New user, came to vent.

[SinisterDeath]

20 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

.and still it is a much more faithful adaptation than WOT will ever be because it captures the heart of  One Piece

Let's put it this way.

Cutting/Changing the clown arc, the people involved,  putting Nami into the story earlier and making her a "traitor", really is the equivalent rewriting Moiraine's arc in S2 to give her "more to do" in S2 then what happened in the books.

 

The "Captures the Heart" really comes down to style.

 

One Piece had manga and an anime. We already knew HOW it looked, and HOW it sounded.

 

Most people haven't reread the one piece manga 10 times, or rewatched the anime 10 times.

 

How many times have some of us reread the WoT books? 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Let's put it this way.

Cutting/Changing the clown arc, the people involved,  putting Nami into the story earlier and making her a "traitor", really is the equivalent rewriting Moiraine's arc in S2 to give her "more to do" in S2 then what happened in the books.

 

The "Captures the Heart" really comes down to style.

 

One Piece had manga and an anime. We already knew HOW it looked, and HOW it sounded.

 

Most people haven't reread the one piece manga 10 times, or rewatched the anime 10 times.

 

How many times have some of us reread the WoT books? 

I am wondering how many who "hate" the series have read it many timers over 8+? and how many have gone through it once and so have a bit of a nostalgic view about certain things. Certainly some of those who have major issues with the show seem to have forgotten, or not understood certain book themes and threads. I am not saying if you have not read the series x many times you can't be called a lover or your view is not valid, what I am saying is that there is so much in the book that one or 2 read throughs is not enough to remember all of it and so it is very easy to misremember details from the books that feed into some (not all) of the changes Rafe has made. 

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Certainly some of those who have major issues with the show seem to have forgotten, or not understood certain book themes and threads. I am not saying if you have not read the series x many times you can't be called a lover or your view is not valid, what I am saying is that there is so much in the book that one or 2 read throughs is not enough to remember all of it and so it is very easy to misremember details from the books that feed into some (not all) of the changes Rafe has made. 

Truth be told, I've personally re-read the series less than some of ya'll crazy people who re-read the before each new book came out, and then re-read it again every single year. I like to read new books, I don't got time to re-read the same book over and over again.

Either way, I'm the guy that can go years between re-reads and still recall random information some of you can't recall a day after reading that same book! 

When I FIRST read the series, I read it very thoroughly. 
I was reading it between classes, even during class, and I'd often re-read the same chapter 6-10 times before moving on to the next chapter because I'd only get a paragraph in here, or a paragraph in there, and I'd just restart an entire chapter when if I had no idea what was going on. ^{(Except the Perrin/Faile kidnap Chapters)}

When it comes to our individual attachment to a book series and how it's adapted (how accurately, well, poorly, etc) that just comes down to our individual personal views.

There's adaptations that the fanbase absolutely despise, that I have no strong feelings about the adaptation.

The Last Airbender is a prime example of this. I've never watched the Cartoon. I've heard it's an absolute crap adaptation, but I have no strong feelings on that front because the movie was just "meh".
If anything, I recall that the casting in that film was severely guilty of being white washed.

Then there's adaptations that are completely different from the original that I don't care that are different.. I actually ENJOY them better for being different.
Case in point.
The Shining.

 

Then there's adaptations that I actively hate because I've read the source because they used the name nothing else. 
Example? I, Robot.
As a film, it's an okay adventure flick. As an adaptation. I absolutely despise it. 

These are just my opinions. I don't try to force them down anyone's throat. 

I can give you reasons for my I think something works in an adaptation. Why I might like it in an adaptation. Or speculate how the changes made so far could affect future seasons based on what we know in the books, because for me that's half the fun of discussing an adaptation.

If everything was exactly the same as the books, don't think we'd be discussing much of anything.

[books of Robert Jordan]

RitualM,

 

I didn't read Sanderson's books, I didn't watch a second of Judkins' show (not even the trailer).

My life still feels complete.
 

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 10/20/2023 at 10:08 AM, Mirefox said:

Poor writing can be evaluated objectively and this show has objectively poor writing.  If you enjoy it, that’s great for you.  I enjoy some shows with bad writing.

 

I for the life of me, though, do not understand the writing apologists.  Why can’t we demand better?  Why can’t we point out that every single episode is packed full of nonsense?

 

 

 

You nailed it.  Very much the way I see things too.  I want the show to be good, but IMHO it won't be truly great until they get better writers and showrunner.  

 

What I think irritates most of us who don't really like the show is that it could have been much better than GOT as it has better and more complete source material.  It is also a story that more people will relate to.  However since they gave it to questionable writers who either don't have much talent, or can't shrug off studio interference then we have what we have now.  

 

This isn't a problem just with this show.  Even Starwars, The Witcher, and Marvel have all taken their turns recently with abysmal writing.  You have people like Timothy Zahn and Brandon Sanderson sitting on the bench with hits galore and this is what we get on screen?  They could do much better with better writing. 

 

[Cipher]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:05 PM, Mailman said:

Bollocks

 

Some parts are 100% open to factual objective analysis. If you break your own established world rules that is bad writing. If you write your characters to do something that is completely against anything that character would ever do then that is bad writing.

 

Are you telling me that if Rand pulled out a rocket launcher at the start of S3 and used it to kill Egwene that we could not objectively analyze that as bad writing.

I think a rocket launcher to kill Egwene would be a interesting direction for Wheel of Prime.  I never would have seen it coming as a book reader and it would keep me guessing at what would come next.

It also would sub-marine Rafe’s favorite character and I would consider that as an act of vengeance for what he has done to characters I care about. 

[Shawlee]

On 9/25/2023 at 5:17 AM, Scarloc99 said:

Hi good to see you, there are several posts here about the show and a few people who share your opinions, but the majority of us think the show is good, we understand the reasons behind many of the artistic decisions taken and while we may disagree with some overall this is the story told in the WOT 

3 posts probably worth reading fully and then commenting on are rather then starting another one. But I will say if your expectation is a forum full of hate for the show you are in the wrong place, there are some who will agree with you to a point, but many, like me, love the show I myself have read the series end to end about 15 times and I absolutely love what they have done to tell the story, and think many of the changes have enhanced the weaker elements of the books. You also need to consider that in book 2, which is where we are, Nymaeve was petulant, Matt was under the effects of the dagger and was a bit like this Matt, Lan, some feel like you, but others of us love this change to the character as it actually gives him an arc instead of just being the Aragorn rip off you see in the start of the books, this is the Lan that RJ tried to turn Lan into later on. 

But read the posts below and feel free to comment on any points you disagree with, there is a lot of back and forth about the points you have made.  

 

 

Thanks you for this post! And your words about, this is not a place where you can just hate on the show. I appreciate that and you for saying it. I disagree with a lot but i still think the show has potential. And the fact that they are pulling on from the future storylines, and the characters arc. I completely agree with what you said about Nynaeve. The way she treats the  4 in the show, it really reflects a more mature nynaeve. Just the way she touched Mat's head in the last scene. This is nynaeve on the inside, beneath the hard shell. I think this is what RJ has been trying paint for Nynaeve to feel like. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Shawlee

[Berty1102]

This whole show is a train wreck if you know and loved the books. They could have done a season for each book and have enough for at least 10 episodes. It’s bad and I’ve told everyone to watch the show if you are thinking of reading the books. Love the books and the characters from them and how they grow and change but the show has basically kept their names and nothing else. 

[Skipp]

17 hours ago, Berty1102 said:

This whole show is a train wreck if you know and loved the books. They could have done a season for each book and have enough for at least 10 episodes. It’s bad and I’ve told everyone to watch the show if you are thinking of reading the books. Love the books and the characters from them and how they grow and change but the show has basically kept their names and nothing else. 

Agreed, more seasons and more episodes would be wonderful but unfortunately those are not on the table at this time.  I do disagree that doing a season a book would be a good idea, there are a fair amount of content that can be condensed or merged into other plots.

 

But it sucks that you didn't enjoy what was on screen, it is never fun to be disappointed. But there is more to the show that simply keeping the names the same. The show hasn't exactly had time to show the growth and change that happens throughout the series.  I can see the seeds of growth for some characters and for others they are already starting to bloom.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Skipp

[Sabio]

On 10/2/2023 at 1:08 PM, CaddySedai said:

I am of the opinion than any Wheel of Time and Wheel of Time adjacent content is good content. 

 

I mean they could have done us dirty like what happened to RoP. You think our fanbase is vocal? Eep. 

 

That said even the most faithful of adaptations would have found detractors. Less? Probably. But all good things are subject to the winds of change. 

 

The current winds dictate the current adaptation. Perhaps in the future should there remain demand for such - we could see a retelling. 

 

I mean Max is about to reboot Potter and totally hijack one of the greatest movie scores of all time lol. And their fandom just got a new banger of a video game. 

 

I would kill for a new video game in our fandom. 

 

I want content, I want to grow, I detest stagnation. 

 

I mean look at Star Wars - my kin in that fanbase had to suffer through so much shovelware just for a few gemstones. And its not a Disney only problem - this goes back to Lucas era. Disney just has had the unfortunate ability to produce so MANY turds in such a small window. Lucas really had to stew on his. lol. 

 

People coming to vent is also content. So carry on. 

ROP wasn't great, an average series to me.  But some of the complaints about ROP isn't fair simply because the The Tolkien Estate imposed creative restrictions on the series and limited the lore and resources, plus Amazon only bought the rights to LOTR and the Hobbit.  They were forced to get most of the information for the series from those.  They had no choice but to make a lot of stuff up.  WOT pretty much had no such restrictions.  

Edited October 29, 2023 by Sabio

[Scarloc99]

On 10/28/2023 at 1:42 AM, Berty1102 said:

This whole show is a train wreck if you know and loved the books. They could have done a season for each book and have enough for at least 10 episodes. It’s bad and I’ve told everyone to watch the show if you are thinking of reading the books. Love the books and the characters from them and how they grow and change but the show has basically kept their names and nothing else. 

No you couldn't because after 3 seasons of watching our main characters run away from a thing, or chase a thing, fall into a trap and then Rand have a big epic showdown the show would have become repetitive and the storyline dull. 

I know I love the books and this is not a train wreck, Witch was a train wreck, ROP was a train wreck, WOT sticks much much much closer to the source material then either of these and the changes make logical sense for showing the story on the screen. 

[Scarloc99]

On 10/29/2023 at 4:30 AM, Sabio said:

ROP wasn't great, an average series to me.  But some of the complaints about ROP isn't fair simply because the The Tolkien Estate imposed creative restrictions on the series and limited the lore and resources, plus Amazon only bought the rights to LOTR and the Hobbit.  They were forced to get most of the information for the series from those.  They had no choice but to make a lot of stuff up.  WOT pretty much had no such restrictions.  

Sorry the "creative restrictions" did not mean that Galadrial had to save Sauron from drowning, or have the stupid Mithril will save the elves, or the condensced timeline squeezing what 3-4000 years of lore into 250, 

Not having the Hobit or LOTR didn't stop the writers shoehorning Hobbit adjacent characters in, or getting us forgetful Gandalf, 

There was plenty of stuff in the Simarilion to make a really good story without making all those changes and more. The main thread was there, you just have to flesh it out with good story writing, not the absolulte gumpf we where given. I really wish Rafe had been given ROP budget so we could have had the size and scale of ROP with his story. 

[Sabio]

Budget doesn't matter as long at Amazon stays to the stupid 8 episode season.  Unless they make each episode 2 hrs (which I fear Rafe would just waste on pointless stuff).  It might make the CGI less horrendous.

[Scarloc99]

11 hours ago, Sabio said:

Budget doesn't matter as long at Amazon stays to the stupid 8 episode season.  Unless they make each episode 2 hrs (which I fear Rafe would just waste on pointless stuff).  It might make the CGI less horrendous.

nothing he or his writers have added is pointless, you might not agree with the creative choices but it all exposes viewers to lore, it all shows important elements of the characters and works to help develop them, in some ways better then the books (Moiraine does not really have any kind of an arc in the books). I agree 10 episodes a season would give it better room to grow, but my concern is that we where told this would be Amazons GOT, the battle of falme felt so far removed from it. I almost found myself wishing it was filmed at night, at winterfell. 

As rubbish as GOT got the one thing it had was vast big battles, the battle of the bastards felt big, the siege of the saved slaver city (forget it's name) felt like a real seige, you had large numbers of extras and a real sense of scale, even when the action went into close quarters fighting and close up edits and cuts. The battle of Falme had none of that sense, what it felt like was that the director had about 20 extras to dress up as seanchan or whitecloaks, and had to decide scene by scene who was which. 

 

[Sabio]

An entire episode in season 1 getting us invested in a warder just to kill him at the end was pointless.  Morianes family, while interesting and I enjoyed, was pointless because that time took away from developing the main characters.  Rand running errands for Logian really didn't add much.  In a short 8 episode series such as WOT, time matters.  I understand giving the characters some depth, but they have too little time and they spend too much time focusing on side issues at the expense of the main story and characters.  The last episode of season 2 showed the cost of the extra stuff being added by leaving the episode feeling like a hurried mess.  Where the key details were rushed through and things lacked impact and understanding.

 

 

 

[Scarloc99]

12 hours ago, Sabio said:

An entire episode in season 1 getting us invested in a warder just to kill him at the end was pointless.  Morianes family, while interesting and I enjoyed, was pointless because that time took away from developing the main characters.  Rand running errands for Logian really didn't add much.  In a short 8 episode series such as WOT, time matters.  I understand giving the characters some depth, but they have too little time and they spend too much time focusing on side issues at the expense of the main story and characters.  The last episode of season 2 showed the cost of the extra stuff being added by leaving the episode feeling like a hurried mess.  Where the key details were rushed through and things lacked impact and understanding.

 

 

 

OK, Rand getting the wine is what lead to Moiraine finding him and saving him from Lanfer, it also allowed the writers to put in something from the books, something that fans are complaining about not happening. That simple request by Logain is teh trigger to allow a set of circumstances to happen logically in the story. 

That "entire episode" about steppin, Steppin is actually in that episode for I think a total of about 7 minutes, the episode is about Tower politics, It is about introducing Siuan, showing the relationship betwene her and Moiraine, it is about so so much more then Steppin. But, the Steppin arc does demonstrate the bond, it shows the audience what happens with a warder loses the bond. People are fixating on Steppin however and ignore that is the minor part of the episode, it is not the important thing. Remove Steppin you still have to introduce the tower and tower olitics in season 1. You still need a Tar Valon POV episode so you still have to find a reason to get Moiraine to Tar Valon, having an Aes Sedai killed by Logain ties him emotionally to all those characters, having the warder then kill himself again ties Logain to those characters. 

The pacing of season 2 was great, the end for me and more importantly the non book readers that I know who love the show (about 20 odd now) landed really really well, could the show do with having a 10 episode season, yes, but Falme was always going to be done in one episode you don't spread a fight like that  out over 2. Nothing earlier in the show would have changed that, because that breaks all the rules of episodic TV writing.

 

[Pukel-man]

I hope the original poster has stopped watching the show. I grudge-watched all of season one just to see if things would improve, and it did not pay off for me. It's not an approach I would recommend. 😉

 

Some shows have good writing, and some don't. Wheel of Time doesn't.

[DigificWriter]

On 10/30/2023 at 5:11 AM, Scarloc99 said:

There was plenty of stuff in the Simarilion to make a really good story without making all those changes and more

 

Amazon doesn't have filmic rights to The Silmarillion, so the creative team behind RoP were forced to create their own story by drawing on the sources - the LotR novels and their Appendices - that they did have filmic rights to and that didn't directly rehash the Peter Jackson LotR Trilogy (despite not being legally able to directly reference it, there was no desire to supplant it).

 

On 10/27/2023 at 6:42 PM, Berty1102 said:

This whole show is a train wreck if you know and loved the books.

 

There are a number of incredibly prominent, well-known, and well-respected die-hard book fans - many of whom I've previously cited directly by either their real names or their online handles - who would loudly and vociferously dispute this statement.

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Amazon doesn't have filmic rights to The Silmarillion, so the creative team behind RoP were forced to create their own story by drawing on the sources - the LotR novels and their Appendices - that they did have filmic rights to and that didn't directly rehash the Peter Jackson LotR Trilogy (despite not being legally able to directly reference it, there was no desire to supplant it).

 

 

There are a number of incredibly prominent, well-known, and well-respected die-hard book fans - many of whom I've previously cited directly by either their real names or their online handles - who would loudly and vociferously dispute this statement.

I didn’t know that (re rop) although there is still enough in those appendacies to make a far far better series then this. 
 

and @Berty1102 I can confirm making sweeping statements that assume is generally not a good thing to do. Loads of book lovers who have been reading since eotw was released or just after love the tv show and understand the reason for changes, we might not fully agree with them all but we also understand that what one loves another will always disagree with. 

[expat]

Two points that are unspoken underlying assumptions on most of these types of posts.

1. The show runners are first and foremost trying to make an entertaining TV series.  Fidelity to Robert Jordon's work is important, but they are willing to make changes if they think that it will make better TV.  You can certainly argue that the writers might not understand what makes good TV and they might not have the skills to execute their vision. If we took a poll asking if we wanted better TV at the cost of fidelity or higher fidelity at the cost of worst TV, we all know which side would win.

 

What the critics refuse to acknowledge and credit however is that one thing the writers are very good at is identifying what doesn't make good TV.  Things that work in books may or may not work on screen and one of the first acts of an adaption should be to remove the elements that make bad TV. There are many elements of WOT that don't make good TV as written.  The extensive character arcs that are almost all POV, the repetition of the first 3 books (travelogue with duplicative fights as Scarloc99 points out), unfilmable scenes (the fight in the sky at Falme), exposition heavy lore and world building etc.  So in addition to changes required for cost/logistic reasons, cutting material to fit the series length and having to write additional material to compensate for the missing material, they changed things because filming it as in the books would have been lousy TV.  So all the posters venting that they want more fidelity, seriously think about whether (some) of the things that got removed and rewritten would be good TV if left as written in the books.  Bad TV for the sake of book fidelity is never the right answer.

 

2. Another fundamental assumption that colors how we view the series is the degree of difficulty we assign to the task of adapting WOT.  I would wager a good portion of my hypothetical fortune that the people who like the show would rate the adaption difficulty as harder than the people who want to be closer to the books.  I think that this is a very hard series to adapt and expected a lot of changes and willing to tolerate them if the TV is good and I can understand why they made the changes.  If you think that this isn't too hard to adapt without a lot of changes, then it makes sense to be upset with the number of changes.   

[WheelofJuke]

Nothing makes good tv if the writers are bad. 😐

Edited November 27, 2023 by WheelofJuke
Spellin'

[JaimAybara]

I am one of the resident naysayers but never begrudge anyone who likes the show. Anecdotal as it is, I had three friends who read this series multiple times since high school or college, all of which went through all the stages of grief as they watched it, and the newcomers who just read it prior to the show who couldn’t stand it, there was 7 of us total for our watch parties. With that said, if you do/did I envy you and am happy you’re having a good time. I’ll go over the good which I did find some/and the bad from my perspective. Some from season 1 and now that I’ve seen all of season 2, from it as well. 
 

Things done well:

 

1. Egwene’s character development. Great job in covering how channelers are perceived by the Seanchan  as well as the horrors of the a’dam. Really solid work. 
 

2. Elayne’s personality and her noble air were fantastic. I think they leaned a little too much into the “privilege” aspect of the high born concept, and made me roll my eyes a bit when she walked into Egwene’s room and and couldn’t figure out it wasn’t already furnished, but somehow could identify two rivers stitchwork on the blanket, it was weird she was so observant and yet oblivious at the same time,  but when she stood up to Sheriam and nobly took her punishment, that was done quite well and her personality seems right on the money. 
 

3. The performance from the new actor who plays Mat. Loved the cheekiness he brought to the screen, he genuinely made me laugh and smile, but wish the script helped him more in achieving this goal. 
 

4. Practical Effects of Trollocs were pretty good. 
 

5. Whitecloaks costume design also got a huge facelift from what I remember from season 1 to season 2.
 

Things I don’t think were done very well: 
 

Both seasons regularly malign the men to elevate female counterparts or merely focus on them and before people come at me like this is an invention of the mind or made up…

 

1) Perrin Kills a wife he never had. (Horrible choice and terribly executed Fridging). 

2) Rand either severely wounds or kills someone for being mean, and sleeps with Lanfear. He never slept with Lanfear in the series and rejected her as Selene.  

3) Mat wounds Rand and even after healing isn’t really helpful. 
4) Rand’s big moment in both Eye of the World and The Great Hunt are either given to the women or greatly reduced and he requires saving. 
The men all come off as incompetent at best or are just kind of there... it’s like they are passengers in their own plot lines. 
 

It’s only highlighted further when they spend the majority of the time with the ladies and really only give them the positive screen time. The director even admitted to Egwene to being his favorite, which is fine, but I don’t think there is really any argument to be had that her story wasn’t the best of season #2…while the guys in comparison are all hardly getting any impactful screen time. The men also require being saved when they weren’t in the books, and they kill off characters that never died for a desperate attempt at “dramatic effect.” The Magic system is also extremely inconsistent or not explained well. Moiraine had an inverted weave used on her for a shield, but there’s no reason she wouldn’t be able to sense the source, just wouldn’t be able to access it. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the magic system works from the writers. I loved the animated shorts compared to the live action and honestly think 10 seasons of that animation style would have been absolutely incredible. I wish I got 50 min episodes of that. It was done so well. The scale, the lore, the pacing, the artwork, did anyone else feel that way?  17 minutes of animated shorts wasn’t enough. 
 

Excuses I see used too often: 

 

1. “We had to cut characters for time.” Yet they had enough time to add entire episodes for characters that weren’t present or stories that they completely invented.  
 

2. “It’s a new turning of the wheel.” Even if I wanted to subscribe to this, it’s not. A new turning would be new lives, potentially having Perrin, Rand, and Mat as distant memories. At best this is a reflection world, or a world of what could have been…which was also something they cut completely from the story. 

 

3. “This was to streamline the plot and create character development,” okay then…how come such techniques for character development weren’t used for any of the women? Why are all the terrible behaviors and horrible parents, and things of the like reserved for the men? Sure, family died for Nyneave, but how come Egwene didn’t have some vice added and her mom wasn’t a thieving drunk? Or how come Elayne didn’t accidentally kill her brothers? These are extremely lazy and negative tropes, that they only felt necessary for the men to experience and this was done with intent. 

 

Rand only learned the sword off screen when he should have been taught by Lan, and they added a convoluted story about him being an aid at a mental health facility of some kind, they turned the really cool subplot of the invitations and Daes Dae’Mar into a tepid scene at best, (he should have been with Hurin and Loial), they gave him a throwaway line about “Cat Crosses the Courtyard,” to imply he’s learned the sword, he was easily knelt and shielded by a single Aes Sedai, either extremely wounds or kills someone who although not a good person was out of character for him especially at this point in the story, he slept with Lanfear and needed to be saved by Moiraine when he rejected her as Selene in the book, subsequently they cut the blademaster duel, as well as Ingtar’s redemption arc, and Rand’s shining moment against Ishamael. Rand is proven to be incapable again and the miracle that reveals him to the world is extremely underwhelming.

 

Mat had the introduction to his prowess with the bowstaff literally given to Nyneave. It easily could have introduced Galad and Gawyn, but they needlessly show Nynaeve fighting with a sword instead and keep Mat locked in the basement forever... Instead of having him locked up it would have been a perfect time to show us he’s gained luck at taverns…fighting Galad and Gawyn, meeting Hammar…having a flashback to his dad teaching him. Etc. The female characters already have amazing moments, but every single one now for the men in two seasons have been either given to the women, watered down, or flipped it into they need to be saved. I think you would be hard pressed to say the most impressive stories in both seasons didn’t involve Egwene, Nynaeve, or Moiraine. 

 

As for Perrin…his entire character was gutted in the first episodes of the show, he is more depressing of a character now than he ever was in Winter’s Heart or the “slog” and they haven’t even begun to show us how he is going to climb out of his mental hole, and I’m not sure they can. Two entire seasons to barely touch a weapon…hell he hasn’t even been depicted as an effective blacksmith yet really. I remember his wife working the forge more than he did, and maybe he was looking around a bit in Fal Dara at forges? Also, when he saved Gaul in the book the cage it is depicted as many feet up in the air that took multiple men to set into place. In the show it’s not even a foot off the ground and it’s Aviendha. He should have killed whitecloaks in season 1 when they were captured and should have been the one that broke them out, not Egwene. Also, it would have been perfectly fine for the actual struggle he had to be killing whitecloaks and not a fake wife he never had…that was seriously unforgivable and was advised against by Sanderson…and his character has been so lost ever since due to that creative choice. Unlike some, I’m not always opposed to fridging if done well…but this was not only an invented act of fridging that didn’t move the character forward, it completely changes the character.  If anything, he has been the most stagnant character in the entire show now, barely even touching an axe that he could have had the entire time had they just told the story as it was written in the book. 
 

other characters that were done dirty in both seasons: (side note, any time something is critiqued for the ladies I’ve seen, it’s because they were given an ability or do something that they didn’t have/do. It’s a negative due to an additional trait or action, whereas the men’s negatives are always due to either a negative trait being given to them or a skill being nerfed or completely removed). 

Uno: the character that was arguably the most faithful to the books in the entire show gets curb stomped on a horn… 

 

Ingtar: A subplot about redemption is completely forgotten nor is he even given memorable lines as a character. 
 

Bran: You wouldn’t know he was the mayor of Emond’s Field or that the village Council is the male counterpart to the Women’s Circle.

 

Hurin: A Great tertiary character who is just  a servant/Normal dude who when told by the heroes of the horn there is no shame in not fighting pulls out his weapon to ride with Artur Hawkwing and the heroes of old…and beams* with pride when Artur says something to the tune of, “we sometimes add to our ranks,” Such a cool moment. (This couldn’t happen because we didn’t introduce Elyas when we should have, and we had to have Moiriane’s family drama that never happened eat up time).
 

Elyas: Introduced late and should have challenged the way of the leaf in season 1 in order to push Perrin’s character development way earlier. It would have also given great discussions to be had as a viewer reader or not. Violence or non-violence? Instead of hearing two great arguments from different sides, we got a monologue from one perspective. 
 

Loial: Literally had all of his purpose given to Moiraine. Hardly ever lends knowledge to the viewer especially regarding prophesy when he would be perfect for it. He Looked to be stabbed with A Shadar Logoth dagger but apparently is okay now. 
 

Agelmar: Season 1) killed. One of the Five great captains, and in the book was deeply respectful of women and revered the Aes Sedai, was reduced to a sexist

and arrogant fool. 
 

Abel: Season 1) Went from being a father who taught Mat about horse trading, Bowstaff fighting, and walking to Tar Valon with Tam to find their boys…to a Drunken, cheating, coward, who left his daughters to be eaten by Trollocs. Yes, he didn’t have a ton of page time, but this was just another example of character assassination that wasn’t necessary. If anything, showing him use a staff at Bel Tine earlier would have explained Mat’s skills more effectively later.
 

Tam: Season 1) Went from taking on multiple Trollocs by himself at the farmhouse to not even being able to take on 1 without help. He’s a blademaster, expert archer, and competent Bowstaff fighter…but not made to be on screen. Tigraine on the other hand, takes on 7 assailants while giving birth… nerfing of the men, elevation of the women. 

Lan: Season 1/2) Gets bested constantly in combat, has Nynaeve sneak up on him and get a knife to his throat, then has to ask her how to track Moiraine…because “she has a tell,” has his speech ruined by immediately having him sleep with her after he gives it, has his tea drugged by his friend who he was supposed to be guarding who then kills themself…this guy is supposed to be one of the best warriors in the world and it never comes off that way. 
 

Anyways, I hope this articulates some of my grievances, as well as show some of the things they did do well. I do think Rings of Power is worse, “I aaaaaaam Gooooooood!” Lolol, but they didn’t have the Silmarillion to work off of directly, this show literally had all the books to draw from. At least Rings of Power has that excuse. Regardless, may you always find water and shade, enjoy yourself with the show, and if not, dive back into the books or audiobooks. Cheers. 

 

 

Edited January 8 by JaimAybara
Beams* spelling

[Jaccsen]

On 9/25/2023 at 5:17 AM, Scarloc99 said:

Hi good to see you, there are several posts here about the show and a few people who share your opinions, but the majority of us think the show is good, we understand the reasons behind many of the artistic decisions taken and while we may disagree with some overall this is the story told in the WOT 
 

 

I agree with the OP. The show is a bait and switch in that they call it Wheel of Time but it is a reimagining of the source material. Rafe was even quoted as saying it was his version of a turning of the wheel.

 

Honestly, the majority just moved on to other things. I quite after S1 Episode 6. There is no reason to give it another chance. 

[Jaccsen]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:09 PM, Scarloc99 said:

I am wondering how many who "hate" the series have read it many timers over 8+? and how many have gone through it once and so have a bit of a nostalgic view about certain things. Certainly some of those who have major issues with the show seem to have forgotten, or not understood certain book themes and threads. I am not saying if you have not read the series x many times you can't be called a lover or your view is not valid, what I am saying is that there is so much in the book that one or 2 read throughs is not enough to remember all of it and so it is very easy to misremember details from the books that feed into some (not all) of the changes Rafe has made. 

 

I have read the series multiple times. 

 

The show takes minor one off sentences or references in the books and dedicates whole episodes to them while shorting main characters and story arcs or even changing them to suit their own narrative.

 

A lot of the content from season 1 either never happened in the books or were based on minor plot mentions. You cannot even use the excuse that they needed to cut or adapt to fit into 8 episodes as many of the 8 episodes were filled with content that was not in the books. You cannot argue that they needed to cut content and then fill it with their own content while ignoring better written scenes or pieces from the source material.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Sometimes I really wonder if the concept of adapting something for a different medium is so alien to people. 

 

Obviously the makers of the show have their own take - such as the enlargement of Moiraine's role - her fleshed out relationship with Suian, her aging so that the effect of her greatly lengthened life can be examined and shown, the attention given to her and Lan's relationship. But these are a change of emphasis, which should still be illuminating the same world and story.

 

There are lots of things about the show that I find disappointing, so I can understand for some people that it can be even more disappointing. There are really a lot of issues that they could have kept more accurate to the lore and still told the same story. 

 

I still find it worrying that so many people take Mat's parents as such an example of sexism. Mat's father is worse than the books, an attack on all men. Mat's mother is worse than in the books, an attack on Mat and all men. Just as long as we are being consistent.

 

For Perrin, his character has been not destroyed - he did not murder his wife. Nor was she fridged - that trope is particularly about how male characters are motivated in a story by the antagonist infringing their patriarchal property. This is not the case here. What I would say is more relevant is that they have done exactly nothing with this addition to Perrin's character. And it gives him a reason to avoid the Two Rivers - while Mat is given a compelling reason to return, which again as of yet they have done very little with.

 

It is a shame for the accuracy of the show that the first season had to be different, given that the Dragon being teased could not be done when it was publicized that the show was all about the Dragon. Given the sensible choice to make the starting characters act like literal children or hobbits, and the greater emphasis on Moiraine, the changes forced by needing to simplify the number of locations, etc, the lack of budget... And then the troubles that have plagued it since due to corona, schedule conflicts due to corona, Barney dropping out, etc, meaning that the end of season one was a literal disaster and season two must have been rewritten several times.

 

But for me there is more than enough to keep the show very enjoyable, and I am eager for more. And I'll never understand those that refuse to watch it because Rand has sex with Egwene. As if that makes a difference, but yeah, as I say, I don't understand it.

Edited January 11 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade
not is a rather important word...