Sexuality in Randland

[avacraft]

Has anyone else noticed that RJ has put in a little lesbianism but no gay guys in the series.  I mean, there is that sea folk windfinder and the Cairhienin noblewoman who Caddy blackmails that they were pillow friends.  We then notice that the windfinder would be charged with breaking her marriage-vows for having a pillow friend.  In KOD Tarna reflects on the fact that there are many novices who become pillow friends.  How Elaida tells Tarna that her and Meidani used to be pillow friends.  How Galina made approaches to Tarna to become pillow friends.  There are all these girl on girl homosexuality examples but no gay guys whatsoever that I've been able to find.  Why is that???

[Viezael]

I think the answer is:  He's a certain type of biased male author. 

 

Lol No offense to RJ--love his writing--he was/is a great guy, but come on-- Rand gets 3 women, in Aiel culture, having 2 wives is okay, but no two men one woman marriages (that I remember, at least).  Women are supposed to be the "powerful" ones in this land too...whatever lol. *rolls eyes*

 

He also seems completely comfortable talking about girls being lesbians, but not guys being gay.  It's weird, but the way it seems to be. 

 

 

[aevogt]

That reminds me.  At the end of LoC, Galina refers to I think it was Elza, maybe Erian, one of the sisters thaqt lost a Warder in Rand's escape attempt, as a Gleaner Green

 

Anyone know what that is? 

 

I got the impression Galina was trying to seduce the other AS in some fashion as she admits to wants to "admire those porcelain features unruffled" or something to that effect.

 

[stoper]

And thanks god he is "biased male author".

First book I'll read about gay shits, will be the first book I'll burn with pleasure.

Thanks, but no thanks.

[avacraft]

Well its not like he goes into detail or anything, he just writes that there are these girl-girl couples but he never even hints that a guy likes a guy except for a few guys he has mentioned might not feel that way about women.  (can't remember which guys this has been mentioned about)  But no out right clues.

[DuDZiK]

And thanks god he is "biased male author".

First book I'll read about gay shits, will be the first book I'll burn with pleasure.

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

Wow... learned more about you in this post than I would have wanted to know...

[Viezael]

I don't like a lot of sex in books I read as a general rule, so I'm glad he doesn't go into detail about things like that. (This isn't a romance novel).

 

But, I'm curious why you're ok with lesbian relationships in his book and not gay relationships, stoper?  I've noticed some people are like this, and frankly it doesn't make any sense to me.  I can see being against gay/lesbian relationships, or supporting them, but I don't understand why some are split--seems like a double standard.

[Gentled Ben]

It probably *is* a double standard, but meh...I find (attractive) lesbians extremely erotic, yet gay men, handsome or not,...yuck! I don't know why that is, but i don't feel like I should apologize for it. I suppose I'm just wired that way, and a lot of other straight men are, too.  :-\

[Viezael]

lol You men are weirdos ;)

 

 

[Morindin]

Viezael,

 

Probably has to do with the macho gean present in all males. 2 women together means the guy thinks he can be with both... machos usually do not realize that lesbian women are usually not into guys...

 

has for gay guys... I beleive guys who have a problem with it is usually guys not feeling secured about themselves... I am into women 100% so I do not feel treathen or bothered with gay guys... so guess what I let them live and respect them nonetheless...

 

Anyway this is just my opinion  ;D

[Majsju]

RJ made a comment about this, will try to dig up the quote later.

There are male gays in randland, we just have not met anyone who is.

 

That there is a lot going on in the WT...Well, you have a great many women living isolated when they hit puberty and start thinking about sex. Of course the number of pillow friends will be a great deal higher than in the rest of the world. Some just experimenting, getting that itch out of the system, some stay gay for the rest of their lives.

 

Kick out the wives from the BT, and wait a couple of years...

 

Women marrying several men, we have rumours that some Greens marry their Warders. As in, more than one.

 

 

[stoper]

That's just how I feel it.

I look at this "pillow friends" more like some make out between two girls in cold White Tower's nights :P not like real lesbian relationships.

And if you tell me that Elayne and Aviendha are pillow friends while Rand is away, I'm cool with that.

But the other possibility... Perrin gay, Rhuarc and Bael or Moridin and Demandred pillow friends... I better kill myself.

[Baldar]

At times I got the impression that Aram had feelings for Perrin that weren't strictly platonic. Also, I think Jaret Byar may go "that way".

[Paviel]

I know Myrelle gave Lan a hickey in aCoS (Egwene called it a bruise on his neck, but I'm pretty sure it was actually a hickey), and I seem to remember something to the effect that she gives her other Warders similar treatment too.

 

So I'm pretty sure that polyandry exists in WoT, but it's probably confined to the Green Ajah.

[professorskar]

Yeah, I don't think all pillow friends were completely lesbians.  Look at Siuan and Moiraine...they both still talked about boys with each other, Moiraine says she knows the man she'll marry, Siuan and Gareth Bryne...

 

As for the polygamy being a male fantasy, I'm not sure I completely agree.  There might be a more practical reason for having multiple wives as an Aiel, but no multiple husbands.  That being, the Waste is pretty brutal, and it probably helps keep populations up (and multiple wives can replace that various Maidens who go off to never have children, although some do anyway).

[Luckers]

I honestly don't see an issue in it. Yeah having a gay character might be nice, but honestly i wouldn't really want one in there just for the sake of it. The various lesbian relationships make sense in light of the Tower's gender structure--and more than that, they make sense as the only way these woman could find a partner strong enough to be their equal.

 

And id have no issue either to learn that barious characters sexuality informed them even if it was never stated. Notice that Moridin has two very good looking women as his slaves and seems to have made no sexual move against them? What about Taim... most men who set up power structures like his surround themselves with female groupies, where are his? Like Dumbledore, i loves him before i knew he was gay, once i did it was like... yeah, that makes sense. Cool.

 

 

Stoper, you may want to tone down your responses a bit--i have no issue with your opinion, but the way you are phrasing it is getting to be borderline offensive.

[BKVMC]

I  as another  posted  already  said  do not really like to  see alot of  sexuality  in the books i read it doesnt bother me  but usually takes away from the  storys ( unless the sexuality IS the story hehe) the girls in the white tower are almost  in a prison like situation  some for quite a few years  and are kept away from  males as a general rule its not  unusual for people in that situation to  adjust their  "tastes" in regards to  sexuality,  Look at the sexual behavior  in prison systems  im sure those guys  dont consider themselves gay :)

 

having said that  i dont comprehend how one persons sexuality  would  ever make ME want to  kill myself.

[safwd]

I too think that the pillow friends idea makes sense in this world, especially in the WT where there are very few men.

And face it, most male authors would find it easier to write about two women then two men, i would bet most female authors would also.

I knew alot of guys that would not read te Anne Rice Vampire books because Lestat said that he loved Louis. Even though her rendition of Vampires could not have sex this still freaked them out too much. I never understood it.

And Dumbledore being outed caused alot of discontent with people, but many also thought those books were going to turn our kids into witches.

Its a funny funny world out there, and alot of the time it is sad also.

[YoungKing]

Viezael,

 

Probably has to do with the macho gean present in all males. 2 women together means the guy thinks he can be with both... machos usually do not realize that lesbian women are usually not into guys...

 

has for gay guys... I beleive guys who have a problem with it is usually guys not feeling secured about themselves... I am into women 100% so I do not feel treathen or bothered with gay guys... so guess what I let them live and respect them nonetheless...

 

Anyway this is just my opinion 

 

That's a pretty stereotypical comment. I'd say sexist but apparently you're male.

 

Its nothing to do with a "macho gene", that's utter crap. Most guys that see two girls together is in pornography, and they are good looking, and they probably aren't actually gay, so those women robably like guys too. Real lesbians though I don't think many guys would find attractive.

 

A lot of homophobia has to do with how people are brought up. If you're parents are conservative, chances are they aren't into gay people and will instill that onto you. That's nothing to do with being insecure, just your upbringing, although yes, a lot of guys are insecure as well.

 

Now that that's cleared up.

 

I think Maj hit it on the head pretty well.  The girls who are "pillow friends" are generally all novices who are alone and scared at the White Tower, going through puberty etc etc.

 

As far as gays/lesbians are concerned in the WoT, who really cares. This doesn't have to be some pathetic, politically correct world where one of the main characters is Jewish, ones African American, ones White, Ones gay, ones a Muslim.

 

YK.

[Luckers]

Well YoungKing, i think there is a difference between hardcore homophobia--the type that leads to gay bashing and all the rest--and the more generic disaproval of gays that you find amongst common suburbia. The first it much more based in insecurity then the second, and the wide pervasity (pervasivity? bah!) of the second doesn't really change that.

 

The interesting thing is that the situation discribed in the Tower is much common, historically speaking, than either the state of homosexuality being taboo, or the modern gay activism and gay culture. Homosexuality in most cultures is treated very much like the Aes Sedai too--as a different form of connection completely, not marriage, but not just 'friends with benefits'. And it wasn't concidered less then the state of marriage either--indeed in many cultures it was the homosexual relationship that served as the primrary source of emotion partnership in a mans life.

 

This was, historically speaking, less common amongst women, though certainly not unheard of. But yeah... it does well to keep in mind that the modern pre-occupation with 'being gay' is in fact the exception. To most the question of preference wouldn't have been raised.

 

 

[Cadsuane]

It'd be "pervasiveness," dear. You're trying to form it the way you would "perversity," which is not the same thing at all, although perversity is, itself, often quite pervasive.  ;D

[Luckers]

Did I say you could come out of your bin? Because I don't think I did.

 

You know what this means, right Kate? AN HOUR IN THE SNAKE PIT!!!

[DuDZiK]

Well YoungKing, i think there is a difference between hardcore homophobia--the type that leads to gay bashing and all the rest--and the more generic disaproval of gays that you find amongst common suburbia. The first it much more based in insecurity then the second, and the wide pervasity (pervasivity? bah!) of the second doesn't really change that.

 

The interesting thing is that the situation discribed in the Tower is much common, historically speaking, than either the state of homosexuality being taboo, or the modern gay activism and gay culture. Homosexuality in most cultures is treated very much like the Aes Sedai too--as a different form of connection completely, not marriage, but not just 'friends with benefits'. And it wasn't concidered less then the state of marriage either--indeed in many cultures it was the homosexual relationship that served as the primrary source of emotion partnership in a mans life.

 

This was, historically speaking, less common amongst women, though certainly not unheard of. But yeah... it does well to keep in mind that the modern pre-occupation with 'being gay' is in fact the exception. To most the question of preference wouldn't have been raised.

 

*nods*

 

There's hardcore bias, then there's reluctant tolerance, then there's acceptance. People who dislike gays can tolerate it's existance, but they don't accept them.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

There's hardcore bias, then there's reluctant tolerance, then there's acceptance. People who dislike gays can tolerate it's existance, but they don't accept them.

 

Some of us accept gays as the imperfect individuals they are. We are all inperfet (we are all sinners would be the way to put it religously). While I do not is homosexuality as "natural" I do not see it as any more "damning" then other frailties that I myself suffer from.  That I disagree with a practice or lifestyle does not mean that I "judge" individuals based soley on that practise. There are gays I like, gays that I'm indifferent about and gays that I dislike.

 

That one disagrees with a person's lifestyle does not necessarily mean that you see them as evil or somehow less worthy. 

[Shaidar]

Erm what about that guy who was the captain of the ship bringing Nynaeve, Egwene (and Marigan/Moggy, Nicola and Arene) to Salidar. He didn't like women at all, which Nynaeve found strange.

 

There is also a theory that http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1432&Category=Moridin Moridin is homosexual.