WoT Season 2 Episode 1: A Taste of Solitude

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I’m going way off topic here to get back on topic and simply want to comment on my thoughts about S2E1.  I’m still on board with the show, I don’t take the changes personally. Having said that, plus the fact that I’ve only watched the first episode, here is my main observations. Did I miss something or did loial and co go from real dead in the last episode to overtly quite not dead in this episode with no courtesy explanation? If it’s addressed in later episodes, then please disregard my confusion. Also it’s hard to reconcile my next question within the many opinions based on the premise that moiraine is stilled. However, imo, unless I missed the mark I thought we were seeing her attempt to access the OP on more than one occasion. Did I misinterpret? I thought she kept trying to access the OP which doesn’t make sense if someone knows they’ve been stilled. 

[DojoToad]

I went in hopeful and came out deflated.  CGI and overall visuals were improved over S1.  I understand the need for changes in the adaptation and even like some.  But too many I don't like, understand, or agree with.  The show is definitely not for me.

• Nynaeve training with the warders for 5 months - shouldn't she be working on her block?
• Nynaeve open rudeness to sisters with no punishment
• Lan - I have no problem with Daniel's acting or fitness (beast!), but he looks like he's had his sword for two days not his entire life
• Moiraine - a 'broken' Aes Sedai plays cat-and-mouse with a Fade before killing it with a dagger
• Domon - silly, but the moustache was an unnecessary change.  Very small, but they add up
• Fade fight - though two have already been killed, whenever the remaining Fades have an advantage they pose and loom rather than finishing the kill

I hope those that are enjoying the show continue to do so.  It is the books for me.  Wish I could love both...

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

20 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I went in hopeful and came out deflated.  CGI and overall visuals were improved over S1.  I understand the need for changes in the adaptation and even like some.  But too many I don't like, understand, or agree with.  The show is definitely not for me.

• Nynaeve training with the warders for 5 months - shouldn't she be working on her block?
• Nynaeve open rudeness to sisters with no punishment
• Lan - I have no problem with Daniel's acting or fitness (beast!), but he looks like he's had his sword for two days not his entire life
• Moiraine - a 'broken' Aes Sedai plays cat-and-mouse with a Fade before killing it with a dagger
• Domon - silly, but the moustache was an unnecessary change.  Very small, but they add up
• Fade fight - though two have already been killed, whenever the remaining Fades have an advantage they pose and loom rather than finishing the kill

I hope those that are enjoying the show continue to do so.  It is the books for me.  Wish I could love both...

Thanks for sharing your experience regarding season two. I was hoping you would. 

[forte12]

19 hours ago, Mirefox said:

The season seems better than season 1 but a nicer dumpster fire is still flaming garbage.  This is clearly not a work of love; if you love something you don’t fundamentally change it.  It is a work of hubris.  If that works for you, so be it, but this is a complete bastardization of the source material, or maybe just an attempt to hijak an IP in order to make a show with Rafe’s own thought.s.

 

Question: Did I miss something?  How are Loial and Uno walking around with no problems at all?  Forget for a minute that the ruby dagger should have been instant, agonizing death, Loial seems to a shrugged off a bog standard mortal wound fairly quickly and easily.

 

Elias looks nothing like I imagined him, but that’s ok.  I also think this is one of those instances where condensing some material for the screen works.  I don’t mind him in replacement of Hurin.  What I do mind, though, is the writers taking the most stupid and unnecessary element of the first season - Perrin’s wife - and beating that horse ad nauseum.  Give him another motivation, please.

 

I think the fact that Bayle has a mustache is indicative of so many of my issues with this show.  It is a tiny thing?  Sure.  But how many times throughout the course of the books did they mention his bare upper lip?  Why not give him that look for the show?  This is, again, indicative that either someone doesn’t really care about the source material or that someone thinks they can craft a better story with better characters than Jordan.

 

Did you know, by the way, that wanders can be bisexual?  Rafe doesn’t care too much about crafting a consistent narrative around things like the One Power but he is certainly going to make sure you’re clear on Aes Sendai sexual preferences.  We were reminded repeatedly, first with Egwene walking in on Alanna with her warders, much like that scene in the book, then with Nyneve training with the warders and having a conversation about love, much like that scene in the book, and then Alanna having a talk with Egwene about how to have a threesome, much like that scene in the book….

 

And while I’m on that topic, the warder saying “you always make me feel like the third wheel” was the whiniest, most passive beta male delivery of a line I’ve ever heard, so much so that it was hilarious.

 

So Moiraine is stilled.  That makes total sense.  Don’t worry, though, she can still kill a Fade.  Never mind that she’s about 5’ tall and 100lbs with little to no recent martial training and a recent loss of an ability she relied on for everything, she’s been carrying water so she can easily take out a creature that even warders don’t want to fight with just a dagger…

 

Mat got about 5 seconds in the show but the new actor seems a decent replacement.  If I had closed my eyes and listened to his speech pattern I might have thought it was the same actor.

 

For a show that is supposedly cutting back on the number of episodes while simultaneously squeezing more books into each season, not much happened in this episode.

 

Can we just skip to the part where “Ten Times Stronger” Nynaeve saves the planet?

 

Edit:  Good grief does autocorrect butcher anything I try to write about this series.  Sorry if you slogged through all that…

You seem to have some

masculinity issues to work out my friend.  You really sent this thread off the rails with this post.

 

Clearly the delivery of the line worked because it elicited a response, not only that, it told the story of their relationship in about 3 seconds. You may think the character is pathetic but that’s your own bullshit seeping through and not the fault of the actor. Whatever bullshit you feel about masculinity and the way men / warders are supposed to act is your own, don’t burden us with them. It’s trite at this point.

 

also, I thought it was fairly clear Nyneave hadn’t been exclusivly sword training for 5 months. This felt more like a group of friends blowing off steam and trying to get the one friend to relax so she could hear some much needed advice. Sometimes when you are having an problem the best solution is to drop it and come back to it.

 

Lan’s fighting was fine. The point is that he was off his game due to the lack of bond. If you can’t understand that, maybe take a HS English class again?

 

the episode was far too slow, but the show needed a reset with it’s characters. The problem was in direction. All the scenes had the same

pace and seriousness- they were also shot similarly. This plagued episode 2 as well. Seems like Napper is a bit indulgent/ unimaginative. 

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

4 hours ago, Mailman said:

What about the fact we got a big exposition dump about severing to a group of people that would be aware of the consequences of severing. 

Why would Moiraine and Lan know about the consequences of severing? Moiraine has been on the hunt for the Dragon, how much experience has she had with women who have been severed? Would Lan have any idea?

 

I didn't find those scenes to be bad at all. I think that Moiraine is going to be going on Siuan's journey in place of being held by the Finn. That's actually a pretty smart choice. It keeps your A-list actress around, gives her a really good, emotional arc to play with while at the same time eliminating a fun, but ultimately unnecessary plotline.

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I went in hopeful and came out deflated.  CGI and overall visuals were improved over S1.  I understand the need for changes in the adaptation and even like some.  But too many I don't like, understand, or agree with.  The show is definitely not for me.

• Nynaeve training with the warders for 5 months - shouldn't she be working on her block?
• Nynaeve open rudeness to sisters with no punishment

I am not arguing with your general post, only those two details:

- the way I saw it, nynaeve wasn't "training with the warders" for 5 months. she was spending her free time with friends. as for working on her block, she was acting pretty much like in the books on that topic

- nynaeve wasn't openly rude to any sister, but to alanna specifically. alanna has shown many times to be a very friendly and easygoing aes sedai. one with whom you can take more confidence than with others. also, nynaeve saved her life.

talking like that to any other sister would have earned nynaeve a trip to the mistress of novices, but I feel like, with alanna, she could get away with it.

notice how she doesn't go that far with liandrin

Edited September 2, 2023 by king of nowhere

[Agitel]

If I'm going to bring up a criticism of Lan, he has "Worf-syndrome" from Star Trek. You tell everyone he's an amazing warrior, so when he gets beat up you know things are bad. Only... you just keep seeing Worf get beat up over and over again.

 

Now, to take the opposite view, I feel like this particular instance was better done than last season. There were four or five Fades in the dark with no light? Book Lan is a bit of a comic book superhero, in my view, and it would be nice to see him have the opportunity to just quickly dispatch enemies in seemingly insane odds, but I do think it was understandable that he took injuries in this fight.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Agitel

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

If I'm going to bring up a criticism of Lan, he has "Worf-syndrome" from Star Trek.

Perfect analogy!

[Skipp]

43 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Why would Moiraine and Lan know about the consequences of severing? Moiraine has been on the hunt for the Dragon, how much experience has she had with women who have been severed? Would Lan have any idea?

 

I didn't find those scenes to be bad at all. I think that Moiraine is going to be going on Siuan's journey in place of being held by the Finn. That's actually a pretty smart choice. It keeps your A-list actress around, gives her a really good, emotional arc to play with while at the same time eliminating a fun, but ultimately unnecessary plotline.

To add to this we know the White Tower and Aes Sedai in general avoid talking about the effects of Severing.  The push away sisters who have been burnout and the such.  So it is quite possible that they don't fully understand the effects and need a bit of a refresher from a sister who isn't offended by the topic.

[Samt]

8 hours ago, Requiem said:

 

I find you and your opinions tiresome, your politics objectionable, regressive and poorly thought out.

 

Anyway...

 

I really enjoyed this episode, time will tell on the rest of the season, but I'm already more confident than I was at season 1.

Thanks. I’m asking for people to not pretend that this isn’t a conscious attempt to inject politics into the show and you have made that abundantly clear.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Samt

[DigificWriter]

5 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

did loial and co go from real dead in the last episode to overtly quite not dead in this episode with no courtesy explanation?

 

They weren't dead, but the show did skip over their being found and healed.

[DojoToad]

34 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I am not arguing with your general post, only those two details:

- the way I saw it, nynaeve wasn't "training with the warders" for 5 months. she was spending her free time with friends. as for working on her block, she was acting pretty much like in the books on that topic

 

And the White Tower was content to let her have all this free time instead of battering down her block.  They go on and on about how few girls come to the tower and the lack of power of those that do come.  Yet - let's let her play with the warders.  I don't buy it.

 

34 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

- nynaeve wasn't openly rude to any sister, but to alanna specifically. alanna has shown many times to be a very friendly and easygoing aes sedai. one with whom you can take more confidence than with others. also, nynaeve saved her life.

talking like that to any other sister would have earned nynaeve a trip to the mistress of novices, but I feel like, with alanna, she could get away with it.

notice how she doesn't go that far with liandrin

She didn't go as far with Liandrin, but she was still rude: "What are you doing here?" And without the Aes Sedai honorific.  If she is rude with these two, she is rude with others (likely).  No trips to Sheriam.

[king of nowhere]

17 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

And the White Tower was content to let her have all this free time instead of battering down her block.  They go on and on about how few girls come to the tower and the lack of power of those that do come.  Yet - let's let her play with the warders.  I don't buy it.

 

She didn't go as far with Liandrin, but she was still rude: "What are you doing here?" And without the Aes Sedai honorific.  If she is rude with these two, she is rude with others (likely).  No trips to Sheriam.

yes, the white tower is clearly a lot less strict with discipline than they were in the books. it's unclear how much less strict they are exactly, my argument is probably not so much that nynaeve can talk to any aes sedai like she did to alanna.

the three months of being strapped every morning to elayne for having servants carry her stuff feels out of place in that context.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Perfect analogy!

It works.

But I also should mention Worf from Picard season 3.

[Elder_Haman]

12 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Worf from Picard season 3.

Have not watched it.

[Agitel]

44 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

It works.

But I also should mention Worf from Picard season 3.

 

lol

 

I have not watched it yet. I gave up on Picard mid-way through season one... But people seem to like S3.

[DaddyFinn]

Sure looks like Moiraine is shielded

 

[swollymammoth]

4 hours ago, forte12 said:

You may think the character is pathetic but that’s your own bullshit seeping through and not the fault of the actor. Whatever bullshit you feel about masculinity and the way men / warders are supposed to act is your own, don’t burden us with them. It’s trite at this point.

I think the real question is this: Do you want the warders to be portrayed accurately to the books or are you okay with Rafe shoving his politics down our throats so long as you agree with them? Because, whether you like it or not, the Warders in the books are not a vision of healthy masculinity. They're not supposed to be. Wheel of Time is not a prescriptive series; it's descriptive. The warders are meant to act like hyper competent, hyper masculine men who have seen some s***. It's very likely that their attitude was based off of officers/soldiers that RJ served with in Vietnam. The fact is that most warders in the books are presented as emotionally distant because, like it or not, that's what men in their position normally end up being. Again, The Wheel of Time is descriptive, not prescriptive. It's not supposed to tell us the right way to be a man, it's just showing a very specific type of man. And that type of man, like it or not/healthy behavior or not, just doesn't tend to be very connected to his emotions. 

 

So, what we have here is another example of Rafe projecting his politics onto the story. He looked at the warders and instead of seeing people, he saw toxic masculinity and took its upon himself to bowlderize it for the good of society. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by swollymammoth

[DigificWriter]

9 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Sure looks like Moiraine is shielded

 

 

Not to everyone.

 

Because the writers have very clearly approached Moiraine's Season 2 story as if she's been Stilled, the visuals used don't really matter right now.

 

If we later learn that the writers treating Moiraine's situation as a Stilling was an intentional misdirection, then we can go back and analyze the visuals, but until/unless that happens, comparing the visual depiction of Liandrin shielding Nynaeve to what the "Dark One" did to Moiraine Kind of misses the point of the narrative being presented.

Edited September 2, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Agitel]

4 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Not to everyone.

 

Because the writers approached Moiraine's Season 2 story as of she's been Stilled, the visuals used don't really matter right now.

 

If we later learn that the writers treating Moiraine's situation as a Stilling was an intentional misdirection, then we can go back and analyze the visuals, but for now, it doesn't matter.

 

I disagree with this. Your comment makes sense in the situation where there's no foreshadowing or reasons to assume the more complicated answer. I've said what you just wrote to others on those types of plot points.

 

That she is only shielded but it's written that she believes she's stilled seems to many the most obvious arc, and the visual choices support that. So yes, if we're talking about actual foreshadowing and speculating on character arcs, it certainly is relevant.

[DigificWriter]

The writers' intent here isn't foreshadowing, though.

 

It might end up being misdirection, but as of now, the writers' clear intent is to communicate that what happened to Moiraine was a Stilling and not a shielding, regardless of what the VFX for it looked like.

[Agitel]

All I'm getting about writer's intent is what she believes to be the case and an intent at misdirection which people in the know can figure out based on clues and knowledge of the show. People aren't just speculating on things that aren't there.

[Agitel]

This deviates a little from how things work in book canon, but I anticipate that

Spoiler

Rand will kill (or somehow defeat if they're avoiding bringing in new actors for the Forsaken) Ishy during this season (instead of having another confrontation later) and when that happens Moiraine will get her power back as the shield is no longer maintained. And Moiraine will have had a whole arc where she realizes she's more than just her channeling ability.

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Agitel

[forte12]

1 hour ago, swollymammoth said:

I think the real question is this: Do you want the warders to be portrayed accurately to the books or are you okay with Rafe shoving his politics down our throats so long as you agree with them? Because, whether you like it or not, the Warders in the books are not a vision of healthy masculinity. They're not supposed to be. Wheel of Time is not a prescriptive series; it's descriptive. The warders are meant to act like hyper competent, hyper masculine men who have seen some s***. It's very likely that their attitude was based off of officers/soldiers that RJ served with in Vietnam. The fact is that most warders in the books are presented as emotionally distant because, like it or not, that's what men in their position normally end up being. Again, The Wheel of Time is descriptive, not prescriptive. It's not supposed to tell us the right way to be a man, it's just showing a very specific type of man. And that type of man, like it or not/healthy behavior or not, just doesn't tend to be very connected to his emotions. 

 

So, what we have here is another example of Rafe projecting his politics onto the story. He looked at the warders and instead of seeing people, he saw toxic masculinity and took its upon himself to bowlderize it for the good of society. 

Counterpoint to that is- have you ever actually spent time with soldiers? We don’t actually spend that much time with warders

in the books. They get a general wash of “manly” or “masculine” which is what we give soldiers in real life, but if you take them individually? They are all vastly different. Some stoic, some quiet, emotional, funny, loud, angry, sensitive. They are people after all. What one outwardly portrays in a formal setting would be quite different among friends- which is what this scene is. Also, all soldiers that I know can admit that they’ve fallen in love with someone. That’s not a particularly nuanced emotional statement.

 

Knowing and growing up in the military ( never having served myself, but being an air force brat) I always found Jordan’s blanket wash of these characters to be uninteresting, even if he did serve. Considering he never went into much detail about their indivual personality, there’s nothing to say that one can’t be sensitive or caring. The only important part the character that must be captured  is that they can protect their aes sedei. It would be uninteresting to have 6 characters basically having the same personality on a TV series. Characters who aren’t connected or at least aware of their emotions don’t make for good TV. 

it actually feels more like you are inserting your political beliefs and ideas of what men should be into this rather than the other way around.

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by forte12

[DigificWriter]

7 minutes ago, Agitel said:

All I'm getting about writer's intent is what she believes to be the case and an intent at misdirection which people in the know can figure out based on clues and knowledge of the show. People aren't just speculating on things that aren't there.

 

I think that automatically assuming misdirection is a mistake based on what we're being shown.

 

Could misdirection be in play? Yes.

 

Is it equally possible that there's no misdirection involved and she really is Stilled? Yes.

 

Which is why I say that the VFX don't matter at this point.