weak to do what he needs to do, or his enemies will use it against him. We know that he sees 'weakness' as his biggest failure - he thinks that keeping min with him is a weakness.

 

Cadsuane is not so much humiliating him in public for her own gain, as reminding him that he is only a man. He may hold a grand title and have an important job to do, but underneath it all he's a man, and he's being an ar$e. Words roll off Rand, he's grown up with Mat - he's got a witty answer for everything, actions are the only thing that will wake him up.

 

Personally I think she's trying to humiliate him to the point where he's either so angry or so embarrassed that he bursts into tears. Yes she's bullying him, humiliation is the bully's oldest tool but she's not stupid and in reality, her sole intention is to soften him up, not to humiliate him.

 

As for undermining his command... I'm not sure his command really applies to Cadsuane? Yes she has to abide by certain things the Aes Sedai have agreed they will do for or on behalf of him, but as she wasnt there when these things were agreed, how far can she really be held to them? She's also ancient and he would be an utter fool to ignore her advice and guidance.

[Dbob]

Hey I’m not arguing the way the story is written. I just find it completely implausible. Rand is an ass no argument there either. But I find it implausible that he’s somehow “stone,” he whines ad nauseum, I would think someone who’s emotions are stone wouldn’t care how many maidens get killed, and certainly wouldn’t obsess over it. I find it implausible that you help someone through belligerence and humiliation. I find it implausible that someone who’s hard as steel doesn’t simply off her. Why should he care about Min, her viewings or whether the whole world goes to hell in a handbasket, he has no more emotions remember.

 

I think that as far as characterizations go, this is one of R.J’s weakest plotlines.

 

[Dbob]

 

Dbob, go back and read my previous post--i address the reasons why all of what occured is nessasary.

 

 

Again, you would have done well to have read the thread before posting, but ok... Cadsuane is teaching him something useful, and if you don't want to take my word for it, take that of Min's infalliable visions.

 

But if you do want to take my word for it, then yes she is... she slaps him in public, humiliates him, and treats him like an idiot... when he is behaving like and idiot. That right there is helpful--the desire to not look like an idiot is forcing him to think before he speaks and acts, and that is a massive tag on her part.

 

As for it helping his 'command'. Well for starters he doesn't have a command. He has a mission, and it helps his mission but helping him to not be a complete fool. Beyond that it doesn't really undermine him either... people expect Aes Sedai to leave others looking like fools, and Cadsuane more than most. Being spanked by her isn't particularily shameful.

 

 

Go read the thread champ. Want to comment in that way fine, but at least have the respect to address those that have commented on it already.

 

Rand is not her superior officer champ. I addressed that on the last page.

 

 

Actually there isn't buddy. And certainly not for figures leading the human race against and evil deity. Again though, that was addressed.

 

 

I did read your post, I just don't agree with you, and, well, there it is.

[Brooke]

Hey I’m not arguing the way the story is written. I just find it completely implausible. Rand is an ass no argument there either. But I find it implausible that he’s somehow “stone,” he whines ad nauseum, I would think someone who’s emotions are stone wouldn’t care how many maidens get killed, and certainly wouldn’t obsess over it. I find it implausible that you help someone through belligerence and humiliation. I find it implausible that someone who’s hard as steel doesn’t simply off her. Why should he care about Min, her viewings or whether the whole world goes to hell in a handbasket, he has no more emotions remember.

 

I think that as far as characterizations go, this is one of R.J’s weakest plotlines.

 

 

I tend to some what agree here. I would not welcome, nor except help by some one who treated me like Cadsuane treats Rand. Not only would I not put up with it, I'd not put up with her. But for the most part I'm much more stuborn in some ways and a lot more uncaring than Rand when it comes to the female characters in these books. I want to see them all put in their places. Besides, Rand is just a big softy. If he was hard he would have no probably killing women. Even though he's seen what they can do and how well they can defend and protect themselves he still has a hard time killing women.

[aevogt]

Let's not forget that even though Cadsuane (and her cronies) thought the plan to remove the taint from Saidin,  she fully supported him in the attempt.  I think that's fairly eloquent evidence that she will support him, above all else, unless she is positive he is wrong.  

 

Cleansing Saidin is, without question, exactly the opposite of Tower goals, as untainted male channelers would reduce the innate power that the White Tower holds over the world.  

 

She did it anyhow.

 

Why?  Bacause it is the right thing for Rand to do.

 

Merise went to the Rebels to bring Rand's bonding proposal.

 

Why?  "Because Cadsuane, she asked me and the Dragon Reborn, he asked Cadsuane"

 

Don't get me wrong, I personally think she is a harridan but the simple fact of the matter is that "personal isn't the same as important"

 

 

 

[Snowy Dawn]

``Besides, Rand is just a big softy. If he was hard he would have no probably killing women. Even though he's seen what they can do and how well they can defend and protect themselves he still has a hard time killing women.''

 

Ahem.... This is the way that men are raised both in the Two Rivers and in the Borderlands, as we learn at several points in the WoT. Recall that Mat has the same inhibition. Tuon finds it endearing, according to her POV in Knife of Dreams, but she has to kill a woman who is trying to kill Mat but whom Mat cannot bring himself to kill. A borderlander will, we are told, take a knife in the ribs before he will see harm come to a woman. Or have you forgotten all that?

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, again also - I'm in favor of Cadsuane's stated goals.

 

It's her methods I abhor,

 

( those and her blithe assumption that she alone of the entire human race is incapable of self-deception. )

[Mr Ares]

It's her methods I abhor,

 

( those and her blithe assumption that she alone of the entire human race is incapable of self-deception. )

Her effective methods which are no harsher than necessary? Also, when does she make this assumption, or anything even resembling it? Or are you just making assumptions for her?

[Bob T Dwarf]

When she appoints herself the arbiter of how Rand should behave.

 

Rand never went to her and said, " I have this inter-personal skills problem.  Could you help me with that?  Whatever methods you like."

 

She walked into the situation, cold, and made a snap decision.  "This boy needs correcting.  I know the perfect way to do that.  It'll be for his own best good."  That's three very big assumptions she had to have made, right there.

 

EDIT:

 

In CoS, after Fain slashes Rand, and they're all bouncing down the road back to the Sun Palace, she gets Min to tell her about Rand's captivity by the Tower AS.  Her immediate response?

And Cadsuane ... Cadsuane touched Rand's pale face, brushed strands of hair from his forehead.  " Do not be afraid, boy," she said softly.  "They made my task harder, and yours, but I will not hurt you more than I must."  Min turned to ice inside.

 

A fourth big assumption was that there was no way to help him without hurting him as well.

[trakand_01]

 

She walked into the situation, cold, and made a snap decision.  "This boy needs correcting.  I know the perfect way to do that.  It'll be for his own best good."  That's three very big assumptions she had to have made, right there.

 

But Cadsuane didnt just get up one day and think "Sigh... bored... what shall I do... I know!..." She DIDNT make a snap decision, she had planned this out probably years before he was even born. She knew full well that he would come, and this would be her role. Probably her last role.

 

She came out of retirement for this. She has studied men who channel in detail, and not considering the Kin, she is the oldest-known Aes Sedai. For me, I think it quite obvious that Cadsuane knows something we dont, and she's acting on it.

 

At the end of the day, like a sulky teenager (which he is only just not, any longer), Rand is incapable of accepting that his attitude isnt helping, and that sooner or later he's going to come across someone he can't argue or shout down. Like Cadsuane.

 

Better it be her that teach him the lesson than someone Rand desperately needs to get onside.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Her effective methods which are no harsher than necessary?

 

Now, who is making assumptions?  First you assume that her methods are effective.  Then you assume that they are no harsher than necessary.

 

Those are purely subjective judgements on your part.

[Majsju]

She walked into the situation, cold, and made a snap decision.  "This boy needs correcting.  I know the perfect way to do that.  It'll be for his own best good."  That's three very big assumptions she had to have made, right there.

 

No, she approaches Rand, and initially pushes him a little as a test to see what he is made of. Once she has done that, as well as studying the overall situation does she makes a decision how to get involved.

 

Now, who is making assumptions?  First you assume that her methods are effective.  Then you assume that they are no harsher than necessary.

 

The books speak for themselves, her methods are effective. And harsher than necessary? She has on occasion told him he is wrong, when he has been. She has slapped him after having repeatedly told him to mind his manners. Keep in mind that Rand promised to mind his manners when she gave her terms to agree on Rands request to become his advisor. Everytime he slips, he is breaking his word.

[Bob T Dwarf]

What we have here is a situation akin to two people who meet on a path across a railroad track.  They then proceed to stand there and argue about who needs to defer to whom.  Who needs to step aside so that the other can proceed.

 

Meanwhile a train is bearing down.  The engineer is sounding the horn, blowing the whistle, and clanging the bell.  They look up, see the train and go right on arguing.

 

Has it occurred to anybody that one of the things Rand is there to teach people without "hurting them more than he must", is that there are times when precedence and social niceties aren't worth a fig?  That he's there to knock both of the fools into the mud so that they don't get run-over by the train?

 

Let them think whatever they like about him afterwards, if he manages to get them safely out of the way in time.

[aevogt]

I think it was Cadsuane who tells an unconscious and badly injured Rand "They've made my job harder but I won't hurt you more thatn I must."  Min was the only one who heard her say it.  Min now trusts Cadsuane in reference to her viewing.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think "trust" is too strong a word.

 

Because of her experience with her viewings, she accepts that Rand and the Asha'man will learn something they don't want to know from her.  But, I don't think trust for Cadsuane, or trust for what she will teach them enters into it.

[Dbob]

 

She has slapped him after having repeatedly told him to mind his manners.

 

This always kills me. She assaults him to teach him manners. Perhaps next she'll cut off his arms to teach him kindness.

 

Rand: (sulking) You’re a nasty, dried up old harridan, with a god complex.

 

Cadsuane: (slapping him) You must have manners! (smashes teapot over his head) Manners Dog! (jumps on his back yanking his hair out) MANNERS! (kicking him in the groin repeatedly) I WILL NOT TOLERATE BAD MANNERS!!!!!!!!!!! (beating him with a chair leg)

 

LOL

 

The only reason her methods are written as effective is because R.J. has some kind of BDSM Kink/Undertone thing going on.