The Show Has Been Cancelled

[LTL]

I'm prepared to give the show a lot of leeway on a lot of things, but I also thought the open was terrible. Not only terrible in an absolute sense, but also a terrible decision to alienate so many book fans immediately. I wonder how many book fans watched the open of epsiode 1 and turned off in disgust as it looked like the writers hadn't even read the books. Certainly it started off the series in a way that was very jarring for a lot of book fans and left them needing to win back trust, which they failed to do for many. 

 

Firstly, in the Moiraine scene, the insertion of "we don't know if it's a boy or a girl" seems jammed in and unnecessary. Even if they want to go the route of "maybe the girls could be the dragon", it'd be far better to do that later on by some conversation between Egwene and Moiraine where Egwene questions the assumption that the dragon must be reborn a male and Moiraine admits that as people don't remember their past lives, there is no way to know for sure that people are reborn the same gender. I think that makes sense within the world and would go down far better with book readers, who by that point would hopefully be more confident that this is simple misdirection for show-only viewers. As is, it came across clunky and immediately alienating.

 

To then follow that with Liandrin's "you make it filthy" just adds insult to injury. In my opinion it's even worse. The darkfriend angle is almost irrelevant. The Black Ajah constantly have to worry about being caught in a lie. They're not going to just casually throw out a pointless lie like that, whatever the circumstances. It being Liandrin vs it being some other Aes Sedai is close to irrelevant in the scene making sense. It becomes clear later on that Aes Sedai know enough about saidin/saidar that they are not ignorant enough to say this so it's just a poorly written scene in my opinion. It feels like it was written as a standalone scene that someone thought would be a good, dramatic open, without regard to the details of what was said.

 

Again though, even if all the criticisms I just laid out were ultimately justifiable in some way, it's still blindingly obvious that a large proportion of book readers are going to watch these first couple of scenes in horror, thinking "what on earth is this I'm hearing?" Book fans could have been some of the strongest proponents of the show if they liked it and they will be the harshest and most vocal critics if they don't like it. I feel like there was a meeting about the opening scenes where the attitude was "let's just hit the book fans with the fact that there are going to be a ton of changes right from the start and then from that starting point they can start to enjoy the show." Unnecessary and incredibly poor decision in my opinion. So many people wanted it to succeed and the writers just needed to work with the book fans a little more in that regard, be a little more gentle with the plot points they want to bring in that deviate from the book rather than "BAM in your face" in scene 1. 

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

I don't know why y'all arguing about the lack of prologue in the wot show... We technically got it, it just wasn't distributed by Amazon..

 

[Ithillian Turambar]

Oh I remember staying up till silly o'clock to watch that lmao

[Raal Gurniss]

On 6/2/2025 at 4:31 AM, Samt said:

That still only puts him on the right planet.  Tatooine may not be as heavily populated as some other planets, but it still has large cities.  The odds are definitely millions or billions to 1.  
 

Of course, it’s an oddity of Star Wars (and other similar science fiction) that planets are made to appear smaller and more homogenous.  Every biome that appears on a Star Wars planet is also present on Earth.  But in Star Wars, each planet is mostly allowed one biome.  The Star Wars galaxy has the same amount of biodiversity collectively as the Earth on its own.  This also leads to planets seeming relatively small where every place on the surface of a planet is within a short journey from every other place on that planet.  Even with the vehicles they have, there should be cities that are a days travel apart from each other.

Doesn't strike me as an overly populated planet and they knew where Kenobi was roughly, certainly within walking distance...And given Kenobi was also in walking distance of Luke....

 

 

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Doesn't strike me as an overly populated planet and they knew where Kenobi was roughly, certainly within walking distance...And given Kenobi was also in walking distance of Luke....

 

 

Mos Espa appears to have been a large city able to fill a huge stadium.  And we don’t get any indication that the escape pod was launched in any particular direction.  
 

On the other hand, I suppose it’s from C-3PO’s point of view and he doesn’t know much of anything about what is going on.  It’s conceivable that R2 has actually carefully timed the escape pod launch and has mapped things out.  Considering his primary function is mapping interstellar travel routes, it’s conceivable he might be quite good at figuring out how to land at a certain point on the planet’s surface.  So I guess I talked myself into it being not ridiculously unlikely that he found Obi-wan.

[WoTwasThat]

13 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I don't know why y'all arguing about the lack of prologue in the wot show... We technically got it, it just wasn't distributed by Amazon..

 

Lol. Nice. 

[WoTwasThat]

It’s funny, I started re-reading EotW last night just for fun. I had forgotten so much. Just in the prologue and the first three chapters, using a little exposition between Rand, Matt, Perrin, and… Padan Fain of all people, he basically explains the entire premise of the magic system and the dragon reborn, right down to the breaking, the false dragons, suspicion of the Aes Sedai, a LOT of stuff!!

 

If you go back and read the first few chapters, it will dawn on you how EASY it would have been for the show to have explained a TON with just a few minutes of exposition exactly as it happened in the book!

 

Seriously, and doubters should go back and read:

- The Prologue (just a few pages, and honestly this is the least important part of the explanation, but it immediately makes sense when you read the next couple chapters)

- Chapter 2, page 29 (Moiraine briefly explains the WOT and reincarnation).

- Chapter 3, pages 35-40 (Rand, Matt, Perrin, Fain, and the crowd talk about the magic system, the taint on Saidin, the Dragon, the Breaking, the Dragon Reborn, the false dragons).

 

This is not internal narrative. It is the natural exposition of a few characters. It is relatively short and it could have been recreated easily in the first episode of the show!!

Edited June 4 by WoTwasThat

[king of nowhere]

On 6/2/2025 at 6:34 PM, Jaccsen said:

It is perfectly explained in the books.

 

The Eye is the pool of Saidin and it was created because of prophecy that it would be needed. The entire Eye was set aside after the taint to be ready and waiting for the reborn Dragon.

 

They talk about the Green Man multiple times in Eye. Morraine even tells the reader that she has been there and that need has always played a part in those who have found the Eye.

 

Regardless, the Eye was going to be found by Rand, regardless, because he is the Dragon and it is meant for him. Morraine does not say it around the boys because she does not want them to know that one of them is the Dragon Reborn. A quick aside to Lan in the TV show could have established that point to the audience.

 

The books explain it well. As for how Rand knows how to use it. It is because Lews Therin knew how to use it. The overwhelming source of pure Saidin was used at a subconscious level. Rand could not consciously control it but he was not.

 

As for the forsaken, they felt Saidin, they were drawn to it and the seals were weakening. Rand arriving at the Eye was a beacon.

 

All of this could have been easily handled in the show. It was not difficult. The writers just did there own thing.

Is it actually explained? For real, not "there is a piece of fine print and you can ask in internet forums what it meant"?

I honestly don't remember because the first two books are my least favorite and i have been skipping them in my latest rereads.

 

Anyway, most of that is explained later. The eye was made during the breaking according to prophecy, and we see that in rhuidean. We also see the green man in rhuidean. 

My impression is that it was a (very successful) author saving throw to justify a weak ending. It works in the books, after you read all of them. It left me utterly confused when i read it first.

Oh, and i don't accept "rand is channeling with ltt memories"; he didn't got those until later books.

 

Now, it could have been done more faithfully in the tv show. Explain that the eye was made during the breaking because it was foretold it was needed. Takes one minute of exposition.

Cut the green man; his one contribution was sacrificing to kill a foresaken, so just remove the green man and one foresaken and the scene plays out the same. 

Explain that you have 4 ta'veren, and they warp chances, so you are counting on them to stumble on the eye. Again, takes one minute.

Then it can play more or less like in the books. Make rand a bit less cheesy; he can overpower a foresaken with raw strenght with a pool of pure saidin to tap, but traveling and entering t'a'r is a bit too much, plus viewers wouldn't understand it.

Anyway, you can use ishi as the foresaken at the eye, so no need for rand to access t'a'r.

 

That's how i would have tried it

 

 

[notpropaganda73]

lots of discussion here but for what it's worth I re-watched S1 & S2 recently, while waiting for new episodes to drop for S3, and I was surprised by how much I still enjoyed S1 (up to episode 6). Yes there are changes and the opening to the show was really bad, I hated the Dragon "mystery" and the Leavetaking scene was terribly done as well - but I found myself still enjoying the majority of episodes once they got "on the road" so to speak. 

 

S2 was much more disappointing overall to me, apart from one or two excellent scenes and episodes. 

[Samt]

I won’t defend the show in general, but I’d like to point out that the second time reading the series I understood the prologue for the first time.  It’s maybe an interesting hook, but it doesn’t explain anything in a way that stands alone.  I literally didn’t understand who these people were or what was happening the first time through.  There was nothing for that information to anchor on so it just slipped away and was forgotten.

[WoTwasThat]

34 minutes ago, Samt said:

I won’t defend the show in general, but I’d like to point out that the second time reading the series I understood the prologue for the first time.  It’s maybe an interesting hook, but it doesn’t explain anything in a way that stands alone.  I literally didn’t understand who these people were or what was happening the first time through.  There was nothing for that information to anchor on so it just slipped away and was forgotten.

I think you may be misremembering. I know I was. Most of what happens in the prologue is explained within the first 50 pages of the book. See my post from yesterday with the specific cites. The prologue, Moiraine’s intro to The Boys, and the crowd’s discussion while assembled around Padan Fain’s wagon (which basically explains everything in the prologue) could have easily all happened in the very first episode of the show. 

[Sabio]

Well not looking good, there is an article that says that "The Wheel of Time not being shopped to other networks after cancellation". 

The Wheel of Time not being shopped to other networks after cancellation

 

My guess is it's just seen as being too expensive for any other network to really want to pursue, will it bring in enough new viewers to make it worthwhile?  I mean I couldn't really see Sony or Amazon saying no if someone like Apple stepped up with a good offer.  But seems like not much effort on Sony or Amazon to sell it and not much effort by other services to acquire it.  To be honest I thought WOT was ok, not great.  I wouldn't subscribe Apple just to see WOT.

 

 

Edited June 4 by Sabio

[king of nowhere]

23 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

It’s funny, I started re-reading EotW last night just for fun. I had forgotten so much. Just in the prologue and the first three chapters, using a little exposition between Rand, Matt, Perrin, and… Padan Fain of all people, he basically explains the entire premise of the magic system and the dragon reborn, right down to the breaking, the false dragons, suspicion of the Aes Sedai, a LOT of stuff!!

 

If you go back and read the first few chapters, it will dawn on you how EASY it would have been for the show to have explained a TON with just a few minutes of exposition exactly as it happened in the book!

 

Seriously, and doubters should go back and read:

- The Prologue (just a few pages, and honestly this is the least important part of the explanation, but it immediately makes sense when you read the next couple chapters)

- Chapter 2, page 29 (Moiraine briefly explains the WOT and reincarnation).

- Chapter 3, pages 35-40 (Rand, Matt, Perrin, Fain, and the crowd talk about the magic system, the taint on Saidin, the Dragon, the Breaking, the Dragon Reborn, the false dragons).

 

This is not internal narrative. It is the natural exposition of a few characters. It is relatively short and it could have been recreated easily in the first episode of the show!!

maybe you are a super-perceptive reader, or maybe you just know what to look for.

yes, of course, now that we know what the prologue is about, it's easy to find the references. just like it's easy to spot the clues once you already know the solution to a mistery.

 

what i remember of my first experience reading the prologue is an endless sequence of name-dropping.

Lews Therin. Elan Morin. Ishamael. Ilyena. Shai'tan. Lord of the morning. Great Lord of the dark. Betrayer of hope. Hundred companions. Kinslayer. Some of those are probably the same person, but for my first reading it was too much information to keep track properly.

The Voice? Singing? Those are capitalized, they clearly means something special. First among Servants? nine rods of dominion? Paaran Disen? Ring of Tamyrlin?

In retrospect, I don't need to know what any of this means. However, I had no way to determine which of those was important, and which wasn't. 

Traveling? Wheel of Time? Creator? True Source? One Power? Sure, now I know that stuff is important, but the first time I read the book, the One Power seemed no more, no less important than Paaran Disen.

Besides, we are in the viewpoint of someone clearly unhinged. Are we even supposed to trust what this guy is experiencing, or are we supposed to watch for clues of unreliable narrator?

All in all, it was too much for me. I just decided to completely ignore the prologue for the time being.

 

Now that I write the issues like this, I think the scene could work, provided that Ishy cuts down with the flowery speech and everyone sticks to one single name. Yes, I know you need to convey that those characters have many names and appellations, but it could be better to give it some time. 

And it could actually work better on television than on book, because television would remove the problem with the unreliable narrator the book was accidentally giving, and it would force Ishy to cut down with the fluff and stick to what's important. 

[WoTwasThat]

10 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

maybe you are a super-perceptive reader, or maybe you just know what to look for.

yes, of course, now that we know what the prologue is about, it's easy to find the references. just like it's easy to spot the clues once you already know the solution to a mistery.

 

what i remember of my first experience reading the prologue is an endless sequence of name-dropping.

Lews Therin. Elan Morin. Ishamael. Ilyena. Shai'tan. Lord of the morning. Great Lord of the dark. Betrayer of hope. Hundred companions. Kinslayer. Some of those are probably the same person, but for my first reading it was too much information to keep track properly.

The Voice? Singing? Those are capitalized, they clearly means something special. First among Servants? nine rods of dominion? Paaran Disen? Ring of Tamyrlin?

In retrospect, I don't need to know what any of this means. However, I had no way to determine which of those was important, and which wasn't. 

Traveling? Wheel of Time? Creator? True Source? One Power? Sure, now I know that stuff is important, but the first time I read the book, the One Power seemed no more, no less important than Paaran Disen.

Besides, we are in the viewpoint of someone clearly unhinged. Are we even supposed to trust what this guy is experiencing, or are we supposed to watch for clues of unreliable narrator?

All in all, it was too much for me. I just decided to completely ignore the prologue for the time being.

 

Now that I write the issues like this, I think the scene could work, provided that Ishy cuts down with the flowery speech and everyone sticks to one single name. Yes, I know you need to convey that those characters have many names and appellations, but it could be better to give it some time. 

And it could actually work better on television than on book, because television would remove the problem with the unreliable narrator the book was accidentally giving, and it would force Ishy to cut down with the fluff and stick to what's important. 

Correct on the names. Cut that stuff out and the scene is easy and awesome. Also, go back and read the chapters I cite if you’ve still got a copy of EOTW. You don’t have to be perceptive - RJ basically spoon feeds a primer on the lore and magic system using narrative of the crowd gathered around Fain. It’s was more obvious than I remembered. This was a layup but somebody in production had very different plans for the series. 

[Jack sjacki]

Totally devastated by the cancellation, although season three did feel lie an ending to me. We find out that Rand has an Army, that Mat is hung and lives, that Egwene wont bow to Rand, that the white tower has fallen on its Face, that Morane beats Lanfear, That Nyn has or not the adam. All in all each story line comes to a conclusion. there is no ring with the nine moons, and Mat doesn't beat Colladin and form the Band of the Red Hand. Suian doesn't join the Rebels. With out these threads there is little to continue on with. To me what killed the show was " two" years between seasons and only eight episodes / hours. If the studio wanted a com parison to GoT they should have followed a successful format. 

In consideration I am sorry the TV show was ever started.

[Samt]

7 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

I think you may be misremembering. I know I was. Most of what happens in the prologue is explained within the first 50 pages of the book. See my post from yesterday with the specific cites. The prologue, Moiraine’s intro to The Boys, and the crowd’s discussion while assembled around Padan Fain’s wagon (which basically explains everything in the prologue) could have easily all happened in the very first episode of the show. 

All I’m saying is that I didn’t understand the prologue the first time I read the books.  And as a consequence of not understanding it, I forgot it.  It may be that a careful read combined with good deduction may have allowed me to understand the prologue.  But I’m also not a below average reader in general and don’t think I am alone in not understanding the prologue without context.  
 

I would say that the book prologue is intended as a hook, not as exposition.  It’s there to make it interesting, not to explain everything right at the beginning.  That said, that may mean it may have been reasonable to start the show with that.  But not as an explanation.  It’s a hook.  

[Mailman]

37 minutes ago, Samt said:

All I’m saying is that I didn’t understand the prologue the first time I read the books.  And as a consequence of not understanding it, I forgot it.  It may be that a careful read combined with good deduction may have allowed me to understand the prologue.  But I’m also not a below average reader in general and don’t think I am alone in not understanding the prologue without context.  
 

I would say that the book prologue is intended as a hook, not as exposition.  It’s there to make it interesting, not to explain everything right at the beginning.  That said, that may mean it may have been reasonable to start the show with that.  But not as an explanation.  It’s a hook.  

I don't really see what there is to be confused about.

 

Initial mentions of titles relating to positions of authority are always unknown till they are fleshed out however those titles in themselves obviously denote significant positions of power even if they are never mentioned again that is obvious.

 

LTT being insane is clear as he is walking and talking calmly amid the bodies and destruction. After he is healed he recognises and is then convinced it is himself that caused the carnage.

 

Betrayer of Hope a clear declaration about how LTT views Ishy.

 

Clear description of LTT and company striking against the dark one and that because of this strike it has caused the madness and destruction that is taking place.

 

The fervour of Ishy talking about their battle shows he is a true believer.

 

Ishy standing at Dragonmount stating it is not over shows us that the following story is connected to what we have just witnessed.

 

All of this feels very obvious to me the hang up appears to be about names and titles which I find confusing as even if they were never mentioned again the fact that they are titles gives them their own gravitas.

 

If I make up a title Lord Zehyr, Master of the Winds, Lord of the three realms, Champion of the Highlands.  You don't need to know what those actually refer to know that they are a person of importance and significance in this world. 

[Blackbyrd]

On 6/3/2025 at 4:50 AM, SinisterDeath said:

I don't know why y'all arguing about the lack of prologue in the wot show... We technically got it, it just wasn't distributed by Amazon..

 

 

Yes! Billy Zane actually did do a decent Ishamael and did deliver in the first volley of lines.... The rest though? Well you want true trash?

 

On 6/2/2025 at 5:47 PM, Elder_Haman said:

There absolutely is. That reason is that he was writing a book, not making a tv show. 

 

I think one thing people keep missing that I know is undoubtedly true is that Jordan wrote his books more in the style of a movie- which honestly is more writerish as movies sprang from books. 

GRRM wrote his series more episodic- more like a TV drama and it was great. However, RJ absolutely went for cinematic scope- it's what makes an ending like LoC hit. Only on the big screen with hundreds of strangers and three hours of total investment is it going to make you walk out just as haunted as it does in the books

[Samt]

10 hours ago, Mailman said:

I don't really see what there is to be confused about.

 

Initial mentions of titles relating to positions of authority are always unknown till they are fleshed out however those titles in themselves obviously denote significant positions of power even if they are never mentioned again that is obvious.

 

LTT being insane is clear as he is walking and talking calmly amid the bodies and destruction. After he is healed he recognises and is then convinced it is himself that caused the carnage.

 

Betrayer of Hope a clear declaration about how LTT views Ishy.

 

Clear description of LTT and company striking against the dark one and that because of this strike it has caused the madness and destruction that is taking place.

 

The fervour of Ishy talking about their battle shows he is a true believer.

 

Ishy standing at Dragonmount stating it is not over shows us that the following story is connected to what we have just witnessed.

 

All of this feels very obvious to me the hang up appears to be about names and titles which I find confusing as even if they were never mentioned again the fact that they are titles gives them their own gravitas.

 

If I make up a title Lord Zehyr, Master of the Winds, Lord of the three realms, Champion of the Highlands.  You don't need to know what those actually refer to know that they are a person of importance and significance in this world. 

I’ve simply stated that I was confused.  Explaining that I shouldn’t have been doesn’t change the fact that I was.  
 

Moreover, your explanation seems to acknowledge the fact that the prologue doesn’t really explain much.  It builds the mystery and sense of history.  It doesn’t tell us who the characters are or how they relate to what happens in chapter 1.  
 

Also, claiming that it quickly becomes clear who the characters of the prologue are in the present story is simply not true.  It takes a few books before it is clear that the Baalzamon of the early books is actually Ishmael from the prologue and not the dark one himself.  Rand being LTT is perhaps clear sooner, but it’s not until Zen Rand that the relationship between the two halves is really resolved.  

[Elder_Haman]

15 minutes ago, Samt said:

Explaining that I shouldn’t have been doesn’t change the fact that I was.  

Exactly!! 
I found the prologue incomprehensible the first time I read it too. 

[WoTwasThat]

12 hours ago, Samt said:

All I’m saying is that I didn’t understand the prologue the first time I read the books.  And as a consequence of not understanding it, I forgot it.  It may be that a careful read combined with good deduction may have allowed me to understand the prologue.  But I’m also not a below average reader in general and don’t think I am alone in not understanding the prologue without context.  
 

I would say that the book prologue is intended as a hook, not as exposition.  It’s there to make it interesting, not to explain everything right at the beginning.  That said, that may mean it may have been reasonable to start the show with that.  But not as an explanation.  It’s a hook.  

Exactly - it’s a hook. And a hell of a hook. And it all starts making sense within the first 50 pages of the book. Any confusion about the prologue would have been resolved by the end of the first episode had Rafe chosen to more closely follow the book. People seem to be misremembering just how much of the lore and magic system RJ clearly explained early on through natural exposition among the Two Rivers folk. 

[Samt]

48 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

Exactly - it’s a hook. And a hell of a hook. And it all starts making sense within the first 50 pages of the book. Any confusion about the prologue would have been resolved by the end of the first episode had Rafe chosen to more closely follow the book. People seem to be misremembering just how much of the lore and magic system RJ clearly explained early on through natural exposition among the Two Rivers folk. 

When did it become clear that Baalzamon of TEoTW was Ishamael?

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Samt said:

When did it become clear that Baalzamon of TEoTW was Ishamael?

Not for quite awhile. 

[Samt]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

Not for quite awhile. 

Yeah.  It’s a rhetorical question in response to the assertion that the prologue was fully explained in the first 50 pages.

[WoTwasThat]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

When did it become clear that Baalzamon of TEoTW was Ishamael?

Not until book 3 or 4. Why does that matter? Ishy is just “bad guy” for a while, and that’s perfectly fine. You don’t need to know exactly who or what he is to get a basic understanding of the lore and magic system within the first few chapters, and very first episode if Rafe had followed the book more closely.