WoT Season 2 - I WATCHED ALL THE EPISODES TOPIC

[Mirefox]

11 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Counterstroke noun
: a return stroke : COUNTERBLOW
He said the response wasn't over and the US could take further, covert action—a thinly veiled reference to a counterstroke in cyberspace the US has been considering.

Side Effect noun
: a secondary and usually adverse effect (as of a drug)
toxic side effects
 called also side reaction

I put those definitions up there, because while the two words aren't synonymous, consider this.

What do you do when you notice a Mosquito biting you?

You slap it.

Is that a counterstroke? Or a side effect of noticing it sucking your blood? 

It is both, depending on if you are the human or the mosquito.

 

But the analogy is invalid anyways.  We know you slap a mosquito because over the course of human history the hundreds of billions of times humans have been bitten by mosquitos they have learned that you either slap the bug or suffer an itchy bite.  It is an action with known consequences and a known solution.

 

In this show, it is stated as a fact that if Lews Theron sealed away the Dark One, something that had never been done before, the result would be a tainting of the One Power, something that had never been done before and something with no direct causal relationship to the actions taken.  It was a nonsensical line in the show and was only there to Paint LT as a fool who absolutely knew the consequences of his action.

 

Edit:  You added a M:TG analogy that does the same thing as your mosquito analogy.  If I play against a blue control deck, I know the possible consequences, whether you call them counterattacks or side effects.  But I've played thousands of Magic games.  It isn't a valid analogy.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Mirefox

[SinisterDeath]

18 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

It is both, depending on if you are the human or the mosquito.

 

But the analogy is invalid anyways.  We know you slap a mosquito because over the course of human history the hundreds of billions of times humans have been bitten by mosquitos they have learned that you either slap the bug or suffer an itchy bite.  It is an action with known consequences and a known solution.

 

In this show, it is stated as a fact that if Lews Theron sealed away the Dark One, something that had never been done before, the result would be a tainting of the One Power, something that had never been done before and something with no direct causal relationship to the actions taken.  It was a nonsensical line in the show and was only there to Paint LT as a fool who absolutely knew the consequences of his action.

Lets consider the topic of causal relationship for a moment.

The One Power is inherently tied to the fabric of reality. I think we can all agree on this premise.

 

The OP Element of Fire for example, Rand can use the OP and Fire to "pull" heat from an object into himself to extinguish a flame. Egwene has to use Weaves of Water to do the same task. This is mentioned in Shadow Rising. (See my post here)

That's one of many examples of how the OP can manipulate the "elements" of nature to warp the reality around the channeler.
The Dark One is able to do this more literally. We see this through bubbles of evil and other ways. The DO is able to corrupt food. Corrupt reality.

 

It doesn't take much inference to think that if this intangible extra-dimensional higher being that can warp reality might be able to potentially corrupt part of the one power that can also warp reality...

 

If anything, why didn't the Forsaken try to corrupt the OP themselves? 
Maybe it's a numbers game. Maybe the 100 were tricked into thinking they had to do what they did, and that's why they were there. I dunno.

[mogi68]

4 hours ago, nsmallw said:

I've seen folks describe scenes in season two that are supposed to be in Tel'aran'rhiod but i can't recall them. Lol.  Can anyone give specific examples in season two. Thanks. 

The darkfriend social takes place in T'A'R.

 

The Amazon Prime app shows the location of where a scene takes place when you pause the video. Or at least it does on my device

[SinisterDeath]

9 minutes ago, mogi68 said:

The darkfriend social takes place in T'A'R.

 

The Amazon Prime app shows the location of where a scene takes place when you pause the video. Or at least it does on my device

See post here.

 

[Mirefox]

On 9/14/2023 at 3:32 PM, mogi68 said:

The darkfriend social takes place in T'A'R.

 

The Amazon Prime app shows the location of where a scene takes place when you pause the video. Or at least it does on my device

When a show needs a FAQ or patch notes to explain itself...

 

The way that little girl shows up at the meeting makes a little sense, I guess, if it is in TAR.

 

On 9/14/2023 at 2:52 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Lets consider the topic of causal relationship for a moment.

The One Power is inherently tied to the fabric of reality. I think we can all agree on this premise.

 

The OP Element of Fire for example, Rand can use the OP and Fire to "pull" heat from an object into himself to extinguish a flame. Egwene has to use Weaves of Water to do the same task. This is mentioned in Shadow Rising. (See my post here)

That's one of many examples of how the OP can manipulate the "elements" of nature to warp the reality around the channeler.
The Dark One is able to do this more literally. We see this through bubbles of evil and other ways. The DO is able to corrupt food. Corrupt reality.

 

It doesn't take much inference to think that if this intangible extra-dimensional higher being that can warp reality might be able to potentially corrupt part of the one power that can also warp reality...

 

If anything, why didn't the Forsaken try to corrupt the OP themselves? 
Maybe it's a numbers game. Maybe the 100 were tricked into thinking they had to do what they did, and that's why they were there. I dunno.

You're changing the argument and warping what the Aese Sedai says.  Admittedly, I need to go re-watch to pull the exact quote but she says for certainty that the OP will be corrupted if LT attempts to seal the Dark One.

 

This is all beside the point, though - my point is that there haven't been great explanations in the show and where there have been they have been inconsistent.  The writers gave themselves an excellent opportunity to explain it by having Moiraine explain what she knows to Rand, and no matter how shaky her understanding, we would have a clearer picture of how the OP works, how it is different between men and women, and how the taint came to be.  My point was that the writers haven't done so in a clear way and I would be willing to bet that most non-book readers either cannot answer how the taint came to be or would answer that it is tainted because of men channelers.  Worldbuilding is not the writers' strong suit, which is especially mind-boggling because all the groundwork was already done for them.

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

You're changing the argument and warping what the Aese Sedai says. 

No, I was merely explaining how a casual explanation could exist when you said

 

Quote

It is stated as a fact that if Lews Theron sealed away the Dark One, something that had never been done before, the result would be a tainting of the One Power, something that had never been done before and something with no direct causal relationship to the actions taken.  It was a nonsensical line in the show and was only there to Paint LT as a fool who absolutely knew the consequences of his action.

There also could exist a faction of philosophers in the AOL that absolutely believe the DO isn't a thinking entity but a force of nature. 

 

We know very few details about what actually happened during the age of legends... Let alone how much destruction and warping of reality was going on due to the Dark Ones Release.
 

  

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

Edit:  You added a M:TG analogy that does the same thing as your mosquito analogy.  If I play against a blue control deck, I know the possible consequences, whether you call them counterattacks or side effects.  But I've played thousands of Magic games.  It isn't a valid analogy.

That depends on perspective!
Are you the Fly, or the Person?
Are you embellishing what happened?
Or are you telling it cold and calculating like a doctor?

If I'm playing a Blue Deck, I might tell people I had a masterful counterstroke.
But if I'm playing against an AI Blue Deck, it's less of a counterstroke and more of a side-effect. 😁

[Mirefox]

8 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

No, I was merely explaining how a casual explanation could exist when you said

 

There also could exist a faction of philosophers in the AOL that absolutely believe the DO isn't a thinking entity but a force of nature. 

 

We know very few details about what actually happened during the age of legends... Let alone how much destruction and warping of reality was going on due to the Dark Ones Release.
 

  

That depends on perspective!
Are you the Fly, or the Person?
Are you embellishing what happened?
Or are you telling it cold and calculating like a doctor?

If I'm playing a Blue Deck, I might tell people I had a masterful counterstroke.
But if I'm playing against an AI Blue Deck, it's less of a counterstroke and more of a side-effect. 😁

I play blue and my friends just call it a string of profanities.

[SinisterDeath]

16 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I play blue and my friends just call it a string of profanities.

As they should!

 

I would say you should feel bad too, but...

FYI, I play Jank...so take that as you will. lmao

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, Gary Again said:

 If Liandrin is in the ways it would be so cool to hear what Machin Shin has to say to her. 

 

"deep down, you are good!"

 

well, more likely, "the dark one will sacrifice you and you will never achieve immortality. really, what were the odds anyway? what kind of a stupid decision it was to become darkfriend for a million-to-one odd?"

and it would actually be true. actually, machin shin spoke truth to rand too. machin shin, the wind of wisdom.

Quote

On a related note I really want to hear what Machin Shin said to Loial. Only one of your eyes are as big as a teacup, the other is the size of a saucer. Your mom is looking for you and I told her where you are. She comes.

she comes

the speaker of the stump, the bringer of marriages, loial's mother

attend you all, for she comes

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by king of nowhere

[Scarloc99]

12 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

"deep down, you are good!"

 

well, more likely, "the dark one will sacrifice you and you will never achieve immortality. really, what were the odds anyway? what kind of a stupid decision it was to become darkfriend for a million-to-one odd?"

and it would actually be true. actually, machin shin spoke truth to rand too. machin shin, the wind of wisdom.

she comes

the speaker of the stump, the bringer of marriages, loial's mother

attend you all, for she comes

 

 

I like the Darkfriends who did it thinking that in their lifetime nothing really would come of it lol. They get the power, the influence wealth whatever it is they wanted and assumed that in the 70 odd years they would be alove they wouldn't actually have to do anything that bad. There is something ironically amusing about that and I hope we get at least one of those in the series. 

 

[Storeebooq]

2 hours ago, Mirefox said:

You're changing the argument and warping what the Aese Sedai says.  Admittedly, I need to go re-watch to pull the exact quote but she says for certainty that the OP will be corrupted if LT attempts to seal the Dark One.

 

This is all beside the point, though - my point is that there haven't been great explanations in the show and where there have been they have been inconsistent.  The writers gave themselves an excellent opportunity to explain it by having Moiraine explain what she knows to Rand, and no matter how shaky her understanding, we would have a clearer picture of how the OP works, how it is different between men and women, and how the taint came to be.  My point was that the writers haven't done so in a clear way and I would be willing to bet that most non-book readers either cannot answer how the taint came to be or would answer that it is tainted because of men channelers.  Worldbuilding is not the writers' strong suit, which is especially mind-boggling because all the groundwork was already done for them.

This is all assuming they are making a mistake...but I suspect that in many regards they are deliberately being dodgy in explanations. The Worldbuilding is less blatant than it was in RJ's books and loonnnggg paragraphs. In some ways, we are sharing the same perspective as the characters, who have had 3,000 years of degradation of knowledge and loss of history. We also have some folks, especially Moiraine, who deliberately hold knowledge to themselves.

 

I get why so much more was given in the books. There is space and time for it, and likely, readers will be hooked regardless. For a the show, I think the mystery is often deliberate. Watching along side folks who have never read the books, they are very very hooked by the secrets and mystery and are picking up on the fact that there is so much more than what is shown. There is an enormous amount of detail that is shown, but not explained, and that draws people in. The Seals are a huge example. They even have me as a book reader hooked to their hidden meanings, since there's a divergence from the books. 

 

 

 

[notpropaganda73]

16 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Didn't Moiraine say in the very first episode that "The Dragon has been born again. We don't know where and to whom and we must find them." Should be clear enough with Tam's talk with Rand of souls being reborn.

yes, but she hasn't connected that to Lews Therin in that S1 cold open. I think it might be as much to do with being confused as to who those people were in that moment, not following along the subtitles etc. 

[king of nowhere]

Well, latest episode clears that forever. Moiraine referred to ltt as rand previous reincarnation

[A Memory Of Why]

Not sure if we should make this it's own thread or move it to the one from last year but now that we've got two more Forsaken confirmed we can guess how they match with the statues..

 

 

From the left:

 

Moggy - nothing to go off other than she's confirmed and isn't the other female statues

 

Semihage - not confirmed but the only other female could be Mesaana and this statue reminds me of her

 

Sammael - poor lil dude

 

Ishy - confirmed in the episode 

 

Lanfear - moon belt

 

Asmo - dudes holding a guitar / lute

 

Demondred - guessing as he's more important than the other male possibilities 

 

Graendel- confirmed, also boobs..

[king of nowhere]

by the way, I absolutely love the way ishamael introduces himself. his good-natured voice while he lists his epithets, as if there was nothing wrong or strange with them and "betrayer of hope" was just a name like any other. makes me laugh and gives me the chills at the same time.

speaking of which, they did a good job making the foresaken actually scary. every time I see one of them on screen, I'm like "ah crap". the books never gave me that reaction

[MarcusM]

8 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

Not sure if we should make this it's own thread or move it to the one from last year but now that we've got two more Forsaken confirmed we can guess how they match with the statues..

 

 

From the left:

 

Moggy - nothing to go off other than she's confirmed and isn't the other female statues

 

Semihage - not confirmed but the only other female could be Mesaana and this statue reminds me of her

 

Sammael - poor lil dude

 

Ishy - confirmed in the episode 

 

Lanfear - moon belt

 

Asmo - dudes holding a guitar / lute

 

Demondred - guessing as he's more important than the other male possibilities 

 

Graendel- confirmed, also boobs..

Maybe make this a thread of kits own. I want to discuss this too. Even made an analysis of my own on it in the Ep 5 thread, but it got completely displaced by all the arguing of the “following the lore” discussion.

[Mirefox]

11 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

by the way, I absolutely love the way ishamael introduces himself. his good-natured voice while he lists his epithets, as if there was nothing wrong or strange with them and "betrayer of hope" was just a name like any other. makes me laugh and gives me the chills at the same time.

speaking of which, they did a good job making the foresaken actually scary. every time I see one of them on screen, I'm like "ah crap". the books never gave me that reaction

Yes, calmly calling yourself the betrayer of hope is creepy.  I think the actor is doing a good job and he's certainly better unmasked than when he was flame-eyed Ishy, which I think was mishandled.  I do wish he was a little more menacing at times.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

4 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Yes, calmly calling yourself the betrayer of hope is creepy.  I think the actor is doing a good job and he's certainly better unmasked than when he was flame-eyed Ishy, which I think was mishandled.  I do wish he was a little more menacing at times.

It also fits with the books - each of the forsaken embraced their chosen name and was offended, angered  or dismissive when referred to by their original name (other than Asmodean when he offered it after being defeated by Rand - but at the time he was too despondent about being trickle shielded to care).

[Chivalry]

6 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Yes, calmly calling yourself the betrayer of hope is creepy.  I think the actor is doing a good job and he's certainly better unmasked than when he was flame-eyed Ishy, which I think was mishandled.  I do wish he was a little more menacing at times.

Yeah I'm afraid they've made him too front and center. He seems to be a terrific actor, but I suspect his regular appearances in The Real World may water down his impact.

[mogi68]

So we have titles for the rest of the episodes yet?

 

Really hoping for more Mat action. I assume that he will meet up with Rand and Moiraine in Cairhien?

[Rhaze]

2 hours ago, mogi68 said:

So we have titles for the rest of the episodes yet?

 

Really hoping for more Mat action. I assume that he will meet up with Rand and Moiraine in Cairhien?

 At this point in the books Mat wasnt doing anything really. Dragging along behind Perrin and the soldiers, very sick, and just trying to survive to get the dagger back.

[Scarloc99]

18 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Yes, calmly calling yourself the betrayer of hope is creepy.  I think the actor is doing a good job and he's certainly better unmasked than when he was flame-eyed Ishy, which I think was mishandled.  I do wish he was a little more menacing at times.

Ishy can have very very Thanos type vibes which is a good thing, possibly one of the best portrayed modern villains on screen everyone I knew could understand and sympathise with his motivations while being horrified at his methods. Ishy can and is being portrayed the same way, although I do hope that this calm exterior breaks at some point soon to show the truly insane Ishy we get from the books. 

I also wonder, will Moridin be the same actor? It would kind of explain if they are planning to kill Ishy off end season 2 to then bring a different actor back as Moridin in season 4 that they are giving him such juicy lines and content now. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Jaysen Gore]

6 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Ishy can have very very Thanos type vibes which is a good thing, possibly one of the best portrayed modern villains on screen everyone I knew could understand and sympathise with his motivations while being horrified at his methods. Ishy can and is being portrayed the same way, although I do hope that this calm exterior breaks at some point soon to show the truly insane Ishy we get from the books. 

I also wonder, will Moridin be the same actor? It would kind of explain if they are planning to kill Ishy off end season 2 to then bring a different actor back as Moridin in season 4 that they are giving him such juicy lines and content now. 

The Lanfear saa reveal makes me wonder if we get Moridin at all. Although for the final payoff (assuming they keep that), we need to have at least 1 resouling  somewhere in this series so that the finale doesn't come out of the blue

[Meskell]

Quality of writing, cgi, directing and acting has increased significantly this season, just a pity that the base was so low last season. 
 

I still feel the choice of making Moiraine the singular main character is holding the series back, as for those who aren’t book readers Rand is just some random man who can do magic like the women. Rosamund Pike was not famous enough to actually re-write an entire series for and 100% would not have drawn casual viewers in. 
 

This then leads in to whatever the hell has gone on with Lan for the past two seasons. It just feels shoehorned, unnecessary and really dragged out. If this is what they want to do with him, I feel it would’ve been better off just killing him off and having that being the shock death to book readers. 
 

There are many minor changes that whilst taken individually wouldn’t be frustrating, are becoming more frustrating, especially as I struggle to see the benefit in the change. Whereas changes like Uno being killed are fine, as he was basically just some generic soldier that was an easy reference point in the books. On a tv show literally any soldier can do the job fine. 

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, Meskell said:

Quality of writing, cgi, directing and acting has increased significantly this season, just a pity that the base was so low last season. 
 

I still feel the choice of making Moiraine the singular main character is holding the series back, as for those who aren’t book readers Rand is just some random man who can do magic like the women. Rosamund Pike was not famous enough to actually re-write an entire series for and 100% would not have drawn casual viewers in. 
 

This then leads in to whatever the hell has gone on with Lan for the past two seasons. It just feels shoehorned, unnecessary and really dragged out. If this is what they want to do with him, I feel it would’ve been better off just killing him off and having that being the shock death to book readers. 
 

There are many minor changes that whilst taken individually wouldn’t be frustrating, are becoming more frustrating, especially as I struggle to see the benefit in the change. Whereas changes like Uno being killed are fine, as he was basically just some generic soldier that was an easy reference point in the books. On a tv show literally any soldier can do the job fine. 

Moiraine has not been the singular main character in season 2, she has not had more screen time, or a bigger storyline then Perrin, Rand, or the girls, and in handing over to Rand at the end of episode 5 (it truly is your choice), the writers have very cleverly completed there process of moving her sideways and started putting Rand front and centre of the story.