WoT Season 2 Episode 1: A Taste of Solitude

[DaddyFinn]

21 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Did you entirely miss the point of that scene? The trollocs are undeniably evil. Ishamael is convincing the little girl to ignore what she intuitively knows to be true about the nature of evil.

Which is, in and of itself, evil. 

We as watchers shouldn't believe a word the evil people say. Especially when those words are meant to hurt, confuse, manipulate etc. our good guys. Ishamael has been great so far

[nsmallw]

44 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Did you entirely miss the point of that scene? The trollocs are undeniably evil. Ishamael is convincing the little girl to ignore what she intuitively knows to be true about the nature of evil.

Which is, in and of itself, evil. 

I really enjoy your take on the show, EH.   Are you going to give your review of season two  episodes?

[Vosha]

I really don't understand the gripes about the lesson in the kitchen.  It seemed pretty obvious to me that it was more about a sister working on Nynaeve's block than it was about teaching the novices as a whole. 

[Mirefox]

The season seems better than season 1 but a nicer dumpster fire is still flaming garbage.  This is clearly not a work of love; if you love something you don’t fundamentally change it.  It is a work of hubris.  If that works for you, so be it, but this is a complete bastardization of the source material, or maybe just an attempt to hijak an IP in order to make a show with Rafe’s own thought.s.

 

Question: Did I miss something?  How are Loial and Uno walking around with no problems at all?  Forget for a minute that the ruby dagger should have been instant, agonizing death, Loial seems to a shrugged off a bog standard mortal wound fairly quickly and easily.

 

Elias looks nothing like I imagined him, but that’s ok.  I also think this is one of those instances where condensing some material for the screen works.  I don’t mind him in replacement of Hurin.  What I do mind, though, is the writers taking the most stupid and unnecessary element of the first season - Perrin’s wife - and beating that horse ad nauseum.  Give him another motivation, please.

 

I think the fact that Bayle has a mustache is indicative of so many of my issues with this show.  It is a tiny thing?  Sure.  But how many times throughout the course of the books did they mention his bare upper lip?  Why not give him that look for the show?  This is, again, indicative that either someone doesn’t really care about the source material or that someone thinks they can craft a better story with better characters than Jordan.

 

Did you know, by the way, that wanders can be bisexual?  Rafe doesn’t care too much about crafting a consistent narrative around things like the One Power but he is certainly going to make sure you’re clear on Aes Sendai sexual preferences.  We were reminded repeatedly, first with Egwene walking in on Alanna with her warders, much like that scene in the book, then with Nyneve training with the warders and having a conversation about love, much like that scene in the book, and then Alanna having a talk with Egwene about how to have a threesome, much like that scene in the book….

 

And while I’m on that topic, the warder saying “you always make me feel like the third wheel” was the whiniest, most passive beta male delivery of a line I’ve ever heard, so much so that it was hilarious.

 

So Moiraine is stilled.  That makes total sense.  Don’t worry, though, she can still kill a Fade.  Never mind that she’s about 5’ tall and 100lbs with little to no recent martial training and a recent loss of an ability she relied on for everything, she’s been carrying water so she can easily take out a creature that even warders don’t want to fight with just a dagger…

 

Mat got about 5 seconds in the show but the new actor seems a decent replacement.  If I had closed my eyes and listened to his speech pattern I might have thought it was the same actor.

 

For a show that is supposedly cutting back on the number of episodes while simultaneously squeezing more books into each season, not much happened in this episode.

 

Can we just skip to the part where “Ten Times Stronger” Nynaeve saves the planet?

 

Edit:  Good grief does autocorrect butcher anything I try to write about this series.  Sorry if you slogged through all that…

Edited September 1, 2023 by Mirefox

[Vosha]

3 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

So Moiraine is stilled.  That makes total sense. 

 

She's not though?  I feel like they've made this obvious to anyone familiar with the books. 

[Mirefox]

2 minutes ago, Vosha said:

 

She's not though?  I feel like they've made this obvious to anyone familiar with the books. 

How so?  I’ve seen no hints she’s just shielded.  I think they’ve given her the worst fate possible outside death so that later they can have Nynaeve heal her.  That will resonate with viewers more that with a character like Siuan that viewers don’t know all that well.

[SinisterDeath]

34 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Did you know, by the way, that wanders can be bisexual?  Rafe doesn’t care too much about crafting a consistent narrative around things like the One Power but he is certainly going to make sure you’re clear on Aes Sendai sexual preferences.  We were reminded repeatedly, first with Egwene walking in on Alanna with her warders, much like that scene in the book, then with Nyneve training with the warmers and having a conversation about love, much like that scene in the book, and then Alanna having a talk with Egwene about how to have a threesome, much like that scene in the book….

 

And while I’m on that topic, the warden saying “you always make me feel like the third wheel” was the whiniest, most passive beta male delivery of a line I’ve ever heard, so much so that it was hilarious.

 

Are you trollin' us with those various spellings?

 

  

24 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

How so?  I’ve seen no hints she’s just shielded.  I think they’ve given her the worst fate possible outside death so that later they can have Nynaeve heal her.  That will resonate with viewers more that with a character like Siuan that viewers don’t know all that well.

Book 5 Chapter 34. Read what Moghedien did to Liandrin. Read her words, then listen to what Ishy did to Moiraine in Season 1, Episode 8.

Then consider Lan's words to Moiraine. "It takes 8 Aes Sedai still a man..."

[Mirefox]

3 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Are you trollin' us with those various spellings?

 

  

Book 5 Chapter 34. Read what Moghedien did to Liandrin. Read her words, then listen to what Ishy did to Moiraine in Season 1, Episode 8.

Then consider Lan's words to Moiraine. "It takes 8 Aes Sedai still a man..."

Ha.  I just tried to edit my post a bit.  Autocorrect absolutely destroyed me, there.

[Mirefox]

4 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Are you trollin' us with those various spellings?

 

  

Book 5 Chapter 34. Read what Moghedien did to Liandrin. Read her words, then listen to what Ishy did to Moiraine in Season 1, Episode 8.

Then consider Lan's words to Moiraine. "It takes 8 Aes Sedai still a man..."

You dive deep into the books to give corollary and reasons why she might not be stilled.  The entire show began with Liandrin saying that every time a male channels he taints the One Power and then proceeded to play fast and loose with the rules governing it’s nature and it’s use.  Until the writers surprise me and prove me wrong, I’m going to go with Occam’s Razor and assume she’s stilled and further assume it was done to set up Nynaeve’s abilities.

[Vosha]

27 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

How so?  I’ve seen no hints she’s just shielded.  I think they’ve given her the worst fate possible outside death so that later they can have Nynaeve heal her.  That will resonate with viewers more that with a character like Siuan that viewers don’t know all that well.

 

The first hint is the visual of what happened to her, which mirrors the shield on Logain.  The second is that this visual doesn't match what we saw when Logain was gentled.  A third would be the wording used by both her and Ishy about being able to sense it, but there being a barrier in the way.  The visual is the biggest for me, but the other two make it pretty definitive.  We also know that you can tie off a shield and that it will dissipate over time.  Honestly, it's hard to imagine it being anything but shielding.  They're keeping it ambiguous for the non-readers because it's dramatic, but it seems pretty clear to me.

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Mirefox said:

You dive deep into the books to give corollary and reasons why she might not be stilled.  

It's not a deep dive.
Go read that one scene and come back.

[Samt]

My struggle with believing that Moiraine is shielded and not stilled is that we get no indication that Moiraine doesn't think she is stilled.  Aes Sedai practice shielding each other to learn how to do it.  Thus, Moiraine would have experience being shielded.  How does she not know that she is shielded?

[Storeebooq]

51 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Did you know, by the way, that wanders can be bisexual?  Rafe doesn’t care too much about crafting a consistent narrative around things like the One Power but he is certainly going to make sure you’re clear on Aes Sendai sexual preferences.  We were reminded repeatedly, first with Egwene walking in on Alanna with her warders, much like that scene in the book, then with Nyneve training with the warders and having a conversation about love, much like that scene in the book, and then Alanna having a talk with Egwene about how to have a threesome, much like that scene in the book….

 

And while I’m on that topic, the warder saying “you always make me feel like the third wheel” was the whiniest, most passive beta male delivery of a line I’ve ever heard, so much so that it was hilarious.

As a queer person, it's been pretty great to see this kind of banter and chat in the show. RJ had plenty of this when he talked about Green sisters and multiple warders, plus other instances. It was just very straight-centric and heteronormative. This is more honest, and as someone who is well experienced with polyamorous relationships, it is all very spot on. 

Including the "whiny" comment about being third-wheel. Which I read less as "whiny" (won't even touch your 'beta-male' comment), and more as an honest complaint that can come out when you're having a very casual conversation about relationships. Here is a man who is among the a group of the world's best fighters, and he still has vulnerable emotions he is willing to express. That's awesome and what we need to see more of when it comes to representation of men. 

[Storeebooq]

4 minutes ago, Samt said:

My struggle with believing that Moiraine is shielded and not stilled is that we get no indication that Moiraine doesn't think she is stilled.  Aes Sedai practice shielding each other to learn how to do it.  Thus, Moiraine would have experience being shielded.  How does she not know that she is shielded?

I wonder if this relates to it being a shield woven with Saidin rather than Saidar. She can't sense the weaves, though she can obv sense the effect. So, she may be unsure what has happened. She could also be acting closed mouth about it, like she does almost everything else. Oh Moraine. 

I think the problem, and it might be on purpose, is that they have not given us an example of a person who has been stilled or gentled and then explicitly talking about what it feels like in relation to the One Power. We haven't had Logain, for example, say whether or not he can sense the One Power "just beyond reach". 

I think this is a deliberate ploy on the writer's part. 

[SinisterDeath]

11 minutes ago, Samt said:

My struggle with believing that Moiraine is shielded and not stilled is that we get no indication that Moiraine doesn't think she is stilled.  Aes Sedai practice shielding each other to learn how to do it.  Thus, Moiraine would have experience being shielded.  How does she not know that she is shielded?

In practical terms, there is no difference.

Shielded or Stilled you can still feel the source and not touch it. (This is why the depression from being stilled is so bad. It's like being a drug addict, constantly seeing your addiction just out of reach... at the tip of your tongue)

Now in the books, obviously if you took the 3 oaths, those would be broken. You would lose the ageless property. (Show doesn't have that - Even in the books, this happens so rarely, no one seems to even know that the oaths cause the ageless appearance. They believe it's the one power...)

I'm not sure how this affects the warder bond if you're stilled. I'm not sure if we get an example of this in the book. We know what happens if you're stilled... or through a ter'angrael in another world when it melts and the bond is forcibly passed to another...

[DojoToad]

8 minutes ago, Samt said:

My struggle with believing that Moiraine is shielded and not stilled is that we get no indication that Moiraine doesn't think she is stilled.  Aes Sedai practice shielding each other to learn how to do it.  Thus, Moiraine would have experience being shielded.  How does she not know that she is shielded?

Because a man did it?

[Vosha]

13 minutes ago, Samt said:

My struggle with believing that Moiraine is shielded and not stilled is that we get no indication that Moiraine doesn't think she is stilled.  Aes Sedai practice shielding each other to learn how to do it.  Thus, Moiraine would have experience being shielded.  How does she not know that she is shielded?

Yes, but *gesticulates wildly at images showing that what happened to Moiraine looks almost exactly like what happened when Logain was shielded*.  Am I crazy here? 

 

Also, not only has she never been shielded by Saidin as someone pointed out below, she's never had a shield even remotely as powerful as this one placed on her.  Though she knows how powerful Ishy is in theory, the practical reality of that may be throwing her for a loop. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Vosha

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, Vosha said:

Yes, but *gesticulates wildly at images showing that what happened to Moiraine looks exactly like what happened when Logain was shielded*.  Am I crazy here? 

 

Also, not only has she never been shielded by Saidin as someone pointed out below, she's never had a shield even remotely as powerful as this one placed on her.  Though she knows how powerful Ishy is in theory, the practical reality of that may be throwing her for a loop. 

And in this spinning of the wheel, perhaps "tied off weaves" is something Aes Sedai never learned...
Just like in the books "inverted" weaves is something not everyone knew about. 

[DigificWriter]

The writers are crafting Moiraine's story as if she's been Stilled; whether or not that ends up being the truth is something audiences will have to watch in order to find out, but for now, the characters are treating it as truth because they believe it to be truth.

[Samt]

28 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Because a man did it?

The lore is unrecognizable at this point so anything is possible, but this is not at all consistent with the way it works in the books.  Channelers can tell the difference between shielding and severing and this is not dependent on which half of the one power is shielding them.  

[swollymammoth]

2 hours ago, Storeebooq said:

As a queer person, it's been pretty great to see this kind of banter and chat in the show. RJ had plenty of this when he talked about Green sisters and multiple warders, plus other instances. It was just very straight-centric and heteronormative. This is more honest, and as someone who is well experienced with polyamorous relationships, it is all very spot on. 

Read: "Seeing my preferred political opinions on TV > fidelity to source material." 

 

Got it. While we're at it, why doesn't Rafe make the Whitecloaks the good guys to appeal to all the Catholics in the audience? Does he not care about how hurt Catholic people might feel when the closest analog to themselves the show has to offer are presented as villains? Smh. 

[Elder_Haman]

3 hours ago, nsmallw said:

I really enjoy your take on the show, EH.   Are you going to give your review of season two  episodes?

Thanks! Yes. I definitely will.

But I got home from a long, not great, day at work yesterday. Didn't start watching until fairly late (for me) and just wasn't as engaged with the show as I wanted to be. By the time I'd finished E2, I was too tired and decided to call it a night.

 

I'm going to give it another watch tonight when my synapses are firing better. My initial impressions were mostly positive though. 

[Agitel]

28 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Read: "Seeing my preferred political opinions on TV > fidelity to source material." 

 

Got it. While we're at it, why doesn't Rafe make the Whitecloaks the good guys to appeal to all the Catholics in the audience? Does he not care about how hurt Catholic people might feel when the closest analog to themselves the show has to offer are presented as villains? Smh. 

As a Catholic I find your comparison to the White Cloaks offensive, but you know...

[Agitel]

I've only seen S2E1 so far. How much mileage you get out of it is going to depend on what bothered you (if anything) from season one. I'm very pleased with significant improvements to production, from the writing and cinematography and costuming. There were a lot of complaints about the first season feeling like a young adult CW show, and I did not get that at all from this episode.

 

If your complaints were about how the story is being distilled into episodes, then I think people will be disappointed. I wrote earlier today that ultimately Rafe has to plot this show to fit into far less episodes than it would take to make a high fidelity adaptation. That's just a fact of the matter. I was pleased with the interpretation of characters. Perrin being the one to write letters, and him holding onto his wedding ring both felt very "Perrin" to me. I'm curious how they'll go about reintegrating Mat into the plot. The red ajah/Liandrin capture was predicted, but I wasn't counting on it.

 

I'm excited to see where this goes. I like the episode a lot more than the trailers. It exceeded my low expectations.

[Storeebooq]

39 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Read: "Seeing my preferred political opinions on TV > fidelity to source material." 

 

Got it. While we're at it, why doesn't Rafe make the Whitecloaks the good guys to appeal to all the Catholics in the audience? Does he not care about how hurt Catholic people might feel when the closest analog to themselves the show has to offer are presented as villains? Smh. 

*yawns*