WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

51 minutes ago, Akmenos the bound said:

What I’m curious about is what did Mat say in the old-tongue to the heroes I can’t find the translation but it was awesome

It's time to roll the dice ("Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.").

Edited October 6, 2023 by bringbackthomsmoustache

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Mirefox said:

I think we can officially say that at this point Perrin is a better sword fighter than Rand…

“But Rand won’t have earned is fight with Turak. Rand hasn’t even trained with Lan, he won’t earn his skills.”

 

“Rand should be a blade master already”

 

Same people.

As was pointed out a ways back, they are consciously trying to avoid power creep. Rand is OP. He has god-tier powers. The entire point of the novels is to explore the idea of how a kid from a farm would handle those powers. The show is going slow with Rand on purpose so that his ascension can be given the chance to be earned.

 

The female characters that you hate to see elevated so much (except, strangely Nynaeve who has been exhibit A for how women have been ‘raised over men’ - I’ll get to that in a minute) are following their own development arcs. Thus, Egwene gets to finally show how powerful she really is and her fierce loyalty to Rand and the other people she cares about. She gets to pay off her captivity by demonstrating her capacity for taking punishment in service of that loyalty. 
 

Moiraine gets her power back. She renews her relationship with Lan and she gains the confidence to be the agent who proclaims the Dragon. She has now completed alienated herself from the Tower and is fully in Rand’s service. The fact that she eliminated the shield on Rand is thematically satisfying. They have each rescued the other from having been cut off from the source. 
 

Nynaeve is in the process of her own arc now. She has a crisis of confidence to overcome. Elayne was better and more effective than she was even wounded. Elayne’s tactics were more effective. The woman who people literally said was going to be made into the Dragon Reborn because of Rafe’s politics has been almost useless. Why? Because it is her own individual arc. She needs to learn control. Control of the power, control of her emotions, and to know when she needs to relinquish control to someone else. 

 

Can we please try to get a little bit of perspective?! They are depicting the emotional journey of these characters. Many of the changes serve that purpose. 

[Mirefox]

But Perrin’s arc is that he is so scared of violence that he sympathizes with the tinkers, is willing to watch his companions be stabbed (presumably) fatally in Fal Dara while standing like a deer in the headlights,  then impaled through the face while standing like a deer in the headlights, then rush into the middle of a battle and start sword fighting competently against trained soldiers?

 

Stop the apology tour for every last nonsensical writing decision.  We have a character who in the books is trained to fight with the sword and then is forced into duel where he is outmatched but shows some competence.  That is what fans wanted.  In the books we have another character who probably doesn’t touch a sword in 14 books and here they show him fighting with one.
 

 

[EmreY]

13 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

How did they know a fourth oath would even work if someone didn't try it already?

 

Just like in the books if they know adding an oath beyond the 3rd works, someone had to have tried removing one.

 

That is the crux of the issue you and I are having.  We do not know, we cannot know, and all we can do is conjecture.

[Guire]

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

“But Rand won’t have earned is fight with Turak. Rand hasn’t even trained with Lan, he won’t earn his skills.”

 

“Rand should be a blade master already”

 

Same people.

As was pointed out a ways back, they are consciously trying to avoid power creep. Rand is OP. He has god-tier powers. The entire point of the novels is to explore the idea of how a kid from a farm would handle those powers. The show is going slow with Rand on purpose so that his ascension can be given the chance to be earned.

 

The female characters that you hate to see elevated so much (except, strangely Nynaeve who has been exhibit A for how women have been ‘raised over men’ - I’ll get to that in a minute) are following their own development arcs. Thus, Egwene gets to finally show how powerful she really is and her fierce loyalty to Rand and the other people she cares about. She gets to pay off her captivity by demonstrating her capacity for taking punishment in service of that loyalty. 
 

Moiraine gets her power back. She renews her relationship with Lan and she gains the confidence to be the agent who proclaims the Dragon. She has now completed alienated herself from the Tower and is fully in Rand’s service. The fact that she eliminated the shield on Rand is thematically satisfying. They have each rescued the other from having been cut off from the source. 
 

Nynaeve is in the process of her own arc now. She has a crisis of confidence to overcome. Elayne was better and more effective than she was even wounded. Elayne’s tactics were more effective. The woman who people literally said was going to be made into the Dragon Reborn because of Rafe’s politics has been almost useless. Why? Because it is her own individual arc. She needs to learn control. Control of the power, control of her emotions, and to know when she needs to relinquish control to someone else. 

 

Can we please try to get a little bit of perspective?! They are depicting the emotional journey of these characters. Many of the changes serve that purpose. 

For sake of enjoying show you can choose to not see it. Perrin and Mat thus far are kind of unlikable and not nearly as interesting as should be from what they have done in show. Rand has been in fetal position on floor alot and much of his screen time has been a dialogue partner for richer, more interesting female characters.  It is what it is.  Long live my dark diety Lanfear. the sneaky Lady of Carhein. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Mirefox said:

But Perrin’s arc is that he is so scared of violence that he sympathizes with the tinkers, is willing to watch his companions be stabbed (presumably) fatally in Fal Dara while standing like a deer in the headlights,  then impaled through the face while standing like a deer in the headlights, then rush into the middle of a battle and start sword fighting competently against trained soldiers?

We've seen Perrin fight competently already several times this season. He fought competently during the first battle with the Seanchan before the damane took them off the board. He fought competently during his fight with Aviendha and the Whitecloaks. He was traveling with the Sheinarans and we can reasonably conclude that he picked up a thing or two. (Not to mention that he fought competently against the trollocs on Winternight, implying some degree of existing ability.)

 

Perrin's arc is that he fears his rage. In battle he loses control. That led him to kill Laila (still not my favorite call). He struggled with that, especially after being introduced to the Tinkers. It paralyzed him at Fal Dara (the worst written episode of the show, but one that I believe needs to be forgiven because of all of the problems caused by Barney Harris's departure and COVID shutdowns. I think Rafe mostly just sort of tries to pretend that episode never happened.) 

 

He's now gained some of his mojo back. But now he's killed Bornhald the Elder. And that's about to have some consequences which will put him right back in the crosshairs of that same problem. Will he handle it differently? Will his experiences in the wolf dream help or hinder him?

 

11 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Stop the apology tour for every last nonsensical writing decision.

I'm sorry, but your effort to portray me as a sycophant falls flat. I have been critical of the writers many, many times in this forum. I'm just not inclined to view everything through the lens of politics and I'm far more tolerant of changes to the books that serve the purpose of making better TV.

[Mirefox]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

We've seen Perrin fight competently already several times this season. He fought competently during the first battle with the Seanchan before the damane took them off the board. He fought competently during his fight with Aviendha and the Whitecloaks. He was traveling with the Sheinarans and we can reasonably conclude that he picked up a thing or two. (Not to mention that he fought competently against the trollocs on Winternight, implying some degree of existing ability.)

 

Perrin's arc is that he fears his rage. In battle he loses control. That led him to kill Laila (still not my favorite call). He struggled with that, especially after being introduced to the Tinkers. It paralyzed him at Fal Dara (the worst written episode of the show, but one that I believe needs to be forgiven because of all of the problems caused by Barney Harris's departure and COVID shutdowns. I think Rafe mostly just sort of tries to pretend that episode never happened.) 

 

He's now gained some of his mojo back. But now he's killed Bornhald the Elder. And that's about to have some consequences which will put him right back in the crosshairs of that same problem. Will he handle it differently? Will his experiences in the wolf dream help or hinder him?

 

I'm sorry, but your effort to portray me as a sycophant falls flat. I have been critical of the writers many, many times in this forum. I'm just not inclined to view everything through the lens of politics and I'm far more tolerant of changes to the books that serve the purpose of making better TV.

You’re literally trying to argue that it, in fact, makes complete sense we’ve seen Perrin sword fighting more than Rand.  In no universe, book or TV, does that make sense.

[Elder_Haman]

11 hours ago, Guire said:

Rand has been in fetal position on floor alot

Yes. Because he hasn't had much of an idea of how to use the power and has been trying not to channel because he's afraid. I'll be willing to be $1 million internet dollars that he doesn't spend any time in the fetal position next season.

Spoiler

(Unless we get the box)

 

I agree that Rand, Mat and Perrin have not yet gotten to be the stars of the show. Thus far Moiraine, Nynaeve and Egwene have been given the biggest moments. This doesn't mean that the boys aren't ever going to get to shine. Their journeys are just starting (much like they were in the books).

 

11 hours ago, Mirefox said:

You’re literally trying to argue that it, in fact, makes complete sense we’ve seen Perrin sword fighting more than Rand.  In no universe, book or TV, does that make sense.

Yes. Because Rand hasn't learned to fight with a sword yet in the TV universe. So ... it makes sense that he wouldn't have fought with it? Your argument is that Rand knew how to use a sword better in the books. You are correct. Here's your gold star.

[king of nowhere]

1 minute ago, Mirefox said:

You’re literally trying to argue that it, in fact, makes complete sense we’ve seen Perrin sword fighting more than Rand.  In no universe, book or TV, does that make sense.

why does it make no sense? we do have, indeed, seen perrin fight with the sword a lot more than rand.
 

perrin also spent months with the shienarans, who will have taught him some. and he is big and strong, which is always an advantage.

what did rand do? practice some forms, maybe?

it makes complete sense for perrin to be competent with melee weapons at this point, and it makes absolute sense for him to be better than rand in the show

[Guire]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

We've seen Perrin fight competently already several times this season. He fought competently during the first battle with the Seanchan before the damane took them off the board. He fought competently during his fight with Aviendha and the Whitecloaks. He was traveling with the Sheinarans and we can reasonably conclude that he picked up a thing or two. (Not to mention that he fought competently against the trollocs on Winternight, implying some degree of existing ability.)

 

Perrin's arc is that he fears his rage. In battle he loses control. That led him to kill Laila (still not my favorite call). He struggled with that, especially after being introduced to the Tinkers. It paralyzed him at Fal Dara (the worst written episode of the show, but one that I believe needs to be forgiven because of all of the problems caused by Barney Harris's departure and COVID shutdowns. I think Rafe mostly just sort of tries to pretend that episode never happened.) 

 

He's now gained some of his mojo back. But now he's killed Bornhald the Elder. And that's about to have some consequences which will put him right back in the crosshairs of that same problem. Will he handle it differently? Will his experiences in the wolf dream help or hinder him?

 

I'm sorry, but your effort to portray me as a sycophant falls flat. I have been critical of the writers many, many times in this forum. I'm just not inclined to view everything through the lens of politics and I'm far more tolerant of changes to the books that serve the purpose of making better TV.

I dont think you are shilling for show at all.  You have been pretty consistant in praise and critique.  But this was a politically driven adaptation just as much as the flag humping patriotism shows are. My contention all along is that a less modernized female centric, female prioritized adapatation would have made more entertaining consistant TV in the framework of this story, plotline, and time limitation.   I thoroughly enjoyed watching but its a pale mirror world of what it could have been.

[Mirefox]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Yes. Because Rand hasn't learned to fight with a sword yet in the TV universe. So ... it makes sense that he wouldn't have fought with it? Your argument is that Rand knew how to use a sword better in the books. You are correct. Here's your gold star.

I see, my bad.  I forgot those scenes where Perrin was been trained to sword fight.

[Guire]

So heron on hilt on Rands sword was just a "my bad" by show for first season and that was Tam's sword that burned up correct?  I plan a full season rewatch soon but didnt remember a sword swap.

[Elder_Haman]

11 hours ago, Guire said:

So heron on hilt on Rands sword was just a "my bad" by show for first season and that was Tam's sword that burned up correct?  I plan a full season rewatch soon but didnt remember a sword swap.

It was Tam's sword that burned up.

 

11 hours ago, Mirefox said:

I forgot those scenes where Perrin was been trained to sword fight.

You saw Perrin fight with a sword: (1) on Winternight; (2) against the Seanchan; (3) against the Whitecloaks. 

 

11 hours ago, Guire said:

But this was a politically driven adaptation just as much as the flag humping patriotism shows are.

I think that there are absolutely some politics involved. There is certainly an effort to showcase strong female characters and emphasize diversity. And there is, I'm sure, a degree of pandering to critics who vote for awards, who clearly skew in a particular political direction. Neither of those things are bad in and of themselves. 

[Mirefox]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

You saw Perrin fight with a sword: (1) on Winternight; (2) against the Seanchan; (3) against the Whitecloaks. 

Well he had to have one on Winternight; can’t kill your wife with a hammer to the gut.

 

This show is ridiculous.  Absolute contempt for the source.

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Well he had to have one on Winternight; can’t kill your wife with a hammer to the gut.

 

This show is ridiculous.  Absolute contempt for the source.

I'm sorry this is happening to you.

[SinisterDeath]

45 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

That is the crux of the issue you and I are having.  We do not know, we cannot know, and all we can do is conjecture.

Correct.

Either
A) She broke the 3rd oath and she's Black Ajah.

B) She never swore the 3rd oath.
C) She swore a different 3rd oath that allows her to protect the dragon and her warder.

Those are the only 3 possible options I see to keep the shows lore internally consistent.

[Rhaze]

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Correct.

Either
A) She broke the 3rd oath and she's Black Ajah.

B) She never swore the 3rd oath.
C) She swore a different 3rd oath that allows her to protect the dragon and her warder.

Those are the only 3 possible options I see to keep the shows lore internally consistent.

D) or writing doesnt allow us to know if it is an oversight, screw up, or just lack of detail.

 

 There has been way too much of that so far, so it could be any of the above.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

Either
A) She broke the 3rd oath and she's Black Ajah.

B) She never swore the 3rd oath.
C) She swore a different 3rd oath that allows her to protect the dragon and her warder.

D) In the spirit of the Aes Sedai interpreting the oath against using the one power as a weapon as widely as possible she considers any threat to the dragon to amount to a situation where she is defending herself from a threat to her own life (since if the dragon dies we they are all doomed).

[Requiem]

17 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Well he had to have one on Winternight; can’t kill your wife with a hammer to the gut.

 

This show is ridiculous.  Absolute contempt for the source.

 

Well l, that sure is an opinion. If you hate the show that much why have you carried on watching it?

[SinisterDeath]

9 minutes ago, Rhaze said:

D) or writing doesnt allow us to know if it is an oversight, screw up, or just lack of detail.

 

 There has been way too much of that so far, so it could be any of the above.

You missed the last line.
 

Quote

Those are the only 3 possible options I see to keep the shows lore internally consistent.

Like right now, they have 100% established a massive plot hole with the dagger in S2E8, considering what it did in S1E8.

[fearbrog]

49 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The show is going slow with Rand on purpose so that his ascension can be given the chance to be earned.

Let's see they took away Tarwin's Gap, his blade, his betrayal and forgiveness with Ingtar, flicker, his Battle in the Sky.  What exactly he did by himself this two seasons?

 

51 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Many of the changes serve that purpose. 

Is this purpose to elevate Egwene? Because while show took away Rand biggest moments, she so far helped destroy army of trollocs, made most impressive healing feat in show(probably in books too, in terms of physical not mental healing), gained freedom from being damane all by herself( literally impossible) and managed to save Rand. All this no doubt earned.

[Jaysen Gore]

I'll go through this in more detail, and add my thoughts when I have time, but wanted to get this on the record for next season before someone else does....

 

Hello...my name is Daino Bornhaldo....you killed my father...prepare to die...

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, fearbrog said:

What exactly he did by himself this two seasons?

He saved Egwene from Trollocs in the Ways. He made the correct choice in T'a'R before freeing Ishamael. He worked his way in to get access to Logain. He killed Turak. He killed Ishamael.

 

8 minutes ago, fearbrog said:

Is this purpose to elevate Egwene? Because while show took away Rand biggest moments, she so far helped destroy army of trollocs, made most impressive healing feat in show(probably in books too, in terms of physical not mental healing), gained freedom from being damane all by herself( literally impossible) and managed to save Rand. All this no doubt earned.

(1) she did nothing to destroy the army of Trollocs, she was used as a battery by Amalisa. (Terrible choice, awful episode, forgivable due to circumstances as I've explained ad nauseum).

(2) Who did Egwene heal? That was Nynaeve.

(3) She gained her freedom. I admit that this presents some sort of hole in terms of how she could touch the collar (perhaps because it was no longer linked to a sul'dam).

(4) She interposed herself between Rand and Ishy. As discussed elsewhere, it is unclear to me that Ishy wanted to beat her at that point - he's playing the long game and chose to sheathe the sword.

Spoiler

I believe he will be reborn as Moridin and knows this.

Remember his dialogue with Lanfear about actually believing in and speaking to the Dark One. 

 

And yes, Egwene earned her moment by suffering as a damane, being dehumanized and controlled. In spite of those challenges, during which she learned just how powerful she was, she managed to retain her composure. Despite being faced with incredible odds, she stood as a shield between Ishamael and Rand demonstrating her determination to protect her friends at any cost. You know, just like Egwene in the books.

[Samt]

I haven't watched episodes 5, 6, or 7, but I was interested in watching episode 8, so I did.  On the level of mindless entertainment without considering the source material, I'd give it a 4 out of 5.  It's fun TV. 

 

Internally, the plot and world building have tons of holes.  There's lots of things that just require you to not think about them too much.  

 

In regards to faithfulness to the source material, it's more riffing than adapting.  It's not the same world, plot, or characters.  But there are tons of points where you see that they were trying to recreate a moment from the books or subverting a moment from the books.  Indiana Jonesing Turak was frankly hilarious.  It's kind of a meta moment where the creators of the show acknowledge that they have failed to set this up and will just "power" through it.  

 

I see a lot of people that liked Lan getting a good action scene.  On a purely action sequence level, it was good.  But it really felt like they just teleported in a conveniently sized detachment of Seanchan red-shirts that would attack Lan in appropriately sized and spaced waves so that he would look good.  Where did they even come from?  Why did they break formation?  What were they trying to achieve? Did they recognize Moiraine?  She wasn't channelling when they started to charge and even if she was they couldn't see the weaves.  For all the soldiers knew, they were two people on the beach.  And if they did want to take her out and saw her from the wall, I would assume that archery would be the answer.  This just felt like "generic no stakes fight scene."

 

In regards to the arrow in the leg, from a purely first aid standpoint, the proper thing to do when something is deeply impaled in your body is almost always to just leave it there until you get to the hospital.  Pulling it out or pushing it through will cause more damage, increase the risk of infection, and usually lead to lots of blood loss.  Breaking it off is a good option simply so that the sticking out part doesn't bump into things.  Whether you leave it or push it through, you won't be able to use the leg much.  Pushing it through makes a second hole and will lead to lots of bleeding.  If it's a broadhead, it could also potentially further lacerate the muscle.  Pushing it through served no purpose.  In a world with no one power, you wait until you get to a safe place to perform the surgery where you are prepped to control the bleeding and let the patient rest.  In a world with the one power, you just wait until you can find someone who can channel.  

 

This episode really gave me vibes of "The Expendables."  

Edited October 6, 2023 by Samt

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

Notes while watching:

 

- Pointless cold open.  All it seemed to do is humanize a forsaken and make him a more sympathetic character

 Well why not humanize the villains? Just because its once again the 20’s it doesn’t mean we need to return to vaudeville standards, though if mustache twirling villains are your thing then I might recommend a charming 1999 Canadian set piece staring Brendon Frazier. Humanized villains, much like flawed heroes, are just more interesting. Besides, RJ took the time to give the Forsaken more complex motivations for joining The Shadow than just, money, power, rule the world so I would actually like to see the show play up those motivations more. 
 

Seriously, if you can’t handle villains any more complex than this then maybe you need to rethink your entertainment choices 😆