The Show Has Been Cancelled

[Raal Gurniss]

33 minutes ago, Guire said:

Time was one of the big resources this adaptation wasted telling the story that Amazon and Rafe wanted to tell.  A feminist corrective to GoT may have been fine if really well executed.  Keeping 3 male Ta'verran storyline as backbone while squashing and diminishing their stories made the show way worse than it could have been.  If you are going to make a coconut themed dinner don't include steak and asparagus.  I do not solely blame Rafe but in hindsight this show was probably always doomed.

When they started renewing it before a series was even released it was pretty obvious it was doomed, I always assumed either someone producing the show was having an affair with Bezos or someone nearly as high up, either that or blackmail.

[SilentRoamer]

On 5/23/2025 at 9:17 PM, Kaleb said:

Rafe and many of his team have a documented and obvious deep love of the series, and I'm so irritated with this slander. They read the same books as you and many of the "contradictions" are things long-time readers have also understood in the text of the books. There are choices they made that other teams wouldn't have - which is a simple fact of any adaptation - but they made them based on telling Robert Jordan's story as they sincerely understood it.

Lets follow this logic chain to its conclusion.

"They sincerely understood" from reading the Wheel of Time that the Dragon Reborn could have been a woman and inserted a mystery into the show to demonstrate that sincere understanding? Despite the Karetheon cycle, despite all of the other prophecies, despite no false dragon ever being a woman, despite this contradicting the basic lore of the Jordan world with how Saidin and Saidar function. 

I'm not denying that they didn't love the Wheel of Time, maybe they do, but to try and defend some of the decisions as being sincere to the story in their adaption is just not true in all instances. They may have inserted it because they think it improves the story, but it isn't sincere to the source - that's just one instance.

[SilentRoamer]

I'm actually really disappointed, despite my criticisms I think the show was getting better every season. I really wanted to see some sort of conclusion to the story and the last season I enjoyed the most of all 3. 

Wish all the best to the actors and production staff. 

[SilentRoamer]

On 5/24/2025 at 3:21 PM, Elder_Haman said:

He didn’t “attempt to rewrite the books”, he attempted to adapt them to the screen.  That’s a completely different thing. 

Which books were Maksim adapted from?

What story was being told with Maksim that couldn't have been told via other characters?

I don't deny that Rafe may love the books, but he also, clearly, sought to improve and modernise them and tell his own story, unfortunately he can't craft an insert like Sanderson could, in trying to flavour the story in his own way it results in a less than authentic product.

Of course others can and will disagree.

[WheelofJuke]

Older fantasy fans will remember "bad" adaptations of LotR (e.g., Bakshi, Rankin-Bass). 

Or the Chronicles of Narnia for 80s BBC tv. 

Those didn't prevent later better adaptations from occurring. It probably won't be amazon, but I'm certain someone else will take a crack at it....and animation makes more sense than another big budget live-action blockbuster. 

I'm tired of hearing people say, "Because THIS adaptation has failed, there will never be another adaptation." That's a logical fallacy, and even a cursory glance of past fantasy IP history will prove otherwise. 

Might not be soon. But it'll happen. 

Edited May 28 by WheelofJuke
punctumacation

[Elder_Haman]

11 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

Which books were Maksim adapted from?

What story was being told with Maksim that couldn't have been told via other characters?

I don't deny that Rafe may love the books, but he also, clearly, sought to improve and modernise them and tell his own story, unfortunately he can't craft an insert like Sanderson could, in trying to flavour the story in his own way it results in a less than authentic product.

Of course others can and will disagree.

The idea that an adaptation can’t add or combine characters or add story and plot elements not contained in the original is nonsense. 
 

He attempted to adapt a long, complicated series. In some senses, he did it well. In others, not as well. But Maksim’s existence in the show is not - in any sense - proof that the show wasn’t an adaptation. 

[Guire]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

The idea that an adaptation can’t add or combine characters or add story and plot elements not contained in the original is nonsense. 
 

He attempted to adapt a long, complicated series. In some senses, he did it well. In others, not as well. But Maksim’s existence in the show is not - in any sense - proof that the show wasn’t an adaptation. 

The show is of course an adaptation.   The question is did AmaRafe use resources and material in a manner that entertained the most people while maintaining an audience that could support the long run required to tell a complete story.  Feminism, Queer activism, and modern identity representation were not core tenets of most readers experience with WoT books.  Strong female characters are present, underlying gay relationships, and world building based on diverse cultures are all present in books.  The second set of themes are different than the first.  The core of the books is young inexperienced but good young people (mostly males) evolving from naive and immature to become anchoring forces to save the world.  It is broad and epic.  The book story used myths and heroic figures to teach a largely masculine path to face conflict in the world.

 

AmaRafe wants to tell an intimate tale highlighting women's inherent superiority to men.  The show wanted to use a popular IP to normalize queer identity and sexual positivity to a broad audience.  The raw material of the show lent itself to a different story.  Once the various hardships kicked in it seemed to have made matters worse.  AmaRafe chose to tell a very difficult version and did not have resources or ability to do it justice.  

 

I have an 18 autistic son that wants to eventually join the military.  I have just spent an hour trying to teach him to walk like a non neuro divergent person so he might get a chance to join.  I feel Rafes pain.

Edited May 28 by Guire

[Kaleb]

2 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

"They sincerely understood" from reading the Wheel of Time that the Dragon Reborn could have been a woman and inserted a mystery into the show to demonstrate that sincere understanding? Despite the Karetheon cycle, despite all of the other prophecies, despite no false dragon ever being a woman, despite this contradicting the basic lore of the Jordan world with how Saidin and Saidar function. 

Both Moiraine's initial voiceover with "will he be reborn as a boy or a girl" and Liandrin's "when you touch it you make it filthy" mini-rant should have been a giant flag to bookreaders that the show was foregrounding the disqualifying ignorance of the Aes Sedai due to millennia of Black Ajah subversion, which is a major theme and plot point of the books. That so many fans of the books instead take Moiraine's ignorant belief and the words of a Darkfriend at face value and take offense at those lines is very disappointing to me.

Edited May 28 by Kaleb

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Guire said:

AmaRafe wants to tell an intimate tale highlighting women's inherent superiority to men. 

Idk about this. Because we never got to see the ending. But the actual core message of WoT is about balance. Balance between genders and cultures and traditions. Even balance between good and evil. 
 

At the beginning of the story, things are out of balance. Men are vulnerable because of the taint. Women are  disproportionately powerful compared to men. That all changes as the story unfolds, ending with balance established (for a time) before the inevitable turning of the Wheel disrupts that balance once more. 
 

If the story Rafe started — accepting that he intended to elevate women and LGBTQ elements of the story — finished, I hoped that it too would emphasize this theme, ending at a similar place of balance. Now, we will never know. 
 

From my PoV, this show was representation done (mostly) correctly. If one insists on viewing it first through the lens of politics, then I can see why people find it political.

 

On the other hand, if one sets politics aside and just watches the show, this is not a situation where the writing clobbered audiences with “the message”. There were no Mary Sues (even Egwene had flaws, though she’s clearly Rafe’s favorite); “favored” political classes were not depicted as always virtuous; there were no thinly veiled allusions to real world politics. There were just characters doing stuff.

[Kaleb]

19 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Idk about this. Because we never got to see the ending. But the actual core message of WoT is about balance. Balance between genders and cultures and traditions. Even balance between good and evil. 
 

At the beginning of the story, things are out of balance. Men are vulnerable because of the taint. Women are  disproportionately powerful compared to men. That all changes as the story unfolds, ending with balance established (for a time) before the inevitable turning of the Wheel disrupts that balance once more. 
 

If the story Rafe started — accepting that he intended to elevate women and LGBTQ elements of the story — finished, I hoped that it too would emphasize this theme, ending at a similar place of balance. Now, we will never know. 
 

From my PoV, this show was representation done (mostly) correctly. If one insists on viewing it first through the lens of politics, then I can see why people find it political.

I agree with this, we are living in a time of intense political focus on the minutiae of every element of our culture. Distrust and tribalism are at peak levels, many many people (myself included!) are filtering our experiences ideologically to protect ourselves from perceived opponents. The Wheel Of Time really is the perfect story for our times, in so many ways.

 

I've made the point before, but I really think reading about a world overbalanced toward female power in Robert Jordan's prose is not as visceral a challenge to real-world traditional perspectives as seeing that world on screen depicted by a feminist writing team. Very reductively: The book tells it, the show shows it, and that's too much for some people.

Edited May 28 by Kaleb

[divica]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Idk about this. Because we never got to see the ending. But the actual core message of WoT is about balance. Balance between genders and cultures and traditions. Even balance between good and evil. 
 

At the beginning of the story, things are out of balance. Men are vulnerable because of the taint. Women are  disproportionately powerful compared to men. That all changes as the story unfolds, ending with balance established (for a time) before the inevitable turning of the Wheel disrupts that balance once more. 
 

If the story Rafe started — accepting that he intended to elevate women and LGBTQ elements of the story — finished, I hoped that it too would emphasize this theme, ending at a similar place of balance. Now, we will never know. 
 

From my PoV, this show was representation done (mostly) correctly. If one insists on viewing it first through the lens of politics, then I can see why people find it political.

 

On the other hand, if one sets politics aside and just watches the show, this is not a situation where the writing clobbered audiences with “the message”. There were no Mary Sues (even Egwene had flaws, though she’s clearly Rafe’s favorite); “favored” political classes were not depicted as always virtuous; there were no thinly veiled allusions to real world politics. There were just characters doing stuff.

I completly disagree. At least in season 1 there are mary sues and at every oportunity it elevates women over men. even in something as stupid as having the women's circle being killing machines while the men die.

 

One of the things rafe failed to understand is that by showing the world though a male perspective in the first books it gives some false sense of balance between genders. wot needs to have some strong male characters in the first seasons so that it doesn't look like an extreme woke show. It can't have have nyn and egg creating miracles every once in a while and ignore rand. because then when rand is revealed as the dragon nobody cares about him. 

 

season 2 tried to solve this issue until the last episode where rand once again didn't do almost anything. season 3 was the first season where rand actually got to shine in the last episode...

 

you can say whatever you want, but the 1st season of the show failed completly in making the public bond with rand and you can't do a wot show if rand isn't one of the favorite characters of the show. it is like doing a batman series where robin has all the wow moments...

 

ps and you just have to look at the data that says half the people stoped watching the show between season 1 and 2 to see how badly acepted season 1 was.

Edited May 28 by divica

[Ralph]

25 minutes ago, divica said:

 

ps and you just have to look at the data that says half the people stoped watching the show between season 1 and 2 to see how badly acepted season 1 was.

 

The data don't say this. 

[Elder_Haman]

21 minutes ago, divica said:

at every oportunity it elevates women over men.

I think this is a fair criticism. Which is why I said 

 

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

this show was representation done (mostly) correctly.

But the women’s circle aren’t “Mary Sues”. That is a specific term meaning a specific thing. 

 

23 minutes ago, divica said:

wot needs to have some strong male characters in the first seasons so that it doesn't look like an extreme woke show.

And this is where you show me that you start with a political view and then filter what you see through it. A show should no more have to prove that it isn’t “woke” any more than it should have to prove that it is. 

 

25 minutes ago, divica said:

you just have to look at the data that says half the people stoped watching the show between season 1 and 2 to see how badly acepted season 1 was.

This doesn’t have anything to do with my point which is that, while you can decode some of the showrunner’s political views from decisions that he made, the show itself was not a vehicle for propagandizing a political viewpoint. 

[Sabio]

6 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

That wasn't the reason they did it....

It was so those who hadn't read the books would think maybe it could be Nyn or Egwene.  They were hoping to keep some suspense

[Guire]

30 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think this is a fair criticism. Which is why I said 

 

But the women’s circle aren’t “Mary Sues”. That is a specific term meaning a specific thing. 

 

And this is where you show me that you start with a political view and then filter what you see through it. A show should no more have to prove that it isn’t “woke” any more than it should have to prove that it is. 

 

This doesn’t have anything to do with my point which is that, while you can decode some of the showrunner’s political views from decisions that he made, the show itself was not a vehicle for propagandizing a political viewpoint. 

Rafe did state that he wanted to make feminism and representation a priority in his adaptation. Salke the head of Prime entertainment during WoT Prime's run also saw this as a priority.   If the story was created to with these ideas or Rafazon were masterful story crafters this might have been possible.  If this story did not get presented in a period of  post covid culture war closely aligning itself with political and cultural strife in the US it might have gotten a pass.  

 

There is definitely an audience for feminist power fantasy and identity politic driven entertainment.  Many fans not involved in culture wars also loved this adaptation.   Amazon marketed this show with alot of bait and switch nostalgia.  Online culture wars were used to run defense and demean any criticism.   I have a take  from watching politics and last few years watching culture wars in entertainment and video games.  Conservative leaning older demographics tend to consume more traditional entertainment like movies and television. Younger progressive demographics are well represented in online discourse but don't consume.  So much like politics you can have alot of noise from protests, online activism, and academic approval but it is not nearly as important as having people vote.  I have consistently voted straight democratic ticket for a long time in my US state.  I  am consistently called ist and phobe online by other US citizens that don't vote.  None of my gay and queer work friends vote.  Rafazon either misinterpreted the broad appeal of a show like this or didn't care.  I watched every episode.  Many twice.  But when people in entertainment tell me it's not for me and I am the enemy then I will be listening from now on.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Guire said:

Rafe did state that he wanted to make feminism and representation a priority in his adaptation. Salke the head of Prime entertainment during WoT Prime's run also saw this as a priority.   If the story was created to with these ideas or Rafazon were masterful story crafters this might have been possible.  If this story did not get presented in a period of  post covid culture war closely aligning itself with political and cultural strife in the US it might have gotten a pass.  

 

There is definitely an audience for feminist power fantasy and identity politic driven entertainment.  Many fans not involved in culture wars also loved this adaptation.   Amazon marketed this show with alot of bait and switch nostalgia.  Online culture wars were used to run defense and demean any criticism.   I have a take  from watching politics and last few years watching culture wars in entertainment and video games.  Conservative leaning older demographics tend to consume more traditional entertainment like movies and television. Younger progressive demographics are well represented in online discourse but don't consume.  So much like politics you can have alot of noise from protests, online activism, and academic approval but it is not nearly as important as having people vote.  I have consistently voted straight democratic ticket for a long time in my US state.  I  am consistently called ist and phobe online by other US citizens that don't vote.  None of my gay and queer work friends vote.  Rafazon either misinterpreted the broad appeal of a show like this or didn't care.  I watched every episode.  Many twice.  But when people in entertainment tell me it's not for me and I am the enemy then I will be listening from now on.

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. I’m not arguing that the people in the show lacked political views or that the product didn’t reflect those views. 
 

That is different from a story that is written to push a political message. 

[Guire]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. I’m not arguing that the people in the show lacked political views or that the product didn’t reflect those views. 
 

That is different from a story that is written to push a political message. 

I would say this was going to be a complex adaptation no matter what.  A GoT type adaptation would have probably been a bigger hit.  Changing a complex massively long beloved story to a TV show aimed to please a specific smaller than anticipated audience made this unlikely to succeed.  Amazon marketing set the show up to piss off lots of potential fans.  The priorities of the show were very theatre kid and misused time and physical resources that some fans loved and others hated.  The show never tried to explain any changes in show because any critique was labeled an ist or phone. If you are going to plop your product right into a war you better have the soldiers or you may lose.  Pleasing a small but committed audience only works with small budgets or benefactors.  WoT Prime didn't have either apparently. 

[Kaleb]

15 minutes ago, Guire said:

I would say this was going to be a complex adaptation no matter what.  A GoT type adaptation would have probably been a bigger hit.  Changing a complex massively long beloved story to a TV show aimed to please a specific smaller than anticipated audience made this unlikely to succeed.  Amazon marketing set the show up to piss off lots of potential fans.  The priorities of the show were very theatre kid and misused time and physical resources that some fans loved and others hated.  The show never tried to explain any changes in show because any critique was labeled an ist or phone. If you are going to plop your product right into a war you better have the soldiers or you may lose.  Pleasing a small but committed audience only works with small budgets or benefactors.  WoT Prime didn't have either apparently. 

This show was greenlit in what, 2019? Rafe's pitch probably did include some appeals to the #metoo and "it gets better" queer movements that were going strong at that point, and Amazon probably had those numbers too. And then the numbers changed as the culture wars shifted into gear during covid and the 2020 election. At least in the US, everything really feels different.

 

I think you've alluded to a facet of it that is absolutely real, these culture wars make everyone with a social media account and an activist bent into a strident critic, questioning motives, allegiances and at some times it really feels like the reality and experiences of everyone else. Chatting about a show quickly leads to ideological ambushes, even from people you'd probably share a voting preference with, but if you don't see every angle the same way then you're a traitor to the cause. Those conversations are way too common everywhere, and people are definitely weary of it in the way you described.

 

ETA: I don't believe that Rafe's pitch was cynical in any sense. He's described at length how bonding with his Mormon mother over WOT after coming out is a core part of his own personal story, and as a big WOT fan with a big personal investment in it, in a position to make a showrunner pitch like this, he most likely viewed it as a great time to make this into a show. As far as I know, there were no competing pitches, nobody at iWOT/REE was doing anything with it, there would still be no show in production if Rafe hadn't felt like - as a fan of the books - it was time to bring the story to TV.

Edited May 28 by Kaleb

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, Guire said:

Changing a complex massively long beloved story to a TV show aimed to please a specific smaller than anticipated audience made this unlikely to succeed. 

I think this is an oversimplification. I don't think the story was changed "to please" anyone in particular, so much as the showrunner's own views of the important themes overshadowed what others felt were the most important themes.

 

9 minutes ago, Guire said:

Amazon marketing set the show up to piss off lots of potential fans.

Amazon marketed the show? I must have missed it.

 

I don't think the show's failure can be boiled down to one single, all-encompassing reason. Though I would argue that the "who is the Dragon?" element of Season One was the single biggest issue.

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, Kaleb said:

This show was greenlit in what, 2019? Rafe's pitch probably did include some appeals to the #metoo and "it gets better" queer movements that were going strong at that point, and Amazon probably had those numbers too. And then the numbers changed as the culture wars shifted into gear during covid and the 2020 election. At least in the US, everything really feels different.

 

I think you've alluded to a facet of it that is absolutely real, these culture wars make everyone with a social media account and an activist bent into a strident critic, questioning motives, allegiances and at some times it really feels like the reality and experiences of everyone else. Chatting about a show quickly leads to ideological ambushes, even from people you'd probably share a voting preference with, but if you don't see every angle the same way then you're a traitor to the cause. Those conversations are way too common everywhere, and people are definitely weary of it in the way you described.

Exactly this!! 

It's the mid-2010's and you have the simultaneous issues of a certain set of people clamoring for strong female characters, LGBT representation, and diverse casting. You have another set of people upset at what is perceived to be the heavy-handed shoehorning of these priorities into existing IPs and/or weak, paper thing girlboss characters with no flaws.

 

And then you look at this IP, the Wheel of Time. It's an existing property. It is already chock full of strong, interesting female characters with real depth; there is a textual basis for including LGBT relationships; the world is huge and diverse allowing for castings across racial lines. What could possibly have been better than that? 

[SinisterDeath]

11 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

In all fairness, while it is completely unreasonable to expect an animated series as things stand, the ai has done so much progress lately, it wouldn't be too outlandish to imagine that in 10 or 20 years a descendant of sora may be able to produce an entire show if you just give it a script - which you could generate by asking the improved chatgpt to adapt the books. 

Total budget, 100$ in electricity.

Is that before or after your Toaster attempts to overthrow the government?

[Guire]

14 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think this is an oversimplification. I don't think the story was changed "to please" anyone in particular, so much as the showrunner's own views of the important themes overshadowed what others felt were the most important themes.

 

Amazon marketed the show? I must have missed it.

 

I don't think the show's failure can be boiled down to one single, all-encompassing reason. Though I would argue that the "who is the Dragon?" element of Season One was the single biggest issue.

It's an oversimplification but I think it is the root of shows problems and eventual failure.  Too many fires to put out on too many fronts.

[Ralph]

50 minutes ago, Guire said:

Rafe did state that he wanted to make feminism and representation a priority in his adaptation. Salke the head of Prime entertainment during WoT Prime's run also saw this as a priority.   

Can I see where they said this please? I don't remember that 

[Guire]

6 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Can I see where they said this please? I don't remember that 

I saw it in an early interview on YouTube.  Other interviews with Napier and Pike reiterated point.  I think in magazine article he specifically stated he pitched show as feminist corrective to GoT.

 

[Guire]

25 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Exactly this!! 

It's the mid-2010's and you have the simultaneous issues of a certain set of people clamoring for strong female characters, LGBT representation, and diverse casting. You have another set of people upset at what is perceived to be the heavy-handed shoehorning of these priorities into existing IPs and/or weak, paper thing girlboss characters with no flaws.

 

And then you look at this IP, the Wheel of Time. It's an existing property. It is already chock full of strong, interesting female characters with real depth; there is a textual basis for including LGBT relationships; the world is huge and diverse allowing for castings across racial lines. What could possibly have been better than that? 

The pitch was tone deaf to the current situation.  We went from gay rights to queer empowerment and and almost split US population.  The queer movement has undermined alot of goodwill with people that ignored the issue or mildly supported it.  It's the prioritization that hurts the story.  If you don't think representation and queer culture make everything better then the show is much weaker.   Less couture costuming more engaging writing.  They swung for the fences and missed.