WoT Season 2 Episode 7: Daes Dae'Mar

[Mirefox]

16 hours ago, Ralph said:

New topic - just saw Unraveling the Pattern's theory that Siuan was Compelled to act as she did in this Ep. 

 

What do y'all thinks? 

 

not certain how to connect the dots, but we have not had any follow up from Liandrin asking Leane if she even knows where the Amyrlin is. 

 

is this all part of the "crippled" Amyrlin? and bringing about the coup, of course

I agree with what others have said about this, but I'll also add that over-using compulsion as a plot device  would be problematic where at any point anyone's intentions and actions could be just about anything and it could later be explained away deus ex machina-style.

[DigificWriter]

I like Lauren (Unraveling the Pattern)'s channel, but I just don't see how it makes sense to try and 'justify' Siuan's betrayal of her Fishwife by somehow absolving her of that betrayal.

 

And I say that as someone who was genuinely upset by that choice.

[Rhaze]

5 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

And it would have required much more screen time to show something that doesn't really matter to the story of how Rand gets to the last battle. You show them with the Amirylian at the viewing, you have to show the Amirylian being killed by Black Ajah, have to explain why the girls where left alone, have to then show them becoming aes sedai and making the pact, you have to waste 10-15/20 minutes extra telling all of that story for no benefit to the viewer whatsoever. People really don't get that all the fat has to be cut off the meat of the story to make a cohesive tv show that covers the main touchstones of the books. There is one story that matters, the story of how the main players get to the last battle, in the right place in terms of skill, emotions, character etc. Moiraine is not a main player in this, we know her role is going to diminish season to season, Siuan is not a main player in this, therefore the viewer only needs to know why they are looking for the dragon reborn, and why they are so connected to each other. The easiest way to do that, show them making plans to live a long and happy life together and then show them finding out something horrific that only they trust each other with. 

 How would it have required more screen time? If they had walked into the Amyrlin Seat instead of Gitara's private quarters? It would not have, at all, in any way. They could have ended the scene the same way with Gitara dying... if they never addressed the scene again because of time restraints, it would never have changed anything. If they ended up with more seasons and more time, then they could always show more...

[mogi68]

Siuan seems perfectly lucid in E7, there's no way all of her actions were a product of compulsion.

[Windigo]

On 10/2/2023 at 12:54 PM, DaddyFinn said:

I wonder, and I'm not alone with this idea, that maybe the show tries to avoid "power creep" in early seasons. Show our characters struggle some more and slowly take on their supposed roles as leaders, soldiers, kings etc. S3/S4 they might be set in their roles 

 

In other words: keep the tension and danger throughout the series so it doesn't feel like a walk in the park like the books did so often.

 

Editedit. That doesn't mean our heroes shouldn't get wins and cool moments when they are due

This makes a lot of sense, they appear to be doing the same with new cities/locations, I have a hunch we are also going to get the Forsaken the same way where they introduce only 1 or 2 per season. 

[Windigo]

14 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

there have been direct views of different level of power amongst channellers, but the signs  - number of threads, precision of lines, speed - are subtle, and I would not expect to get massive discussions about comparative strength.  I mean, whole chapters were dedicated to it in the books. When we have 64 hours, that's way too nuanced a topic to bring up. 

The show is doing a great job of adding this though it is subtle, I wish we had more examples from different sisters in the show, and I can not wait until we really have weaves from Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne.  
But you can see the differences in the brightness and thickness, colors of the different channelers. 
Even Moraines weaves when Siuan compels her to shut the way gate are different, less flowy, less bright. 

I am looking forward to looking closer at the differences in detail after season 2 is done 🙂 
 

[DreadLord31]

On a slightly different note: 

How many fake-out deaths do you think we’re going to get in this Season Finale?? + or - 1.5 ?? 😅 And how many actual deaths? 

 

I think +. For sure Rand. But also, perhaps Egwene …

And at least one real death, but pretty confident that we will get 3: 

Spoiler

Ingtar

Hopper

Bornhald Sr. 

 

[Samt]

2 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

On a slightly different note: 

How many fake-out deaths do you think we’re going to get in this Season Finale?? + or - 1.5 ?? 😅 And how many actual deaths? 

 

I think +. For sure Rand. But also, perhaps Egwene …

And at least one real death, but pretty confident that we will get 3: 

  Hide contents

Ingtar

Hopper

Bornhald Sr. 

 

Are we counting Ishamael?  

[Guire]

2 minutes ago, Samt said:

Are we counting Ishamael?  

I see Ishamael as a definite fake out death if they are not bringing in a Moridan actor seperately.  His on screen presence and interaction with Lanfear has been so good I dont think they want to send him away even if plan called for it.

 

Any surprise deaths possible? Siuan maybe or a warder? I think Barthanes is probably gone if not already.  Lady Anvaere might be an interesting tragoc death.

[DreadLord31]

2 hours ago, Guire said:

I see Ishamael as a definite fake out death if they are not bringing in a Moridan actor seperately.

Yeah, no way they’re bringing in a different actor; they’re gonna keep this Ishy & Lanfear & Liandrin & Valda as primary antagonists for the whole series. And next season add: Elaida & Couladin/Sevanna? 

Funny thing is, they are so much better written than most of our main “good” characters that … in this “turning of the wheel” … I hope they win! 😉 

 

Except for Fain - who they’ve oddly left out, almost entirely, of this season. Which makes it so that when he stabs Rand it’s gonna be like “hmmm, didn’t see THAT coming!” 
 

That being said, perhaps a surprise death could be … Renna ? It’s been promised… 

[Guire]

17 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Yeah, no way they’re bringing in a different actor; they’re gonna keep this Ishy & Lanfear & Liandrin & Valda as primary antagonists for the whole series. And next season add: Elaida & Couladin/Sevanna? 

Funny thing is, they are so much better written than most of our main “good” characters that … in this “turning of the wheel” … I hope they win! 😉 

 

Except for Fain - who they’ve oddly left out, almost entirely, of this season. Which makes it so that when he stabs Rand it’s gonna be like “hmmm, didn’t see THAT coming!” 
 

That being said, perhaps a surprise death could be … Renna ? It’s been promised… 

I am full team Lanfear at this point.  Gonna start a youtube channel dedicated to a Lanfear ruled age.  In this adaptation it might actually happen.  Look for incoming merch😁

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Guire said:

I am full team Lanfear at this point.  Gonna start a youtube channel dedicated to a Lanfear ruled age.  In this adaptation it might actually happen.  Look for incoming merch😁

They've done a great job with the villains. Lanfear and Ishy are every bit as compelling as Cerci and Jaime.

[A Memory Of Why]

6 hours ago, Guire said:

I think Barthanes is probably gone if not already.  Lady

 

I've read theories that I think could work..

 

Barthanes merged with the rebel (Toram?), Caroline Demondreds "cousin", he hooks up with Fain and is killed by Lan in Far Madding.

 

Anvaere merged with Colavere, I can see this having an impact with Rand not wanting to kill her.

 

I agree Ishy and Lanfear are amazing in this adaption but I hope they keep the DOs body swap mechanic. It really ups the anti for how crazy the shadow is and also shows how the DO breaks the rules.

[Scarloc99]

17 hours ago, Rhaze said:

 How would it have required more screen time? If they had walked into the Amyrlin Seat instead of Gitara's private quarters? It would not have, at all, in any way. They could have ended the scene the same way with Gitara dying... if they never addressed the scene again because of time restraints, it would never have changed anything. If they ended up with more seasons and more time, then they could always show more...

Because you can't just leave that it is general knowledge in that scene and then have so many aes sedai shocked that the dragon has returned. You have to spend screen time telling the story of how the secret was hidden by the black, you have to then explain why the 2 where not killed, and then show them becoming Aes Sedai and the pact they make. People really don't seem to understand that this story has to make sense to non book readers much more then it does us book readers because it is non book readers that are the key audience because there are more of them. There was a massive debate about how Liandrin got 3 girls out of Tar Valon, can you imagine the questions and debates about why is it that every Aes Sedai apart from Siuan and Moiraine has forgotten about that prophecy? 

[Guire]

5 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

I've read theories that I think could work..

 

Barthanes merged with the rebel (Toram?), Caroline Demondreds "cousin", he hooks up with Fain and is killed by Lan in Far Madding.

 

Anvaere merged with Colavere, I can see this having an impact with Rand not wanting to kill her.

 

I agree Ishy and Lanfear are amazing in this adaption but I hope they keep the DOs body swap mechanic. It really ups the anti for how crazy the shadow is and also shows how the DO breaks the rules.

I really like both actors in Damodred family so extending their runs would be great.  Seeing more mature Rand playing off Lady Anveare in court if she is jockying for power would be good TV.

[Scarloc99]

9 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Yeah, no way they’re bringing in a different actor; they’re gonna keep this Ishy & Lanfear & Liandrin & Valda as primary antagonists for the whole series. And next season add: Elaida & Couladin/Sevanna? 

Funny thing is, they are so much better written than most of our main “good” characters that … in this “turning of the wheel” … I hope they win! 😉 

 

Except for Fain - who they’ve oddly left out, almost entirely, of this season. Which makes it so that when he stabs Rand it’s gonna be like “hmmm, didn’t see THAT coming!” 
 

That being said, perhaps a surprise death could be … Renna ? It’s been promised… 

I have a feeling Fain won't be the one to stab Rand, I am also finding it interesting that people seem so accepting that Rands first wound will come from Fains blade and not Ishy's as it does in the book. Does this mean he won't be stabbed twice? 

but back to Fain, in the books his story kind of drifts off, it feels liek once he created him RJ wasn't really sure how to end his arc, and then we get BS awful ending. I think we might see Fain die far far sooner. The important thing here is Shadar Logath and the part it plays later, Fain as a character doesn't realy do much other then stab Rand (and kill off a few people Rand want's dead). 

[Mirefox]

3 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

I have a feeling Fain won't be the one to stab Rand, I am also finding it interesting that people seem so accepting that Rands first wound will come from Fains blade and not Ishy's as it does in the book. Does this mean he won't be stabbed twice? 

but back to Fain, in the books his story kind of drifts off, it feels liek once he created him RJ wasn't really sure how to end his arc, and then we get BS awful ending. I think we might see Fain die far far sooner. The important thing here is Shadar Logath and the part it plays later, Fain as a character doesn't realy do much other then stab Rand (and kill off a few people Rand want's dead). 

On top of that, season 1 ended with Fain showing up almost out of nowhere and getting stabby with the dagger.  I’d imagine they don’t want to be redundant here.

[bluetear111]

Im just wondering how long do we all think the last episode will be? I know these episodes are a touch over an hour long, but i cant help but feel where the characters are poised at the end of episode 7, it seems like there is still so much to cover for us to get to the end of the great hunt.

 

Will we get a 90 minute episode?

[nsmallw]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

but back to Fain, in the books his story kind of drifts off, it feels liek once he created him RJ wasn't really sure how to end his arc, and then we get BS awful ending. I think we might see Fain die far far sooner. The important thing here is Shadar Logath and the part it plays later, Fain as a character doesn't realy do much other then stab Rand (and kill off a few people Rand want's dead). 

I was so hoping the show would have a fuller version of Fain. Perhaps in season 3. 

[Rhaze]

8 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Because you can't just leave that it is general knowledge in that scene and then have so many aes sedai shocked that the dragon has returned. You have to spend screen time telling the story of how the secret was hidden by the black, you have to then explain why the 2 where not killed, and then show them becoming Aes Sedai and the pact they make. People really don't seem to understand that this story has to make sense to non book readers much more then it does us book readers because it is non book readers that are the key audience because there are more of them. There was a massive debate about how Liandrin got 3 girls out of Tar Valon, can you imagine the questions and debates about why is it that every Aes Sedai apart from Siuan and Moiraine has forgotten about that prophecy? 

 No they would not... why because you say so?

 

 A flashback is just that, a flashback.  It would have told the same thing... Moiraine and Siuan heard the Dragon Reborn was born. Gitara died... 2 other people including the Amyrlin heard it. Next scene....

 

I am sure people would ask well what happened to those other 2, same as they asked what was going on with the Lews Therin flashback. WAFO.

[Elder_Haman]

14 minutes ago, Rhaze said:

 No they would not... why because you say so?

 

 A flashback is just that, a flashback.  It would have told the same thing... Moiraine and Siuan heard the Dragon Reborn was born. Gitara died... 2 other people including the Amyrlin heard it. Next scene....

 

I am sure people would ask well what happened to those other 2, same as they asked what was going on with the Lews Therin flashback. WAFO.

Exactly. You could have done essentially the same scene with Moiraine and Siuan walking into the hall talking. But inside the chamber you have the Amyrlin and Gitara. Gitara says her prophecy and you give the Amyrlin a few extra lines swearing Moiraine and Siuan to secrecy and maybe a two-sentence bit of exposition on the fact that the Dragon's birth means the Last Battle is coming.

 

It just would have been a better scene, IMO. Not that what was in the show was bad, but it was (as my kids say) "mid". Like a C+ scene instead of an A.

[Mirefox]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Exactly. You could have done essentially the same scene with Moiraine and Siuan walking into the hall talking. But inside the chamber you have the Amyrlin and Gitara. Gitara says her prophecy and you give the Amyrlin a few extra lines swearing Moiraine and Siuan to secrecy and maybe a two-sentence bit of exposition on the fact that the Dragon's birth means the Last Battle is coming.

 

It just would have been a better scene, IMO. Not that what was in the show was bad, but it was (as my kids say) "mid". Like a C+ scene instead of an A.

It also would have given the writers an opportunity to give Gandalf’s powerful “so do all who see such times” speech from the Amyrlin to Siuan and Moiraine and show that it wasn’t just a private decision but a solemn duty.

[MarcusM]

On 10/1/2023 at 2:59 PM, Finnssss22 said:

 

My cold open guess involves a little cheating from casting leaks. I'll put a spoiler tag in so don't click if you don't want to know.

 

  Hide contents

It's probably a long shot but it's based on the premise that Rand and Turok will have their sword fight.

The cold open will indeed be LTT (already confirmed by leaks that he appears in e8) but it will him and Sammael (There's one actor left whose role has not been revealed yet who is the perfect Sammy) sword fighting where Sammy gets his scar.

There is then some LTT/Rand memory spillover that allows Rand to beat Turok.

 

Not bad. That could happen.

[Finnssss22]

10 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I have a feeling Fain won't be the one to stab Rand, I am also finding it interesting that people seem so accepting that Rands first wound will come from Fains blade and not Ishy's as it does in the book. Does this mean he won't be stabbed twice? 

but back to Fain, in the books his story kind of drifts off, it feels liek once he created him RJ wasn't really sure how to end his arc, and then we get BS awful ending. I think we might see Fain die far far sooner. The important thing here is Shadar Logath and the part it plays later, Fain as a character doesn't realy do much other then stab Rand (and kill off a few people Rand want's dead). 

 

I think RJ always knew how Fain would be killed (by Mat obviously) but yeah the when and how was still the question.

In end, most of the issues people have with Fain has to do with them being fooled into believing what Fain was preaching. Fain thought he was outside the Pattern and was destined for some great thing.

The reality was he was never outside the Pattern, he had delusions of grandeur and he was absolutely insane.

Shadar Logath was created by the Pattern 2000 years in advance of Rand needing it. Fain's whole purpose give or take was to deliver the means to Rand to figure out how to cleanse Saidin.

*EDIT* As well as being the catalyst to set all 3 boys on their respective paths. Perrin going to the Two Rivers to save it and unlocking Mat's initial memories as well as his need to acquire/replace more of them.

I mean you could maybe make the argument that Fain kept some of the Shadow's forces in check from time to time but really once he got Mat and Perrin going and stabbed Rand, he was just a big ole Red Herring for the rest of the series.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Finnssss22
On further thought...

[MarcusM]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:52 PM, Chivalry said:

I do recall at least one of the prior mentions, but that's my point - too many references but no clear explanation of why it matters. If they are going to provide some exposition, perhaps a brief explanation of the Karaethon Cycles would help, even if just a screen quote at the beginning of an episode, or a flashback scene of young Moiraine (or Verin) encountering or puzzling over the meaning of this particular prophecy.  Better yet, let's have Sherlock Lan discover the prophecy all by himself. 

Aha, I like this idea.

Better yet, I just now got confirmation from a very credible source that Lan is to become the permanent Karaetheon Warder of the White Tower libraries from now throughout the rest of the show. Apparently many viewers complained that all the prophesy was too obscurely delivered on screen and they realized they had to something significant. And obviously they got awesome feedback on the test concepts where Lan explored (... and here I quote my source) "his softer self" and "where he was to contribute more with reasoning, philosophy, literature".  So they realized that they would want him "to deliver frequent of insights from the Age of Legends throughout each episode from season 3". As a result they are apparently seriously considering removing Herid Fel completely and maybe reducing the brown-ish part of Verin's role significantly in favor to make her all black-ish.

So you see, they will make "a very modern completely non violent man out of him".