WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[SinisterDeath]

9 minutes ago, Godoggo said:

It's not about Murder.  It's about the thought of using an item as a weapon against your Suldam.  Yes, they can use the a'dam against another woman.  But not against your Suldam.  That's the rule.  You can't use anything you perceive as a weapon against your suldam.  Egwene was clearly trying to use an a'dam as a weapon against her suldam.  It's frustrating.  And prime, give them more time for character development.  Mat's change was very quick.  Why the dagger became a light saber and how Mat knew that it would act that way?  Also, how did Loial survive the light saber (admittedly, most of season 1 stunk and maybe we need to conveniently just forget 80% of the first season)

Yes, and that thought hinges on premeditation.

 

I can hold a hammer in my hand and think about hammering a nail into a piece of wood.
But the moment I have an intrusive thought about taking that hammer and turning the Sul'dam's head into pulp is the moment that a'dam would slam me into the ground.

If I picked up that hammer with the premeditated thought of taking it and turning the Sul'dam's head into paste, it wouldn't let me.

 

I don't know why no one's willing to entertain the possibility of premeditation? 

[Elder_Haman]

10 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I don't know why no one's willing to entertain the possibility of premeditation? 

Because Rafe ruined everything and hates Robert Jordan and hates his work and thinks he can do better and misandry. Obviously.

[Ralph]

41 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Pages and pages of arguing because the show can’t consistently demonstrate its own lore.

 

And some wonder why we continually argue about the writing quality…

 

but we are arguing whether it fits with the book lore also... 

[Mirefox]

It is almost blink-and-you’ll-miss-it, but I liked the look of awe Masema gave to the dragon banner.

[Samt]

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

That hinges on premeditation.

 

Aside from Egwene saying "I will kill you" an episode before.
Can you know for certain that Egwene knowingly planned to murder Renna with that a'dam? 

Did we have a "this is what Egwene thinks" bubble above her head? Can you read her mind? I can't...

 

Her "plan" could have been simply to get Renna to free her.

The "murder" was passion, not "planned".

Yes, that does away with the a'dam problem, theoretically.  But it actually causes a much bigger problem by turning Egwene from a very determined and calculating hero into some sort of crazy ragebear that murders people without thinking about it.  

 

Also, Occam's razor.  She said, "I will kill you."  Then she did it.  Why do we then assume that she didn't plan to do it?

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Samt said:

Yes, that does away with the a'dam problem, theoretically.  But it actually causes a much bigger problem by turning Egwene from a very determined and calculating hero into some sort of crazy ragebear that murders people without thinking about it.  

 

Also, Occam's razor.  She said, "I will kill you."  Then she did it.  Why do we then assume that she didn't plan to do it?

I think what we are meant to conclude is that Egwene developed the mental fortitude to train her mind so that she wouldn't think of killing with the collar and was able to stay in that mental fortress while she endured the pain Renna was enduring.

 

Did they pull it off well? Not really. Would a rescue by Elayne and Nyn have been better? Probably. They chose "emotionally satisfying" over logical consistency. In this instance, it worked for me. With the dagger, it did not.

[SinisterDeath]

11 minutes ago, Samt said:

Yes, that does away with the a'dam problem, theoretically.  But it actually causes a much bigger problem by turning Egwene from a very determined and calculating hero into some sort of crazy ragebear that murders people without thinking about it.  

The a'dam is a Ter'angrael that works based on what you're thinking, feeling, or believe at the moment. (And this involves not thinking/feeling or believing it subconsciously)

We know through out the novels that Aes Sedai training often involves suppressing surface thoughts/feelings/beliefs... like not feeling heat.

So you have to believe that a'dam isn't a weapon when you place it on someone.

Whether Egwene should have been able to use it to lift Renna up on the thing and choke her is a more interesting question that I don't have much explanation other than.... You have to believe doing so isn't going to hurt her.

[Guire]

Perrins shield he got from Uno Cain.  Does he end up keeping it? I assumed it disappeared when heroes vanished but it appears to be on top of rubble pile in last overhead shot of EF5+Andorinita.  In this turning no Mjolner maybe power shield?

 

Also Moraine's fire wyrm wrecked most of those ships.  It was almost sentient.  After knocking ships it then joined her other weaves to create the dragon.  Not sure if anything in books did that.  possibly some of Rands weaves.

[Yamezt]

Someone else pointed this out to me (don't recall it mentioned earlier in this thread). Didn't think anything about it in my watch.

 

When Ishy walked into the room with Suroth around the 29 min mark, Suroth asked Ishy "Where have you been"

 

Ishy started dusted his hands and the camera even focuses on his hands and Ishy responded, "I had other tasks to attend to." 

 

Presumably cuendillar/seals dust? - Which I thought was a nice touch

Edited October 12, 2023 by Yamezt

[DaddyFinn]

29 minutes ago, Yamezt said:

Someone else pointed this out to me (don't recall it mentioned earlier in this thread). Didn't think anything about it in my watch.

 

When Ishy walked into the room with Suroth around the 29 min mark, Suroth asked Ishy "Where have you been"

 

Ishy started dusted his hands and the camera even focuses on his hands and Ishy responded, "I had other tasks to attend to." 

 

Presumably cuendillar/seals dust? - Which I thought was a nice touch

Nah, I'm sure he just did his calisthenics workout /s

[Scarloc99]

15 hours ago, Godoggo said:

It's not about Murder.  It's about the thought of using an item as a weapon against your Suldam.  Yes, they can use the a'dam against another woman.  But not against your Suldam.  That's the rule.  You can't use anything you perceive as a weapon against your suldam.  Egwene was clearly trying to use an a'dam as a weapon against her suldam.  It's frustrating.  And prime, give them more time for character development.  Mat's change was very quick.  Why the dagger became a light saber and how Mat knew that it would act that way?  Also, how did Loial survive the light saber (admittedly, most of season 1 stunk and maybe we need to conveniently just forget 80% of the first season)

But, if a collar works on a Sul Damane, how is she then actually a Sul Damane, yes she wears the bracelet, but, she is a channeller, an uncollared Channeller at that, are you suggesting the Seanchan should programme safety guards into the collar, they have not, the collar detects she can channel and then does it's thing. 

 

The Collar is not a weapon, it was not being used as a weapon it was being used as it's purpose. Your logic indicates that Channellers can never collar anyone because doing so involves "using. weapon". 

[Scarloc99]

15 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yes, and that thought hinges on premeditation.

 

I can hold a hammer in my hand and think about hammering a nail into a piece of wood.
But the moment I have an intrusive thought about taking that hammer and turning the Sul'dam's head into pulp is the moment that a'dam would slam me into the ground.

If I picked up that hammer with the premeditated thought of taking it and turning the Sul'dam's head into paste, it wouldn't let me.

 

I don't know why no one's willing to entertain the possibility of premeditation? 

I think there is a wider thing here people are missing the point of, Egwene is using the collar for the exact purpose it is designed for, as far as Seanchan are concerned the collar used in this way is not a weapon. Renna does not see it as a weapon, and Egwene, as she collars renna, was not sure if it would work or not. She said herself "I didn't know if I was right" or something. 

 

The dialogue in the scene explains it all, it seems certain people want to ignore the dialogue and just jump onto shouting "that isn't possible, it could never happen" and ignore the clever buildup that has led to this moment. 

[Scarloc99]

15 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Because Rafe ruined everything and hates Robert Jordan and hates his work and thinks he can do better and misandry. Obviously.

And Woke, don't forget that :). 

[DaddyFinn]

 

 

[Scarloc99]

13 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think what we are meant to conclude is that Egwene developed the mental fortitude to train her mind so that she wouldn't think of killing with the collar and was able to stay in that mental fortress while she endured the pain Renna was enduring.

 

Did they pull it off well? Not really. Would a rescue by Elayne and Nyn have been better? Probably. They chose "emotionally satisfying" over logical consistency. In this instance, it worked for me. With the dagger, it did not.

I mean, if anyone bothers thinking about the books, Egwene getting this mental strength is a key thing to what happens later to her. Remember, laughing as she is being switched. I imagine that things like, you know limited time, mean that this moment may well replace her Toh scene wth the Aiel, or more likely that will build on this. 

I imagine when Egwene was collared in TGH Robert Jordan had no idea she would end up being switched and punished in the white tower and need to stay serene and in control. Rafe can now foreshadow back and forth and build things right across the series. 

[Requiem]

16 hours ago, Samt said:

Wrong questions.  As the water jug shows us, the question is not, "Is this object inherently a weapon?"  Water jugs are not designed as weapons.  Egwene could not pick it up due to her own intent.  Ropes and handcuffs can be used as weapons, just like water jugs.  And, as we see when Egwene hangs Renna using the a'dam, a'dam can also be used as weapons.  And critically, that seems to be Egwene's plan when she picks it up.  That is the problem.  

 

It doesn't matter if an a'dam is inherently a weapon.  Egwene intended to use it as one. Just like she wanted to use the water jug as a weapon.  Why could she pick up one of them and not the other?

 

It isn't about design, like you said the water jug is viewed as a weapon because Egwene is thinking of beating her captor with it.

 

Sure you can use handcuffs as a weapon, but grabbing a pair and using them to restrain someone isn't using them as a weapon.

 

Egwene doesn't know for sure she is right about how the a'dam works, but she is in a desperate situation and has a surprise window of opportunity. This isn't a premeditated attempt to murder Renna this is someone reacting quickly.

[Scarloc99]

11 hours ago, Guire said:

Perrins shield he got from Uno Cain.  Does he end up keeping it? I assumed it disappeared when heroes vanished but it appears to be on top of rubble pile in last overhead shot of EF5+Andorinita.  In this turning no Mjolner maybe power shield?

 

Also Moraine's fire wyrm wrecked most of those ships.  It was almost sentient.  After knocking ships it then joined her other weaves to create the dragon.  Not sure if anything in books did that.  possibly some of Rands weaves.

He swapped it for the Horn. 

 

No idea why that scene of the horn vanishing is bothering me so much lol, as many know I have forgiven most of the things the show has changed lol 

[SinisterDeath]

For those that hate the horn, I made this image for y'all. 

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I mean, if anyone bothers thinking about the books, Egwene getting this mental strength is a key thing to what happens later to her. Remember, laughing as she is being switched. I imagine that things like, you know limited time, mean that this moment may well replace her Toh scene wth the Aiel, or more likely that will build on this. 

 

her toh scene with the aiel is one of my favourites in the books. it's a great scene overall, and it's significant in the plot. i think it's very likely it will be included

[nsmallw]

16 hours ago, Guire said:

Perrins shield he got from Uno Cain.  Does he end up keeping it? I assumed it disappeared when heroes vanished but it appears to be on top of rubble pile in last overhead shot of EF5+Andorinita.  In this turning no Mjolner maybe power shield?

The "magic shield" bit made me raise my eyebrow. I wish it had disappeared once the Heroes of the Horn had returned to dust or returns to the normal shield it was when Uno was alive. Please, Rafe, no magic shield in season three or beyond. 🙏

Edited October 12, 2023 by nsmallw
add word

[Guire]

Any thoughts if Mats spear is around for rest of show or he gets ashandarei from Finn?  When he went to hug Perrin I about lost my mind.  Muzzle discipline, muzzle discipline.  Friendly fire is not friendly.

 

Not a fan of conch shell of valere. Since magic can now expand matter I would much prefer a small carnyx that grew as he blew.  Yea I said that.

 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

her toh scene with the aiel is one of my favourites in the books. it's a great scene overall, and it's significant in the plot. i think it's very likely it will be included

I agree and I think this moment builds into that, after This Egwene resolves to never give in, to fight and deny, finally they Aiel teach her to accept and absorb, it is a good arc from this scene to that one. 

[Godoggo]

On 10/11/2023 at 12:22 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Yes, and that thought hinges on premeditation.

 

I can hold a hammer in my hand and think about hammering a nail into a piece of wood.
But the moment I have an intrusive thought about taking that hammer and turning the Sul'dam's head into pulp is the moment that a'dam would slam me into the ground.

If I picked up that hammer with the premeditated thought of taking it and turning the Sul'dam's head into paste, it wouldn't let me.

 

I don't know why no one's willing to entertain the possibility of premeditation? 

Which supports that the moment she thinks to use the a'dam as a weapon, she will "slam" to the ground thus preventing her from placing it on the suldam.  

[Godoggo]

13 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

But, if a collar works on a Sul Damane, how is she then actually a Sul Damane, yes she wears the bracelet, but, she is a channeller, an uncollared Channeller at that, are you suggesting the Seanchan should programme safety guards into the collar, they have not, the collar detects she can channel and then does it's thing. 

 

The Collar is not a weapon, it was not being used as a weapon it was being used as it's purpose. Your logic indicates that Channellers can never collar anyone because doing so involves "using. weapon". 

you are totally missing the rule set up in the show.  Of course, damane can use weapons.  They are taught to be a weapon.  The rule in the show is that they can't use anything that they think of as a weapon against their suldam.  That would include the collar of course being used as a weapon against her suldam, especially since she had worked out that her suldam had to be able to channel.  There is no way that Egwene wouldn't have thought of the collar as a weapon as it was used as a weapon to torture her.  

[Elder_Haman]

13 minutes ago, Godoggo said:

There is no way that Egwene wouldn't have thought of the collar as a weapon as it was used as a weapon to torture her.

The collar wasn't used as a weapon. The collar merely established a link between Sul'dam and damane.

 

20 minutes ago, Godoggo said:

Which supports that the moment she thinks to use the a'dam as a weapon, she will "slam" to the ground thus preventing her from placing it on the suldam.  

Placing the collar on the Sul'dam's neck did not harm the sul'dam in any way. Nor did Egwene attempt to use the collar to harm Renna. Renna tried to harm Egwene and was prevented by the collar. It was only after that that Egwene began to harm Renna. And she endured the pain that caused until Renna voluntarily released the collar.