WoT Season 2 - I WATCHED ALL THE EPISODES TOPIC

[Jaysen Gore]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

(1) it set up the confrontation with Siuan, leading Siuan to believe that Moiraine was lying to her (and therefore possibly a darkfriend?) thus giving her the impetus to use the oath to compel Moiraine's obedience. Which leaves us with the interesting question (at least to some) of whether they can ever repair the relationship.

 

(2) it set up the reason why Siuan would question her decision and reverse course on the Dragon question. Moiraine's shield prevented her from training Rand. (And yes, I know she can't train him in how to use the power, but her ability to use the power would allow her to provoke a response using the power which is better than nothing in terms of training.) 

 

(3) it gave a clever mechanism by which to explain: (a) the difference between being shielded and being stilled; (b) the ability to see male weaves vs. female weaves [thus undermining the tired S1 talking point about degendering the OP]; (c) the concept of 'tying off' a weave which will come in handy later.

To add to this: 

 

(4) It gave Moiraine the opportunity to demonstrate that she is a true soldier of the Light, with or without the One Power. Continuing to fight for Rand, not willing to self-delete, and fighting to her last breath to defeat the Shadow. It is the visible counter to "everything good about you came out of a bottle"

 

(5) It taught Moiraine that she couldn't and didn't need to stand on her own, with Lan defending her, and Alannah and Verin willing to help. It is not about one person carrying the load, but everyone together. Foreshadowing?

[Scarloc99]

8 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Now that we’ve wrapped up the Moiraine shielding question, hat did that whole storyline accomplish that couldn’t have been done with her retaining her powers?

It stopped her going off and being able to do stuff, it kept her out of Rands story in a logical fasion, it allowed her to face off a foresaken with no powers, and it premptied when Siuan loses her powers and what she has to deal with. Mainly it meant that Moiraine could have a role in season 2 when in the books she is not in other then a few pages at the start and then the very very end. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

What did lanfear actually do to siuan? I can’t discern exactly in what way she injured her. She’s clearly incapacitated.
 

Another thought I had was that if siuan had suspicions that moiraine was a Darkfriend because she “lied” about being stilled, then that would make any oaths she had taken previously null. So siuan must have realized that if this was true then she should have been unable to exploit the oath rod scenario where moiraine vows to obey her and therefore force her close the way gate. I wonder if she realized how far she had erred in even suspecting such a thing and this is why the erosion of trust on her end was irreversible and how moiraine was able to walk away in that moment. 

[Ralph]

7 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

What did lanfear actually do to siuan? I can’t discern exactly in what way she injured her. She’s clearly incapacitated.
 

Another thought I had was that if siuan had suspicions that moiraine was a Darkfriend because she “lied” about being stilled, then that would make any oaths she had taken previously null. So siuan must have realized that if this was true then she should have been unable to exploit the oath rod scenario where moiraine vows to obey her and therefore force her close the way gate. I wonder if she realized how far she had erred in even suspecting such a thing and this is why the erosion of trust on her end was irreversible and how moiraine was able to walk away in that moment. 

interesting, but not sure that is true. do we know how the dark friend oaths revoke the three oaths? do they not remove them with the oath rod or something? 

 

and she could have been a dark friend before that oath anyway

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

11 minutes ago, Ralph said:

interesting, but not sure that is true. do we know how the dark friend oaths revoke the three oaths? do they not remove them with the oath rod or something? 

 

and she could have been a dark friend before that oath anyway

Good point. Thanks for your insights. That’s kind of my confusion though. I got the sense that swearing to the dark (however that’s done, but it’s never to my knowledge been implied that the dark does this with an Oath rod) meant forsaking and dissolving all other oaths. This was something I deduced from the books, however. I could be wrong and certainly doesn’t mean it applies to the show. Either way I feel like mo and su have been set up as ride or die so it’s hard for me to understand the possibility that su could have lost trust in mo. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Lightfriendsocialmistress

[Scarloc99]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:30 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

What did lanfear actually do to siuan? I can’t discern exactly in what way she injured her. She’s clearly incapacitated.
 

Another thought I had was that if siuan had suspicions that moiraine was a Darkfriend because she “lied” about being stilled, then that would make any oaths she had taken previously null. So siuan must have realized that if this was true then she should have been unable to exploit the oath rod scenario where moiraine vows to obey her and therefore force her close the way gate. I wonder if she realized how far she had erred in even suspecting such a thing and this is why the erosion of trust on her end was irreversible and how moiraine was able to walk away in that moment. 

In the books Aes Sedai had no idea Black Ajah where no longer under the 3 oaths until about book 10 or 11 I think, and in the TV show there is no real indication that back can lie, other then Liandrin (and only the wonder 3 know that right now). 

 

On 10/3/2023 at 5:38 AM, Ralph said:

interesting, but not sure that is true. do we know how the dark friend oaths revoke the three oaths? do they not remove them with the oath rod or something? 

 

and she could have been a dark friend before that oath anyway

Spoilers form the book. 

 

Spoiler

In the book black ajah first have the 3 oaths removed from them with the oath rod, they then swear 3 new oaths on the oath rod to replace them. 

We have not seen this mechanic in the show yet but I imagine it will be shown to be the same. 

 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

40 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Spoilers form the book. 

 

  Hide contents

In the book black ajah first have the 3 oaths removed from them with the oath rod, they then swear 3 new oaths on the oath rod to replace them. 

We have not seen this mechanic in the show yet but I imagine it will be shown to be the same. 

 

This is how the in the book WT AS removes the oaths, but I don’t recall seeing how the dark removes oaths in order to facilitate Darkfriends taking their new oaths. Maybe it’s done with an oath rod, but I got the sense the Dark doesn’t need an oath rod per se to accomplish this 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 hour ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

This is how the in the book WT AS removes the oaths, but I don’t recall seeing how the dark removes oaths in order to facilitate Darkfriends taking their new oaths. Maybe it’s done with an oath rod, but I got the sense the Dark doesn’t need an oath rod per se to accomplish this 

The Black Ajah could have their own binder or other ter'angreal, but as the effect would the same as the normal Oath Rod, and they would have access to said Oath Rod, I don't see that any assumed other ter'angreal is necessary. Though nor would it be necessary to exclude such a thing.

[Mirefox]

On 10/2/2023 at 10:04 PM, Elder_Haman said:

(1) it set up the confrontation with Siuan, leading Siuan to believe that Moiraine was lying to her (and therefore possibly a darkfriend?) thus giving her the impetus to use the oath to compel Moiraine's obedience. Which leaves us with the interesting question (at least to some) of whether they can ever repair the relationship.

 

(2) it set up the reason why Siuan would question her decision and reverse course on the Dragon question. Moiraine's shield prevented her from training Rand. (And yes, I know she can't train him in how to use the power, but her ability to use the power would allow her to provoke a response using the power which is better than nothing in terms of training.) 

 

(3) it gave a clever mechanism by which to explain: (a) the difference between being shielded and being stilled; (b) the ability to see male weaves vs. female weaves [thus undermining the tired S1 talking point about degendering the OP]; (c) the concept of 'tying off' a weave which will come in handy later.

 

Whether you or anyone else likes the changes or not, I think we can all agree that the Moiraine stilled/shielded sub-plot and the and all the connected storyline with her relationship and parting with Lan was probably one of the biggest departures we've seen from the books.  I would think, then, that the change should have a greater purpose than just this.  To respond directly to your points:

 

-The Dragon has been reborn.  I think there are many reasons Moiraine and Siuan (who is now in a vastly different position than she was 20 years ago) could disagree on what to do with Rand.  This doesn't require Moiraine's stilling/shielding.  

 

-Considering that most of the season was spend with a shielded Moiraine trying to find Rand and then trying to guide him, I don't see how that would have been any different had she had use of the Power.

 

-We don't need a clever mechanism to explain shielding and stilling because we already had Logain shielded and then gentled.  We also had the perfect and most organic conversation for the ability to see weaves available and the writers dropped the ball.  When Rand asked Moiraine to teach him, she could have dropped a single sentence there that would have clearly explained it all without an entire episode-long sub-plot.  I complain about the writing on this show and that single conversation is probably the biggest example of the writers dropping the ball.  Much could have been explained via brief and easy to understand exposition there.  I understand the show-don't-tell philosophy but there are also times where a single sentence can clarify much.  I know we've now been told that there are male and female weaves, but to my dying day I will be 100% convinced that the conversation with Moiraine was as bad as it was because they really didn't want to bring up a gendered power and only did so as late as they did for a plot point.

 

Other people have said other things like it allowed for character growth or gave her something to do but I would argue that had she kept her powers and not destroyed her relationship for Rand we still could have had compelling plot with her.  She discovered the person of her life's work and immediately lost him; there was plenty for her to do and much purpose behind what she needed to do, even with the power.

 

It al circles back to the writers thinking they are better writers than RJ, and they are not.  The whole Moiraine story was completely made up and spread through 8 episodes for little reason that I can see other than boosting the actress's screen time and acting range.

 

We are all readers here; we are all creative here.  I fail to believe that if we couldn't come up with genuine and organic ways to introduce all the themes mentioned in response to me in a way that wasn't so drastically divergent from the source material.

 

----------------------------

 

I do have a question that came up when I considered @Elder_Haman's response to me.  Because it involves the Three Oaths I'd probably have to go back and look at the wording of Moiraine's oath.  Apologies if this has been asked, sometimes I miss things.

 

Last season Siuan made Moiraine swear on the oath rod to obey her, correct?  I don't remember the wording of that oath.

 

But at the end of the latest episode, Siuan commands Moiraine not to go.  Moiraine defies her.  Was this not a breaking of an Oath sworn on the rod?  Shouldn't Moiraine have become apoplectic or something?

 

I know it could have been something subtle with the wording so if anyone can correct me on this that would be helpful for my understanding.

[Rhaze]

53 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I do have a question that came up when I considered @Elder_Haman's response to me.  Because it involves the Three Oaths I'd probably have to go back and look at the wording of Moiraine's oath.  Apologies if this has been asked, sometimes I miss things.

 

Last season Siuan made Moiraine swear on the oath rod to obey her, correct?  I don't remember the wording of that oath.

 

But at the end of the latest episode, Siuan commands Moiraine not to go.  Moiraine defies her.  Was this not a breaking of an Oath sworn on the rod?  Shouldn't Moiraine have become apoplectic or something?

 

I know it could have been something subtle with the wording so if anyone can correct me on this that would be helpful for my understanding.

 It appears to me they used some crappy writing to get around by making Siuan give her a formal command by citing "I am the Amyrlin and you have sworn oaths to obey me so you must obey me and I command you as the Amyrlin seat to do as I have commanded you" and abunch of other malarkey. In theory, the moment Siuan said "close the waygate" Moiraine would have had to close the waygate and not say no, and dont make me and blah blah blah...

[Elgee]

On 10/1/2023 at 7:59 AM, DaddyFinn said:

Lan said in one episode that it takes 8 Aes Sedai to gentle/still a channeler. I guess 8 is the lucky number instead of 13 and there will be 8 Forsaken

 

Yeah apparently Lan now knows more about Channeling than any Aes Sedai.

 

[Elder_Haman]

On 10/3/2023 at 11:03 AM, Rhaze said:

 It appears to me they used some crappy writing to get around by making Siuan give her a formal command by citing "I am the Amyrlin and you have sworn oaths to obey me so you must obey me and I command you as the Amyrlin seat to do as I have commanded you" and abunch of other malarkey. In theory, the moment Siuan said "close the waygate" Moiraine would have had to close the waygate and not say no, and dont make me and blah blah blah...

It's not "malarkey". Siuan formally invoked the oath. It's not "crappy writing" to require that. It gives it gravity. This isn't a suggestion. It isn't a strong preference. It isn't a subject of debate. It's an order and the order created the compulsion to obey.

 

On 10/3/2023 at 10:05 AM, Mirefox said:

We are all readers here; we are all creative here.  I fail to believe that if we couldn't come up with genuine and organic ways to introduce all the themes mentioned in response to me in a way that wasn't so drastically divergent from the source material.

Perhaps we could have. That doesn't mean that the changes were inherently bad. They served not one but several purposes which have been laid out here. 

[SinisterDeath]

On 10/1/2023 at 12:59 AM, DaddyFinn said:

Lan said in one episode that it takes 8 Aes Sedai to gentle/still a channeler. I guess 8 is the lucky number instead of 13 and there will be 8 Forsaken

42 minutes ago, Elgee said:

 

Yeah apparently Lan now knows more about Channeling than any Aes Sedai.

 

Moved both of your posts to this topic since Episode 5 was NOT the correct topic for Lan knowing about Moiraine being shielded.

 

[Rhaze]

1 hour ago, Elgee said:

 

Yeah apparently Lan now knows more about Channeling than any Aes Sedai.

 

 Well, at least all the Browns show up for his classes. Blues chose not to and now they are all ignorant.

[Guire]

38 minutes ago, Rhaze said:

 Well, at least all the Browns show up for his classes. Blues chose not to and now they are all ignorant.

The Greens and Blues are looking for hot warders.  The Browns like hot professors. Lan is no longer a clint eastwood character.  He is Indiana Jones.

[EmreY]

On the subject of oaths, remember He Who Breaks All Oaths, Shatters All Ties, a point not that well made in the books.

[Guire]

2 hours ago, EmreY said:

On the subject of oaths, remember He Who Breaks All Oaths, Shatters All Ties, a point not that well made in the books.

Thats one area show may actually do a good job potraying.  I feel like all the main characters will be weeping for their salvation. 

[Scarloc99]

20 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

This is how the in the book WT AS removes the oaths, but I don’t recall seeing how the dark removes oaths in order to facilitate Darkfriends taking their new oaths. Maybe it’s done with an oath rod, but I got the sense the Dark doesn’t need an oath rod per se to accomplish this 

The black Ajah confirmed to the tower AS this is how it was done, it is also confirmed in all the companion background info that this is the case. Verin also confirmed it by the fact she was looking for the oath rod to remove the Black oaths from her. 

[Guire]

20 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

It's not "malarkey". Siuan formally invoked the oath. It's not "crappy writing" to require that. It gives it gravity. This isn't a suggestion. It isn't a strong preference. It isn't a subject of debate. It's an order and the order created the compulsion to obey.

I wonder if this mechanic will be like Aes Seadai having to personally feel danger or if they think they are lying its impossible. So Siuan just saying something doesn't trigger oath until it is invoked.  Clunky but may give writers room to write scenes without being hamstrung by oath. Wonder how this will work if Siuan stilled? Or possibly a later scene where oath is revoked to restore Siuan and Moraine trust.

[Elgee]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:50 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Moved both of your posts to this topic since Episode 5 was NOT the correct topic for Lan knowing about Moiraine being shielded.

 

Thank you.

But I didn't mention that, so didn't think it was a spoiler.

[SinisterDeath]

15 minutes ago, Elgee said:

 

Thank you.

But I didn't mention that, so didn't think it was a spoiler.

Lan "knowing more about channeling" was something that didn't happen until episode 7.

[Elder_Haman]

5 hours ago, Guire said:

I wonder if this mechanic will be like Aes Seadai having to personally feel danger or if they think they are lying its impossible. So Siuan just saying something doesn't trigger oath until it is invoked.  Clunky but may give writers room to write scenes without being hamstrung by oath. Wonder how this will work if Siuan stilled? Or possibly a later scene where oath is revoked to restore Siuan and Moraine trust.

I think there is some wobbliness in the concept of obedience. If ask my son to take the trash out and he plays video games for an hour before doing it, is he obeying? What if he says, "I'm in the middle of this right now, dad. Can I do it in 20 minutes?" If I want him to do it immediately, I have to invoke obedience by saying, "stop what you are doing and go take the trash out now," or something similar.

 

I took the interaction between Mo and Siuan to be that type of exchange. Moiraine wanting to convince Siuan that she was doing the right thing and Siuan ultimately having to say, "No. I really mean it." 

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think there is some wobbliness in the concept of obedience. If ask my son to take the trash out and he plays video games for an hour before doing it, is he obeying? What if he says, "I'm in the middle of this right now, dad. Can I do it in 20 minutes?" If I want him to do it immediately, I have to invoke obedience by saying, "stop what you are doing and go take the trash out now," or something similar.

 

I took the interaction between Mo and Siuan to be that type of exchange. Moiraine wanting to convince Siuan that she was doing the right thing and Siuan ultimately having to say, "No. I really mean it." 

yeah, and I think they need to be careful with not representing casual suggestions as orders to be obeyed.  I've seen that kind of absolute authority as a result of magic compliance before, and so I'm fine with them adding a level of formal triggering to this process to avoid casual declarative directions triggering compulsed compliance.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

yeah, and I think they need to be careful with not representing casual suggestions as orders to be obeyed.  I've seen that kind of absolute authority as a result of magic compliance before, and so I'm fine with them adding a level of formal triggering to this process to avoid casual declarative directions triggering compulsed compliance.

Yes! Because that's the mechanic that allows exploration of the difference between an holding to an oath on the one hand and compulsion on the other.

[Finnssss22]

I was having a debate the other day with yet another person trying to project later book Mat onto early book Mat and I came to an interesting realisation, at least to me anyway.

 

Now let me just state right off the bat that this is premised with the assumption (and hope we all have) Mat will indeed be blowing what he needs to blow tomorrow night.

 

Anyway, so despite losing Barney after ep6 last season and having to completely switch gears, they have actually managed, by putting Mat even further down, to set up his redemption to be an even greater thing. Climbing out from an even greater hole and have even more value/impact than in the books.

A true thorn in the Darkone's foot, spit in sightblinder's eye moment.

 

If they pull it off tomorrow, there will need to be some props going out IMO