WoT Season 2 Episode 7: Daes Dae'Mar

[SinisterDeath]

This is the topic for Season 2, Episode 7: 

Director: Sanaa Hamri

Writers: Justine Juel Gillmer / Rafe Judkins

 

This topic is for discussing Episode 7 only. You should expect to encounter Full Spoilers Up To Episode 7, and full book spoilers on this topic.

[SinisterDeath]

I told y'all she wasn't stilled. 

 

Knotted weave male weave that women couldn't see.

 

Wasn't inverted. It was complex. 

[VooDooNut]

Favorite moment: Rand's spirit/fire knife and how it wavers as he's trying not to cut Moiraine's soul. (No biggie.)

 

Least Favorite Moment: All of Siuan's motivation to do what she did. Not how I thought the oath would be used, nor that it would be used so soon in the series.

 

[VooDooNut]

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I told y'all she wasn't stilled. 

Fo' real though. So glad we can put the kibosh on that one.

Edited September 29, 2023 by VooDooNut

[Pandemonium]

Can't say I love this episode, which is too bad after the momentum from last 3 episodes.  

Gitara's foretelling felt very underwhelming.  Usually the cold openings are great, but this one was rushed and.the acting felt odd.  Matt's hallucination scene was just really weird and I don't think provided that much insight into any character other than Ishamael.  

 

Bathanes darkfriend turn and sudden demise was way too abrupt.  Lanfear never attacked a city head on like that before in the books.  The whole thing where they said a forsaken is not strong enough to still a sister is ridiculous. 

 

Siuan seems so out of character.  They are doing way too much storytelling here.  Rand is so weak and he is heading into the final episode

 

Egwene and Perrin were best things about this episode.  

 

Yikes, I would say this is one of the worst episodes, but not as bad as season 1 episode 8.  

 

I have really tried to promote positivity this whole season and tried to get people involved watching the show.  I think this show still needs another 5-10 minutes per episode--- this was the most rushed episode for me.  

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Pandemonium

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

Can't say I love this episode, which is too bad after the momentum from last 3 episodes.  

Gitara's foretelling felt very underwhelming.  Usually the cold openings are great, but this one was rushed and.the acting felt odd.  Matt's hallucination scene was just really weird and I don't think provided that much insight into any character other than Ishamael.  

 

Bathanes darkfriend turn and sudden demise was way too abrupt.  Lanfear never attacked a city head on like that before in the books.  The whole thing where they said a forsaken is not strong enough to still a sister is ridiculous. 

 

Siuan seems so out of character.  They are doing way too much storytelling here.  Rand is so weak and he is heading into the final episode

 

Egwene and Perrin were best things about this episode.  

 

Yikes, I would say this is one of the worst episodes, but not as bad as season 1 episode 8.  

 

 

 

I really can't disagree.

 

I don't know why they have Lan playing One Power detective for Moiraine?

 

That doesn't feel like a puzzle he should solve on his own... 

 

Did I miss any note passing between him and Verin? 

 

Honestly, I'm just happy that whole plot line is finally finished. Done. Kaput. Move on.

 

People. Whining about the Stepping arc being too long, this has gone on for 7 episodes... 

[VooDooNut]

14 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

Can't say I love this episode, which is too bad after the momentum from last 3 episodes.  

Gitara's foretelling felt very underwhelming.  Usually the cold openings are great, but this one was rushed and.the acting felt odd.  Matt's hallucination scene was just really weird and I don't think provided that much insight into any character other than Ishamael.  

 

Bathanes darkfriend turn and sudden demise was way too abrupt.  Lanfear never attacked a city head on like that before in the books.  The whole thing where they said a forsaken is not strong enough to still a sister is ridiculous. 

 

Siuan seems so out of character.  They are doing way too much storytelling here.  Rand is so weak and he is heading into the final episode

 

Egwene and Perrin were best things about this episode.  

 

Yikes, I would say this is one of the worst episodes, but not as bad as season 1 episode 8.  

 

I have really tried to promote positivity this whole season and tried to get people involved watching the show,  but these writing choices were just baffling.

 

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I really can't disagree.

 

I don't know why they have Lan playing One Power detective for Moiraine?

 

That doesn't feel like a puzzle he should solve on his own... 

 

Did I miss any note passing between him and Verin? 

I'd echo all these critiques. Gitara scene at the beginning was rushed, as you said, but Rosamund Pike's younger Moiraine was not good.

I thought the Matt scene would be longer, with more of a...resolution. I will say, I like seeing myriad sides of Ishamael. He is the father of so many lies. He must be such a proud dad.

Agreed Bathane's was rushed. Not enough of an on-screen connection between himself and Avaere to sell it.

I bet Rand will do some crazy stuff next episode to make up for it.

"I will kill you"

I haven't enjoyed the last two episodes as much as this one, but I'm starting to think the last half of the season would view better in one sitting vs split up. We'll see.

P.S. Oh yes, Detective Lan was weird too. Rushed. Same with his Cat Crosses The Courtyard stuff. Oh well.

Edited September 29, 2023 by VooDooNut

[Finnssss22]

I highly doubt that Tea did anything other than put Mat to sleep. Everything after was Ishamael's doing in TAR.

One big con on Mat to set up yet another arrow aimed at breaking Rand.

Everything Ishy has done this season is to throw as many angles of pain and torment at Rand through his friends.

Just like everything Ishy did in season 1 was to manipulate Rand into breaking his Seal and fully setting him free.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Finnssss22

[Agitel]

Tea?

 

Still watching.

 

This conceit unsettles me. We'll see if that's all it is, but I feel like there are better ways to do this type of thing with T'A'R that don't involve something "new" like this.

[SinisterDeath]

11 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

P.S. Oh yes, Detective Lan was weird too. Rushed. Same with his Cat Crosses The Courtyard stuff. Oh well.

For one thing... I know Lan isn't a "meat head", but I'd think the topic of the one power would be really above his head, and some super rare topic like "knotted weaves from the age of Legends" had to have come from a sly Verin nudge... But I missed it if it was there.

 

But in modern terms... it felt like Lan was mansplaining Saidar to Moiraine... only she apparently didn't know anything... about the one power... Lol

[VooDooNut]

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

For one thing... I know Lan isn't a "meat head", but I'd think the topic of the one power would be really above his head, and some super rare topic like "knotted weaves from the age of Legends" had to have come from a sly Verin nudge... But I missed it if it was there.

 

But in modern terms... it felt like Lan was mandplaining Saidar to Moiraine, and he was right. Lol

100%. Still, I hope on a re-watch it doesn't come across as so off-key.

Edited September 29, 2023 by VooDooNut

[Agitel]

The way Moiraine described what shielding feels like...

[mogi68]

I really don't like what they did with Rand. On his knees/shielded and bound for half the episode, moments after "whatever happens, face it on your feet". Come on man

[VooDooNut]

2 minutes ago, mogi68 said:

I really don't like what they did with Rand. On his knees/shielded and bound for half the episode, moments after "whatever happens, face it on your feet". Come on man

Agreed, but I think his embarrassment/failure now will be his motivation later. "It's not just the people you love, it's the whole world you have to protect." Or whatever he said.

 

Spoiler

Also, this will probably be the start of him shooting off like a rocket through the next few seasons before... THE BOX *evil smirk*

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by VooDooNut

[Agitel]

There's our confirmation.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

17 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

19 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

For one thing... I know Lan isn't a "meat head", but I'd think the topic of the one power would be really above his head, and some super rare topic like "knotted weaves from the age of Legends" had to have come from a sly Verin nudge... But I missed it if it was there.

 

But in modern terms... it felt like Lan was mandplaining Saidar to Moiraine, and he was right. Lol

100%. Still, I hope on a re-watch it doesn't come across as so off-key.

It fits with the books - Aes Sedai are smugly convinced that they know everything it is worth knowing (about the one power and everything else) and until something new is rubbed in their faces they do not admit it exists.   Aes Sedai do not know how to tie off weaves therefore they cannot be tied off and she is not able to think otherwise so she must be stilled.  

 

But I really do not like the "one forsaken could not have stilled you" - when Rand breaks the shield at Dumai's wells he stills multiple Aes Sedai at once.  

[Pandemonium]

27 minutes ago, Finnssss22 said:

I highly doubt that Tea did anything other than put Mat to sleep. Everything after was Ishamael's doing in TAR.

One big con on Mat to set up yet another arrow aimed at breaking Rand.

Everything Ishy has done this season is to throw as many angles of pain and torment at Rand through his friends.

Just like everything Ishy did in season 1 was to manipulate Rand into breaking his Seal and fully setting him free.

I like this idea.  The scene where Ishy was holding Matt was really good, but it sure seems like the vision was more of Ishamael's vision than Matt's.

[VooDooNut]

Just now, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

It fits with the books - Aes Sedai are smugly convinced that they know everything it is worth knowing (about the one power and everything else) and until something new is rubbed in their faces they do not admit it exists.   Aes Sedai do not know how to tie off weaves therefore they cannot be tied off and she is not able to think otherwise so she must be stilled.  

 

But I really do not like the "one forsaken could not have stilled you" - when Rand breaks the shield at Dumai's wells he stills multiple Aes Sedai at once.  

Yep, I was thinking of exactly this moment with Rand. Maybe the kind of "weave expansion" stuff he was doing there was really honed by the time he breaks the box that he kind of over-does it, but perhaps its actually very hard/ impossible for most channelers to do on their own without the kind of practice he had while beat-boxing.

[Agitel]

Hmm...

 

I like and dislike them leaving with Lanfear. I see how it can work, but it still rankles a bit. Rand had a sort of truce with her at times... Feels like a change for Moiraine to be with a Forsaken. But maybe not. It's just more explicit and direct. She was aware of Asmodean.

 

And Lanfear and Ishy aren't exactly playing the same game. Some of their means may overlap a little.

 

BUT WHAT ABOUT MAT COME ON? WHERE'S MY BOY?

 

Even with these changes, I feel like this show could really use ten episodes a season for pacing and development purposes.

[Agitel]

Gitara's delivery didn't exactly sell me either. Definitely did not have the gravity and momentum it did in the books.

 

Overall I think I liked the episode, though.

[VooDooNut]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

Hmm...

 

I like and dislike them leaving with Lanfear. I see how it can work, but it still rankles a bit. Rand had a sort of truce with her at times... Feels like a change for Moiraine to be with a Forsaken. But maybe not. It's just more explicit and direct. She was aware of Asmodean.

 

And Lanfear and Ishy aren't exactly playing the same game. Some of their means may overlap a little.

 

BUT WHAT ABOUT MAT COME ON? WHERE'S MY BOY?

 

Even with these changes, I feel like this show could really use ten episodes a season for pacing and development purposes.

I don't know what is the worse of two evils, fewer details per episode, but better pacing, or more details but worse pacing. Rafe probably feels like he's in a vice.

[Pandemonium]

Also interesting is what will happen to Verin as she has basically declared herself a traitor against the Amyrlin.  It will be a real bummer if she is not at Falme to declare the five ride forth. 

[DreadLord31]

You know… I’ve never been happier to eat my own words. And I love that there was so much debate over “stilled” or “tied off” & now we got an answer. 
That shows good writing. 
But also, I echo the sentiment that “whew, glad that’s finally over.” 
 

However, I also have to agree and echo the complaints. This was … a rough episode & definitely throws waaay more fuel on the fire of — “come on man, you don’t have to neuter all the male characters to have awesome female characters.” 
 

I mean they purposely cut from Siuan single-handedly shielding and laying into Rand and having him on his knees — and saying, “We would have been so much better off if you were a woman.” To Egwene power display. (Shakes head). 
 

 

Alright though, initial positive reactions: 

1) Loved Lanfear costume and explosions

2) Loved Egwene and Senna. Senna: we have a noble purpose for doing this. Egwene: I’m going to kill you. 
3) Everything Isha’mael is golden. Though I do hope we also get insane Isha’mael

4) Ummm I like that Lan had a moment, though I didn’t make a ton of sense. I know writing wise they set it up “The key to a good Warder is that he protects you from yourself.” Still - super glad that plot line is finished. 
5) The acting all around was very good. 
6) The Special Effects were mostly good.

7) I like the Elayne/Nynaeve dynamic 

8.) Matt hanging? ! 
 

Ok, now the bad (and these are all writing decisions): 

1) Siuan - all of it, but in particular, Siuan is now gonna be on the side of Elaida/the Reds?? At least that’s what I think they’ve set up. 
2) Matt - why they got to triple down on Matt’s dad is garbage? I was never an Able Cauthon defender before WoTTv but now I feel like I got to say, “Hey, he was actually a good dude!” 
3) No Gaul. Why? Why not have him with Bain and Chiad? Is it that unbearable to have 1 awesome dude? 

4) A lot of the writing decisions felt rushed, sloppy, or just don’t make sense. LAN figuring out it’s tied off? Lanfear not killing Moiraine cause Rand stepped in front? 14 Aes Sedai link, not to immediately respond to stop Lanfear, but to make it rain hours later? Siuan goes alone to stop Rand & Moiraine? Perrin gets a ji’eh’toh lesson? Matt gets knocked out and brought to Falme by Lanfear? You literally had a scene where Alanna and her Warders are gonna help, and then the next scene they’re not there? 
 

Ok, some other things I noted: 

1) quadrupled down on battle in the sky! 
2) little maiden hand-talk, that’s cool, I see you 

3) we haven’t seen or heard of any of the other Shinarans in multiple episodes, probably gonna be another “whaaat?” when Hotsema just shows up again next episode. 
4) I was sure we were gonna get Matt looking at the dagger this episode … but, though I’ve been wrong about a lot of takes … here’s my hot take (that I’m confident of) for next episode Matt: Isha’mael offers him the dagger, he doesn’t take it, Fain does, and Fain stabs Rand & Matt “rescues” Rand - gets Nynaeve to power heal him. 
5) Was Bayle Domon just a cameo? 
6) There still was no training - so if, all of the sudden, next episode Rand kicks butt, it makes no sense … he should handily lose to both Turok and Isha’mael if we’re following the shows narrative. 
 

 

[Finnssss22]

12 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

5) Was Bayle Domon just a cameo? 
6) There still was no training - so if, all of the sudden, next episode Rand kicks butt, it makes no sense … he should handily lose to both Turok and Isha’mael if we’re following the shows narrative. 

 

Unless the ep8 cold open is LTT giving Sammael his scar while sparring in the AoL and we start getting some early LTT memories/voice.

Or Lan steps in.

 

Pretty sure Bayle is the trusted ship captain Ryma mentioned in ep6

 

Either way, the only thing that really didn't sit right for me was Lan figuring out the tied off weave stuff.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Finnssss22

[Finnssss22]

54 minutes ago, Pandemonium said:

I like this idea.  The scene where Ishy was holding Matt was really good, but it sure seems like the vision was more of Ishamael's vision than Matt's.

 

I have a feeling Mat blowing the Horn will be what they use to trigger his memories/past lives stuff.